What would you do in this situation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Ok. The other night me and my GF had a great night with dinner and a movie. After the movie she got in the car and said she smelled girls perfume. I smelled all around inside and out of the car and couldn't smell anything. There hasn't been another human being in my car other than me and her in months. She said... .It smells so strong, like girls perfume in here. Did you have anyone in your car today? I just said... .No, there hasn't been any guys or girls in months in my car which is completely true.

She actually said... .Ok babe I believe you and went on. I tried really hard no act completely natural but as we were driving home she kept asking what was wrong so I told her... .I just really don't like when you have to ask those questions. Im 100% faithful to you and those kind of questions just bother me. I get questions like that almost every day and it just makes me uncomfortable.

She got quiet and asked me to stop at the store. I did. She got out and walked away from me purposely going to a different entrance. I asked if she was ok. She said she just wanted to be alone. I let her go and did my own thing until she got back. When she did get back I asked if she was upset and she said... .It was just a question. Its a normal question and nothing wrong with me asking you if you had someone in your car. Why cant you just answer? You know I am insecure about you and you should think about my feelings and not get upset with me for asking a simple question. I explained that those questions just make me feel bad all the time and it sucks knowing she really doesn't trust me at all. We went back and forth until we started raising voices. I was about a mile from the house and she said stop the car and jumped out and started walking down the street by herself late at night.

I hated her walking by herself and its not safe but I thought to myself that she is testing me a lot and this is a good time to show her I wont take manipulation or abuse. I drove away and let her walk home herself. I was so sick thinking about if something could happen to her but I kept telling myself that she made this choice and she put herself in that position. Let her do what she wants even if it is stupid.

What would you do? Do you think this is the proper way to set a boundary? She has done this before I knew about BPD and I chased and tried to protect her. We were at a huge new years eve gathering in downtown and she tried to run away from me because she was upset I wasn't holding her hand. It was freezing and I had my hands in my jacket to keep warm. She got so pissed and went running through the crowds trying to get away from me and saying I don't care about her etc... .At that time I chased her for 30 minutes trying to calm her down. When I would try to hold her she would scream and I had to let her go because people were asking me to "let the lady go".

[jrharvey]

Ok. The other night me and my GF had a great night with dinner and a movie. After the movie she got in the car and said she smelled girls perfume. I smelled all around inside and out of the car and couldn't smell anything. There hasn't been another human being in my car other than me and her in months. She said... .It smells so strong, like girls perfume in here. Did you have anyone in your car today? I just said... .No, there hasn't been any guys or girls in months in my car which is completely true.

She actually said... .Ok babe I believe you and went on. I tried really hard no act completely natural but as we were driving home she kept asking what was wrong so I told her... .I just really don't like when you have to ask those questions. Im 100% faithful to you and those kind of questions just bother me. I get questions like that almost every day and it just makes me uncomfortable.

She got quiet and asked me to stop at the store. I did. She got out and walked away from me purposely going to a different entrance. I asked if she was ok. She said she just wanted to be alone. I let her go and did my own thing until she got back. When she did get back I asked if she was upset and she said... .It was just a question. Its a normal question and nothing wrong with me asking you if you had someone in your car. Why cant you just answer? You know I am insecure about you and you should think about my feelings and not get upset with me for asking a simple question. I explained that those questions just make me feel bad all the time and it sucks knowing she really doesn't trust me at all. We went back and forth until we started raising voices. I was about a mile from the house and she said stop the car and jumped out and started walking down the street by herself late at night.

I hated her walking by herself and its not safe but I thought to myself that she is testing me a lot and this is a good time to show her I wont take manipulation or abuse. I drove away and let her walk home herself. I was so sick thinking about if something could happen to her but I kept telling myself that she made this choice and she put herself in that position. Let her do what she wants even if it is stupid.

What would you do? Do you think this is the proper way to set a boundary? She has done this before I knew about BPD and I chased and tried to protect her. We were at a huge new years eve gathering in downtown and she tried to run away from me because she was upset I wasn't holding her hand. It was freezing and I had my hands in my jacket to keep warm. She got so pissed and went running through the crowds trying to get away from me and saying I don't care about her etc... .At that time I chased her for 30 minutes trying to calm her down. When I would try to hold her she would scream and I had to let her go because people were asking me to "let the lady go".

[Herodias]

I don't miss that stuff... .I would have done the same thing as you. What are you supposed to do... .your damned if you do, damned if you don't. It is scary to let someone walk alone, but better than to be driving and fighting. I will not be surprised if she now starts telling you that you don't care about her, because you didn't chase her and made her walk... .yes, I said that right. Don't fall for it, don't argue about it. Tell her that she made the decision to get out of the car and walk... .you didn't want to over step her boundary and disrespect her... .That will confuse her. That's a better place to be than feeling bad and proving yourself. None of this is any good. You are caught up in drama... .You have to choose not to be caught up in it unless you are getting something out of it too. I would also not fall for the sniffing around the car for perfume. You know you didn't have anyone in the car, then don't bother. She just got a big reaction out of you and probably enjoyed it. It's really hard to be with these people sometimes... .You have to brush it all off and forget it, the problem is, that is hard to do.

[HopefulDad]

What would I do in this situation?  Besides light myself on fire?

She's really worth all this, huh?  Great date followed by some phantom perfume and the car ride home from hell?  How things can do a 180 on a dime?

Accept this: She will NEVER change.  Any change to make this more palatable must come from you and you only.  Just decide what you are willing to live with.

Edit: To answer your specific question... .Despite the disorder, you still have to respect her as an adult.  If she insists on getting out of the car, let her out.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey JRH, In my view, it's all drama, as Herodias notes.  If you participate in the drama, you're only perpetuating an unhealthy dynamic designed to manipulate you.  I suggest that you practice detachment by declining to participate in this sort of behavior.  I'd say you handled the walking episode fairly well.  The second prong of detachment is refusing to accept the blame that she will attempt to shift to you.  Of course she's going to say that you don't care because you didn't chase her, because that's the way she set it up, so it's more or less a Lose/Lose proposition for you.  In her mind, she's "testing" your loyalty, which is obviously unreasonable and irrational when you have been 100% faithful, but that's BPD for you!  When I caved in and engaged in these mini-dramas w/my BPDxW, I usually had a funny feeling in the pit of my stomach that something was inauthentic about my behavior, but I lacked the ability back then to figure out why I had those gut-level physical reactions.  My suggestion: listen to your gut!  It knows when you are being manipulated.

LuckyJim

[jrharvey]

Surprisingly she didn't try to blame me or say I didn't care about her. Later that night she actually said that she felt stupid walking back by herself and wondered why the hell she made such a fuss over nothing. She then went on to say she doesn't understand why she does the things she does and started crying. She said she just gets these jealous feelings and wants them to stop but she is out of control and doesn't know how to stop the feelings.

My therapist said its probably more manipulation. Making it sound like she is the victim of her own messed up feelings. Trying to say its not her fault she acts this way. "Oh I hate that I do that but my feelings made me do it". That kinda thing.

Honestly Im not sure. She was pretty believable. I know I have done some stuff in the past and wonder now... .why do I do those things! I know I still do some things and my emotions get the best of me and I wonder, how could I let myself act that way? So its hard to say what is real and what is manipulation.

[Lucky Jim]

To me, her ability to self-reflect on her behavior (e.g., she felt stupid walking back and wondered why she did it) is progress.  Let's back up and observe that your unwillingness to participate in the drama is what brought about this change.  So you handled it well, I would say, by establishing a firm boundary when it comes to manipulation on her part.  Also, her acknowledgment that she is driven to certain behavior due to her overwhelming feelings is amazing to me, coming from a pwBPD.  Your T has a point, perhaps, though I see it more as an honest description of what happens rather than as manipulation.

LuckyJim

[jrharvey]

To me, her ability to self-reflect on her behavior (e.g., she felt stupid walking back and wondered why she did it) is progress.  Let's back up and observe that your unwillingness to participate in the drama is what brought about this change.  So you handled it well, I would say, by establishing a firm boundary when it comes to manipulation on her part.  Also, her acknowledgment that she is driven to certain behavior due to her overwhelming feelings is amazing to me, coming from a pwBPD.  Your T has a point, perhaps, though I see it more as an honest description of what happens rather than as manipulation.

LuckyJim

You have no idea. I have never heard her talk that way before. Its almost weird. In the past she would definitely turn it on me and talk about how bad of a boyfriend I am letting her walk home by herself. I'm happy she said that but I'm not going to get too excited about it. Her mood will change maybe 2 days from now. She triggers pretty regularly now. I hope she is sincere about changing.

[formflier]

I think a healthy prescription of  "don't take the bait" is in order.

Here is the thing... .we all know where the question is going.  Your job is to slow things down, understand it's not about you, and put it back where it belongs.  Another analogy is to take gas off the fire... .vice putting it on.

"I smell perfume in the car... "

you... "Oh... .cool... is it one that you like... ."

nonchalant is the key...  :)on't go anywhere with it unless she goes first.

":)id you have someone in the car... ."

relax... .slight concern...  "no... say... .this sounds really important to you.  Can you help me understand where the question is coming from?"  (see how you hand it back to her)

You are thinking validation and toning it down.  "How is smelling perfume concerning... ?  I want to understand you... .I'm here for you"

go from there.  

FF

[HopefulDad]

She said she just gets these jealous feelings and wants them to stop but she is out of control and doesn't know how to stop the feelings.

My therapist said its probably more manipulation. Making it sound like she is the victim of her own messed up feelings. Trying to say its not her fault she acts this way. "Oh I hate that I do that but my feelings made me do it". That kinda thing.

Your GF appears to have had a moment of clarity and your T appears to have let cynicism set in.  That being said, your T is right in that your GF doesn't get a free pass to act like she does.  She has to own her issues.

That's important for you to understand, too.  Yes, your GF struggles with her feelings and how her thoughts and actions derive from them.  However, that's no excuse for the non-stop accusations of cheating and the outbursts that accompany them.  Of course there is NOTHING you can do to help her with this until she decides she wants to help herself.  That goes far beyond momentary acknowledgement.

[jrharvey]

I think I am starting to get it. There is nothing I can do to actually change her. The only thing I can do is set a boundary, hold it and let her decide what she wants. She can decide to leave and find another person to abuse or decide to change. Im starting to understand that words mean nothing. I can tell her how much I am hurting by her actions all day but it wont help. Only my physical absence will show her I have had enough of this.

[HopefulDad]

Only my physical absence will show her I have had enough of this.

Actually, she very likely will think you're a jerk for leaving her.  But you know what?  You can't control how she'll read the situation so don't waste a single breath explaining it to her.  I think you're finding this out in your other interactions.

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, JRH.  Yes, you're getting it!  Right, you didn't cause her to get BPD, you can't change her and you can't cure it.  You can only control your own behavior, which means setting boundaries and standing firm.  Then, let the chips fall.  Good luck!  LJ

[Icanteven]

What would you do?

For starters, I wouldn't drop my girlfriend off a mile from home on the side of the road in the dark in the middle of the night.  Nothing to stop you from saying "I won't do that but I will take you home."  Not engaging doesn't mean absconding. 

Have you ever asked open-ended questions about why she's so insecure that you're cheating on her?  Not a one and done, but really explored the issue with her?  Tried to find out the root cause?

Finally, this is who she is.  Is that what you want?  I really, truly get that there are relationships where the good times are so good that you deal with the bad times, but at least in my situation the bad times eventually engulfed (sorry, bad pun) the good times till there were no good times.  Maybe your situation will turn out differently, but what are you going to do to see that it does?

[jrharvey]

Have you ever asked open-ended questions about why she's so insecure that you're cheating on her?  Not a one and done, but really explored the issue with her?  Tried to find out the root cause?

Her father was a serial cheater. He spent a lot of money on prostitutes when she was a child. He went out all the time and he always promised to change but never did. She thought he changed the last 10 years or so but he just got caught having another affair a week ago. Her brothers are also big cheaters. She moved away from her family when she was in college and lived with her aunt/uncle. Her uncle attempted to sexually abuse her but it sounds like she moved out of the state before he could do anything. Her last serious boyfriend cheated on her.

I understand why she is so obsessed but it doesn't make things better. Its like when abusers say they abuse you because they were abused as a child. You can sympathize with them but it doesn't make the abuse ok.

[Icanteven]

I understand why she is so obsessed but it doesn't make things better.

So you understand her and wow that's a lot for anyone to work through.  So, when she brings it up, do you articulate to her that you understand why she'd have her doubts?  And that you're going to show her every day that you're not them?  Maybe you're already validating the hell out of her and it's not working, but this isn't her talking about the sky being purple and wanting validation, it's some serious shiz that's happened to her throughout her life that would affect anyone. 

[formflier]

Car safety:

Good on you for being the driver.  Stay that way.  That way you are in control of st[/b]opping, turning off car and walking away.

Don't have enough info to say if what you did was right or wrong.  It's all opinion anyway.

But I will say that when you are dealing with a dysregulation (argument... whatever you want to call it) in a moving vehicle you have a serious safety issue on your hands

Personal experience:  I have pulled over several times and dealt with an argument.  In the far away past I would try to keep driving, and had some scary close calls.  Now... .zero tolerance in the vehicle.  I pull over.  Once or twice I shut off vehicle, took keys and walked away.

If it was me: I would have tried to stop responding or said that I would rather take her home.  If she is getting more upset I would have pulled over and let her out.  If I feared for her safety, 911 call is in order.

Hang in there.

FF

[jrharvey]

Maybe you're already validating the hell out of her and it's not working

This. I spent a lot of time being validating and compassionate. I spent a lot of time trying to make her feel better. She used it to take my freedom away one by one. She would get jealous and flip out if I went out with friends so I stopped. I stopped seeing all friends because she felt so insecure. She wanted to me tell her EVERY SINGLE text I got. Not just girls but also guys. I agreed thinking it would help her but it only gave her a reason to flip out when I forgot or I didn't tell her quick enough. Now I have told her I refuse to tell her any time someone text me because she uses it as ammunition to abuse.

She felt insecure and wanted to know every single location I was at. If I went to the store, gym or gas station she would flip out if I didn't tell her or send her pictures she would flip out and say I could be having sex with some girls or meeting up with someone or something like that. Even If I try to reassure her that is not happening she would just say... Who knows?

I installed a GPS tracker on our phones so she could see my location at all times without me having to tell her every single place but it doesn't really help her. One time the app wasn't working and it showed me as being at home when I was at work. She thought that I had hacked the app to not work and I was off doing something wrong. Even though I showed her videos that I was at work and we talked on the phone for an HOUR she was absolutely nuts and saying all this crazy stuff about how I could have done it on purpose and stuff like that.

I actually handed her my freedom on a silver plate and she used it to abuse me even more. I realized that her being so controlling over everything was actually abusive and I started trying to put a stop to it and setting more boundaries. My goal is to get it to a healthy place where we both have a NON TOXIC relationship. Everything about our relationship is toxic and Im trying to use boundaries to at least let her know my rules and expectations.

[GaGrl]

Just understand that there is no logic behind the jealous behaviors; they are not being driven from a place in her mind of rational thought, cause/effect, etc.

My DH's ex-wife (uNPD/BPD) engaged in serial affairs from about 18 months into the marriage.  At a Christmas party, five months pregnant with a child that DH was 99% sure was NOT his, she became jealous and stormed out of the party and drove her car into a ditch several miles down the road.  So safety is a very real concern when they are dysregulated with a car involved.

[formflier]

Jharvey

I commend you for your insight.  You have half of the battle won.

I would recommend making a list of boundaries that you want to erect.  We can help you prioritize. 

FF

[jrharvey]

Just understand that there is no logic behind the jealous behaviors; they are not being driven from a place in her mind of rational thought, cause/effect, etc.

My DH's ex-wife (uNPD/BPD) engaged in serial affairs from about 18 months into the marriage.  At a Christmas party, five months pregnant with a child that DH was 99% sure was NOT his, she became jealous and stormed out of the party and drove her car into a ditch several miles down the road.  So safety is a very real concern when they are dysregulated with a car involved.

So wait. She was cheating like crazy but got jealous of her husband and endangered her baby by crashing into the ditch? She was the one cheating but she was crazy jealous?

[formflier]

See note from someone else about about not making rational sense.

My wife has accused me of all sorts of misdeeds... .then usually she actually does it.  Luckily for me, that is usually the end of that particular "kind" of accusation.

Maybe not the best example... .but my wife has accused me of looking at other women, wanting them... .thinking about them, seeking out images of them... .(so... .watching a video for sole purpose of seeing the woman).

Well... .out of nowhere... she emails me a picture of a naked woman.  We were in couples counseling at the time and I made a big stink about it.  Counselor was a woman as well.  I made it clear that I have no interest in my wife providing me images of other women, or telling me theories of me an other women.  Most of the weird sex stuff in my head (thoughts) about other woman, are there because my wife put them there.

And... .it kinda worked.  Those types of accusations stopped.  I'm sure the bad energy has gone somewhere else... .

Anyway... it doesn't make a lick of sense... .don't try to make it make sense.

FF

[Oncebitten]

jrharvey

I can say that from experience with my own gf when we have a conflict things go more smoothly and are resolved faster when I set a boundary and hold it firmly... .the idea of treating them like a child who is upset is the easiest way I have come to view it.  They get mad and cant control their emotions.  you can just beat a toddler for throwing a fit, but you can refuse to feed into the fit.  remind them that you love them and you are here for them when they calm down.   my only problem is my gf will twist my words against me in a way that a toddler is incapable of.

[sas1729]

Hey JRH,

When I read your story about NYE and her running away I nearly cringed. It reminded me a lot of a lesser but similar instance I experienced with my exBPDgf. I dated her for 2.5 years, and in reading your posts in the thread I remembered pretty much being in the same "spot" as you in accepting what happens in the relationship.

I ended my relationship after 2.5 years. I'll give you a few details about it as an option for you to compare notes with. Needless to say, my outlook isn't very hopeful. Yes, getting to a state where the relationship is nontoxic is fundamental. But, and let me just play devil's advocate here, shouldn't a nontoxic relationship be the minimal expectation for even considering it?

I worked for two years to bring us to a state where the daily workings of the relationship would be normal. I was naive and believed that an absence of an argument was a good relationship. In order to get there I had to give up pieces of my identity - friends, family, hobbies, things that made me *me*. I told myself yes, there is compromise in a relationship. There is, but you shouldn't have to lose your identity. After all, your partner loves you for you.

The other approach is to simply put up enough boundaries where things become taboo to discuss. That could include "lying by omission". Suppose you do manage to establish a boundary with your partner checking in to see where you are. All right, so that stops, but you may know that she would be upset if you were hanging out with friends. So you still see your friends, but fail to mention it. That's what I did, at least.

I did the above things until one day I couldn't recognise who I had become. And, the fighting never stopped. Although I had trained myself to operate as per her ideals, even that was not good enough. My main message is that you deserve to respect yourself, be yourself, and be with someone that feels the same way about you.