Acting-in borderline | discouraged borderline | quiet borderline

[livednlearned]

I am in some shock and sadness to be posting about another person with BPD in my life.

I was married to a man with BPD/bipolar, and have a son who has some traits (he's been diagnosed ADHD/ODD, anxiety + depression, and more recently OCD). This is not my first rodeo, as it were.  

And now, I'm living with my partner's daughter (19) who is diagnosed bipolar and has 6 of 9 criteria for BPD. My partner was married to a woman he suspects is BPD, and they are now divorced. My partner is self-aware and motivated to grow, while at the same time he (like me) is used to appeasing people in order to avoid conflict. We're both working on this. When it comes to D19, he has his head in the sand a bit, or at least is reluctant to remove his head. Actually, it's more like he has asked me to please not rush him to remove his head and I'm trying to accept that while focusing on change at the same time.  

I don't hear as much about quiet borderlines or "discouraged" borderlines (a term I came across as one sub-type), which is how I would describe D19. It's made me realize how very different BPD can present depending on other diagnoses and underlying personality traits.

Anyone else have someone like this in their life?

She has what my T describes as "masked emotions," where her face goes completely blank, her eyes go lifeless, she will talk in a monotone. She also has a processing issue so her responses are often delayed.

I've never experienced anyone this needy. Having her come stay here threw my partner and I into couples therapy to try and sort out our own stuff, and after being here for several years and having BPD in my life before, feeling like I understood things, I had to do more searching and adjust to this new dynamic. It's still a work in progress.

D19 is transgender (female to male) and when she first arrived, she would constantly hold her dad's hand, and even if I was physically touching him or cuddling with him on the couch, she would drape herself over him and try to get a hug. She will run to the door when he comes home to hug him, sometimes grabbing him tight like a toddler, before he even has a chance to set his things down, and the hugs (at least initially) can go on for several minutes which sure looks like eternity when two non-romantic people hug like that dozens of times a day. I never thought I would ever complain about people hugging, but there you go.

It feels like a combination of her being a third spouse rolled up with her being a toddler.  

Here's the thing I notice, now that I have a pwBPD in my life who is not necessarily a family member, making it easier to see the dynamics, I guess.

When I am able to be compassionate and identify her competence in a meaningful way, she matures, almost before my eyes. Yet, when her dad is around, and he (for example) instructs her or gives her unsolicited advice, she turns into a 7 year old right in front of us, like she's on a teeter totter, adjusting her unstable self to whatever opposite role is presented to her through us.

I also notice, too, how memory works for her, to maybe help explain why it is so baffling to have a conversation that seems normal, only to learn later that a bomb went off. It's like she latches on to the most intense feeling during the conversation -- usually something about inadequacy -- and then reconstructs the conversation around that feeling. Where I remember how the conversation was presented, what we saw while walking, what I said, what she said, she remembers it from the perspective of that one feeling and everything else is brushed away.

I was thinking about this when I was having dinner with some friends who all knew each other. When I sat down, a fleeting sense of insecurity went through my head, worrying that I would be left out of the conversation. But I was able to brush it aside and focus on getting to know them, etc. For D19, in situations like that, even if she is able to have a good time, she will remember only the worst that she felt, and then she'll start adding details to it, to back it up.

One day she went to a dance class to see an old teacher she liked in high school, someone who teaches the class. She came home and her mood was shut down. I asked her to go for a walk and her emotions were masked and she seemed a million miles away, so I stopped and told her I admired her for doing something brave, that it would be hard for me to do that, because it's a new situation and dancing is very vulnerable. It was like that sentence counter-acted the process of making this other negative memory about how ungainly she is, how awkward she felt, how no one likes her, etc. Her mood changed with that interaction, and every time she goes, it's like a little kid looking for praise and attention. "I'm going to my dance class because I'm a brave girl." She actually says that exact sentence.  

There are good moments. There are also a lot of challenging moments. She leaves in 2 weeks and then it's back to just one child with challenging traits  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lar, laris]

Dear livednlearned,

Yes, it appears that you have more than your share of challenges... .but also such a compassionate heart and a wealth of knowledge that you insightfully bring so frequently to those of us who are also struggling to make sense of and live into realationships with pwBPD.  I find myself looking for your posts because you have so much insight about the malady that you bring forward into insightful questions.  Thank you so much, lnl!   

I am pretty much brand spankin' new to this, and have very little to offer, but I can relate to this:

"I don't hear as much about quiet borderlines or "discouraged" borderlines (a term I came across as one sub-type), which is how I would describe D19. It's made me realize how very different BPD can present depending on other diagnoses and underlying personality traits.

Anyone else have someone like this in their life?

She has what my T describes as "masked emotions," where her face goes completely blank, her eyes go lifeless, she will talk in a monotone. She also has a processing issue so her responses are often delayed."


My loved one demonstrates a lot of this.  In fact, I thought he was schizoid quite some time because he "interiorizes," sublimates, deflects, so much ... .and his eyes and vocal patters are often what you describe, particularly when he is emotionally vulnerable.

He also appears to have "delayed reactions" to whatever he reacts to emotionally, so that his labile-ablity (word?) can display itself hours or even days later... .

I also find that with my LO, finding areas or pockets of competence to relate to, really helps.  I know that my guy (who, before I understood what he suffers from, and of course with his knowledge, I'd sometimes refer to as "Eyore" can often appear down, dejected, removed, "out of it," precisely when he is most triggered.

Anyway, just wanted to reach out and respond to what I can right now.  Thanks again for being such a help to all of us here... .  I am also still learning to share in detail the challenges I am dealing with, and seeing so many here both helping others and being honest about what they still find challenging in their own situations, is really noteworthy to an emotional "stuffer" like me. 

My thoughts are with you, livednlearned.


lar, laris

[wendydarling]

Hi livednlearned

My understanding is the sticky sticker of  'Borderline Personality Disorder' is a very broad family umbrella, a name for a wide range of disorders, our children are unique. We all search for understanding where our loved ones sit so we can understand and then help them.

I have made the assumption (my 27 yr daughter is an adult so I'm not party to her medics) my daughter is a quiet borderline and this sits well from the conversations I have had with other members. Earlier this year I sent a call to members to see who was a parent of a quiet BPD, what sets us apart? Three responses. Is it that rare?

My 27 daughter does not rage against me, family and friends, no blame, she accepts her diagnosis, takes responsibility and appreciates the support. That said she is still fragile, we will have challenges and hopefully less crisis. Lollypop's son is also quiet and they have a different journey to ours, despite that I really understand where they are and relate to all LP's posts and her son.

I'm thinking LNL, will come back to you.

Wdx

[Icanteven]

I don't hear as much about quiet borderlines or "discouraged" borderlines... .Anyone else have someone like this in their life?

This is my wife.  The first psychiatrist I ran into asked me if she had ever been diagnosed as a borderline within five minutes, and warned me that not all borderlines are the Glenn Close (which didn't mean anything to me since I had never heard of BPD at that moment and never saw Fatal Attraction) variety; that she would sublimate her rage around me into anxiety, depression, self-harm, and self-defeating behaviors.  And, that there would be folks she wouldn't bother sublimating that rage around so long as they weren't a primary object.  IOW, a lot of people got it with both barrels and were amazed, to the point that they would literally write me thank you notes about how calm wifey was when I was around. I didn't get it because I was an unreliable narrator in that I didn't see the rages  so I had no frame of reference.

She has what my T describes as "masked emotions," where her face goes completely blank, her eyes go lifeless, she will talk in a monotone.

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about.  The "robot" mode she would go into was the scariest facet of her illness for me outside of SI and self-harm, because I had no idea if she was going to hurt herself, hurt us, or have a psychotic break (spoiler alert; she did!).  Also, what was so amazing to me was that the robot only came out after she got into DBT; we had known each other all those years and I had never seen her dissociate like that until psychotherapy began, and then it became a semi-regular occurrence.  Truly terrifying to me.

It feels like a combination of her being a third spouse rolled up with her being a toddler.  

Couldn't say it any better, with the caveat that it was like having two spouses:  my wife who would slip on her mask to leave the house to attend work functions and dinner parties and fundraisers with me as the beautiful, vivacious, engaging alpha female for a few hours who could barely make it back to the car/cab/train with me before the mask came off and the helpless child returned.  And if it was just our family going out, it was like having three children in tow because there was no one to put on a show for. 

When I am able to be compassionate and identify her competence in a meaningful way, she matures, almost before my eyes. Yet, when her dad is around, and he (for example) instructs her or gives her unsolicited advice, she turns into a 7 year old right in front of us, like she's on a teeter totter, adjusting her unstable self to whatever opposite role is presented to her through us.

My wife is a subject matter expert and I needed her expertise on a project at work, so, since I'm the boss, and since we don't talk when I get home any more I decided to conference her in on a project we were working on to get her advice.  Tour de Force by her.  30 minutes it would have taken us 30 hours to learn on our own.  Blew my directors and managers socks off.  Spoke in a clear and authoritative voice, straight to the point, and left us with idiot-proof directions on next steps.  I was nearly in tears she did so well, to the point that my employees could see how much it affected me.

Later that day she called me in actual tears because she couldn't figure out how to pay her cell phone bill online since she had changed carriers after she left and she wanted me to figure it out for her so the company wouldn't turn her phone off (I declined; boundaries and all).  Her mother and father and I are all guilty of instilling learned helplessness over the years regarding certain issues, but outside of her subject matter expertise and the latest and greatest beauty trends, she is incompetent to do much of anything right now and that's not hyperbole.

I also notice, too, how memory works for her, to maybe help explain why it is so baffling to have a conversation that seems normal, only to learn later that a bomb went off. It's like she latches on to the most intense feeling during the conversation -- usually something about inadequacy -- and then reconstructs the conversation around that feeling. Where I remember how the conversation was presented, what we saw while walking, what I said, what she said, she remembers it from the perspective of that one feeling and everything else is brushed away.

Sorry, I guess I thought this was part and parcel of BPD, as this was the playbook at the end of our relationship.  The few nights she was lucid and emotionally regulated would feel like cloud 9 until something I said or did would turn everything on its head.  For example, one night I surprised her by getting a baby sitter, getting a pass from therapy, taking her to a really nice dinner, going to see a comedy she had mentioned, and having a really great time.  On the way home I said something like "I've missed you so much.   This is the woman I fell in love with and I'm so happy I got to spend tonight with you," to which she responded "you don't think this is the real me and you don't believe I'm going to get better, do you," and then proceeded to lock me out of our bedroom and I slept on the couch.  Walking on egg shells:  it's fantastic!

Reading your posts, this is the version of BPD I know and it reads word for word like a description of some of the features my wife exhibits.  It's scary how many of our stories rhyme, even scarier that I was sitting here nodding my head reading your entire post.  I know this version of BPD, I'm married to it. 

[livednlearned]

I know that my guy (who, before I understood what he suffers from, and of course with his knowledge, I'd sometimes refer to as "Eyore" can often appear down, dejected, removed, "out of it," precisely when he is most triggered.

This. I experienced this too. Is this disassociation? My T thinks it might be psychosis. Apparently psychosis can be something that runs right under the radar, a more severe form of disassociation. (Or, what I mentioned below, about schema therapy and the "detached protector"?)

D19 can respond almost like a robot, her face is so impassive, her eyes are blank. I noticed in looking at childhood photos of her throughout the house that she rarely smiles, just a blank look on her face. I have not read anything that addresses this, nor what approach to take when interacting with her when she's like this. I found myself feeling the eggshell feeling, and would sometimes talk nervously, so I have been focusing on what that's about.

Earlier this year I sent a call to members to see who was a parent of a quiet BPD, what sets us apart? Three responses. Is it that rare?

I wonder that too. D19 was diagnosed bipolar, and that may be where some quiet borderlines get a cormorbid (or incorrect?) diagnosis? I did not initially consider BPD until D19's behavior landed me back in therapy and my T suggested she sounded like classic BPD (her words). She asked a series of questions and it was a gut punch to realize how many pointed to BPD, right in plain sight, wearing a different costume.  

It's wonderful that your son is embracing T. D19 is also very brave in that way -- she told me in confidence about being mentally ill, and even told me she talked to her T about me   . I have this feeling she would be brave about a BPD diagnosis, though it's definitely not my place to raise the issue.

The "robot" mode she would go into was the scariest facet of her illness for me outside of SI and self-harm, because I had no idea if she was going to hurt herself, hurt us, or have a psychotic break (spoiler alert; she did!).

Also, what was so amazing to me was that the robot only came out after she got into DBT; we had known each other all those years and I had never seen her dissociate like that until psychotherapy began, and then it became a semi-regular occurrence.  Truly terrifying to me.

I wonder why DBT led to that? I've experienced full-blown rages with my ex, and uBPD brother. The robot/disassociation (psychosis?) that D19 seems to experience is in some ways more chilling, though I am learning that both raging and robot/disassociation affect me the same way. I find it almost paralyzing and spent a lot of time this summer going back to earlier lessons, like learning to take care of myself by limiting exposure.

Her mother and father and I are all guilty of instilling learned helplessness over the years regarding certain issues, but outside of her subject matter expertise and the latest and greatest beauty trends, she is incompetent to do much of anything right now and that's not hyperbole.

It is very hard to resist those tendencies. Honestly, what could be more counter-intuitive? Someone we love is in distress and wants help. It has taken a lot of work on my part to untangle this and figure out how to respond in a way that puts responsibility where it belongs. I think I manage to do this successfully 5/10 times, on average. Maybe 7/10 on a good day.

she responded "you don't think this is the real me and you don't believe I'm going to get better, do you," and then proceeded to lock me out of our bedroom and I slept on the couch.  

I have tried to understand the "real me" kind of comments by reading about Schema therapy. "a schema mode is:  a facet of the self, involving specific schemas or coping responses, that has not been fully integrated with other facets.  According to this perspective,  schema modes can be characterized by the degree to which a particular schema mode state has become dissociated, or cut off, from an individual's other modes.  A schema mode, therefore, is a part of the self that is cut off, to some degree, from other aspects of the self." www.schematherapy.com/id61.htm

If you read about the Detached Protector mode, this is a schema mode that is in a state of emotional avoidance. I wonder if that is what I am seeing in D19 when she appears to mask her emotions. And that perhaps that is different than disassociating -- which is more about not being connected to a mode as opposed to not being connected to emotions?

Detached Protector: cuts off needs and feelings; detaches emotionally from people and rejects their help; feels withdrawn, spacey, distracted, disconnected, depersonalized, empty or bored;

[wendydarling]

Hey Livednlearned

Apologies not to follow up as promised . This is a very welcomed discussion. Off to bed and back to you at my weekend.

Many thanks.

WDx

[livednlearned]

I look forward to hearing your thoughts wendydarling  

D19 had a busy few days, no texts and phone calls, as she was moving into a new dorm/apartment with a friend she made last year. I noticed SO was feeling some anxiety about not hearing from her, and did a good job letting there be some distance though I secretly think he texted her ... .

She called today, a burst of catastrophizing: she can't do it, the pace is too much, no one likes her, her teachers don't like her, etc.

I had a hard summer, on one hand trying to point out things that were happening, usually around boundaries and how to communicate, and on the other hand not becoming a caretaker of both SO and D19.

It is really hard when a partner is not on the same page. I kept finding that I was helping to make things better while feeling worse myself.  

So last night when D19 called SO, after they talked he did a recap. I asked him if there was anything he wanted from me in particular, something I wish he would ask D19. It felt good, to step out of caretaking SO and just do the thing I think may help her most, which is to not rescue or give advice. Trying to be a role model 

I'm also going to appreciate the times when they communicate before we go to bed. D19 has a really hard time with the hours before bed, and in the past has wanted to talk when it's already lights out for me and SO, something that has been hard for me (uBPD brother had the same thing, feels like I spent my childhood staying up to comfort him so he wasn't alone).

SO will text D19 before dinner to let her know he'll be turning in at 9pm like he has discussed before, to remind her to bring up anything she wants to talk about before he goes to sleep. It's a baby step, and one I am going to file under tiny little change  

[Icanteven]

I wonder why DBT led to that? I've experienced full-blown rages with my ex, and uBPD brother. The robot/disassociation (psychosis?) that D19 seems to experience is in some ways more chilling, though I am learning that both raging and robot/disassociation affect me the same way.

Maybe I was a bit too specific, but I can tell you that her immersion into psychotherapy, including DBT, caused the wheels to fall off.  And, her incredible hostility to DBT makes me think that might have been a root cause.  That said, I've had a number of mental health professionals (all three "branches" - Psych, PsyD, LCSW, and more than one in each) explain to me that, having never been in psychotherapy before and finally being exposed caused her to confront - unwillingly - emotions she had been able to suppress otherwise, so shutting down in an environment where she was dealing with a person - me - who couldn't even be charitably described as a novice was her defense mechanism to avoid those feelings.  In fact, avoiding emotions outside of therapy became her apparent primary motivation in life, as she would spend most of her time inducing sleep or dissociating. 

If you read about the Detached Protector mode, this is a schema mode that is in a state of emotional avoidance. I wonder if that is what I am seeing in D19 when she appears to mask her emotions. And that perhaps that is different than disassociating -- which is more about not being connected to a mode as opposed to not being connected to emotions?

Sounds like our experiences aren't quite as similar after all.  My wife isn't trying to mask her emotions, it's literally a lights are on but nobody's home situation.  And it's PRONOUNCED.  Maybe there's a gradient between masking emotions and dissociation and psychosis, so it's a spectrum (ha! imagine that!)?  I just know that I could be sitting beside her seeing a visceral change in her behavior and it was like I was calling out to her to no avail.

[livednlearned]

Sounds like our experiences aren't quite as similar after all.  My wife isn't trying to mask her emotions, it's literally a lights are on but nobody's home situation.  And it's PRONOUNCED.  Maybe there's a gradient between masking emotions and dissociation and psychosis, so it's a spectrum (ha! imagine that!)?  I just know that I could be sitting beside her seeing a visceral change in her behavior and it was like I was calling out to her to no avail.

That makes sense, a spectrum. Because, sometimes it's like masked emotions, other times it's like no one is home. SO will talk to her, and she is ... .gone. She lifts her head in his direction when he's sitting a few feet away, calling her name, and her eyes are dull and lifeless, like the sounds are coming in from far away. This, after a few minutes earlier seeming to be present. If he makes a joke about her not answering, she will then get a new look and there might be passive-aggressive behaviors or she'll seem steaming mad without yelling. For someone who masks her feelings, you can sure feel a lot from her.

She is extremely needy, and so even when she is obviously furious with SO, she'll go for a walk after dinner. If she is mad, she won't talk, or she'll answer in monosyllables. If she is in a good mood, she will try to hold his hand and make the same joke over and over, like a little kid might. I stopped walking with them because it felt so tense. She would feel to me like someone falling apart, yet SO would talk about how to negotiate a raise or something that seemed so discordant with what was happening emotionally in that moment.

That is actually the part I have the hardest time with, the neediness and clinging, and the regression to a child-like state. Or maybe what is hardest even more than that is the distance I feel in those situations, like everyone else is pretending things are normal when to me they seem anything but.

I think the masked emotion --> disassociation --> psychosis is all rooted in the same thing, to try and regulate intense emotions. D19's psychotic depression happened under severe emotional distress. Masked emotions seems to be what happens during stressful, yet less stressful events that are not always easy to pinpoint.

[Sunfl0wer]

Sounds familiar to me:
This link details about dissociation.
www.estd.org/conferences/presentations/onno%20van%20der%20hart.pdf

What do you think?

[livednlearned]

Thanks Sunfl0wer. It's helpful, and at the same time, makes me so sad for her.

D19 "attacks self" so much, it is heartbreaking. And this link explains the difference between what is happening when she appears to be self attacking, and when she is avoiding or withdrawing.

I remember the first time I met her, it was a surprise to her. I came up the steps behind her dad in their townhome, and she wasn't expecting me to be there. Suddenly we were face to face, and I saw a look of surprise and then immediately a mask. Not the usual scrambling for composure, more like she was stuffing powerful feelings into a neutral face that would pass for something more acceptable (to her, to us?).

I see that face so often in her, and it makes me realize, reading through the link you sent, that she is doing this most of the time she is with her us. Sadly, I think she tries to understand her roiling emotions by discussing them with her uBPD mother, who tells her to go shopping when D19 is feeling depressed. 

I notice the emphasis on maternal trauma bonding. My son has some similarities to D19, though not as acute, and i wonder if it's because the trauma was incurred by his dad, who was not his primary caretaker.

So much to take in, and try to understand here.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Sunfl0wer]

Glad it was helpful, sorry she is experiencing difficulties.

It is a lot to take in for me as well, and while I do not have BPD, I did learn the past few months of having DID, huge shocker for me.  I admit to feeling adverse towards BPD due to experiences with my mom and sister having been abusers towards me.  I was reluctant to understand how they may also be compartmentalizing aspects of their personality and also reluctant upon hearing reports of the DSM moving towards including BPD as a type of dissociative disorder.  Yet, after my own research and especially that slide presentation, I can actually imagine how when my sister freaks out and seems like she is living in the past and speaking from a place of such pain and hurt as if it is happening today and projecting that onto present day stuff, actually IS very much like the Emotional Parts of dissociative disorders.  Cause then there are times here on this site we call our significant person with BPD "lucid" and this could very well be likened to that "ANP" apparently normal part.

I am still wrapping my head around this all, what it means for me and also for others not on this spectrum of dissociation and also on it to other degrees. 

I can relate well to what you describe in terms of her having different emotional states.  Some seem like a complete regression. (Like an "Emotional Part"  Sometimes when things get so overwhelming, there is kinda a masked personality present.  I too have what I think of as a zombie-like personality that will help me go through the functional aspects of life even if my mind appears quite emotionally absent. (I tend to call a sick day if this happens so no one will see me like this, typically happens after doctor appointments where I am anticipating painful things even if they aren't, my mind may not realize and will just tune out to protect me from feeling pain)  I think many with some degree of dissociative disorders actually have that.

I can't find it but I also think I recall you mentioning how the person acts towards her actually helps to trigger her ego state to be either mature or childish.  Just wanted to say this is very true for many with dissociative issues I think.  Dissociation is a survival mechanism and well, we tend to dissociate in a way that will make us most acceptable to our surroundings.  If someone expects us to behave mature, work our job, then I can easily use my work alter to step up and get work done.  If someone treats me like I am helpless and coddles me, I tend to hate it, but it triggers in me to behave that role and find a Part of me to respond to what is expected from people.  But this is not always the case that a Part wants to placate a situation.  Sometimes, when I feel forced to do something I do not want, my mind feels in a meltdown fight, fight, or freeze mode, so there is that too.

Hope something was helpful for things making more sense.
Thanks for reading.

[livednlearned]

while I do not have BPD, I did learn the past few months of having DID, huge shocker for me.

I can only imagine how shocking that would be, Sunfl0wer. One thing BPD has taught me is that it's very hard to think about our personality when we're in it. Our personality is all any of us know, we have nothing to compare, no other way to see reality except the one we have. So to learn from a professional that we experience reality in a way that is not considered typical would be shocking. Even reading through those slides you shared, and understanding intellectually what it means to be integrated/not integrated... .it's very hard to map that to thoughts and feelings, and understand how it could be different to experience what we do in any other way.

And maybe the shock is a relief, too? I wonder sometimes if D19 finds relief in her bipolar dx because it explains in biological terms what she experiences emotionally. She will age out of her current psychiatrist when she turns 20 and I am hoping her next doctor is more aware of BPD, or, knowing she is now a young adult and not an adolescent, I hope the next doc is more wiling to make the dx. I see D19 as the kind of brave woman who would learn about BPD and work on the skills, although that's just my guess. I think she does not want to feel the way she does, and desperately wants help. She may hate the help once she gets it, but I also see her wanting something to explain why relationships are so hard for her, and why she feels so strange and different.

I admit to feeling adverse towards BPD due to experiences with my mom and sister having been abusers towards me.  I was reluctant to understand how they may also be compartmentalizing aspects of their personality and also reluctant upon hearing reports of the DSM moving towards including BPD as a type of dissociative disorder.  Yet, after my own research and especially that slide presentation, I can actually imagine how when my sister freaks out and seems like she is living in the past and speaking from a place of such pain and hurt as if it is happening today and projecting that onto present day stuff, actually IS very much like the Emotional Parts of dissociative disorders.  Cause then there are times here on this site we call our significant person with BPD "lucid" and this could very well be likened to that "ANP" apparently normal part.

It is hard to accept that we are like our abusers, even if it's only a small part and doesn't represent the entirety of who we are. I find myself doing things I have accused my uBPD brother of doing, and N/BPDx, and it is very humbling.

It's interesting what you say about lucidity. The time when D19 seemed the most present this summer is the one time when I allowed myself to get closer to her. She was experiencing a lot of distress about text messages from her mom, and I validated feelings she was having, and communicated my belief in her competence to handle things in a skilled way. We ended up going for a walk, and she confided to me about some things, and her insights were very profound and wise, and real, and in that moment I could hear her speaking from a lucid place, even though what she was sharing was sad. The conversation did turn weird toward the end, and she has a massive cognitive distortion that was shocking -- she interpreted something I said and bent it so far out of shape it was almost unrecognizable. The lesson I took from that is that validation can go too far when someone is already emotionally aroused. I worry that she will split me white and her mom black and put us in the same role, creating very confusing dialectic distress for herself without having the skills to navigate it.

I can relate well to what you describe in terms of her having different emotional states.  Some seem like a complete regression. (Like an "Emotional Part"  Sometimes when things get so overwhelming, there is kinda a masked personality present.  I too have what I think of as a zombie-like personality that will help me go through the functional aspects of life even if my mind appears quite emotionally absent. (I tend to call a sick day if this happens so no one will see me like this, typically happens after doctor appointments where I am anticipating painful things even if they aren't, my mind may not realize and will just tune out to protect me from feeling pain)  I think many with some degree of dissociative disorders actually have that.

It is the first thing I mentioned to my own T when describing D19 -- her mask is very prominent and very noticeable. I also notice that she does not remember conversations, so I suspect she is not just masking her facial expression, she is entirely and totally gone. SO uses humor to try and tease her back to the present. I think of it as him trying to stabilize the relationship without addressing her emotions. At the beginning of the summer, I could never tell what she might be feeling, though toward the end I began to see patterns, and they were noticeable enough I could piece together when she was upset or mad. She is actually very afraid, I think, to show anger directly.

I can't find it but I also think I recall you mentioning how the person acts towards her actually helps to trigger her ego state to be either mature or childish.  Just wanted to say this is very true for many with dissociative issues I think.  Dissociation is a survival mechanism and well, we tend to dissociate in a way that will make us most acceptable to our surroundings.  If someone expects us to behave mature, work our job, then I can easily use my work alter to step up and get work done.  If someone treats me like I am helpless and coddles me, I tend to hate it, but it triggers in me to behave that role and find a Part of me to respond to what is expected from people.  But this is not always the case that a Part wants to placate a situation.  Sometimes, when I feel forced to do something I do not want, my mind feels in a meltdown fight, fight, or freeze mode, so there is that too.

This was the hardest part for me with D19, in many ways. I found myself struggling the most when she regressed based on how she was interacting with her dad. It took me all summer to figure out how to be present with them both, and to communicate something that directed them both toward a more adult interaction. In the early part of the summer, D19 would burp and fart at the table, and I made a comment that both of them experienced like a scold. And she became even more regressed.

Toward the end of the summer, I realized I almost had to ignore the child-like ego state, and introduce a comment that reminded her she was capable of an adult state. For example, if SO was telling D19 about something she didn't ask for advice about, it got to the point I could almost see the regression happening, though like you said, it seemed as tho she hated it. I would try to gently re-direct SO by saying something like, "Maybe D19 has some thoughts about this." It was like throwing her a rope so she could climb back to the surface and stay with us as the young adult she is, competent and capable of problem-solving.

I cannot believe how much effort and work it takes to try and figure out how to stay centered in the face of my own triggers, while raising up the skill level of D19 and her dad.    Someone on the Improving board once talked about how learning to be emotionally healthy can feel like a complete evolution of personality, and he was talking about the non-BPD partner. Certainly seems true from my experience.

Change is hard.

[Sunfl0wer]

And maybe the shock is a relief, too? I wonder sometimes if D19 finds relief in her bipolar dx because it explains in biological terms what she experiences emotionally. She will age out of her current psychiatrist when she turns 20 and I am hoping her next doctor is more aware of BPD, or, knowing she is now a young adult and not an adolescent, I hope the next doc is more wiling to make the dx. I see D19 as the kind of brave woman who would learn about BPD and work on the skills, although that's just my guess. I think she does not want to feel the way she does, and desperately wants help. She may hate the help once she gets it, but I also see her wanting something to explain why relationships are so hard for her, and why she feels so strange and different.

Actually, yes.  It is a huge relief.  Not knowing what was going on, but having it go on, and having nothing to compare it to felt more insane than someone saying I have DID/or DDNOS.   Using these new lenses to redefine, relook at how I have looked at things, is eye opening and helping me to connect many dots. 

To think of some examples that may be pertinent to D19 situation:  (I have lots of co consciousness so am not taken over by hugely differing personas without memory, more like very separated ego states that do some mixing/blending, occasional "losing time" tho.) So when I am sensing that I feel so depressed, in the past I often would tell myself, "oh gosh I think that another major depression feels like it is approaching, usually lasts three or so months." Then I brace myself expecting I am entering a depressive episode.  And often, yea, another major depressive episode would hit.  However, now I can know that it likely is a Part (that Emotional Part described in slide) of who I am, not ALL of me, and I can tell myself, "ok, this is how I feel right now, yet I know that is a piece of how my whole is feeling.  I know there are more content Parts in here and can think of them, help them surface to help soothe this depressed part a bit."  Feels like I can prevent a depression episode or other symptoms, now that I understand what I am working with in my mind.

It's interesting what you say about lucidity. The time when D19 seemed the most present this summer is the one time when I allowed myself to get closer to her. She was experiencing a lot of distress about text messages from her mom, and I validated feelings she was having, and communicated my belief in her competence to handle things in a skilled way. We ended up going for a walk, and she confided to me about some things, and her insights were very profound and wise, and real, and in that moment I could hear her speaking from a lucid place, even though what she was sharing was sad. The conversation did turn weird toward the end, and she has a massive cognitive distortion that was shocking -- she interpreted something I said and bent it so far out of shape it was almost unrecognizable. The lesson I took from that is that validation can go too far when someone is already emotionally aroused. I worry that she will split me white and her mom black and put us in the same role, creating very confusing dialectic distress for herself without having the skills to navigate it.

Sounds like your walk/talk started out being quite productive.
I noticed your choice of language, "allowed myself to get closer to her."  I recall my r/s with my SD, having similar thoughts.  There was a great deal of pain in being close to her for so many reasons.  Sorry that you felt guarded/cautious and such.

Just want to say the obvious maybe, even tho it seems the conversation may have took a wrong turn, or for me, sometimes my therapist or such says things that I seem to be repelling, often other Parts of me actually are soaking this in -still beneficial.

I wonder if you think she accidentally caught herself allowing herself to trust you and got scared of that and another piece of herself decided to "balance" things out and present this other side?  Maybe as a way to ease some inner anxiety about it?

Idk, IMO at this moment, whenever someone is being genuine to me and allowing my Parts exist/different aspects of Me, and not demanding to only spend time with me in a conditional/partial way (like my ex who only wanted a happy version and he withdrew if I was sad even when it was like a death in the family) and ok with me having a range of differing and even opposing opinions, this for me lately is the most healing.  Any time I can exist, especially in discomforting feelings and thoughts and it be ok for me to have these thoughts, still feel lovable, I feel more a whole person, if that makes sense.  Sounds like she was allowing more of herself to exist a bit, or finding more or such... .sounds good.

It is the first thing I mentioned to my own T when describing D19 -- her mask is very prominent and very noticeable. I also notice that she does not remember conversations, so I suspect she is not just masking her facial expression, she is entirely and totally gone. SO uses humor to try and tease her back to the present. I think of it as him trying to stabilize the relationship without addressing her emotions.

I hear what you are saying.  My ex did this kinda thing a lot with his D.  Inside, it triggered me as I felt strongly that it was counterintuitive to what she needed.  Tbh, it actually infuriated me.

Best I could do was my own best to do differently in my time with her.  (Easier calmly stated looking back)

So rather than trigger her back changing her state of mind for her, I wonder if it would be more validating and bring her greater awareness to try:
Hey, you look a bit spacey right now.  Where did you go? 
Then try to be ok with whatever she wants to share.

Maybe it could cause her to think where she trailed off and help her to see what triggered her to want to mentally escape?

At the very least she will have to stop and think, "Where Am I?"  Which in itself could maybe be a bit grounding.  (Such questions causes my rational mind to kick in and emotional parts get lighter when posed with left brained stuff.)

At the beginning of the summer, I could never tell what she might be feeling, though toward the end I began to see patterns, and they were noticeable enough I could piece together when she was upset or mad. She is actually very afraid, I think, to show anger directly.

This makes a lot of sense to me and I relate a lot.  One of the things I loved about the slides was the emphasis on dealing with phobias being main thing for healing.  I never thought of my feelings in this way.  Now though I am clearly seeing that I have fears of feeling and facing feelings and being triggered into feelings and especially anger.  I seriously have sat in therapy asking where anger is as I am so out of touch with anger almost always.  It is the hardest thing for me to find, but kinda makes sense tho as in FOO, anger of me was NOT allowed at all!  Most dangerous thing to express... .so I hardly ever did, and kinda lost it/buried it.

This was the hardest part for me with D19, in many ways. I found myself struggling the most when she regressed based on how she was interacting with her dad. It took me all summer to figure out how to be present with them both, and to communicate something that directed them both toward a more adult interaction. In the early part of the summer, D19 would burp and fart at the table, and I made a comment that both of them experienced like a scold. And she became even more regressed.

Toward the end of the summer, I realized I almost had to ignore the child-like ego state, and introduce a comment that reminded her she was capable of an adult state. For example, if SO was telling D19 about something she didn't ask for advice about, it got to the point I could almost see the regression happening, though like you said, it seemed as tho she hated it.

If she is in a child like ego state, her child may respond to reprimand like a child, scornful. 

I would try to gently re-direct SO by saying something like, "Maybe D19 has some thoughts about this." It was like throwing her a rope so she could climb back to the surface and stay with us as the young adult she is, competent and capable of problem-solving.

I like the idea of you assuming her adult like and just asking her opinion and such. (it eliminates possibility for shame a bit too as it is less like a reprimand )

I know what you mean tho.  Gosh, I could go on for pages venting how my ex infantilized that girl and watching her regress before my very eyes was so so painful that I still feel that pain... .really am going to be working on this in my own therapy, I felt traumatized to watch this happening!  So sorry!

I cannot believe how much effort and work it takes to try and figure out how to stay centered in the face of my own triggers, while raising up the skill level of D19 and her dad.    Someone on the Improving board once talked about how learning to be emotionally healthy can feel like a complete evolution of personality, and he was talking about the non-BPD partner. Certainly seems true from my experience.

Change is hard.

Certainly!

Hope my rambling didn't lull ya to sleep.  The issues of my ex SD and her dad, well, really get me wanting to chat a bit for my own healing cause it just frustrated me so to see a simple solution, and a simple way of treating her as capable, but he would treat me like expecting her to be capable was actual ABUSE!  So he got triggered!  Then I felt his infantalizing her was abuse as I watched her regress before my eyes, so crud, idk, I really can write books I think until I will finally feel not so pained by what was happening.  The hopelessness I felt, ugh!  Can put me into emotional flashbacks, , not funny, but true! :P

[livednlearned]

I noticed your choice of language, "allowed myself to get closer to her."

Yes.  

I did not, and still don't, trust my own skills in this new relationship with D19. I spent a lot of the summer grieving, tbh. Having gone through this in FOO, then marriage/divorce, it feels like there has been a conveyor belt of BPD coming toward me. I managed to slow down my relationship with SO to a place that was comfortable, and then when we moved in, everything accelerated so quickly. My son regressed and stayed in his room all summer. He lived through his dad's worst psychotic episode, and knows that D19 has a similar dx, so moving in and then having her come here two weeks later = total bust.

I wonder if you think she accidentally caught herself allowing herself to trust you and got scared of that and another piece of herself decided to "balance" things out and present this other side?  Maybe as a way to ease some inner anxiety about it?

I guess? It's hard to say. Do you mean maybe a loyalty bind about talking to me about her mom? Getting intimate with the (bad) dad's new GF?

Her distortion was:

1. Telling me she's gay (she opened up).
2. Saying that her dad is prejudiced about her being gay (he is not, tho earlier she was transgender, and wanted to be called a male name, and he needed time to process, admitted relapse to female name might happen).
3. Then me (JADE-ing, knowing he would be thrilled if she was gay, transgender is more complex for him), saying he does not come across to me as prejudice
4. Then me (more JADE-ing) saying I could not be with someone prejudice, therefore her dad is not prejudice
5. Then her in tears, 10 minutes later, asking if me and her dad were going to split up. Right after her dad and I were relaxed, happy, hugging

I interpret that more as self-referential thinking/feeling that she was not lovable enough for her parents to stay together, and now again (same emotion), she is the reason her dad/LnL can't stay together. Without any proof whatsoever that there are issues (no reality testing). Speaking of reality, I am not sure what to make of the episode, only that emotions swept away the cognitive trajectory of our conversation and flipped it upside down. It is this, more than anything, that makes me think she is more than bipolar, likely BPD. The intense neediness, clinginess makes me suspect she may also be dependent PD, a common comorbid dx from what I gather.

Conversation quicksand. Emotionally I lost balance and felt like I was going under.  

Idk, IMO at this moment, whenever someone is being genuine to me and allowing my Parts exist/different aspects of Me, and not demanding to only spend time with me in a conditional/partial way... .Any time I can exist, especially in discomforting feelings and thoughts and it be ok for me to have these thoughts, still feel lovable, I feel more a whole person, if that makes sense.  Sounds like she was allowing more of herself to exist a bit, or finding more or such... .sounds good.

This is what I am striving for. At the moment, my flight responses are triggered by her and I don't want to be here next summer if she returns again. Still working through these feelings, to sit with them, and try to stabilize. It feels like I will be the one carrying the family dynamic and the emotional choppy waters and I don't have that confidence. I can do it when I'm not emotionally triggered, but when I am, it feels like the wheels might come off and both SO and I are already repairing from FOO and marriage/divorce damage. Going back into high emotional intensity is tough for us both.

It is the first thing I mentioned to my own T when describing D19 -- her mask is very prominent and very noticeable. I also notice that she does not remember conversations, so I suspect she is not just masking her facial expression, she is entirely and totally gone. SO uses humor to try and tease her back to the present. I think of it as him trying to stabilize the relationship without addressing her emotions.

I hear what you are saying.  My ex did this kinda thing a lot with his D.  Inside, it triggered me as I felt strongly that it was counterintuitive to what she needed.  Tbh, it actually infuriated me.

It does. Even though I have done the same thing, meaning dialed down potential for emotional moments because I wasn't ready for what might follow.

So rather than trigger her back changing her state of mind for her, I wonder if it would be more validating and bring her greater awareness to try:
Hey, you look a bit spacey right now.  Where did you go?  
Then try to be ok with whatever she wants to share.

This is really helpful. Thank you  

With D19, I guess (you may understand this) that I am getting into choppy care-taking waters, or else acting like a T when I'm not. The whole summer was about trying to figure out my role in our temporary (and intense) family situation. Making sure I took care of myself (boundaries, self-care, telling SO how I felt) so that I had the compassion and empathy I needed to overcome triggers.

Maybe it could cause her to think where she trailed off and help her to see what triggered her to want to mentally escape?

At the very least she will have to stop and think, "Where Am I?"  Which in itself could maybe be a bit grounding.  (Such questions causes my rational mind to kick in and emotional parts get lighter when posed with left brained stuff.)

I may have the strength to do this next time I see her. My T recommended a game for us to play called Tune In, Turn Up card game.

I wasn't ready.  

I seriously have sat in therapy asking where anger is as I am so out of touch with anger almost always.  It is the hardest thing for me to find, but kinda makes sense tho as in FOO, anger of me was NOT allowed at all!  Most dangerous thing to express... .so I hardly ever did, and kinda lost it/buried it.

This is true for me as well. I'm always surprised when T asks how I'm feeling and it takes a couple seconds to realize, oh, yeah. Angry.

Hope my rambling didn't lull ya to sleep.

Completely the opposite! I am grateful.  

I have to decide what role I want to play, how much of a break I truly want, whether I have the strength (and courage) to move in more deeply to that dynamic.

I have spent decades living in homes I didn't want to return to at the end of the day. The five years leading up to this summer were extraordinary. To come home without a pit of dread in my summer was a blessing.

It was hard to move into yet another living situation strewn with eggshells.

[Sunfl0wer]

Gosh, I just kept finding myself relating to so much from many angles, things that are so strong for me from that relationship and dynamic, glad I didn't lull you to sleep!

I have spent decades living in homes I didn't want to return to at the end of the day. The five years leading up to this summer were extraordinary. To come home without a pit of dread in my summer was a blessing.

I completely get this!  Also, my son spent like two yrs mostly hiding in his room because of our household dynamics and the stress.  I really didn't think it was stressful on him until it wasn't, then saw a new "kid" evolve again.  Amazing how this "invisible" dynamic stuff that is so hard for others to "see" affects all hugely.

I guess? It's hard to say. Do you mean maybe a loyalty bind about talking to me about her mom? Getting intimate with the (bad) dad's new GF?

Well, I didn't really mean anything specifically, but yea, that sounds like one possibility.  Also, sometimes I catch myself being "too happy" and another side of me will pop in to squash it to remind me not to get "too excited" or "too invested" as this can lead to disappointment and hurt.  So really experiencing any new thoughts or feelings or even old ones we are overwhelmed with suddenly can make one want to "balance" them out.  Part of me feels keeping a negative outlook actually is less harmful than being hopeful.  I am seeing some tendencies to have phobias of feeling good stuff within me.

Conversation quicksand. Emotionally I lost balance and felt like I was going under.

She is still young, sounds like her thoughts, feelings are a bit all over the place and likely confuse her. 

I think maybe simplest thing can be thinking in terms of allowing it ALL to just exist, accept it all as part of her experience.

Do her parents tend to cherry pick/guide her in which ways to think, behave? 
Like I could clearly see my SD would present only viewpoints that she knew would please dad or mom, or sometimes intentionally present ones that caused conflict with dad when she was mad at him.  Like she wanted to redefine herself to make him mad at not "on her side."  The result was the poor girl had really no idea what SHE thought ever.  She just sided with whatever felt safest at the moment, never allowing the duality of thoughts to be ok existing.  Sometimes it appeared she had thoughts that were her own, but ended up not really being the case.  Even her English school essays were cut/pasted thoughts, never her in the process of working out her own conclusions about stuff... .sad.

This is what I am striving for. At the moment, my flight responses are triggered by her and I don't want to be here next summer if she returns again. Still working through these feelings, to sit with them, and try to stabilize. It feels like I will be the one carrying the family dynamic and the emotional choppy waters and I don't have that confidence. I can do it when I'm not emotionally triggered, but when I am, it feels like the wheels might come off and both SO and I are already repairing from FOO and marriage/divorce damage. Going back into high emotional intensity is tough for us both.

Glad to hear you are working with a T on these things, it's on the top hardest crap I ever delt with IMO.  Sounds like you are being quite mindful, thoughtful and realistic in that you have to be the one "carrying" much.  Also sounds great that you are aware of needing to to note your state of feeling triggered and such and to respond to your own needs.  This is where I lost it.  I lost my ability to remain present and whole.  It became way too triggering and then well, it all snowballed from there.  So I think that is the key to where it all fell apart, cause as you say, like the person least "inside" of the dynamic has gotta carry so much.

With D19, I guess (you may understand this) that I am getting into choppy care-taking waters, or else acting like a T when I'm not. The whole summer was about trying to figure out my role in our temporary (and intense) family situation. Making sure I took care of myself (boundaries, self-care, telling SO how I felt) so that I had the compassion and empathy I needed to overcome triggers.

I recall feeling like everyone's therapist.  Also though, I felt it my duty to repair things that existed way before I came into the picture.  Now, I realize I was not clear in my role.  I wish I had acted less invested in the outcome as I felt I was "fighting" for something that I knew was best but no one else did.  So really, it didn't have the impact I knew it could. 

Self care can never be emphasized enough, good on you! :D

Re: game...   Yea, I would maybe feel a bit odd/vulnerable like with that game.  We did play an app that was a version of Humanity Cards game.  It was great fun and got us all laughing and chatting and being silly also learning about one another some.  Ok, maybe not for everyone tho as some cards can be crude and all.  You also need at least three to play and we all played on the TV as a screen (google chromecast) and used our phones for the cards.

I have to decide what role I want to play, how much of a break I truly want, whether I have the strength (and courage) to move in more deeply to that dynamic.

I think for me, I wish I had stayed a bit farther away from therapist role.  Less trying so hard to "make" things work vs allowing them to happen and responding.  Less trying to "fix" and get people to do what I know would work, and more simply suggesting and letting go of the outcome.

I tended to feel myself get more and more controlling.  Would feel so hard not to when the answer of how to handle things seemed uber clear and obvious to me, but yea, people got free will, and their own pace for growth, and even if they mostly did what I wanted, or eventually agreed, they still could do stuff that would mess it up and make me feel I wasted a ton of effort. (Like after all the work getting teachers to accept make up work, SD coulda had all A's but she wanted to self sabotage to prove we were bad parents to her)  So letting go of the outcome woulda been a bit better for me.  I think just working on existing myself, and allowing others to, and just lots more "allowing" and adjusting and keeping myself cared for (my son too) and not lost.

[livednlearned]

I think for me, I wish I had stayed a bit farther away from therapist role.  Less trying so hard to "make" things work vs allowing them to happen and responding.  Less trying to "fix" and get people to do what I know would work, and more simply suggesting and letting go of the outcome.

This. It's really what I worked on all summer. I spent a lot of time peeling away from SO and D19, trying to get centered and not feel invested. Especially after the start of the summer when I was doing cartwheels over things like her toddler behaviors, and SO downplaying. It's hard to pretend you don't see things when it's like, duh, this is happening. What I'm trying to figure out now, is whether my desire to leave with S15 next summer is about fleeing, or whether it is about self-care. That gauntlet between relying on a faulty coping mechanism (which feels like self-care), or doing something that is truly about self-care. Where's the multiple choice answer when you need it. 

I tended to feel myself get more and more controlling.  Would feel so hard not to when the answer of how to handle things seemed uber clear and obvious to me, but yea, people got free will, and their own pace for growth, and even if they mostly did what I wanted, or eventually agreed, they still could do stuff that would mess it up and make me feel I wasted a ton of effort.

Every family I've lived in, we always bend to the most difficult person. I just want a break. 

[Sunfl0wer]

What I'm trying to figure out now, is whether my desire to leave with S15 next summer is about fleeing, or whether it is about self-care. That gauntlet between relying on a faulty coping mechanism (which feels like self-care), or doing something that is truly about self-care. Where's the multiple choice answer when you need it. 

Sorry, I am confused.  What do you mean by "fleeing next summer?"  Do you mean a vacation the two of you? Or leaving the relationship?  I kinda am confused why summer and why "flee?"

[livednlearned]

What I'm trying to figure out now, is whether my desire to leave with S15 next summer is about fleeing, or whether it is about self-care. That gauntlet between relying on a faulty coping mechanism (which feels like self-care), or doing something that is truly about self-care. Where's the multiple choice answer when you need it. 

Sorry, I am confused.  What do you mean by "fleeing next summer?"  Do you mean a vacation the two of you? Or leaving the relationship?  I kinda am confused why summer and why "flee?"

I'm originally from the other coast, where my closest friends live. One of them has a farm, plus a few businesses she runs. And a guest cabin. She may be able to give S15 a summer job. If he gets a job there, he would be fine on his own for the summer, but I would likely stay in the area too. I can work remotely with the job I currently have, and it would give me a temporary break from a full summer with D19.

I don't know. Maybe it's an escape fantasy. I don't want S15 to spend an entire summer in his room again. And I am tired, too.