Progress

[ArleighBurke]

How is your conversational Validation?

I'm just wondering, because when she says

My x asked me not to go because she wanted some time apart.

You say you agreed not to go - being logic. Was there any exploring what she was feeling? Was there Validation?

Not sure if it'll help or not - it certainly sounds like she is very conflicted - but I just wanted to ask... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

We did discuss why she didn't want me to go, and I validated the valid; that she was overwhelmed, stressed, and feeling pressured by everything in her life, including me.

I did not validate things like her claiming other people as her friends and demanding that I have no contact with them; including people we had just met together. Or, that I am not allowed to attend public functions that she may or may not be at. I did try to get to the underlying fear there and validate that. She has completely dysregulated by that point and was not making any sense.

We did talk for a bit after that, and she started to calm down. the conversation ended with my wishing her a good time and hopes that she take care of herself. That was followed be a couple of text messages from her. That's when she apologized for being so mean and hurtful and telling me that she was just too overwhelmed to control her emotions.

Her friend, the one that I had been hanging out with, invited me to do something yesterday. I declined and explained why. His position is that he's not going to allow her to dictate who he is friends with and that I shouldn't either.  I agree. I need not reinforce her bad behavior.

At this point, I'm just proceeding under the notion that we have no future together as she said, while not completely closing the door on the idea that anything is possible.

I am giving her the time and space that she requested and am letting her deal with the problems that she has created that have overwhelmed her.

[Meili]

I'm not sure if this is encouraging or not, but I had a short convo with my x today. It was all very vague on both sides and centered around the changes I am making and happening in my life.

She told me that she doesn't see what is happening as a devastation, but rather a change, to view it all as a phoenix, and that it is her hope that I'll emerge brighter than before. I made a comment about it being painful and some things are lost along the journey. She told me that she thought about how much it has cost me to get where I'm going. She wouldn't elaborate on what she meant by that; just that she's sure that I know what it cost me more than she does. 

Perhaps I'm just being optimistic and grabbing a hold of all of the kibble that is thrown at me? I do view her acknowledging that there is no devastation, only change, her hope for my changing the things that cause me the most problems (namely, my lack of trust and insecurities), and her refusal to remind me that she ended things between us as good signs.

[Meili]

Well, NC has not worked. I contacted her for the first few days. Then I reminded myself that I must stop. She contacted me yesterday about our mutual friend. Yano, the one that is "her friend" and I'm "supposed to" stay away from. Apparently, his gf kicked him out and he needs a place to stay, so I guess that my x thought he could come and stay with me? This is very confusing to me since she doesn't want me talking to him or whatever.

So far, today, there is nothing but a comfortable silence between my x and me, and I don't see that changing. I'm actually ok with that though. It makes things easier.

[ArleighBurke]

Meili, I think you need to mentally "move on". Accept that the relationship is over. It may re-start - perhaps in the future you can reconcile - but for now assume it's over and move on emotionally.

[Meili]

I actually talked to my T about that very thing today, AB.

I told her that I thought that I was in denial about it ending, and she pointed out that I'm not because I am completely aware that it is over. I have zero expectation that there is going to be any sort of relationship.

I have continued to post in this thread, rather than on the detached board, because of how things have played out for her and me historically.

[Meili]

I have continued to post in this thread, rather than on the detached board, because of how things have played out for her and me historically.

And, history was proven itself true once again... .but with a twist this time.

After she told me that we have no future together, I have just done my own thing and stopped worrying about what she might think. Her "best friend" (who I've mentioned is a male) and I have been hanging out. (This is what caused her to dysregulate and tell me that we have no future.) I figured that it didn't matter if I hung out with him at this point because she was done with me. He and I went on a motorcycle trip last weekend. We've talked about another trip at the end of the month. Since I have to move, he's asked about my getting a bigger place and his being my roommate, etc. etc. etc.

Yesterday was his birthday and my x planned a small party. He invited me. It was nice. I was unintentionally a jerk to my x (still hurt about everything). I was just trying to joke around and have fun. It didn't come across that way though. I can see that now.

After the party, there was a lot of text messages from my x about how horrible I am. How badly I treat her. How my actions don't match my words. And, once again, how we have no future together.

I told her that I had to go to sleep. That if she wanted to talk more to contact me today and that if she didn't, I would accept that we have no future and act accordingly.

Well, she called me this morning. More about how I acted the night before, and she brought up that she doesn't like my hanging out with her best friend, or any of her friends really, even though they are the ones inviting me to do things. I'm "supposed to" politely decline.

I'm kind of at a loss with this. I feel compelled to stand my ground and be friends with whomever I choose, but at the same time, I know that doing that will just push her away.

It isn't fair to me or the people that want to hang out with and spend time with me  if I allow her to exercise control like that. But, is it really worth the risk of pushing her away?

[Lilyroze]

Meili,

The title progress is wonderful for the progress you have made to see the problem, try to address, try in the relationship, and look within. You have gotten counseling, saw your part in, tried with her and are nurturing yourself and soul now.

You are on this board so I won't say much. I will say when and if you move to another there are so many more beautiful things that can and will happen in your life. Not from her, or your past relationship or trying for one now but the work you are doing on and for you.

There is a situation called opiate-inducing experience of inconsistent reinforcement. Staying calls relentless hope.  Inconsistency is what keeps people going. "There’s something about the idea that maybe, maybe, if I just hang in there or I just change myself or just appreciate this nice stuff I get, I’ll get it all the time. But an intermittent relationship tends to be an intermittent relationship. I have never seen where somebody is on again/off again, and then is suddenly on all the time. In the very beginning, sure, but over time, no."

If someone were trying and not limiting your friendships so quite frankly they could tell the friend one thing and you another. There is so many factors here that aren't right. Whether a couple or not, you either involve other men as a woman or not. You try and are all in or not. Yes, trust might need to be built up again, friendship etc. but well... .There is many factors here pointing to controlling your friendships, your going places, and accepting not nice behavior. Yes, she can go on trips you are not a couple, and well she is. I am glad you have accepted her needs, wants ( as selfish as some are, whom are we to say).

But YOU, you deserve love, a good friendship, an equal partnership, a good life. There is someone waiting for you, or will find you if and when you let go of that which no longer serves you. Only you will know if you can, will or want to. Just realize that all changes and the love someone has for you to wait, or another to come will change as their path changes. Don't throw away waiting for a selfish person to change. They don't. I have followed your story for awhile now. My heart goes out to you and did her for awhile. BPD or not there is no excuse for lack of respect.

All the crying, blaming, upset for emotional affair, I understand and respect her feelings. But now not for what has been happening for months is involving other men on trips,etc. Your life your choice.

There’s some profound way in which you don’t feel loved here, but it’s very hard to be able to say, “You just don’t give me what I need. Or appreciate me. Or know me.” Or, “It doesn’t feel good for me to be with you.” It takes a long time to accept that how you feel about that is legitimate, and that the implication is that you don’t belong with this person.It was so much about not being able to give up because it felt like a failure, or like I was unlovable or had no power. The power you’re seeking is to make that person love you, to get the response you need. The moment when you really take in that it’s not possible to do that is the moment that you’re liberated.

This is the beautiful part. "The first thing you have to recognize is that this comes from someplace in you." It’s not just that this person is rude. You found her and you accepted her, even though there were signs that it was bad. You have to look at your own history, and at what made this happen lots of time they say due to a parents marriage and staying when they should have left. It could come from your history, not in a knee-jerk way, but in a very subtle way. Look for the connection and parallel and identification. Ask yourself, “What in this relationship looks like my parents’ marriage at its worse?" Even if they stayed together and it wasn’t so bad, how I am reliving their problems?"

Her attitude toward you no matter how much kindness, friendship, trying, gifts is still selfish. There are many women are there full of love, integrity, and you do have choices. If you love her great, but love is not what you are getting back right now. Before maybe, not now. Lack of respect and integrity are the basis of a person, BPD or not. Look within and look outside and see for yourself and do what is best.

I am not here to judge her, assume or tell you what to do . At the same time psychology doesn't always have to be politically correct to build up someone who doesn't deserve it.

Best regards and blessing to you either way. May love cross your path, and heart with someone who deserves it from you as well.

Angel

[Meili]

There is no disputing any of that LR. I greatly appreciate your thoughtful post, and I've given it some thought.

What I do know is that I must love me; that's where the love comes from not another person.

My FOO plays a the lead role in my actions and choices. This is why I'm in therapy.

I'm not her puppet the way that I used to be. This change has been gradual and is getting stronger and better.

She does not get to decide who my friends are or where I go anymore. The way that the rest of this has played out today has followed that path. If she goes away, she goes away. As my earlier posts indicate, I know the risks and have accepted the reality that my romantic relationship with her is over. If there is a new romantic relationship someday is unknown, but for now, it's over.

But, since this is the "saving" board, and it is about trying to save a relationship, I have tried to keep the tenor in tune with that. Yes, I'd like to salvage what I can with her because we do run in the same social circle for the most part. Keeping the stress, strife, and misery at a minimum is the goal.

I'm also very much aware of the addictiveness of these relationships. My T and I had a long talk about that today. I know that it doesn't come across on the boards because I generally don't write about the day to day stuff in my r/s, but I'm making great strides in breaking the addictive bonds.

[Meili]

I haven't been around here much lately because there has been a lot going on in my life. I'm having to move house. I'm looking at starting a business. I still have to work during the week, and weekends have been filled with testing business ideas and locations.

The point of my writing that was to explain the lack of update about my situation.

My x and I are still talking. We go from her thinking I'm nice and sweet and making her feel good and happy, to her being stressed and upset simply because of a word in a sentence.

Our interactions seem vastly different from the way that they were in the past. My best guess is that I have opened her deepest wounds and she isn't sure what to do or how to respond to me as a result.

She still acts and shows that she wants there to be something between us, but is too filled with fear and distrust to allow it to happen.

As I suspected though, the stronger and more independent I become, the more attractive she finds me; at least it feels that way.

Yesterday I was having an insecure moment and asked her if she was only being nice to me these days because she tries to be a nice person. She told me that wasn't the only reason, and that when things are going well between us that she has good feelings.

Today, she told me that she cannot imagine having a partner for life anymore because of my betrayal.

A few minutes after that, she told me that she didn't sleep last night, was exhausted and it was affecting her responses.

I'm really not sure what to make of any of this anymore. My path is still clear to me though, I need to keep working on me and allowing things to come as they will where she's concerned.

[ArleighBurke]

Today, she told me that she cannot imagine having a partner for life anymore because of my betrayal

I am sure that, as a BPD, she has a FEELING that she can't trust anyone, and after searching for a reason she stumbled accross this one. For a BPD - any reason is a good reason. This may be 20% the reason, but I suspect the REAL reason is she can't trust people because she has BPD!

Keep up your progress. It sounds like you are really taking control of your life!

[Meili]

Thanks AB!

I completely agree with you and she even told me that she feels that she can't trust anyone anymore.

In fact, last night she told me that she's testing me. Well, to be more specific, she told me that she's "observing my actions" for now and wants to see my devotion to her.

This is extremely frustrating because I cannot see how she doesn't see the devotion at this point. But, that's applying "non logic" to the situation.

My fear is that the more that I move on with my life without her, the less devoted she'll see me. I can no longer count on our future business plans together, so I have to start figuring out what to do when my boss retires in a few years. I have some great opportunities, but if I take any of them it would mean relocating. I will do what I need to do to take care of myself and what is best for me first of course. It just puts me in the no-win situations that we are all too familiar with.

[patientandclear]

Going back to the original source of your break: she decided she can't trust you because you acted with principle toward another person in your life (your ex who is now a friend, whom she wanted you to cut out). Right? From what you've written about that previously, you did what is morally and emotionally right for you and would do it again (good for you for your position and clarity).

So you WILL do things that, because her trust meter is miscalibrated, fail her test. Like starting a business without her. Moving. Maintaining the other friendship.

So--why the suspense? You WILL fail the test (anyone would who is not completely colonized by the r/ship). Do you challenge her notion of testing? It buys in to a very unhelpful concept that her mistrust arises from anything you're doing, or that a million positive experiences will prevent the 1,000,001st experience that makes her doubt from causing a rift.

[Meili]

For clarification purposes... .I terminated the r/s and the friendship with the other ex has been terminated as well because of the rift that it caused. In fact, all ties to that ex have been severed. I even have very limited contact with mutual friends these days. Part of that was because of the actions of each of the exes. All of it was because I needed to protect myself.

I agree, I'll always fail her tests.

I don't think that I play into her tests. My response to her "observing" was that the tactic will never work. She keeps me fairly distant, so all that she sees is filtered and only part of a picture. There's no way for her to see who I have become and the continued growth. There's no way for her to trust me, based on what she's actually said to me, because she doesn't know what I'm doing at any given time because of the distance between us.

So, she wants to be sure that I won't seek comfort in another woman (even as a friend), but won't provide any comfort herself. She can't see any devotion because she doesn't know where I'm at, what I'm doing, or who I'm with or talking to because we are rarely in physical proximity to one another these days.

She also doesn't seem to understand that my level of commitment and devotion to her is directly proportionate to her level of commitment and devotion to me. When she tells me that we can't even be friends, there is no reason for me to be devoted to her any longer; yet she gets upset that I am not. When she is close to and spends time with me, my focus is solely on her. When she is running around with other men, I'm free to run around with other woman. All of this eludes her however. I guess that she expects me to sit at home, alone, to prove to her that I love her.

[Meili]

Don't you just love it when you try to do the "right thing" and it makes things worse?

OK, before I explain that statement, I need to tell you what's been going on.

My x and I have still been talking. It has been a lot of the same ol' same ol'. I'd not say the right thing and hear how her male friends treat her better than I do and that they care more, etc. Any time that anything would happen that she didn't like, she'd bring up the ow and the fact that I betrayed my x and ruined our relationship by talking to her.

Last Friday, my x told me that she was done worrying about the ow and the damage has already been done so it didn't matter what I did in regards to her.

On Sunday, I went on a motorcycle ride with 200+ other bikes and 300+ other people. A friend of mine borrowed the motorcycle that the ow had purchased as a gift for me (and that I gave back to her). The ow went on the run too.

The x asked if the ow went, I confirmed. Life has been very painful for me since. She that she was going to let me move in with her, but I destroyed that chance by going on the ride.

I'm about to not have a place to live due to several weird events that started with my landlord getting divorced and created a cascade effect. I negotiated with my landlord and I can stay in my house if I give him two months' rent. Excellent! Except that I don't have the money because the landlord was supposed to refund a month's rent and I used the other month's rent to get my bills caught up.

This morning, the ow contacts me to tell me how I used her, and how she was only nice to me while I was with my x and after in an attempt to have a romantic r/s with me.

So, I tell my x about the housing problem this morning. As part of it, I state that I cannot and will not ask the ow for money before my x can even suggest it. Of course, she wants to know why I can't. I explain the phone call from this morning. I really meant it be a positive, but it wasn't.

[patientandclear]

I thought you weren't considering living with her as friends? Now you seem to be wanting her to let you?

Re the OW: her stance toward you sounds the same as yours toward your BPDex--nice but not on a "just friends" basis. Does that put a different light on what you heard from her (the OW) this morning?

[Meili]

I thought you weren't considering living with her as friends? Now you seem to be wanting her to let you?

It didn't come across from her as "just friends." She told me that she was starting to trust me again. What I'll never know is the reality behind any of that. Was she actually starting to trust me again? Was she really considering my moving back in? Was it just a business thing for her or more? These are questions that I just have to accept that I'll never know the answers to.

Re the OW: her stance toward you sounds the same as yours toward your BPDex--nice but not on a "just friends" basis. Does that put a different light on what you heard from her (the OW) this morning?

I'm not clear what you are asking here.

[Meili]

I had a very interesting conversation yesterday with a long-term friend of mine who has been diagnosed BPD.

She was telling me about her current relationship and the problems that they are having. It was a very interesting and enlightening discussing in that much of what she said to me was almost verbatim what my x has been telling me over the last few days. All of it is also things that have been discussed on these boards, but for whatever reason hearing it from someone actually experiencing it in real time made it all very real for me.

As has been discussed around here many times, they need consistency in order to feel safe. When they don't see things as consistent, it triggers internal alarms that something is wrong. This leads to the dysregulation that we all know so well.

What comes across to us as anger is really just fear.

Those discussions that feel eternal to us are really just their attempts to make sure that we actually understand what they are feeling so that we don't do whatever it is that we did to trigger the fear in the future. When they feel safe in the knowledge that we understand and won't create the trigger in the future, then they feel that a resolution has been reached.

It isn't necessarily about the actual event that was the genesis of the downward spiral, it is about emotions that are triggered. The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow. When we understand the emotions, then the above-mentioned resolution is possible.

All of the things correspond with learning to listen with empathy, not invalidate, and making them feel safe. When we learn to do the, we learn to stop the bleeding and then we can move forward.

[ArleighBurke]

As has been discussed around here many times, they need consistency in order to feel safe.

And yet when things are stable, they become more and more edgy "waiting" for something bad to happen... .

The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow.

Very true. This is also a classic male trait (we are problem solvers).

All of the things correspond with learning to listen with empathy, not invalidate, and making them feel safe. When we learn to do the, we learn to stop the bleeding and then we can move forward.

Is that straight off this website? Very true.

[Meili]

The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow.

Very true. This is also a classic male trait (we are problem solvers).

Something else that I learned from talking to my friend has to do with not taking things the pwBPD says personally.

As we know, feelings = fact. We'll never be able to change what they consider fact. My friend was explaining that she can say that the grass is purple and believe that the grass is purple, but when faced with undeniable evidence that the grass is green, she'll apologize and admit her mistake but still believe that the grass is purple. Once it's a fact to her, it's a fact forever more no matter what.

Because of that, debating the color of the grass is pointless. Her SO just has to accept that she sees that the grass is purple. He cannot contradict her because that would be telling her that what she believes is wrong and therefore she's wrong/bad. He can only work with the fact that she sees the grass as purple. He doesn't have to internalize it and believe it himself though. It doesn't have to change a thing about him.

So, to put it in emotional terms, my x can tell me I am a horrible person. I have to agree with her feeling that way, but I don't have to believe it to be true. I do not have to validate the fact that I'm horrible, but I have to validate that she sees me that way. In short, I don't have to actually believe that I'm horrible, but I have to believe that it is a fact to her.

FTR, my x has never actually told me that I'm a horrible person.

[icky]

. As we know, feelings = fact. We'll never be able to change what they consider fact. My friend was explaining that she can say that the grass is purple and believe that the grass is purple, but when faced with undeniable evidence that the grass is green, she'll apologize and admit her mistake but still believe that the grass is purple. Once it's a fact to her, it's a fact forever more no matter what. Because of that, debating the color of the grass is pointless. Her SO just has to accept that she sees that the grass is purple. He cannot contradict her because that would be telling her that what she believes is wrong and therefore she's wrong/bad. He can only work with the fact that she sees the grass as purple. He doesn't have to internalize it and believe it himself though. It doesn't have to change a thing about him.

. Hi Meili, i've been reading your posts with interest. i think you're doing great work and you analyse and describe the dynamics very well. thank you for wording the grass-is-purple stuff so well. this is one of the things that has upset me MASSIVELY in the past 6 months with my partner. after the idealization phase, all sorts of BPD behaviour started, including the "my feelings = FACTS" thing, which really freaked me out. i was having the-grass-is-purple stuff yelled at me in his tantrums with the ultimatum that i either "hear" and "validate" that the grass IS purple, or i'm the worst person on the face of the planet and the worst partner imaginable (ie. being expected to validate the FACT - validating the feeling was "not enough". not realising at the time that it was BPD stuff, those situations shook me to the core. i wondered if he was just plain insane. i'm only now starting to understand the BPD dynamic of feelings = FACTS. thank you for wording it so clearly and so well. keep up the good work and may there be lots more positive progress - however that ends up manifesting in your life (expected or unexpected progress).

[Meili]

Thank you hmmmmm!

A lot of this stuff is really hard to grasp when you first stumble upon it. Even knowing the traits and how they manifest themselves, we all still get tripped up now and then.

We all get shaken to our cores also. I did today in fact. There are ways that lessen the impact and make communication easier, but sometimes the tools fail. Sometimes there is no "right" way to handle things. Sometimes we find ourselves trapped. That's where boundaries come into play.

I've spent the past few days being told that I'm a liar, manipulator, and that my words can't be trusted. My x told me that I was talking about something that I was not talking about.

It's kinda funny because this morning, she told me during a telephone conversation that she asks that I put so much in writing these days so that she can go back and verify what I said because I'm all of the things that she described.

This afternoon, she was telling me that I said something that I never said. Because so much is in writing, I was able to easily produce the email that contradicted what she was saying that I said. I did my best to Support, Empathize, and tell the Truth (S.E.T.) when I showed her the email. I was still lying. I said something different.

I apologized for the confusion and asked her to show me what she was talking about. It was at that point that she told me that I said it while on the phone with her last night. Now, I'm not sure who she was on the phone with, but it wasn't me, because that's when I had sent the email that I showed her. She acknowledged that she was wrong about the phone and that it must have been in a different email, but she couldn't be bothered to find it.

At this point, I thought it best to not push the issue and just asked that we agree that there was some confusion and go from what I meant to say. She agreed. She wasn't happy, but she agreed.

While we are communicating far more often, the tone of the communication seems to be getting worse. She spends most of her time raging about things that happened a year ago and the devastating effect that they had on her. I do my best to comfort her and try to help her feel safe. It's really hard when she decides that the grass is purple though.

[icky]

yeah, crikey. i must say that before i realised it was BPD stuff, it really freaked me out tho. i agree it's still really challenging, even knowing it's BPD stuff, but at least it's not a 100% confusing, insane mess that you can't make any sense of no matter how you try, with massively hurtful stuff going on the whole time. as you know, i'm just starting on the "ohhh it's BPD" journey. so for me the jury is still out on how viable/ how worthwhile attempting to have a meaninful, loving, caring relationship with someone with mild/medium/massive BPD is. i'm somewhere between "it's a mirage, it can't work, stop staring at a mirage" and "well, if we both make a really big constructive effort and i set lots of healthy boundaries mayyyyyybe it could work". i realise the answer to "is it viable/ worthwhile" is different for everyone. time will tell what my stance ends up being. i'm sorry you've had such a challenging day. when you mentioned you had lots of stuff in writing, and hence misunderstandings could be clarified more easily i thought "wow, great!". but had to giggle at the irony that, nope, even having it all in writing doesn't make a difference... sigh. i don't know how many endless loops of that kind of stuff i've been through these past months. it felt like my brain was turning into mush because of it. but as you said, looking at it on a logic/ factual level is not "helpful". these BPD discussions are about the emotional level and "facts" and "logic" don't really play a role here. it's kind of like arguing with a 3 year old about santa claus, i guess. you can do it - but is it a useful thing (for you or the 3 year old) to be doing?

[Kelli Cornett]

@Meili... .the problems with allowing feelings to equal facts and the consistency thing, is certainly known to anyone who's been in a LTR with a pwBPD.

If feelings always equal facts, then if the pwBPD has inappropriate r/s (flirtations, emotional affairs, physical affairs) but doesn't feel like that's what they're actually doing (or chooses not to remember that they happened, as it might have occurred during dysregulation), then that just becomes part of your life with your BPD partner. That's super unhealthy for the non.

Also, if things are consistent, pwBPD tend to get bored with the lack of drama and chaos, and will create something or simply go outside of the r/s to find some excitement and a way to exercise their lack of impulse control. A major part of their disorder is a lack of object consistency, so things/people can never really be consistent in their lives. And even if you make it your life's mission to keep it consistent on your end, they will find a way to sabotage the consistency. The biggest devaluation/discard that I ever got from my BPDw, was after a month of amazing happiness, consistency, and validation on my part. As if it was just too good and too consistent for her BPD mindset to handle. She had to sabotage it, or else she would have been left to consider the fact that her internal unhappiness was really her own and not caused by our r/s.

[Meili]

Unfortunately, you can never expect a pwBPD to make a constructive effort to save the relationship.

Yes, it's a lot like arguing with a 3 year old. Like a 3 year old, the pwBPD probably won't be able to acknowledge their own role in the problems, and won't be acknowledge the hurt that they have done or are doing. The non is usually blamed. That's part of the not taking it personal.

It gets really tough when the non needs soothing, comforting, and validation. That cannot be expected from a pwBPD. Mine told me today that she can't give it to me. She "predicted" that I am going to call the ow and even told me to do so because she "knows" that's what I'm going to do, and that even if I don't do it she's going to assume that I did. No-win situations are another hallmark of what the non deals with.

I think that all of us who are trying to save a relationship with a pwBPD ask whether or not it's worth it. Like you said, that's an individual choice that we all must make.

And, yes, I being able to go back and look at what was actually "said" because it was in writing causing a problem was kinda ironic.

It's really tough ALWAYS being wrong... .

[Meili]

@northface

Be careful painting all pwBPD with the same brush. Everyone is different and everyone who has BPD has their own, unique set of struggles. It's a spectrum disorder, so not everyone falls along the same place on the spectrum. Also, there are different levels of BPD, so what one person may not be able to control, another might.

[Kelli Cornett]

@northface

Be careful painting all pwBPD with the same brush. Everyone is different and everyone who has BPD has their own, unique set of struggles. It's a spectrum disorder, so not everyone falls along the same place on the spectrum. Also, there are different levels of BPD, so what one person may not be able to control, another might.

I totally get that, but just in my limited time on this board I can't tell you how many people I've talked with and threads I've read that talk about the same issues.

Certainly not all pwBPD have the same exact issues, but it seems like there are so many behaviors that they have in common.

And don't forget, the length of r/s has a lot to do with how many of the behaviors come up with a BPD partner. Just because you haven't seen some behaviors doesn't mean it's not part of their experience with the disorder, it just means you haven't been in the r/s long enough. Prior to this past year I could have never dreamed that my BPDw could dysregulate as dramatically and drastically as she did, but as a T who specializes in BPD told me awhile back, unless the pwBPD is receiving treatment their dysregulations will keep getting worse within a r/s and every recycle of the r/s will become more damaging and painful to the non.

[Kelli Cornett]

In re-reading the earlier posts in this thread, it appears that you have been going through the same things I posted about despite your efforts.
Inappropriate flirtations in front of you (been there, and it sux), possible emotional/physical r/s with others, and having her finding ways to sabotage things when they look like they're improving due to your efforts.

This appears to more demonstrate the similarity of experiences when in a r/s with a pwBPD, rather than the differences. I think sometimes as non's we overemphasize the perceived differences so we can justify our attempts to keep the r/s going or go back for a recycle, and don't want to believe the countless cases of these r/s just not being salvageable in any kind of way that's healthy for the non.

Trust me when I say I completely understand how hard it is to break out of the cycle.
Still there myself.

[Meili]

Oh, there's no argument that many of the stories are the same, or at least very similar. But, not every pwBPD will cheat, become violent, etc. Yes, some do, but not all. In fact, it only takes five of the nine criteria to diagnose someone as a pwBPD. If the other four are not present, then it is just as unlikely that the pwBPD will do those things as it is any other person as far as I know. I've never seen any study that supports the idea that a pwBPD is more likely to develop the traits that are not present than any other person.

It should be noted that I'm in no way looking at any of this through rose-colored glasses. I've radically accepted my situation and all that comes with it.

[Lilyroze]

If feelings always equal facts, then if the pwBPD has inappropriate r/s (flirtations, emotional affairs, physical affairs) but doesn't feel like that's what they're actually doing (or chooses not to remember that they happened, as it might have occurred during dysregulation), then that just becomes part of your life with your BPD partner. That's super unhealthy for the non.

Also, if things are consistent, pwBPD tend to get bored with the lack of drama and chaos, and will create something or simply go outside of the r/s to find some excitement and a way to exercise their lack of impulse control. A major part of their disorder is a lack of object consistency, so things/people can never really be consistent in their lives. And even if you make it your life's mission to keep it consistent on your end, they will find a way to sabotage the consistency.

This is one of the wisest things I have read in a long time on here. We train people how to treat us, and BPD train people to take abuse. Simple. I have put up with it, so I am not in any way judging anyone here. But we all determine our worth, self worth, and need to as nons retrain our minds, hearts and souls to not take abuse, affairs, lack of respect, or lower our boundaries or needs for the mentally ill BPD. There is no political correct way to say it  when they choose the route of abuse.

Illness and BPD I understand. Quite frankly though some is lack of respect for themselves, and the non, and nothing more. Acting 3, being selfish comes along with the territory! Learning to validate, communicate with them better, avoid triggers is very important and will go a long way. All aside it is different then emotional abuse. Learning healthy ways to handle things with them is great, at same time learning just because they have BPD, desyregulate and some are selfish and lack of integrity or morals at times doesn't mean you as the non have to accept it with excuses. To make excuses constantly for their behavior is not healthy for yourself, well being or soul. It just is not. If you have kids you are setting them up as well to make excuses for the BPD in unhealthy ways. 

Being painted black is being called a liar, manipulator, and when they go to other people for "friendships", affairs, or "friendships disguised as affairs emotional or otherwise", threatening to have an affair with someone you know same thing. It is abuse, blackmail and painted black. No matter how much the non wants to work it out, bring it back to what it was, opium induced hope, trying, giving it, therapy. If a BPD wants to have an affair, or deregulates, a scene or chaos, they will and do, as some can't help and some just use as an excuse. The excuses with some can range from you made them mad, you deserved, they want fun, they "broke" up and you are no longer a couple so they can do that. Until they lay the guilt and want a caretaker again, someone to buy them things or take care of then you are back in for a ride.

 You as the non, have to get healthy, have boundaries, and standards of what is best for you (we are all different what is acceptable to one, maybe different then others, but DO not let a non who is unhealthy tell you it is OK, because the BPD is ill). Set your own boundaries, get therapy and insist on the ill one getting therapy, meds or whatever is needed if they want to stay and work with you. If they don't want that doesn't mean when it hits the bar, affair, crazy route that you have to take it in the name of love, or put a spin on it, or make it better then it is. Abuse is abuse even if the person has BPD. It is not a pass to continue affairs, abuse and the whole gamut.

It is a chance to heal with them, validate, understand them, work and love them. But, not a pass to continue on the path of abuse and self destruction.

I notice some tend to minimize and say I was not painted black. OK, to your face but well... .and quite frankly if you are called liar continually, and worse involving other people then you are in a way. The saying don't pee on me and tell me it is raining comes to mind with some BPD people and the situations involved.

Just because some have affairs or worse and think of you as a possession does not mean love. No matter what board you are on learn self worth, take to heart your values, believe in yourself and find self love. Learn the difference between possesive ill people and people with love there is a difference. No not all BPD are like this, but well take off the rose colored glasses ( believe me I had them and listen when they tell you what they are saying and face it)

 Either they want to work with you or not, once more and more affairs, fights, other people, alcohol and other means get involved it is heading to an ugly end, or living a life of abuse. Face it, heal it, and learn from it. Again as a well known person in the field said, if the person is on and off, there is usually never a chance to go back to what you wanted. It was an illusion, a mask, or what they were pretending or were at that moment in time. I think the quote I put in another post said paraphrasing it is opium induced hope to keep trying and thinking if I put up with this, understand more, listen harder, buy this, give that, appreciate more, see the good it will get better. Good luck... .Yes there are BPD that try, are wonderful and great if yours is wonderful. If they are in a spiral, not trying,raging, drinking, can't control some of their behaviors, ( budgets, spending, drinking, or worse involving sex, drugs etc... .then no they are not getting better and will need intervention). Whether you stay or go facing the situation with reality will help with the path you need to go with or without them. The journey is about you as well and not just accepting abuse, worrying or caretaking someone. You are important as well.

Remember as caretakers, as I was, it is not your responsibility to make it all better, be the only one trying, try to fix it, or take on all the guilt or worse abuse. If you are a codependent ( I was not) but do understand that role, no it is not all on you. They need to try and get help, or you need to look within see your value, your needs, your healthy, your boundaries and decide if and when you want better for yourself. Begin today, life is beautiful you don't need to take abuse and worse to feel lo