On the Fence

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hey Everyone,

My significant other was diagnosed about 6 months ago. She confessed to an affair after the guilt was eating at her which made her go into crisis. Sorry for the long incoming post.

I wont go into specific behaviors, they are all similar to what everyone else shares. We have been attempting to work on the marriage, as we love each other very much and have young kids.

Although I have made the decision to forgive her, The affair has obviously affected me in many ways. I have been dealing with my own emotions/depression and it has been difficult. I have not been able to be the emotional stability she needs. Recently, I finally feel like I am turning a corner and am starting to heal and able to completely forgive and move on. However, at this moment, she keeps going back and forth with wanting to be in a relationship or not.

Currently, she feels she is not suited to be in a relationship, as she doesn't want to have to answer to anyone and do whatever she wants. She has stated she wants to remain together and co-parent the kids until they are 18 (all of this came when she became angry/raged one night after we had a disagreement). Obviously that doesn't work for me.

After that outbreak, I brushed it to the side as one of her rage fits, and the past 2 weeks had been awesome. We had gone out on dates, she initiated physical, verbal, emotional affection. Last night, after another disagreement, she went into a fit again, this time adding that she doesn't love me and isn't sexually attracted to me. After talking for about an hour, she later admitted that she is "protecting herself" by killing the spark and attraction she feels, as she doesn't want to allow herself to have those feelings for me, as she isn't fit to be in a relationship. Yes, very confusing.

The hardest part is distinguishing when she actually means what she is saying. My questions are: Does she mean what she says when she is in these fits? I think she doesn't, but I would like some insight/feedback. What skills can I use to get her out of her willful state of mind she currently is in.

I am on the fence of whether to stick around or to move on with my life.

Thanks for reading,
Method

[Method]

Hey Everyone,

My significant other was diagnosed about 6 months ago. She confessed to an affair after the guilt was eating at her which made her go into crisis. Sorry for the long incoming post.

I wont go into specific behaviors, they are all similar to what everyone else shares. We have been attempting to work on the marriage, as we love each other very much and have young kids.

Although I have made the decision to forgive her, The affair has obviously affected me in many ways. I have been dealing with my own emotions/depression and it has been difficult. I have not been able to be the emotional stability she needs. Recently, I finally feel like I am turning a corner and am starting to heal and able to completely forgive and move on. However, at this moment, she keeps going back and forth with wanting to be in a relationship or not.

Currently, she feels she is not suited to be in a relationship, as she doesn't want to have to answer to anyone and do whatever she wants. She has stated she wants to remain together and co-parent the kids until they are 18 (all of this came when she became angry/raged one night after we had a disagreement). Obviously that doesn't work for me.

After that outbreak, I brushed it to the side as one of her rage fits, and the past 2 weeks had been awesome. We had gone out on dates, she initiated physical, verbal, emotional affection. Last night, after another disagreement, she went into a fit again, this time adding that she doesn't love me and isn't sexually attracted to me. After talking for about an hour, she later admitted that she is "protecting herself" by killing the spark and attraction she feels, as she doesn't want to allow herself to have those feelings for me, as she isn't fit to be in a relationship. Yes, very confusing.

The hardest part is distinguishing when she actually means what she is saying. My questions are: Does she mean what she says when she is in these fits? I think she doesn't, but I would like some insight/feedback. What skills can I use to get her out of her willful state of mind she currently is in.

I am on the fence of whether to stick around or to move on with my life.

Thanks for reading,
Method

[ArleighBurke]

Method: Welcome to the site! It sounds like you've been reading which is good.

Unfortunately affairs seems very common with BPD. And that's going to shake up both you and her. It may be that's she's so unstable because she can't deal with this. She needs clear strength from you to show her it's OK.

Does she mean what she says when she is in these fits? I think she doesn't, but I would like some insight/feedback. What skills can I use to get her out of her willful state of mind she currently is in.

With a BPD, she means it when she says it - but she may not mean it later. They are very emotionally driven - like a 5yr old when you take away their ice cream - they will scream "I hate you" - at that moment that's exactly how they feel. But it's fleeting.

I'm also not sure that there are ANY skills you can use to change her state of mind. But, learning Validation and Boundaries will help YOU, and the relationship, and this kind of helps her too.

Read about Validation on this site. It's a difficult skill to master, but you can.

When she says "she isn't fit to be in a relationship" - she is asking for validation! She is asking you to help her through her pain and guilt. How do you respond to her saying that?

Can you also provide some more background info - what ages are your kids? Is your partner in therapy?

[Method]

Thank you for the response ArleighBurke,

Our kids are 11 and 5. She completed DBT the first week of June. Since then, she had been using her skills she learned up until the past couple of weeks. She is not going to a therapist on a regular basis as she was recommended to. As I've read that it is very common with a pwBPD, she knows her diagnosis, but hasn't accepted it completely. She is still resisting.

I will research and try to master validation. When she says things like that, I usually just stay quiet. I try not to engage her when she is angry. She added that she can't emotionally handle the stress of our relationship, for her own sanity. She needs to work on herself, before she goes back into a crisis, I told her I understand that. As I mentioned before, I haven't been emotionally stable, until recently. But, I feel like she feels it's too late.

So I'm on the fence, do I give it some time and hope she changes her mind as time goes on, or do I leave, as she's told me she has no interest in a romantic relationship with me any more? She says this when she's angry, but when she's not angry she's affectionate verbally, physically. I asked her about this the last time we had a discussion and she said "Well, I still love you and I always will, I cant just turn it off from one day to another" AHHHH the confusion! .

Thanks for your time,

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Method,

What would YOU like to see happen?  What is your gut feeling about the r/s?

The rages and "fits" are all part of BPD, I'm afraid.  I always thought that we would reach a plateau in my marriage when the drama would subside, but we never got there.  BPD is an incredibly complex disorder, in my view.  I thought that I could "crack the code" of BPD, but it proved too much for me. 

We can't tell you whether to stick around or move on.  Only you will know when it's time to get off the BPD roller coaster.

LuckyJim

[Method]

Hey LuckyJim,

Thanks for the response. I would like to stay in the marriage, like we were for the first 9 years of it. My gut feeling is that she does in fact love me and we can get back to how things were. I feel like I should continue to learn about BPD and continue to work on it, since it is relatively new to me.

I am sticking around for now until I feel like I am ready to move on, because once I do, I will be done for good. I wont do the back and forth thing to myself or to the kids. I also know that once I do leave, she is going to run and find validation in the arms of another man, and that is not something I can come back from, again. So when I'm ready to move on, its for good. That adds to the difficulty of trying to figure out when it is really over.

Thanks

[ArleighBurke]

IF it helps, I'm still unsure about staying as well. I've been married 17yrs and known about BPD for the past 3.

If we separate, it'll suck. There's no debating that. Custody alone will be "fun".

Right now, I'm working on ME. I'm improving my validation skills. I'm improving my emotional health. I'm improving my physical health. Being emotionally strong can be very difficult when your BPD is dumping heavy emotion on you every day - but it's a great thing to do. To be able to strong despite what your surroundings are is a valuable personal skill that I want to master.

As well, i have found that learning validation has greatly improved my relationship with my kids. I am able to "hear" them a lot better than before and I feel closer with them. I'm also able to teach my kids how to validate each other, and their mum.

I'm also making MYSELF the best i can. If I think I'll be a single daad at some point, then I need to be able to cook well, take care of the home, schedule, exercise and have hobbies. So I'm learning now!

And I can leave the "hard" decision until I am sure.

[Method]

Thanks again ArleighBurke. I noticed you didn't mention how working on yourself and validation skills have impacted your relationship with your pwBPD. How has it? Has it helped?

I can see 100% how it could improve your relationship with your kids. In fact, I used some of the skills I've learned this week with my sons just tonight.

Reading about validation was very convicting. I have been, by ignorance, a terrible partner to someone with BPD. I have been very invalidating throughout our entire relationship. It all makes sense now. I'm even disappointed it's taken me this long since the diagnosis to really dig in and learn about the disorder.

Thanks for your time.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Method,

OK, good, you know what you would like to see happen and you are in touch with your gut feelings, so that gives you an advantage going forward.  Also, you have confirmation from a professional that your W suffers from BPD, which is another huge clarification.  Many of us, like me, were just swinging in the dark for a long time with no awareness of BPD.  Agree w/AB about focusing on yourself and your needs.  Often we spend so much time caretaking the pwBPD that we neglect our own self-care, which I suggest is the place to start.

LuckyJim

[Method]

Thanks for the response and your time Jim. I will continue to work on myself.

When she says "she isn't fit to be in a relationship" - she is asking for validation! She is asking you to help her through her pain and guilt. How do you respond to her saying that?

What would be a good validating response to that? It is really hard to distinguish when she actually really feels a certain way. She's always lashed out verbally when she's upset, but then apologizes later and then says she didn't mean it. This time, she hasn't apologized and is sticking to it, being willful. I would like some insight and opinions on this.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, she also says she wants to do whatever she wants without having to answer to anyone, yet she is still running things by me. But there are times, where I can tell she is being willful, where she'll make it a point to tell me she is doing something without my approval.

Thanks!

[ArleighBurke]

When she says "she isn't fit to be in a relationship" - what is a good validating response?

I'm not quite sure. Perhaps: "It is difficult being in a relationship - and often we make mistakes. But it's how we work through those together that matters. I want to be with you - let's talk about this"

[Silveron]

Method,

  Your wife sounds like mine.  Mine hasn't cheated (at least I don't think she has) but has sabotaged the marriage in a number of ways.  When things got really bad we went to a psychologist.  :)uring the session (she talked about 50 mins of the hour we had) she actually said 'I don't know if I even love you anymore' and has said (when she was raging) 'I say I love you, just to keep you quiet'.  

  Anyway after the session, she saw me down and not talking.  She then came up and said 'You actually think I don't love you?' 'I said it because I'm pissed'.  I continued to stay quiet.  What she wanted and what I think your wife wants is a reaction.  Any reaction.  As long as she gets this reaction (good or bad) she still knows you are in this soap opera.

  What BPDs hate is when you give them the silent treatment.  When they eventually ask you what is wrong, the best thing to say is 'I need to think about things' and to not say another word.  I don't know if this is a good thing for them or not, but it stops the drama they put onto you for the time being.  

  A few weeks later after my wife gave up the counseling, I talked to the Psychologist.  I mentioned to her about these things she says when she's in this mood and the psychologist told me that if I were to actually leave and divorce that my wife would commit suicide.  

  You and I both need to look at ourselves and determine how much  are we willing to take?  Verbal, emotional, physical abuse, affairs, lying, covering up, etc... What happens to the bond?  I realize I can't hold onto my wife to save her from herself.  I cannot be her father.  Tired of being the emotional punching bag.  Tired of being responsible in her eyes for all her mess-ups.  It becomes depressing, emotionally exhausting.  We shouldn't have to pounce and devour every little scrap of so called 'love' they give us and then to top it off have them turn around and do something awful to us once again.

  This BPD is like a demon that will suck out the souls of the ones closest to them.

[Lucky Jim]

What she wanted and what I think your wife wants is a reaction.  Any reaction.  As long as she gets this reaction (good or bad) she still knows you are in this soap opera.

Agree, Silveron.  Any reaction will do!  My BPDxW used to bait, goad and bully me until she got a reaction (usually anger on my part), after which she could point at me and say, "See . . . "!  So tiresome.  LJ

[ArleighBurke]

Tired of being the emotional punching bag.  Tired of being responsible in her eyes for all her mess-ups.  It becomes depressing, emotionally exhausting.  We shouldn't have to pounce and devour every little scrap of so called 'love' they give us and then to top it off have them turn around and do something awful to us once again.

That's the tl;dr of loving a BPD isn't it. In many ways living with my BPD wife has made me so much more emotionally strong. It takes a lot of strength to withstand it all. And seeing her as a scared, tantruming 5yr old certainly helps... .

[Method]

Silveron,

Thank you so much for sharing. As weird as it sounds, it's comforting knowing I'm not alone.

What did the psych say about the outbursts? That is one of my fears is that I KNOW she will spiral out of control if I leave. But as you said, I can't be her father.

Sadly, I feel like I have to turn off my passion for our marriage and just focus on myself. ill continue to go to therapy, grow my knowledge and keep working on myself, and see where it leads.   Anymore insight from anyone is appreciated!

Thanks everyone,
Method

[ArleighBurke]

Sadly, I feel like I have to turn off my passion for our marriage and just focus on myself.

I think that's true and not true... .

I still love my wife. And I want to "whisk her off her feet" with passion often - but most of the time she will say no, feel bad, argue instead etc. I try to organise special dates with her but her criteria seems to be getting harder and harder as to what she'll accept. Little gifts or notes are hit and miss as to whether she'll appriciate them or not.

It feels one-sided. And often lonely.

But I refuse to turn it off. It's about ME, not her. It's about who *I* want to be. As hard as it is loving someone and not feeling loved or appriciated back, turning that off is denying part of who *I* am, and that's letting HER sickness control me.

So I made the choice - I need to be emotionally strong enough to keep trying yet accept whatever the outcome. I will still say loving things, give loving gifts, romance her and flirt. And when she doesn't reciprocate - I need to feel OK - accept that she's sick - feel sorry that she's in so much pain that she has to miss out on life - but KNOW that's it's not me. And in those 1 in 10 times when she appriciates it - that's good!

Yes it's hard - but I don't want to lose me. And I want to be the best Me I can be - so I need to also keep working on myself. If we do separate, then I will still have all the skills and behaviours i need to make sure my NEXT marriage is good.

[Overseas1899]

18 year marriage. Two awesome kids age 12&14. Finally came out of the confusion of wth this is 4 years ago. Someone told me it sounds like Bpd. I had no idea thisBPD world existed!  I started reading, getting the tools to deal with this, started focusing on myself becoming healthier emotionally and physically. The tools suggested on this site and in the books have made life 80% better but I now am full of resentment that I have spent so many years dealing with this. I stay for my kids - whether that is right or wrong - I don't know. I don't want them to have to deal with this 50% of the time on their own. And I stay for me - my parents divorced and I never ever wanted that for my children. Limbo. Wish I knew what to do. Don't want any regrets
We only get ONE life. No do overs. Hard to know what is the best decision.

Method - I agree you are not her father and none of us are responsible for other people 's actions. We don't want to make it worse but it's hard to know what someone would really do. For me, anything could happen with my uBPDh - very unpredictable. 

Method - things have improved since I started focussing more on myself. Hopefully they will for you too. It's difficult.

Although I would never cheat, I find myself thinking about other men that seem nice. I guess I fantasize about what a life would be like with someone else. Right or wrong - idk but it helps to take me away from this mentally sometimes.

I agree with most of what others have said on this thread. Know that you are not alone. Focus on your own needs as well as the tools written about here (whether you split or not, your children will always need some tools to help them with this) and life will improve.

[Silveron]

Silveron,

Thank you so much for sharing. As weird as it sounds, it's comforting knowing I'm not alone.

What did the psych say about the outbursts? That is one of my fears is that I KNOW she will spiral out of control if I leave. But as you said, I can't be her father.

Sadly, I feel like I have to turn off my passion for our marriage and just focus on myself. ill continue to go to therapy, grow my knowledge and keep working on myself, and see where it leads.   Anymore insight from anyone is appreciated!

Thanks everyone,
Method

Her outbursts is because of her low emotional IQ.  Just like a child not getting what they want, they will act out.  You react to it by telling her 'I will talk to you later, once you calm down' and then walk away.  If you say anything else, you get pulled into the vortex of abuse.

At some point you have to come to terms that her mental well-being is not your responsibility.  If you don't, good chance you'll drive yourself into a depression, since she will point out and put you down for every single time for letting her down (in her own head). 

IMO when you have to be part-time councilor and part-time dad to your wife, it doesn't leave any room to be a husband which slowly erodes the bond.  Honestly if it wasn't for my 8 year old daughter, I would be out of my marriage.

[Lucky Jim]

Totally agree, Silveron.

Right, you avoid the BPD vortex by refusing to engage.  Otherwise, you can get mired in the BPD quicksand, from which some never emerge.

An adult, as you note, is responsible for his/her own well-being, and it's unwise to take on the mental health of a pwBPD.  I agree, Care taking a pwBPD can lead to depression, in my experience, due to the feelings of helplessness that arise in the face of an extremely complex disorder.

Your final point is well taken: in the course of disengaging, one's emotions turn elsewhere, with the result that the r/s can become a union of strangers, at which point love dies, in my experience.

Great summary!
LuckyJim

[Method]

Very appreciative of all the feedback. I find myself sometimes looking for "THE" answer. I realize that isn't going to happen.

Another thing I realized, an example, yesterday she had an "off" day. Didn't rage or outburst, but was detached and distant. Of course, I'm thinking it's me or something I did. I have to understand and realize that this isn't the case! I asked her if she was ok and she admitted that she was anxious about a lot of day to day things and just felt off. Talked about her stresses for a brief minute and then she wanted to move on and be "normal". I noticed and appreciated her efforts in attempting to be happy and spend some QT together before going to sleep.

One thing that is discouraging to me is the feedback or end result here is mostly negative. That is not very encouraging to me. Where are the success stories? I've read/watched people that have recovered from BPD. I read somewhere the remission rate is high and relapse rate is low. Has anyone experienced this? I am hopeful as we were happily married for several years.

Thanks,
Method

[Silveron]

Unfortunately there is no 'answer' to all of this.  The readings I've done, is that it's basically incurable.  DBT is suppose to help but it doesn't cure it.  If your spouse isn't in DBT or at least counseling then don't expect anything to change.  My wife started counseling and then quit.  She only went for a month or so and when I asked why she quit her answer was 'She should have fixed me by now'.  Found out the psychologist was trying to ask questions about her past and she couldn't handle it.

Maybe some others can reply here on success stories.  It would be nice to hear something positive for once, you get sort of numb to the realization how bleak it's going to be.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Great thinking on this thread.  Thanks.  I appreciate everyone's comments.
There's so much to say, but, I can't quite do it in one post!
There are many of us sitting on the fence for one reason or another.

First off, I am glad you could identify and say what you want to happen.  It is noble to forgive and be so willing to bury the past and move forward.  I commend you.  I think that is fueled by your remaining love for your wife.  That also is admirable.  In contrast, I would be silently happy if my wife had an affair and admitted it.  I think I'm just looking for justification to end the marriage and I can't think of something better than _her_ actions doing something that's _her_ "fault."  I've been blamed for everything in the marriage for so long, I would enjoy the respite.

I will say the gut is rarely wrong.  At least for the moment when it 's time to decide.  I believe the heart is often wrong though, so make sure you're distinguishing the two body regions

I understand that you have been reading and figuring out BPD.  When I started my journey of learning about BPD it was like finally having a rule book that applied, like turning the lights on in a dark room, like having all my empty questions answered.  It was amazing to feel not alone, and not crazy, and not to blame.  Keep up the study and self-improvement.  Although you cannot change or cure your wife, by you changing yourself, it will change the marriage.  I have come very far in my ability to handle people with BPD, and thereby it makes the relationship better.  I think it's a little unjust that in my case the victim had to find the cure, and do all the work, but, that's the way it is with these things.  

There is another temptation, or tendency in us to still overreach in our "goodness" in dealing with BPD.  We have learned to empathize, validate, keep boundaries, suffer in quiet desperation, for so long that we may find the we have passed our lives doing far too much for our BPD.  I tend to excuse my wife and others under the pretense that she is a BPD sufferer.  I think many of us feel some sympathy for our BPD partner, and we put up with far more than we should because our partner is ill, malformed, abused in the past, or what have you.  With that in mind, I will ask you to examine your marriage, as a marriage.  Let's pretend for a minute your wife doesn't have a medical excuse.  Bearing in mind, that her core personality is formed and nigh unchangeable, are you willing to put up with her for the rest of [time]?

For me, infidelity is an almost certain deal breaker in marriage.  I can keep my pants on, I expect my spouse to do the same thing.  I don't buy the common excuses.  But, that's me.  I can also forgive, but learn and end it.  

Remember though, that the first time you cheat is the hardest time.  Each time later becomes easier and easier, until it's a habit.  If you stay with her, I would recommend STD testing for both of you, and use some STD protection if / when you choose to have sex again.  

I wish you the best.  Keep walking towards the light!