Potential Email to Biblical Counselor

[formflier]

This is what was sent... .and what was received.

Thoughts?

FF

Pastor (name),

I had not read FF wifes's document when I responded that I understood your instructions about using biblical conference table.   Since reading FF wife’s document I have been prayerfully considering my response to clarify the situation and lead in my marriage.

I am puzzled by the absence of any mention of FF wife’s presumption of my affairs with women and her seeming persistent belief that I am a fundamentally dishonest person.  Although this was not addressed in your email, I hope this can be a topic we spend significant time on in our next session.

FF wife seems to have been crying out in pain many times in the past several years, and I cannot see how I am serving her well as a christian husband if I am not part of understanding and healing this pain in an immediate manner. 

Can we consider pause in our current counseling plan to address FF wifes’s cries of pain?  This has come up repeatedly since 2009 and I honestly believe it is a block to us moving forward.

Several days prior to FF wife submitting her homework document, FF wife and I had a significant and healing conversation pertaining to the movie American Sniper.  I believed, and FF wife expressed verbally, that the conversation was healing and brought us closer.  This makes the return of accusations all the more perplexing and reinforces my belief in the immense pain FF wife must be experiencing.


Sincerely,

FF

FF,
 
You have the tools to handle this before we meet. You need to sit down and listen carefully to FF wifes’s understanding of what she means then…

1)      You should rehearse back to FF wife your understanding of her concerns.

2)      You should clarify any factually incorrect understandings.

3)      You should confess/repent of any past sin that is undealt with (if any)

4)      You should be willing to change any needless behavior tendencies that may make it easy for FF wife to struggle with trusting you.

5)      This write this out for me to see.

 
I don’t think you have to wait until Monday night.

[HopefulDad]

Regarding your BMC's response:

#1 is good.  Mirroring back her words and concerns shows you are listening to her.

#2 is where you really need to apply some of the tools learned here.  Instead of cross-examination of the alleged facts (e.g. you have emotional affairs behind her back), practice S.E.T.  Avoid lawyering her at all costs, else she'll dig in her heels.  Even if after S.E.T. she still believes her set of facts, just make a note of it in your writeup.  Don't press the issue and instead save it for discussion with the BMC.

#3 is good as long as there is sin.  Don't apologize for doing nothing just to make her feel better.

#4 can have a wide interpretation.  Is keeping your email password private a "needless behavior tendency" in his eyes?  Anyway, once you have a handle on what her concerns really are regarding trusting you, spend time self-reflecting and see if indeed there areas in which you can improve.

Sounds like if you do his homework here, you'll get to address these things in the next session.  Not bad.

[formflier]

Pretty much went as per HopefulDad's suggestion:

1.  Listened and mirrored.  She went on tagents about random stories but came back to "you have a track record of getting emotionally involved with other women".  She confirmed I had it right.  Went to number 2.

2.  We clarified that there are no facts in dispute, that it is all a matter of opinion.  She agreed.

3.  I asked her if there was anything for me to confess or repent of.  She rattled on about "it's all been talked about with previous biblical counselors (colleagues of the guy we are at now... years ago)"  I gently redirected a couple times about an answer and also said I was fine going on with out an answer.  Gave long pause.  Went to number 4. 

4.  I asked her if there was needless stuff.  She seemed to scrunch up and get weird, said she would be back in minute.  Left room.  She apparently said something to a kid... hard to tell.  She came back.  I waited for a few minutes.  She still looked weird.  Given previous dance of trying to nail her down... .I was not going to follow up. 

I said I'll go write this up for submission and I thanked her for her time.  As I was leaving the room she started hollering at me.  ":)id I answer?"  My  response "nope". 

I left room and she stayed in bedroom (where we met) and ranted for a while.  Opened the door so I could hear "some leader you are" (same as last rant a few months ago).

I didn't react.  A few minutes later she breezes in the room and starts prattling on about unconfessed sin.  I said calmly "I consider the conversation closed, the drive by conversation style doesn't work for me"

She storms around room some and starts saying that "You are upset and angry that I had the gall to bring it up"

I stood to leave room, heading towards our bedroom.  I said "FF wife, since you are not God and you don't know my heart, it is a sin for you to tell me my emotions.  Please stop it.  Stop telling me my emotions"

She says she didn't do that.  I said "Stop it" a few more times as I walked to bedroom as she got louder and louder yammering on behind me. 

I shut and locked the door.  She stood outside saying something about my Dad and the van... .some rant.  Luckily most was unintelligible. 

I finally had enough of listening to it through the door and said "Please stop yelling at me through the door"

In a mocking tone she said "gladly honey, let me know when you are feeling better"  She went out the front door, into car.  VAAAAAROOM away from the house she went.

I have a bit of a "whatever" attitude.  I have another psychologist appointment tomorrow morning.

Interesting evening.

FF

[formflier]

The previous biblical counselors wrote down that

"Based on how hard FF wife pressed on the affair thing, they "thought" that I must have had an affair.  However, despite repeatedly pressing FF wife for evidence, none was produced.

My wife is inferring that I "admitted" to an affair in counseling with them.  If such had happened... .they would have put it in their notes.

These same biblical counselors used the term "paranoia" when describing her behavior.

So... .their write-up will come up again... .I guess.  I'm not sending anything else until after my P appointment.

Sigh... .

FF

[empath]

FF, is she safe to drive in that condition?

[formflier]

FF, is she safe to drive in that condition?

I would not recommend it... .

My answer is no... .but not sure if I am entirely objective. 

FF

[empath]

Does she have any children with her?

[formflier]

No

[empath]

I'm relieved and glad that you have a P who understands what is going on. 

Lack of trust is the issue my husband too, and it comes with craziness in different areas. They have to come up with a reason for their emotions - so that they can make sense of it.

[HopefulDad]

I said I'll go write this up for submission and I thanked her for her time.  As I was leaving the room she started hollering at me.  ":)id I answer?"  My  response "nope". 

I left room and she stayed in bedroom (where we met) and ranted for a while.  Opened the door so I could hear "some leader you are" (same as last rant a few months ago).

I didn't react.  A few minutes later she breezes in the room and starts prattling on about unconfessed sin.  I said calmly "I consider the conversation closed, the drive by conversation style doesn't work for me"

She storms around room some and starts saying that "You are upset and angry that I had the gall to bring it up"

So be sure to write down to what she is referring to in #3 and #4 since you know the history (that you mentioned in the follow-on post).  Gives you some good stuff to discuss in your next BMC session.

I stood to leave room, heading towards our bedroom.  I said "FF wife, since you are not God and you don't know my heart, it is a sin for you to tell me my emotions.  Please stop it.  Stop telling me my emotions"

She says she didn't do that.

This is something that I suggest handling a bit differently.  Telling her that she sinned only amps up her emotions and gets her defensive, which you saw when she denied doing so.  Instead of interpreting her behavior as sinful or not, make a note of these instances and in your next BMC session, ask him in front of her, "She continued to tell me my emotions, which I believe God would find sinful.  Do you agree?" And let the BMC tell her that it's sinful.  If this is a repeat performance, maybe he'll even say something like, "FF wife, we've talked about this before, yet you continue to do so.  Why is that?"

I finally had enough of listening to it through the door and said "Please stop yelling at me through the door"

This is better... .focusing on behavior.  "Stop yelling" is a lot more black and white than "Stop telling me my emotions".

Anyway, it looks like you have some good material to cover in your next session.

[formflier]

I agree about handling the emotion thing differently... .however.

Note for all reading this (many techniques below are NOT the way bpdfamily and many mental health providers recommend dealing with this kind of thing)

We are using and I have agreed to use BMC for our marriage issues.  The Bible is clear about confronting sin.  This is a well worn path.  BMC has clarified and we both agree that we don't know each others emotions, thoughts and motivations.

The quick version is to confront, listen for repentance, if there is repentance then there is healing, if there is no repentance then it is no longer my job to convince her of her sin.  It's the Holy Spirits job.

While I had no idea it would come to that, my understanding of his statement that "I have the skills... ." would be appropriately interpreted as "Use what I have taught you... "

Had I devolved into a "yes you did sin" " no I didn't", then I believe I would have been outside his teaching.

Certainly he will have a chance to clarify his instructions and teaching. 

Yes, there will be a lot to talk about. 

If it comes down to it, I have the entire exchange recorded.  I'm certainly not going to offer that in the early stages.

FF

[formflier]

She is still pretty off this morning.

We tried and failed to have bible study as a family.  She was mocking, I asked her to speak in private, pretty typical BPD stuff.

Twisting and all that.

I refused to go more than 1 circle in any of her silliness.  

Staying away from her while I sort this out.

Unfortunately, this morning stuff she kept opening the bedroom door, IMO, so the kids could hear.  Then she would walk around the house ranting so they could hear.  She was ranting about me staying calm... .yet... .I was calm and she was ranting.

Uggg... .I hate this stuff.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, this is the mental illness.


I don't know if this is anything that can be controlled on your part- the inability to handle uncomfortable emotions. While I think that the methods you are using can reduce your part in the drama, this aspect of your wife is a part of BPD. I think you hope to suppress it, diminish it, but I have observed this as possibly making things worse.

From observing my mother ( who I think is more affected than your wife, but seems to have a similar tendency to think of herself as victimized by us through real and/or imaginary ways we have wronged her)- that when she gets in that space, she is dysregulated and absolutely convinced we have done something wrong. These strong emotions seem to take over her sense of reasoning at the moment. She seems to have little sense of control of what she says. But feelings don't last- and when the moment is over ( it may take a while) , she is then at a point where she can reason. Sometimes I think she even feels embarrassed or remorseful afterwards, but to admit this would trigger shame. So instead, she acts nice again, attempts to reset things to good.

Looking at this through the rules of the Bible, I see her as basically ethical in the grand scheme of things. Even when upset, she doesn't rob banks, physically harm people ( thank goodness) but she's done numerous things that one could call "sin". But is it "sin" if someone is mentally ill? Personally, I don't like to see her through this perspective. There is a higher judge than me, and that judge made her as she is. Trying to get her to "repent" to me would lead to another dysregulation from shame. It would hurt her. What business do I have trying to judge her through eternal eyes?

To me, considering the mental illness, I have to look at some of the behaviors in a different way. Once dysregulations start, it seems they need to run their course. A main concern is to keep the person safe from harming themselves or others, and in the case of verbal output, this means protecting kids from verbal abuse. As to me, what she says is more about describing how she feels in the moment than an insult to me.

As to this "affair" that your wife brought up. Even if it is complete illusion, something about it is bothering her and it is unfinished business with her. Your response is that, since you didn't do it, you should not be accused of it. This is not your sin. Yes, that is true, but the BC is trying to bring this out- maybe just to hear what is going on with your wife, so perhaps he can get to her feelings about it. Maybe it would have been better for her to say " it felt to me like an affair" but if feelings are facts to her, she isn't going to word it that way.

Perhaps if you can step away from the sin model to letting her speak of her feelings with the BC, it may shed some light on the issue for her. Maybe if things were difficult in the marriage, she was jealous that it was easier for you to communicate with your coworker than with her. Maybe she felt you were spending so much time at work that you liked it better.

Maybe your email exchanged triggered feelings in your wife that your relationship with her was as relaxed as with your co-worker. It isn't cheating but somehow maybe it felt that way to her. Perhaps the BC is trying to get into these feelings. Maybe there are things to apologize for- not cheating, but perhaps not being as attentive.

[formflier]

I agree with all of that... .and will recommend that.  But I am not going to agree to behave one manner in counseling and then do another. 

I think that would further confuse the BC. 

I don't think I would be able to live the life of blowing off BC and doing it my way.  I think he would figure it out and that it would push my wife further into a whacky world.

Definitely will discuss this today with P.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Snipped segments... .

Note for all reading this (many techniques below are NOT the way bpdfamily and many mental health providers recommend dealing with this kind of thing)

The quick version is to confront, listen for repentance, if there is repentance then there is healing, if there is no repentance then it is no longer my job to convince her of her sin.  It's the Holy Spirits job.

Had I devolved into a "yes you did sin" " no I didn't", then I believe I would have been outside his teaching.

Certainly he will have a chance to clarify his instructions and teaching.

You acknowledge that the BMC method and the mental health community are at odds on how to deal with this, so while I don't suggest going completely off script from your BMC's teachings, I do suggest making a minor tweak in how you "confront sin".  I suggest this because the BMC method actually did devolve into "yes you did sin" "no I didn't" right off the bat, but at least you were smart enough to disengage immediately.

Rather than tell her "you sinned", I suggest saying something like, "We've talked about this with the BMC before and I think this telling me my emotions might fall under 'sinning' in God's view.  Would you agree?"  That way you give her a chance to decouple the facts (telling you your emotions) and judgment (she sinned).  First focus on the facts, hopefully getting her to acknowledge that she indeed did tell you your emotions.  If she does that, but then denies sinning or doesn't think it falls under being sinful, then simply say, "Well, I think this is something we can discuss in our next BMC session."

Always remember that the bottom line is you are trying to save your marriage.  The BMC is a means to that end and I do think he has value in keeping her engaged with a 3rd party because that's what she will need long term.  But if you follow his instructions to the letter, you could be making things worse, self-sabotaging that bottom line.

And let's not kid ourselves: You already don't follow his instructions to the letter.  You routinely challenge him.  For example, he could tell you tomorrow that you should be sharing your email password and you would say no dice.  And you make these decisions knowing what he doesn't know.  I suggest continuing that path and making further tweaks as needed.

[formflier]

Correct!  I should have clarified that I will follow his methods vice directives.  He has generally been pretty good about giving us structure vice "give your wife a $100 bill " type of direction.

And... .yes... .I resist direction, especially that which I know to be harmful.

Good session with P... .working through that now.

FF

[motherhen]

FF, I've read some of your past posts and you seem like a person who places high value on logic and reason. It sounds like you would like vindication from her unfounded accusations. Understandably so.

While I certainly understand the need to remain calm during her episodes, I think that you may be approaching it so rationally that it is sort of shooting yourself in the foot so to speak. Because your responses are so devoid of emotion, it's almost an invitation to ramp it up in order to elicit some sort of emotional response to her out of control emotions. I don't have BPD, and I would find your responses invalidating and upsetting. I wouldn't feel safe knowing my feelings would be examined for factual accuracy. Ask yourself is it more important to be right or to preserve the relationship?

In the moment she has all the logic and reason of a 3 year old whose cookie is broken in half. You can choose to ignore the 3 year old and walk away or you can choose to reflect that the child feels sad and offer a hug or something to help the child through these unreasonable emotions. Attempting to apply logic with a child who developmentally is pre-logic or a dysregulated BPD is an exercise in futility.

I'm a newbie and don't have all the answers. I can't help but wonder how she would respond if you expressed empathy first and saved the logic for calm moments. You seem like a very patient man, how can you make that work to your advantage while remaining true to who you are?

[formflier]

There is a certain level of dysfunction at which I would rather not preserve the relationship, that's one of the reasons I'm on deciding.

My goal is to preserve it, but... .definitely not at all costs.

I do understand what you say and yes, logic and reason are huge with me.

FF

[Notwendy]

She isn't logical though - she is who she is.

Can she be herself with you?

I am a little bit of both. I can be logical, but I believe emotions are important too.

My mother is illogical and mostly emotional. Yet, when someone listens to her, really hears her, she just melts. I think she craves this. Your wife might too.

I wonder what allowing her emotions to have some space ( I agree not take over) would do?

[formflier]

Can she be herself with you?

 

It kinda depends on which self shows up.  If it is the "I know what you are thinking and feeling one... "... .then the answer is no,  she can't be.  I will head other places and let her do her thing.

If she speaks kindly and is the "fun one", then yes she can be herself.

There were some more emails that flew around today, I suppose the only good news is that on Monday the counselor wants to "meet and assess where we are at" and figure out a way forward.
 
He did "point out" to my wife that if she has no solid examples she can explain to me of "inappropriate emotional connections" that it is impossible for me to understand or make any kind of corrective action.

My wife said she would make a list of the things I have done that indicate an "emotional connection".  This should be interesting.

FF

[Lilyroze]

  FF,

In the role you were for work in Naval, you had to have logic, reason, be capable, be able to say No or why. Lives, safety and your job depended on it. You couldn't just be a yes man. You also had to be able to communicate with everyone and anyone, I am assuming in your role. You had to have authority but respect for others.

Now your wife is not going with reason or logic. It seems perhaps in getting married her authority was over her children, and those she taught. So she could always be in the right. I am not sure of other job capacities she had. No matter what the kids had to like what she said. So there didn't have to be a lot of give and take or logic. Just pure emotions, not sure if this might be perhaps the case. Then she has a hard time being wrong, even to herself illness aside.Pride and the illness. If she could put half that energy into your good part of marriage you both would be over the moon or at least happy... .

There are many thought patterns, boundaries in everyones lives, what some perceive as an emotional attachment many don't. There is many articles on how social media now plays a huge role in hurting many marriages. Emotional affairs and attachments can hurt more then physical and more damaging. Why? Well you are sharing intimate parts of you that spouse or loved one feels and should be reserved for.

Many blur the line now with friends that really have no intention of being friends, if even in the other persons mind they are helping, letting someone vent or intrigued. If another party has different intentions sometimes our spouses or loved ones can see right through what we don't.

 Psychotherapist Dr. Mary Jo Rapini argues that online cheating fits into the category known as an emotional affair. While some experts have distinguished online cheating from emotional cheating, Dr. Rapini says that it shares the same characteristics.

Dr. Rapini also stresses that in an emotional affair, including virtual affairs, the violated spouse may experience the severity of emotions associated with losing a loved one. "They may experience symptoms like denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance and distrust. The victim of the affair may become obsessive about the details surrounding the discovery or the events surrounding the affairs."

I know this is not the case with you, I presented it so when she presents her thoughts, see why she might have felt that in your marriage.

If one does not do these and is accused it is hurtful and can wreck a marriage as well.

Good thing is you know her illness, know the paranoia. So don't let it destroy you. If something another did and you didn't realize it hurt her, address so you can move forward.

If not show her that there is no basis you are there with her, you have 8 children, are in counseling, spending time effort and money to be there. You love is with her in her heart. I know you have said many times, but when you said something she has felt since 2009 good now let it be addressed. Show her with her, 8 children, work, counseling,working on  you, the marriage, you don't have time... . Tell her no real woman would want a man devoted to his wife, children and in counseling for them and you only want a real woman her. Flaws and all you both are not perfect but you love. In your words, thoughts or with counselors help maybe.

Also with counselors help maybe show the different roles you both had in life that led you to talking or helping others more then her, and if she perceived different you are sorry. They are not important she is and you won't do that again. It is about saving your marriage, your love, your relationship, your trust, your intimacy.

One thing that might help her understand is just letting her get out, you saying I didn't know that made you feel that way or I should not have approached it in that way, but it was not intentional nor was it against our vows.

Sorry she still can't seem to get if you didn't love her you wouldn't be there trying so very hard.

Read my emotional vs logic thread as well in dealing with her.

[formflier]

I should clarify that this particular issue has come up in every counseling situation since 2009. 

The allegation has been thoroughly vetted and she came to a place in most of the counselings where she said there was no emotional affair and she could see how she misinterpreted.

Then she would act as if she never said that in new counseling... .start the cycle over again.

I have never been accused of an affair with someone I was actually attracted to.  Yes, like any guy I have had attractions or feelings come up and when that happens, I keep space. 

FF

[Lilyroze]

That is so awful truly. Hang in there, hopefully all the counselors, emails going back and forth and patience can help you deal with her and her illness, with the situation.

[Notwendy]

"Emotional connections" can be misinterpreted. BPD is a disorder that affects the most intimate of relationships. Also consider projections. PwBPD may feel more comfortable in superficial relationships than with an intimate one like marriage.

We aren't islands. We can, and will connect with other people, but not all connections are infidelity. I know that you know the difference, and that to be faithful to a marriage, one has to have strong boundaries.

There are such things as working relationships, and they can include some kind of connection. I don't expect my H to work with someone for years and not care about them to some extent. However, it was hard for me to see just how nice and relaxed he could be with his co-workers and triggered/angry with me. Once we were out- he was giving me the ST over something. We ran into his secretary and he was all smiles and pleasant with her, then back to the ST with me. I recall wishing he would be as nice to me as he was to her.
But this isn't infidelity. It was an example of how our intimate relationship was the place for anger and projection. To some degree, we all are more polite and pleasant when we are at our professional best. It was that this contrast between how he acted with his secretary and then with me was large.

I too can behave differently with others. When I asked if your wife can "be herself" - I have found that it is hard to be ourselves in our marriages- it goes both ways- people walking on eggshells. My sponsor observed that my voice changes when my H calls on the phone. I become subdued, more careful. He is aware of that as well. If he hears or sees me "being me" with someone else male or female- it is upsetting to him. As a result, I do tend to speak/email to others in private, not because I am doing anything wrong but because of the potential to misinterpret the situation. Then - the need for privacy bothers him too.

One time we attended a get together with a family friend I have known since childhood. I think of this person as a brother. He is happily married and we attended as families- spouses, kids. Afterwards my H became enraged at me over the relationship. I was completely taken aback- how on earth could I have done anything wrong by speaking to him in the presence of our spouses and children? But I was able to hear that it was my ease of being- my being myself- and the presence of a sibling like connection/affection that was painful for him.

The e mail issue may be from 2009, but you didn't stop being human, or interacting with others and possibly even emotionally connecting with others. While that isn't infidelity, it may be an ongoing trigger. While you see the event as a single issue that was resolved, your wife's fears and ways of interpreting things are continuous.

My solution is to be more "myself" with my H and with co-dependency help, I have been able to do so. That isn't easy. As to accusations, if I know in my heart that I have been faithful, then I don't react to accusations with defensiveness.

[MaybeSo]

I do understand what you say and yes, logic and reason are huge with me.

And of course, logic and reason, are all left brain generated, frontal cortex generated, and have nothing to do with bodily felt emotions that are triggered by relational trauma and our past painful experiences.   Our culture eschews and devalues emotions, and clings to the life boat of logic and reason, ignoring that the reason we cling so tightly to logic and reason is to sooth our fears and protect ourselves from the messy and complex internal world of emotions, our own and others,  that we don't understand, that leaves us feeling like we can't get it right now matter how smart we are, no matter how profound our logic based arguments.   Even with a strict adherence to logic and reason, our fear of the unknown is running the show, our fear creates an over reliance on logic/reason to protect us... .and we are met with great success with this focus especially in certain careers, but the same expertise and reliance on logic and reason actually produces more discord and disconnect w/n interpersonal relationships that involve intimacy and the ability to deeply feel and deeply understand another person's private internal experience.   Logic and reason are tools.  Imperfect in their own way as is any tool.  And, logic and reason are not the right tool for every life problem and will actually get in the way of any work that needs to be done in the area of deep fears and deep private vulnerability and pain.  

Your wife is who she is.  She has deep-seated fears regarding trust.  This is deep, private, internal, and very, very vulnerable.  It represents something of huge value to her, HUGE.

We either empathize with those fears, knowing that inside of her where these fears live... .they are REAL... .or we don't.

You aren't going to logic your way though this with her.  Not in a million trillion years.

The only possible way this has a chance to become more integrated, is with a deep, empathic understanding of her felt, internal private logic, and a sensitivity to her private logic w/out "walking on eggshells" or without defense or making her wrong or you right... .and w/out a stance of fighting this so it will go away.  It won't go away, it can only be more or less integrated and digested.  You will never prove through logic and reason that her internal felt experience is not real and therefore a non-issue. You have not cheated on her and her real internal world still tells her that she may be in danger of being hurt or betrayed when she loves someone and makes herself vulnerable ... .the way she has in the past or has seen others be hurt in the past, probably when very young. THAT is real.  It is as real as her arm or her leg.  You are never going to argue it away.  Ever.  A deep heartfelt understanding of her fears, with reasonable and prudent sensitivity, and kind boundaries... .might bring you through to a more integrated experience as her partner.  

If this is personalized and faught as though there is a battle to win, she's wrong, I'm right, I have the facts, she doesn't,  you will make more solid her felt experience that you are not trustworthy, b/c you show over and over again that you can't "get" why her fears are real to her and why her pain is real to her inside.   Even if you are the most faithful man in the world, existentially we all must deal with the possibility of betrayal.  All of us must deal with that fear.   For some, b/c of previous traumas that inform core beliefs that can make those fears more acute and more easily triggered... .this is a huge sore spot, an open wound that hurts with even the slightest unintentional brush.  That is part of your wife, part of her past experience, part of her private internal logic that makes sense based on HER perspective of the world seen through her eyes since she was old enough to see... .it is a part of her whether you accept it or not.  

You will have to put logic aside for any hope in shifting this to a healthier place.   Logic is not your friend with this kind of thing.

[formflier]

And... .Biblical Marriage Counseling is now over.

I'll make a separate thread about that.  What is clear is that the counselor declared me "unteachable" when I would not agree or go along with his direction on properly handling verbal abuse.

The quick version. (words from my counselor)  My walking away and going to another room is selfish.  I need to think about loving my wife vice protecting myself.  Jesus was abused and since we are supposed to be like Jesus, if "taking" abuse is what is required to properly love my wife and "live with her in an understanding way"... .then that is what I am called to do.

I was incredulous.  Remembered a word track from my P.  I asked if he could tell me what that would look like.

He described getting yelled at and that the response would be to lovingly embrace my wife and ask her what I can do to love her.  If she gets louder I should ask her to pray... .and keep doing this... regardless of what my wife does.

He then said that since I outweighed my wife by over twice... .I was in no real danger.

I was speechless... .Then asked him to put that in writing.  He refused.  I said no.  He ended counseling after that.  Now has been sending us both a bunch of emails that point the finger at me.

My take is that he was worn out with us and was looking for a reason.  He is probably used to "compliant" people just accepting whatever he says.

FF



 

[Notwendy]

Maybeso- I wish there was a "like" button for your post!

FF- that surely was a shock.

For now, I think letting the dust settle on both your feelings will help process what happened. It's going to be emotional for your wife if she put her hopes into this.

[motherhen]

How did your wife react to this?

Jesus often hid himself away from those who meant him harm. Sometimes He chose to endure abuse, but more often He kept some pretty awesome boundaries.

The only options are not subjecting yourself to abuse or "not living with her in an understanding way". (insert eyeroll here) If that's all he can see, he's not a very skilled counselor.

That's very unprofessional to be sending emails after ending the counseling relationship.

[empath]

Oh, my. That sounds rather dramatic and plays right into ffw's belief that you are the problem.

He has some bad theology; there are plenty of Bible verses that say to distance yourself from people who are verbally abusive. The tools that he has are talk, read your bible, pray, and love (the 'be nice' version). You weren't going along with his plan, so... . 

Lovingly embracing someone who is yelling and upset with you might be interpreted as physical abuse, especially if you are much larger than the other person. I think you were wise to say no.

There's going to be fall out, though.

[HopefulDad]

And... .Biblical Marriage Counseling is now over.

The bad: I hope that wasn't your last tether to your wife seeking her own counseling.

The good: Amateur hour is over.