How to begin the end. Talking about separation and divorce.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have come a long way in the past year and a half.  In summary, I discovered the three letters BPD and have really studied it out.  I have read-up on many things psychology, child development, divorce, behavior, abuse.  I got into some therapy visits, and self-helped my way to a much better place.  I have my moments of being a frail human, but for the most part, I have strong Kung Fu, as I describe it to myself.  I do well when it comes to enforcing boundaries, maintaining a healthy sense of self, validating without being drawn into the abyss, and being a much improved dad. 

All this good news has made my life better.  Ironically, if I was the victim of abuse, the work I did to myself helped me get out of the worst of it.  If seems like blaming the victim, but, it is what it is. 

I should be, and am, happy about what has happened.   However, there is one element that is still there and can't be ignored.  Maybe I started getting help too late to save my marriage, or maybe I still am enough of the problem that there is no saving it.  I can't say I'm in the process of transitioning anymore.  I can't say I'm conflicted about deciding whether to divorce or not.  I just can't go back. I have no feelings of love, aside from the fleeting guilt and duty to "love" one's wife.  Some say to have a "gray rock" attitude in the face of BPD crazy.  My gray rock turned to cold stone.  I have concern and love for her as another human, and a fellow spirit, but, I can't abide the idea of being married.  That said, I have reached a point of acceptance and calm that I think enables me to stay in my stuck, loveless, marriage for a while.  I maybe can make it a little longer, or a lot longer if it needs to be so for the kids.   I think I can, maybe, adapt and hang on, or I can divorce and deal with it.

As far as I can tell*, my wife is more or less in the same mode of carrying on.  I know she says and feels she loves me, but, I get the feeling that it's a need and dependency, rather than a honest balanced and equal love.  I believe it when she says, on the rare times, that she loves me, although I choke on the words if I try to say the same to her. 

      * and I know that I am not a mind-reader and want to avoid transferrance and projection onto her for my feelings.

I'm stuck.  I don't want to stay stuck.  I have a lot to lose in divorce, mostly by the damage to the kids if she became enraged and unleashed her persuasive blame, manipulation, brain washing, and wrath on the kids.  I have survived being poor before, so the property and financial results of divorce will be hard, but not terminal. It's her poison that she will use on me and the kids, and our future, that I fear most.

I am looking for a way to breach the stalemate.  For years, I hid all evidence of my unhappiness, and developing self.  I lied to cover my therapy visits.  I have seen divorce lawyers, abuse shelters, opened separate bank accounts, snuck sentimental items to storage, read divorce books, followed and joined online divorce advice forums.  I have done a lot of hidden, but reversable, things to prepare.  But, I am without an idea of how to talk about separation and divorce with my wife.  I needed the secrecy at the time.  I needed to think and heal while still acting undercover as the complacent husband. But, as time goes on it's just more and more dishonest to her and to myself to carry on.  I have bought peace, but at what cost, I wonder.

I am also afraid of her anger, and oddly, I am hesitant to hurt her feelings and crush her illusion of at least being in a marriage, though cold and rotten.  As bad as our marriage is, I think it's the best she can hope for.   

What do I do?
Keep quiet and soldier on, hoping to keep getting better and make things better for everyone?
Bring it up openly?
Woo her and get her in a great mood, then talk about separation?
Get her into a joint counseling session and bring it up?
... .stay logged in on this post on the home computer?
Ask a counselor to speak with her about what she wants, or divorce?

I can't say it's time for open war in which I unilaterally decide and file for divorce. That would unleash a demon. 

I can't say that anything we do would save the marriage, either.  So I don't know what talking to er about it would change.  I don't feel like I have the stamina to do what it might take to save the marriage, or even continue the status quo.  I want there to be some relief through talking about it.  I would love it if there was a mutual acceptance and healthy "adult" mature progression towards divorce.   But, if she was adult and rational, and healthy, we wouldn't have to be talking about divorce in the first place. 

I also can't think of a way that has a happy ending. 

Thanks for reading, I needed to write it in order to get this out of my head.

[earlgrey]

Hi Samwisegamgee,

I read all your post and it all sounds very familiar. You want to break the stale mate, I did too.

I had TWO big hurdles :

1) to know what i really wanted
2) to have the focus and belief to achieve it (this was very hard)

FWIW this is what I did.

Dec 2013 I realised divorce was the answer. My W. had completely blocked out any kind of discussion or idea that  things were not good over a number of years

So during 2014 I started an email campaign stating very clearly my unhappiness and desire for changes. These emails were never read!

My final email said basically having problems is normal, having problems and not addressing them is destructive. Again no response.

I prepared myself slowly and then one day said I want a divorce - I felt I had done everything I could to avoid this scenario, and so felt OK with my approach.

Now this declaration opened up a whole new scenario that I had not planned on. (I was expecting narcissitic rage and her to walk - instead I got her attention, we can work things out, love bombing, I can change etc etc)
This 'we can work things out' phase lasted a bit then we went back to normal.

I'm pretty much the avoid conflict/pleaser type, so the we can work things out phase pressed all my yes we can buttons, happy buttons. I also realised i did not have the focus (my focus on me) to achieve what I had set out for - divorce.


12 months later (now) I have worked on me and what I really want, have repeated the divorce demand and things are now going in that direction.

I wish you well, and above all the ability to focus on your own desires and wishes and dreams, because while you are spending so much energy on a moribund r/s that focus tends to go very fuzzy.

All best EG

[michel71]

This is a great post.
I feel the poster's pain as I am in the same place I think.
Earl Grey gave a great response.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I see the divorce "bomb" not as an event but a process. And from reading the various posts on this site it can take several times before us nons can physically detach. We may separate and then come back. And before that happens we can say we are done and then not be done. Cycle, recycle. Rinse and Repeat.
Oh it is CRAZy making indeed.
I hope more people will post responses here.

[ForeverDad]

There is such a thing as overthinking it.  You can work yourself into a tizzy of "what ifs".  Frankly, there is no perfect time to end a dysfunctional marriage.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared as best you can be.  It also doesn't mean giving "overly fair" notice and thereby exposing yourself to allegations when your spouse realizes you're serious and then she does an end run around you and makes allegations before you can file and so she postures as a victim.

In her rants and rages has she contemplated or threatened to make allegations of DV or child abuse to make you look bad (or look worse than her)?  If so then beware, if it has been contemplated or threatened then it will happen, given opportunity and enough time.

Do you have documentation of her recent misbehaviors?  Courts generally look only at the past 6 months or so.  Citing incidents years in the past may help demonstrate a pattern of behaviors but may be considered 'stale' and not very 'actionable'.

Remember, one of the reasons to end an unhealthy marriage is to do what's best for the children.  Yes, no one desires a divorce but when it is abusive or dysfunctional it may be the only viable option left.  As counter-intuitive as it seems, sometimes separation is necessary, the children will be able to discern the difference between your stable home and the inconsistent, ever changing demands and ultimatums of your spouse's home.

I often quote from this book which I bought just to track down this quote:

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, overall craziness, etc.  Some 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

Of course, only you - or your spouse - can decide whether to end a marriage.  If it is you, then you may be able to structure the changes in healthy ways for you and the children and avoid the worst of the blaming and allegations so common in our cases.  We can share our experiences, suggest what works better, warn you of common pitfalls, etc.  You still need your lawyer for legal advice and your counselor and trusted friends/family for support, but we're always here in peer support for a little bit of everything else.  We've been there, done that, survived and come out the other side in one piece.  One excellent handbook is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy and Randi Kreger — it is also listed on our Book Reviews board.
www.HighConflictInstitute.com

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you for the support. It is constantly a good feeling to post here and have people who understand from walking the same path.

As I think about this, I can't help but believe that I can have a rational discussion about divorce.  I think at this point I have a pretty business decision point of view.  I could go to a so-called marriage or divorce meeting and deal with it rationally.  I could leave that meeting with an idea of what to try, and what to do next, either way.  With my wife, I think that once someone says divorce, you can never un-say it.  It will be the ultimate end game after that.  Even if we somehow stay together, nothing will be as it was before the D-word came out.  

Michle71 - I have been on a track of getting more and more distant, more separated by small measures as I go.  It is a process in my case, but I've reached the edge of what I can to without going public so to speak.

Earlgray - agreed.  Sometimes, I think I know what to do, but, like combat, no plan survives contact with the enemy!

I'm pretty sure that if we head to divorce I would have to be the adult, leading a child with tantrums and manipulations everywhere.  I will have to be calm and focused.  

I muse, I used to forbid the idea of divorce, for almost 18 years.  That's when I thought divorce was just two adults splitting stuff, and agreeing to child custody.  Now I see that it's going to be a lot more damage than that.  If it gets to that.  I'd like to have a business meeting and see if there are workable alternatives to divorce, and if not, an orderly procedure to split.  I'm held stuck by fear.

The longer it goes like this, the less sensitive I become.  I think "I quit" is right on the tip of my tongue sometimes.  Maybe that's how it will go.  I'll finally break the secrecy and silence, and just go with a unilateral divorce.  

[SamwizeGamgee]

ForeverDad - our posts overlapped.  I accept what you said too.  I am prone to analysis paralysis - painfully so!  I think it's how I'm wired.  I tie myself up in knots trying to always collect more information, and test ideas.  Not a good trait around BPD.  Ironically, I didn't do that when getting married - talk about system failure

I am also prone to suffer in silence for FAR too long in my life.  Also, how I'm kind of wired, I put up with it and accomplish the mission.  Not a good trait around BPD.

I watched the first two episodes of a program "starting over series"  - I don't recall the presenter at the moment, but, he hit it right on the head for me.  I have accepted that I made a mistake.  Several mistakes in the past.  I'm not just a victim.  One of my mistakes was just plain staying married too long.  But, I was overly loyal and devoted to marriage itself. 

Here's a problem.  Back a year ago, she was crazy and dangerous, she would take off into town and scare all the kids by being gone with no idea when she'd come back.  She go mental and rage at me with those weird deep black eyes from some other plane.  She'd pout and withhold, she'd go-off on the kids.  All kinds of bad behavior.  Now, I've cleaned up my act and have my Kung Fu in order - so much so that I she is just about a picture perfect mom.  She looks perfectly human on the outside.  No one sees Mrs. Hyde.  All thanks to me and my compensation for her sickness.  So, yeah, as long as I'm superhuman, she looks good. No good evidence of psychotic behavior to demonstrate to the court. 

It's so tough deciding what's best for the kids.

[whirlpoollife]

SG , there is no easy or right way to tell a spouse you want divorce.  
The hardest thing I ever did was divorce, the best thing I ever did was divorce.
I was married 27 yrs to a cluster personality h. Narcisit sociopath blamer, who wore me down mentally and physically.  I dreamed of divorce many times ,stayed for the kids, then it came to the point of do it or die. I have two children , young teens at the time I had filed. I read in one book that it was actually harder on adult kids to hear that their parents are divorcing.   I read and planned.   I told ex that I did not want to stay married to him anymore . I felt guilty using th word , divorce. I told him that he would see the kids still that I am not taking th kids away from him. (But I wasn't prepared for later when he tried for full custody as he said I was mental. )
I went to the first L, to sign the divorce papers, I scared shaking , but then I felt the first sense of relief. That went away quick when I told the kids.
After, I wasn't prepared for S to text xh immediately.  Who , xh, then said this was all a surprise to him.   He immediately PA the kids from me. There should of been an immediate date for a hearing or temp orders, but the L I had had the custody hearing , and who lives in the house hearing five months from then.  Those months were hell. I had taken some of the financial papers to a storage unit but I wasn't prepared for xh to go though and take the rest.  He was very powerful with words in the family court and I had to fight the whole way to have any custody, even though I am the mother.
Don't let what I say scare you more to make the move.  You can be prepared but surprises show up.  
I look back at how beaten down I was and don't know how I did it . Faith and this board helped me immensely but I, myself , had to lead, I had to do it.  
My one regret was why I didn't divorce sooner. Why did i just wish it but not act on it.

[Panda39]

I was not married to someone with BPD (my SO has an uBPDxw) but was in a 20 year co-dependent marriage to an alcoholic.  I stayed in this marriage for my son for financial reasons... .I believed I wouldn't be able to support him on my own and I had to be able to do that because I knew my ex would be unreliable for child support.  About 15 years in I was finally ground down to depression.  I eventually started climbing up that hole, by taking charge of my health, then by reaching out to others, then doing things that I was passionate about... .I was finding me again.  

Once I did I knew I could no longer stay in my unhappy marriage.  I decided I wanted out in January and like you began to do some things in secret to prepare.  Fixing things around the house (getting it ready to sell), looking for a place to live in our school district so my son wouldn't have to change schools, talking to the credit union about a car loan, moving things with sentimental value to a file cabinet at work, in my state if the divorce is uncontested you can do your own for about $250 so I started figuring out the paperwork... .

I was going to wait until May when my son was done with the school year to tell my husband I wanted a divorce.  I made it to April, I made the decision and couldn't wait any longer.  I told him in April, filed in May was divorced in August and had to live with him until March of the following year because we had to short sale our townhouse (this was during the housing bubble).  

I want to say that divorce is not easy (and with a BPD spouse can be harder than most) but it does not have to be a bad thing.

I divorced and was happier, more my authentic self and emotionally healthy.

My ex lost his wife, to some extent his son (I had primary custody), had his 3rd DUI, lost his retirement (used to pay attorneys), went to work smelling like alcohol and lost his job.  He finally hit rock bottom and finally understood he was an alcoholic.  He has been sober for 5 years now.

My son got to see both of his parents happy and healthier and learned that people can make positive change.

My divorce was good for all of us and I have no regrets and I like some of the others here wish I had acted sooner.

My mantra during all of this was a line from a Pink song... ."Have you ever looked fear in the face and said I just don't care"

My SO had a tougher divorce it took 2 years but for him and his daughters it has been a positive as well.  His ex unfortunately has continued her downward trajectory but can no longer pull the whole family down with her.

His mantra "Boldly Go"

If you are ready to divorce and have prepared as best you can then in my opinion the only thing left to do is do it.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all for the support.  Anywhere else, and observers just don't get what it's like to live with an afflicted spouse.  I guess you have to live it to understand it.

I am wondering to myself if I am finally getting to the other side of my year of indecision and fear.  Panda, I don't think I know that Pink song, but it sounds like good advice.  I have Johnny Cash "I'm So Lonesome, I Could Cry."  Also in my mental play list is the The Who's "Blue Eyes", Chevelle's "Red", which are both anger management songs.  I have a bunch more songs that I tap into, but, those come to mind.  Oh, Motley Crue's "Girl Don't Go Away Mad (Just Go Away)" is always a toe tapper. 

I'm not sure if it's that I'm reaching a decision finally, or that I'm tired of tiptoeing, and hiding my growth, and desire for divorce*.  Or it might be that I internally sense that I'm ready for the tough parts ahead and I have done all the preparation I can.  Or, I might just be building up that "Good Anger" that will motivate me to move forward.  I say good anger in the spirit of the gift of fear - that at some point we can only be a victim so long before we do what we must to protect ourselves.   I could be feeling a little more bold now too because my DGAF** meter is reaching the red line. 

     *not that I actually want a divorce, I really want peace and happiness, but the price tag might be divorce.  Some people just want a divorce plain and simple.
     **Don't Give A F(rak)


Aside: Over and over I read stories of moms who leave abusive husbands, and I know it is never easy and very painful and dangerous, but often times it sounds like a granted concept that they get the kids, or majority custody.  That's one point I can't have in my automatic favor, being a working dad.  If I pursue divorce, it will be a daunting task to get even 50 / 50 custody where I live.  The odds are ever against me, even if I document my super-dadness.  Which is a terrible prospect.  In general I believe that courts favor the abuser in these family matters.  Up against an emotionally persuasive blamer / high conflict personality who is also a mostly stay at home mom, I will lose, a lot.  I may be utterly wrong, but, the appearance is thus.

[michel71]

What if you have to "begin the end" around holiday time? Have any of you done that and how did it go?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Whirlpoollife - I try to look at what I will regret.  Staying? Divorcing?
Yes and Yes = stuck.  
I don't have a crystal ball.  In those cases, my advice to someone else would be to go with your gut.
I'm trying, but, it's easier of course when  the stakes are lower.

[SamwizeGamgee]

What if you have to "begin the end" around holiday time? Have any of you done that and how did it go?

I have not done it yet, obviously, but, from opinions I respect and study on my own, I have accepted the advice of do not hold off due to the holidays.  There will always be a reason or season to not do it.  There will always be a party, holiday, birthday, anniversary, vacation, promotion, or something that will be affected.  When the time is right for you, it is right. 
Fortunately, there will also be holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc., after the divorce too.  I advise to not time it for external things.  Your kids will have to deal with it, as well as you.

[michel71]

Whirlpoollife - I try to look at what I will regret.  Staying? Divorcing?
Yes and Yes = stuck.  
I don't have a crystal ball.  In those cases, my advice to someone else would be to go with your gut.
I'm trying, but, it's easier of course when  the stakes are lower.

Gosh I am so feeling you Samwize! Minus the kids ( and I know that is HUGE HUGE HUGE) I am wrestling with the same thing as you.

[earlgrey]

I was planning to drop the D bomb after summer holidays in september... .I could get through the summer, Kids wouldn't have chaos while everyone was home, or at least that was the plan... .ha!ha!

Then events conspired against me and I dropped it earlier than planned - like right in the middle of the hols!

There is never a good time, but events can easily make you procrastinate.

While my D bomb was never meant as a threat ( ie it was real) it was received as WOW what's going on! A real wake up call.

Div. takes a long time and the first mention is by no means a done deal, the last anyone has to say on the matter.

It is just the start, and who can tell what such a bomb will provoke... .you can't.

[SamwizeGamgee]

EG - yeah, I have been busy and really having a fun time with the kids this summer, so I pushed all the marriage crap to the back of my mind.  But, it seems to be a problem like cancer treatment.  I should not put it off longer, and the only way through it, is to do it.

[Panda39]

"Aside: Over and over I read stories of moms who leave abusive husbands, and I know it is never easy and very painful and dangerous, but often times it sounds like a granted concept that they get the kids, or majority custody.  That's one point I can't have in my automatic favor, being a working dad.  If I pursue divorce, it will be a daunting task to get even 50 / 50 custody where I live.  The odds are ever against me, even if I document my super-dadness.  Which is a terrible prospect.  In general I believe that courts favor the abuser in these family matters.  Up against an emotionally persuasive blamer / high conflict personality who is also a mostly stay at home mom, I will lose, a lot.  I may be utterly wrong, but, the appearance is thus."

I can tell you in my case that my ex was an every other weekend (EOW) dad and he never asked for more custody or additional time with our son.  I would like to believe in my ex's case that he knew deep down that our son would be better off with me and he loved his son enough to do that. I don't really know what he thought but he never asked to see our son outside of those weekends (and I would have been totally open to this), and since my son turned 18 they have minimal contact neither reaching out to the other very often. The court played no part in the custody of my son.

My SO had a rougher time but a good outcome.  During the separation he was the EOW dad who wanted 50/50.  He had to fight parental alienation, kids spying and reporting to mom, mom's neglect of the kids, and he had to pick up the pieces of his daughters lives after mom's 3 evictions.  The court gave him custody during the week and 1 weekend a month along with Education, Medical and Dental decision making.  That was 4 years ago and now his girls live with him full-time and by choice because of their mother's instability.  As a man you might have a tougher time but the courts can get it right when you prove your case... .or like my SO's case your ex makes your case for you with their bad behavior and poor decisions.
 
Everyone's situation is different all you can do is your best and fight for what you want.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

I am always encouraged by stories of the courts doing something that appears to be the right thing.  A concept I learned from reading Splitting was that the courts are an abusers dream-come-true.  An emotional persuader and high conflict personality needs someone to believe their story and use force to get "even."  So, it goes often that the most emotional and persuasive person gets control.  In my case, my wife would have them in the palm of her hand. She plays such an innocent, pious, stay home mom, with manipulations galore.  She could paint me black and take it all - with the courts blessings.

Inside myself I think that I'm either screaming or crying because I don't think I can keep going like this.  And yet, if I do anything, I wake the demon, who is my wife.

[ForeverDad]

The tone of your musings indicate you might be 'catastrophising', seeing just the worst sort of outcome.  Yes, it might be  as bad as you fear, but it could instead, with foreknowledge of her possible tactics and maneuvers and you being informed about the issues and armed with strategies, turn out to be as good as you hope.  More likely it will be somewhere in between.

Imagine what your odds would be if you were uninformed, without strategies and without peer support!

Just do your reasonable best.  After all, you don't have many options and inaction isn't a good strategy either.

[SamwizeGamgee]

That fits. Thanks for calling me on that.

I muse that last year I started my research on divorce with looking at houses for rent in the area.  I had no idea about personality disorders, I had been living in the FOG so long.  I was going to move out and go from there.  What a disaster it could have been.

Thankfully, I detoured when I read about BPD.  I spent many a month studying and growing.  I can't imagine what would have happened if I went blazing ahead thinking I was divorcing a non-BPD.  To borrow from a classic, I took the road less traveled, and that has made all the difference. 

So, yes, I list rather drastic alternatives.  It's hard for me mentally to not prepare for the worst and let that guide my decision.  Maybe it's from a warfighting principle - to not prepare for what your enemy may do, but prepare for what he can do. 

As a personality, she also has avoidant traits, so, she might just fold up entirely, and go into her dark, self-loathing phase as she has done at time before.  I'd be tempted to feel like I was a cruel monster with a helpless victim if that happened.

Stuck

[ForeverDad]

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Your children range from elementary to high school.  With some of them older, they may be witnesses who can recount to counselors, a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) or custody evaluator the reality of life behind closed doors that professionals might otherwise not discern or minimize.  My case was a bit different, while we had been married for 15 years, we had only one child and when we separated he was a preschooler who was deeply impacted by her erratic and demanding behaviors.  Yet, he was clearly daddy's boy and in those early years sought refuge with me.  He was my only witness, besides my recordings, of what life was like at home and as young as he was so much was ignored.

Are your children in counseling?  If not, do they seek help from and confide in the school counselors?  They surely have been impacted.  They may feel a loyalty to her, perhaps trained (invalidated) to not trust their own observations and conclusions, and get swayed by her versions of reality.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you for your reply. 
I would like very much for my kids to get into counseling, not necessarily therapy, but a chance to meet and talk with someone who can hear them out.  Sort of a familiarization with expressing feelings and getting some guidance if needed - when the time comes.  I'm not sure how to make that happen.  I know if I get to the point of open warfare divorce, I'll have a reason and resources to tap, but, for just a familiarization visit there's sort of no impetus. 
____
To the initial idea of this post, another question I am pondering is how to go about the end, if that's where this is going.  I have been intentionally going cold to my wife, gradually creating distance, becoming non-reactive to her attempts at stirring things up, kind but not personal - like a business co-worker, and generally boring.  I have projected an attitude of going along with anything - at least all the small things.  If she wants to be nice, I'm nice, if she wants to initiate some intimacy, I'll go along, but, I'm not disturbed if she doesn't.  My goal was to gradually ease her off of her dependency on me.  And, it makes it easier to reach a point of feeling so detached that a divorce seems like the natural conclusion (at least to my point of view). 

The other approach I have thought about is to make it nice.  I can do more to show love and kindness, I can do more to get her in a good mood.  Thinking if she's feeling good in general, a discussion about separation and divorce might come from a balanced emotional state.   There would be nothing like sweeping her off her feet to get her in a good mood to talk about divorce!  How confusing. 

I know when I act better, she acts better, but I am concluding that nothing can cure or change her, and even when she's happy and cared for, it does not benefit the family enough.  The damage potential is always there and the problems with BPD affect every relationship.

[Panda39]

"To the initial idea of this post, another question I am pondering is how to go about the end, if that's where this is going.  I have been intentionally going cold to my wife, gradually creating distance, becoming non-reactive to her attempts at stirring things up, kind but not personal - like a business co-worker, and generally boring.  I have projected an attitude of going along with anything - at least all the small things.  If she wants to be nice, I'm nice, if she wants to initiate some intimacy, I'll go along, but, I'm not disturbed if she doesn't.  My goal was to gradually ease her off of her dependency on me.  And, it makes it easier to reach a point of feeling so detached that a divorce seems like the natural conclusion (at least to my point of view)." 


I think you are over thinking "how to go about the end"... .you tell her you want a divorce in the kindest way that you can that is the best any of us can do.  This isn't something you can sugar coat, walking on egg shells is not going to make the news any less upsetting and remember no matter how much you plan you cannot control her reaction.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Maybe you're right.  Darn it. I just can't muster the power to hurt someone's feelings.
Plus, doubts crop up like weeds all the time.

Alternatives I thought of recently have been to tell her in a counseling session with some supporters for her available, or just blind side her and file for custody of the kids and have her served.  That's a rude awakening.

[ForeverDad]

I just can't muster the power to hurt someone's feelings.

Ponder this:  Would she reciprocate your concern?  For most of us, our spouses had already discounted us as meriting respect or even consistent friendliness, we were facing emotions storms and not able to reason much with our spouses, we had to admit, No we wouldn't get such consideration.  (My spouse actually made endless child abuse allegations, as happened to many others!)  If your spouse is more "acting-in", then maybe it may not be that way with you.  Maybe.

[Panda39]

I know you don't want to hurt her feelings but what about your feelings they play a part in this equation too?  At some point (and maybe you aren't there yet) you simply realize you're unhappy, nothing is changing and you've had enough and you decide to leave. At some point it becomes about you and what you deserve. I didn't want to hurt my ex's feelings either but once I made up my mind come hell or high water I was not turning back.  I just kept moving forward because I could not see myself with this man for another 20 years I simply couldn't.  I would have had a sad miserable life.

Instead I'm happy, busy, and social.  I have been with a wonderful man for the last 6 years.  My ex has a girlfriend half his age  and is sober and happy.  My son has to happier parents, is doing well as a college student with a part-time job.

IMO at some point you have to start thinking about yourself... .and no that is not selfish... .it's about caring about you!  You are doing a lot of thinking about her, but what about you?

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

That is so true. So often there is advice here, and in the books too, about how to improve or at least manage your relationship with a BPD partner.  I tried, and it made me a lot better, got my marriage out of the "insane" category, but, these days, I just have been caring less and less about making sure she is OK. I'm tired of tiptoeing on all the eggshells.  I think I've become much less of an amazing husband over the past year because I've just reached the point that the relationship does not hurt, because I just don't care.  I find myself describing that I have "sold my stock" in the marriage. 

That said, I still am having a hard time even imagining doing something to make her (or anyone) cry.  Pretty sad, huh?

And, I do know how to handle toddler fits, I hold firm boundaries when I have whining kids - and a moody wife. So, it's not that I don't know how to keep a hard line, I just feel sorry for my wife in some regard. It seems so mean to want to end a marriage.

It is very hard for me to think about me.  I've always been a giver, self-sacrificing, loyal, duty-bound, type of person.   I'd be great in a healthy relationship with an equal person!

ForeverDad - my wife is usually an Acting-in type.  She could completely shut down and turn on herself if faced with divorce, maybe - as you say.  It's funny to observe how my wife does care for me.  It's almost two-faced how she will support me doing something I want, and then find lots of ways to passive aggressively undermine it, take the joy out, or later indistinctly mention how she wished she could do something.  It's as though she wants to appear the benevolent wife.  And at other times, I think she is really concerned. 

[earlgrey]

Samwize I feel for you... .my path was very similar, I have never been able to put someone in a difficult position, wanting divorce seemed to me like I was going to 'destroy' someone else's world... .

Eventually i got to the point where I wanted to build my world and not spend my whole life stuck with chaos. (Every moment of every day was filled with chaos and my 'wish' to be out of here).

It took a lot of time to get there, and eventually I said I wanted a divorce. While I was convinced that was what i wanted, it didn't actually provoke an immediate separation, but started what appeared to be real dialogue. It was not meant as a threat but was treated as a one by W., ie she realised something was up (a first).

12 months later with stop start superficial dialogue I was better prepared to push forward with MY plan (not her plan) and we are now on our way forward towards divorce.

I feel I have done all I could to save our r/s.

[Panda39]

"I've always been a giver, self-sacrificing, loyal, duty-bound, type of person."

All great qualities but sometimes our best qualities can be our worst qualities.  These great qualities seem to have you stuck. Are these great qualities serving you in this situation? I have the same qualities and I stayed in my marriage, in part, way too long waiting for my alcoholic husband with a good heart to figure out he had a problem.  I was co-dependent, unhappy and stuck.  I changed what we had always done... .the status quo... .when I asked for a divorce and we all, me, my son and my ex became unstuck.

I want to remind you that you are not responsible for your wife's feelings she is.  I also want to remind you she is an adult and can take care of herself. 

My SO also struggled with some of this too when leaving his uBPDxw but was reminded by his mom that the ex like a cat always landed on her feet.  This has proven true.  His Queen/Waif ex who according to her couldn't work (because she had every imaginary illness in the world!) has worked, borrowed and written bad checks but continues to function in the world.  She has been evicted 3 times, couch surfed, lived in hotels, and now actually lives with her attorney.  She lives on the edge but these choices have been her choices the way she lives isn't because my SO left her.  She is living the natural consequences of her choices. 

I'd also like to suggest looking towards yourself.  I realized that I had a pattern with all of my romantic partners... .I was giving, caring, nurturing and always put them first.  Again all great qualities, but because I was so focused on them I never stopped to consider how they treated me.  I also looked at why I allowed these lopsided relationships what was I getting out of them?  On the surface I look like a great person, so nice, so caring, so self-sacrificing and yes I was those things but I was also using those qualities to feel better about myself to look like I had it together, that I was a great person, that I was a caring person so I would receive strokes from those around me.  I had very little self esteem and found value in myself and validation from others by taking care of other people.  I finally realized that I had value simply for the person I am and I was worth caring about both by myself and by my next partner.  My authentic self (who had been judged and criticized by a critical mother) was actually a pretty awesome person and I have just as much value as my partner or anyone else. 

Sometimes we have to ask for what we want or go after what we want even when it isn't the perfect solution for everyone around us.

Panda39