Talking to his therapist

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Quick background: uBPDh has been seeing a therapist (psychologist) for about a year and a half now. It started as a result of a physical abuse incident and his experience a deep depression. He has been on ADs since then which seem to help his impulsiveness a bit. He is aware of the abuse in the past, but he thinks that he is not abusive now. He feels disconnected from me and has talked with his therapist about this as well as about making plans for separation. (he told me this last week, but I had suspected it)

My experience is that he continues to be verbally and emotionally abusive. If I express a need as in "I need ___ ", he claims I am being manipulative and controlling. He claimed that our daughter's birthday party was 'not a real birthday party'.  I don't like to be abused, so I don't want to do things with him.

That brings me to the new development: His therapist is puzzled as to why I am reluctant to do marriage counseling as he claims that he is not abusive at the current time. She thinks this would be perfectly appropriate for a marriage in which the partners were feeling disconnected. He had an appointment on Friday in which he suggested that she talk to me about my 'feelings'; she said that she was going to suggest it if he hadn't. He signed the release forms and gave me her cards when he got home.

So... .  Inviting people into the craziness of our relationship seems to be a theme for me the past several weeks. They get confused when they hear what is going on and how different my h's version of things is from my own - or they think he is lying. My sense is that right now he is extremely emotional (he says he's extremely lonely... .) and it is difficult for him to self-reflect in that state. He also believes abusers to be 'monsters', so he can't be one and rejects my description of his abusive behavior.

But, all that is analyzing him. I think I need to focus on my experiences and feelings in this process, right now. I'm trying to figure out how to describe the craziness in more specific terms to his therapist. There is the invalidation and abuse when I try to talk about my feelings or use good empathetic skills, and the push-pull chaos with a few areas in the past months. He believes I've said things that I haven't said.

How should I prepare for this type of situation?

[empath]

Quick background: uBPDh has been seeing a therapist (psychologist) for about a year and a half now. It started as a result of a physical abuse incident and his experience a deep depression. He has been on ADs since then which seem to help his impulsiveness a bit. He is aware of the abuse in the past, but he thinks that he is not abusive now. He feels disconnected from me and has talked with his therapist about this as well as about making plans for separation. (he told me this last week, but I had suspected it)

My experience is that he continues to be verbally and emotionally abusive. If I express a need as in "I need ___ ", he claims I am being manipulative and controlling. He claimed that our daughter's birthday party was 'not a real birthday party'.  I don't like to be abused, so I don't want to do things with him.

That brings me to the new development: His therapist is puzzled as to why I am reluctant to do marriage counseling as he claims that he is not abusive at the current time. She thinks this would be perfectly appropriate for a marriage in which the partners were feeling disconnected. He had an appointment on Friday in which he suggested that she talk to me about my 'feelings'; she said that she was going to suggest it if he hadn't. He signed the release forms and gave me her cards when he got home.

So... .  Inviting people into the craziness of our relationship seems to be a theme for me the past several weeks. They get confused when they hear what is going on and how different my h's version of things is from my own - or they think he is lying. My sense is that right now he is extremely emotional (he says he's extremely lonely... .) and it is difficult for him to self-reflect in that state. He also believes abusers to be 'monsters', so he can't be one and rejects my description of his abusive behavior.

But, all that is analyzing him. I think I need to focus on my experiences and feelings in this process, right now. I'm trying to figure out how to describe the craziness in more specific terms to his therapist. There is the invalidation and abuse when I try to talk about my feelings or use good empathetic skills, and the push-pull chaos with a few areas in the past months. He believes I've said things that I haven't said.

How should I prepare for this type of situation?

[ArleighBurke]

Are you going to the therpist alone? Or with H?

If alone, you may be able to say you suspect H has BPD. But unless the therepist knows what that is they will have no idea so it probably won't help.

If together, it's difficult. I would let the therepist drive the conversation - and be honest - but if H tries to gaslight or stray off topic or do any of the normal BPD conversation avoidance methods - you need to be able to bring it back. Either say "we can talk about that soon, but now we are talking about X". If he keeps avoiding things, then say to the therepist "this is an issue I have - that H avoids X" or similar.

Your BPDh wouldn't see that his emotional abuse is abuse at all. He is simply doing what he knows (BPD) and I don't think labelling it is helpful. Even in therepy, try not to label any actions he does. Instead of saying "he emotionally abuses me", say "I feel a lot of pressure to agree with him" or "when i disagree H becomes angry".

Also saying "I need you to... ." is not good - because that IS trying to make him change. Better is "When you do X, I am going to <go away><stop talking> etc". That (a boundary) is not telling him to do anything - it is telling him what YOU are going to do in response to him. If he chooses to change and not do that trigger then fantastic - but if he doesn't then that's also OK.

Hope this helps... .

[empath]

It sounds like they had talked about me coming in by myself and talking with her; that's the only way that I think this might work at this point. It seems to me that describing the experiences and feelings that I have would be better at this point.

I'm pretty good at boundaries being about what I am going to do for myself, so the discussions that we are having about me being controlling are not about boundaries. Those are about my needs for things like love, sleep, health, and I don't go into anything he needs to do because I don't intend to go there (and it derails before any further discussion happens). Of course, he thinks the boundaries that I've defined for myself are controlling him in some way. I've expressed them in a way that they are about my needs for myself, not about him or making him do anything, and he can't tell me what I'm trying to get him to do.

[empath]

I'm wondering what he has told his therapist about me; our discussion this morning included a bit about my 'unrealistic' expectations of human leaders (it's not true, and I didn't take that bait, I just looked confused).

[ArleighBurke]

I often wonder what opinion my BPD wife's friends have of me - given all the stories she's told them. I must be the most hateful, stupid, dumb husband.

I can only hope they are intellegent enough to suspend judgement until AFTER they meet me. I would hope a psychologist could to.

[schwing]

Hi Empath,

He is aware of the abuse in the past, but he thinks that he is not abusive now. He feels disconnected from me and has talked with his therapist about this as well as about making plans for separation. (he told me this last week, but I had suspected it)

Let me propose a possible scenario for what might be happening in your uBPDh's therapy sessions.

I wonder if during his therapy he has not projected all of his issues onto you. And he has his therapist subscribing to the idea that it is you who are abusive to him. I wonder if he has not attached himself to his therapist and so this way he can be "disconnected" from you without fear of abandonment.

My experience is that he continues to be verbally and emotionally abusive. If I express a need as in "I need ___ ", he claims I am being manipulative and controlling.

Sounds like his claims of manipulation and control is a projection?

That brings me to the new development: His therapist is puzzled as to why I am reluctant to do marriage counseling as he claims that he is not abusive at the current time. She thinks this would be perfectly appropriate for a marriage in which the partners were feeling disconnected. He had an appointment on Friday in which he suggested that she talk to me about my 'feelings'; she said that she was going to suggest it if he hadn't. He signed the release forms and gave me her cards when he got home.

I wonder if his therapist has not been sufficiently convinced by your uBPDh that you are the source of conflict in your marriage?

They get confused when they hear what is going on and how different my h's version of things is from my own - or they think he is lying.

This is a common issue I think. And your uBPDh's therapist has spent time predominantly with him?

My sense is that right now he is extremely emotional (he says he's extremely lonely... .) and it is difficult for him to self-reflect in that state. He also believes abusers to be 'monsters', so he can't be one and rejects my description of his abusive behavior.

Not only does he reject your description of his abusive behavior, he probably believes that it is you who are abusive through his re-imagining of your relationship.

But, all that is analyzing him. I think I need to focus on my experiences and feelings in this process, right now. I'm trying to figure out how to describe the craziness in more specific terms to his therapist. There is the invalidation and abuse when I try to talk about my feelings or use good empathetic skills, and the push-pull chaos with a few areas in the past months. He believes I've said things that I haven't said.

How should I prepare for this type of situation?

I wonder if you are not better served by having your own therapist?

To me, your situation is like your husband has had a year and a half to cultivate a relationship with an attorney. And now his attorney would like to talk to you. But this is after a year and a half of that attorney believing your husband at face value (unless she is aware that he may be suffering from BPD). You should have an attorney on your side, watching out for your interests.

In any case, I can see this situation as being stressful for your husband because now two people, who have spend a good deal of time interacting with him, will be comparing notes.  And who knows what that might reveal.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Cat Familiar]

"I often wonder what opinion my BPD wife's friends have of me - given all the stories she's told them. I must be the most hateful, stupid, dumb husband."

I had an interesting experience shortly after I divorced my ex-husband. I decided to do therapy so that I would never again get into a relationship like that. (And here I am, but at least my current BPD husband is a nice guy.) As part of my therapy, my therapist suggested that I attend a women's group that she held.

So I go to this group for several weeks and one night I'm talking to another member and she mentions she works at a facility for mentally handicapped adults. I ask her if she knows M., who happens to be my ex's girlfriend.

She turns white as a ghost and says, "WOW, are you that Cat?" I say, "Yes." Then she says, "I'll have to seriously re-think everything I've heard about you."

Some months later, my ex has broken up with M. and this woman tells me that now he's all over town trash talking M., just as he had done with me.

So, empath, will you be talking to his therapist again? If so, I would suggest that you mention that you suspect your H has BPD and that is based upon behaviors X, Y, and Z. I would lay it all on the line and mention that as you've come to this realization, you've learned that you've had to modify some of your own behavior and yet, the relationship has continued to be difficult.

Certainly a psychologist is versed in BPD and though it's likely he's tried to present a particular front to his therapist, it's very possible that she's seen through it somewhat. But as you know, BPD is typically displayed most to intimate partners and those who are more highly functional can often hide it to some extent.

[empath]

Certainly a psychologist is versed in BPD and though it's likely he's tried to present a particular front to his therapist, it's very possible that she's seen through it somewhat.

I think that is a possibility as well. As much as my h likes to think that he has presented a certain image to people, at some point, they see inconsistencies in that image. Some are quicker to see them than others, and people who interact at a more intimate level tend to see more.

Most counselors and therapists have a pretty good grasp on how people think and act and when something is not consistent, they think something is off. I've done this recently with some of my family that hasn't told me about something, but I have a general idea of what has happened from reading the signs and from what they have told me. Well, h is telling his therapist that he 'isn't abusive' toward me, but I'm not responding to his 'invitations' to do things with him. (he told me that she asked him more directly about the abusiveness... .) She 'joined' him in his confusion about this and agreed that it would be good to have my input.

The irony is that in a recent email to our pastor, I mentioned the idea that sometimes having a third party's perspective is helpful in assessing accuracy of a situation.

[teapay]

You probably got portrayed as as demanding, mean, condescending and overly neurotic.  Unless you can clearly dispell that portrait,  MC would likey go round and round going nowhere.  Even then most therapists would challenge your H disillusion in MC.  That is individual work.

Actually, we should have high standards for leadership.  Isn't that the point of leadership and the foundation of trust that is needed to lead?  I'm assuming he is talking about church leadership?  Shouldn't that be of the highest standard?  If not, I won't follow.  I'd find someone else meets those standards to follow.  Unless someone is a great con or has power it is hard to fake good leadership.  The truth will out.

[formflier]

I think you should go and "not hold anything back".  Trust that the T is professional and could benefit from a new perspective.

I would clarify at the start of the meeting the status of the r/s with the T.  In other words, the T is focused on your hubby and you are not the patient... .also that the marriage is not the patient.  That doesn't mean you won't consider advice.

Why would you NOT want to do MC?  I've obviously done a lot and "in general" feel that the working towards being more connected is good.  Yes... .I've had some detours here and there... .but in general... .I think it is good to talk.  Especially with a good T that can "rephrase" things for you.

"I need " phrases.  I would get away from need.  "I would like you to... ." (this is safe for someone to say no to).  Saying no to a "need" could be weird for him or contribute to feelings of inadequacy.

I think the best is "It would mean a lot to me if... ."  This focuses on the "connectedness" and the feelings, while still allowing them to say no.

Thoughts?

FF

[empath]

I'm assuming he is talking about church leadership?  Shouldn't that be of the highest standard?  If not, I won't follow.

Yes, it is church leadership and should be of highest standards, but it doesn't require perfection. He has a lot of baggage from his FOO as a pastor's kid where he was pressured to be perfect by his dad's position as a pastor. I think that there are certain standards of leadership, and there is room for human imperfections. Some of the standards are stated in writing along with the consequences of violations.

I would clarify at the start of the meeting the status of the r/s with the T. 

I was thinking about that too; I want to make sure what her goals are in this process.

Why would you NOT want to do MC?  I've obviously done a lot and "in general" feel that the working towards being more connected is good. 

I've been advised not to do that right now, and I don't really want to feel more connected with my h right now. A lot of our problems are that I have been too connected/responsible for his feelings. I'm also really good at understanding h and his issues; he spends a lot of time talking about his feelings and thoughts to me. I feel like his therapist rather than a partner; I reflect back content/feelings, ask questions, etc.

The "I need... ." statements are in response to his question "what do you need?" after he has talked about his needs at length. These are 'real needs' (love, being heard, etc.) that are not concrete actions and not really 'wants'. I have other ways to communicate the things that I would like him to do that are not "I need... ." ie, "it would really help me if you would... ." or "I would really like... ."  I'm pretty good at that; as long as it is a concrete thing that doesn't trigger his insecurities or require us to come to an agreement from differing positions, we are usually good.

[formflier]

Ahh... .who is advising against more connectedness? 


I think that a big goal for you should be to get rid of the word "need".

FF

[empath]

My counselor is advising against MC at this time.

If I try to answer the question of what I need with a "like" or "want", he pushes back to "what do you need?" I can't really respond with something that's not "need", so I respond with a basic human need.

[formflier]

My counselor is advising against MC at this time.

Has your counselor talked to his?  Perhaps they could compare notes and come up with a joint recommendation or a timetable... .or series of steps to get ready for MC.

If I try to answer the question of what I need with a "like" or "want", he pushes back to "what do you need?" I can't really respond with something that's not "need", so I respond with a basic human need.

This might be another place to have the counselors talk. 

I'm a language guy.  Way too many things are labeled "needs" that are wants.  Then, people "demand" that others "meet their needs" and then blast people for "failing" to meet their needs.

FF

[empath]

He has just agreed to let me talk with his counselor; there would have to be some other release forms and agreements for the counselors to talk amongst themselves. I doubt that he would be willing to let them talk to each other because mine knows about the abuse and wouldn't be manipulated by him.

Way too many things are labeled "needs" that are wants.

Oh, I agree. People generally don't understand the difference between needs and wants and mislabel each of them. That's why I'm super careful about what what is a need and what is not - as well as how they interact.