A setback?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been trying hard to be nice, loving, validating all week.  But tonight my wife was all stressed and tired from work (but hey, so was I), and she found an excuse to be crappy to me and start a fight.  I didn't go fight back, and now I'm keeping out the way upstairs, but honestly, it's been a tough day at work, and I don't have the energy to deal with this or her now.  

So, I'm wondering, what did I achieve this week? All that effort for basically the same outcome? Was it worth it? Why not just not try so hard if the result will be the same?  

What are the positives or validating a BPDw exactly? Will things change or get better? I felt happy being nice to her, because of course I married her for love, and it was nice to feel like we could get on. But it's false. We can't.  Will more effort make a positive difference? Or am I wasting my time?

[PFCI]

I've been trying hard to be nice, loving, validating all week.  But tonight my wife was all stressed and tired from work (but hey, so was I), and she found an excuse to be crappy to me and start a fight.  I didn't go fight back, and now I'm keeping out the way upstairs, but honestly, it's been a tough day at work, and I don't have the energy to deal with this or her now.  

So, I'm wondering, what did I achieve this week? All that effort for basically the same outcome? Was it worth it? Why not just not try so hard if the result will be the same?  

What are the positives or validating a BPDw exactly? Will things change or get better? I felt happy being nice to her, because of course I married her for love, and it was nice to feel like we could get on. But it's false. We can't.  Will more effort make a positive difference? Or am I wasting my time?

[ohmygod]

In order for someone to change they need to work on it. Since she is not doing that she cannot change. And she does not want to change as in her tiny BPD world she is 100% right and white.

With that being said you can make your life easier to handle and diminish the worst outburst with the efforts you are putting in. Since you have another 9 years to go (as you said) you are doing the right and only thing at your disposal. keep it up... .

[formflier]

 Will more effort make a positive difference? Or am I wasting my time?

I'm making some guesses here... .that my thinking used to be like yours still is.

Many "nons" think that if I do x... .and I do it really well... .then the pwBPD will do y.

That's generally not even good thinking for a regular relationship, even though many times it works out that way.

I think "enmeshment" gets us to that place where we think we can control another person by us doing things a certain way. 

So... .direct answers. 

Validating is like adding lube oil.  Things just work better.  Really doesn't "fix" anything, but makes things run smoothly.

Don't base much of your evaluation on progress on the pwBPD actions.  Base progress on your actions.  (believe me... .this will become more apparent as you gain wisdom)

It was worth it... .for you!  Effort put in to you being a better person is a 100% guaranteed winner.  Because the benefits last, even if your relationship doesn't.

You can get along... .it will take time.

More effort will make a positive difference for you.

However you also need to focus on self care and "energy management".  When you know you have had a long week.  Care for yourself... .without apology.  This is a marathon... .not a sprint.

You are not wasting your time.

 

Keep up the good work!

FF

[teapay]

No, what you are experiencing is pretty normal.  Validation can help, but it can also take a while to have meaningful impact and there's no guarantee.     In my experience boundaries are much more important.  I also had to come to the point were I was okay if the marriage ended regardless of fall out.  Then boundaries got easier.  What I wanted, a big part of boundaries, became more important and more of a driver of what I did.

[VitaminC]

... .but honestly, it's been a tough day at work, and I don't have the energy to deal with this or her now.

That's ok, PFCI. Being validating and holding to your boundaries can be tiring. If you haven't the energy for it, it's best to remove yourself and spend some time recharging.  You can find a way to say that that is what you are doing; firmly, but gently.

So, I'm wondering, what did I achieve this week? All that effort for basically the same outcome? Was it worth it? Why not just not try so hard if the result will be the same?  

Have you had a reasonably good week? If so, then it's not been for nothing. My understanding is that validating and employing S.E.T and keeping your boundaries clear is a lifetime project. A way to manage your primary relationship with the added bonus of making all your relationships better by using these tools. My understanding is also that it takes practise and becomes easier with time, and that, yes, there will still be setbacks, but they get shorter, or less frantic, or the recovery from them is quicker with fewer bruises all around.

What are the positives or validating a BPDw exactly?

The same as validating anyone - making them feel heard and their feelings appreciated. It's not the same as agreeing with all the conclusions those feelings might lead to, but just saying 'yeah, I get that you feel x right now.'  The bar on the right here ----> says, among other things, "Embrace the realities of BPD".

What are some positives that came out of the week for you? What can you take away as a lesson?

[ohmygod]

I can't help but think how difficult it is to be on your guard all the time. And to know this is for life. Even those on thos board that are really good at enforcing boundaries and validating do not have an adult - adult rs but rather adult - child rs with their BPD partners. It is a sad thing, feels like a life sentence. I feel also part of all this and just wonder if I will ever be free... .But freedom is in my hands so maybe... .

[Notwendy]

Validating and treating people kindly isn't about just being nice to them. Sometimes, not being so nice- enforcing boundaries- is the way to act out of love. Keeping people happy may be enabling them. Validation does not involve soothing another person. It means being present, listening, and holding on to our own emotions- to soothe our own emotions in the presence of someone else who is upset. 

People with BPD have difficulty taking care of their own emotions, but so do people with co-dependent traits. When someone else is upset, we feel upset, and we manage this by soothing them. pwBPD may rely on us for their own self soothing, project their feelings, rage. But on the other side of the fence, we nons tend to fix, soothe, smooth things over in order to manage our own distress when they are distressed.

These ideas are proposed in the book Passionate Marriage which is not specific to BPD and despite its steamy title - ( and some content ) is about boundaries and managing emotions. It's an interesting read. But these ideas helped me see where I was prone to soothing others as a means of taking care of my own discomfort if others were upset. Instead of being tuned into my H's feelings, I had to pay more attention to mine when he was upset and to realize when, I could be of assistance- with validation - and when I could not.

We are human and certain states pre-dispose us to being irritable and not present. Being tired is one of them, or hungry, or angry helps us identify where we are needy and just not emotionally available and that we need to do some self care.

Progress in gaining relationship skills isn't necessarily linear. It can be trial and error, a step forward, a step backwards but in general, I think one can see the results of self work over time and it takes time. I don't know what the resources are in Japan for counseling, or co-dependency groups, but if there are any, I think the support and information one gains from this is valuable. Are you taking any steps to help you? Counseling?

IMHO, if there is to be any freedom from dysfunction, it has to start with our own selves. We aren't changing to be "nice" or fake to someone else. More likely we are learning to be nicer to ourselves- and when we care for ourselves- we are better able to be caring for others. I am not sure what freedom is possible when dealing with other people. I think it is inevitable that others will challenge us. But we do have choices in relationships- however, some choices are not easy.

Perhaps it would help to not think of this as a set back, but an event in the range of your relationship. Both of you came home tired and worn out. Neither of you were in the best of positions to self soothe. I think your statement " I don't have the energy to deal with her" is an honest appraisal of your state at the time. You didn't. Now to realize that this is OK, it happens, and excuse yourself from the conversation. This may be a change for her from your usual response. She may not like it as it leaves her with her own feelings, she may act out. It may look worse at the moment, but if you hold firm to the change, a new boundary may be in place.

[Woods77]

I've been trying hard to be nice, loving, validating all week.  But tonight my wife was all stressed and tired from work (but hey, so was I), and she found an excuse to be crappy to me and start a fight.  I didn't go fight back, and now I'm keeping out the way upstairs, but honestly, it's been a tough day at work, and I don't have the energy to deal with this or her now.  

So, I'm wondering, what did I achieve this week? All that effort for basically the same outcome? Was it worth it? Why not just not try so hard if the result will be the same?  

What are the positives or validating a BPDw exactly? Will things change or get better? I felt happy being nice to her, because of course I married her for love, and it was nice to feel like we could get on. But it's false. We can't.  Will more effort make a positive difference? Or am I wasting my time?

Firstly, well done for all the effort. Validating does help calm the extremes, you are helping her with her illness. Its a step in the right direction.

Im not sure if she is getting help, but if you can try to get her to look into DBT then you get take more steps to help. Perhaps buy some books on the subject and try explain the benefits.

[PFCI]

I've been trying hard to be nice, loving, validating all week.  But tonight my wife was all stressed and tired from work (but hey, so was I), and she found an excuse to be crappy to me and start a fight.  I didn't go fight back, and now I'm keeping out the way upstairs, but honestly, it's been a tough day at work, and I don't have the energy to deal with this or her now.  

So, I'm wondering, what did I achieve this week? All that effort for basically the same outcome? Was it worth it? Why not just not try so hard if the result will be the same?  

What are the positives or validating a BPDw exactly? Will things change or get better? I felt happy being nice to her, because of course I married her for love, and it was nice to feel like we could get on. But it's false. We can't.  Will more effort make a positive difference? Or am I wasting my time?

Firstly, well done for all the effort. Validating does help calm the extremes, you are helping her with her illness. Its a step in the right direction.

Im not sure if she is getting help, but if you can try to get her to look into DBT then you get take more steps to help. Perhaps buy some books on the subject and try explain the benefits.

Considering in her head she is great and perfect at everything, no chance she'll admit to having a problem or getting treatment.  Pretty sure she's NPD too.  That’s why in comparison I always look bad in her eyes.  She'll never accept I can do some things as well as or better than her... .

[Notwendy]

She'll never accept I can do some things as well as or better than her... .

In my experience, it is best to stay out of comparisons. If they wish to believe this, then no amount of explaining, JADEing, proving the truth can affect this- because of the tendency for feeling to be fact. If they feel this, then it must be true. We can't change other people's feelings.

My own solution to this was to not look to a disordered person for validation of what I believed to be true. Also, few people have similar skills and weaknesses. The most likely situation is that she is good at some things, you are good at some things and a comparison is not likely to lead to any harmony.

I understand this as it used to feel as if my H and I were in some kind of competition, that he had to win. But playing games where one person always wins is for 6 year olds. It takes two to play, so I just let that one go. If someone else wants to "win" at an argument or discussion, I often just drop the discussion on my end.

At this point, I would urge you to seek help and support for you. For her to seek help, she would have to want to do so. This may not make sense to you. I felt the same way- if the other person has the disorder why should I seek help?  Well for one, it was a source of validation, and I felt I had to have a reality check confirmed by someone - as a support for me. In addition, it helped to work on the issues that I was brining into the relationship. And if you are good at some things, know you are, even if she wants to believe otherwise.

[PFCI]

Validating and treating people kindly isn't about just being nice to them. Sometimes, not being so nice- enforcing boundaries- is the way to act out of love. Keeping people happy may be enabling them. Validation does not involve soothing another person. It means being present, listening, and holding on to our own emotions- to soothe our own emotions in the presence of someone else who is upset. 

People with BPD have difficulty taking care of their own emotions, but so do people with co-dependent traits. When someone else is upset, we feel upset, and we manage this by soothing them. pwBPD may rely on us for their own self soothing, project their feelings, rage. But on the other side of the fence, we nons tend to fix, soothe, smooth things over in order to manage our own distress when they are distressed.

These ideas are proposed in the book Passionate Marriage which is not specific to BPD and despite its steamy title - ( and some content ) is about boundaries and managing emotions. It's an interesting read. But these ideas helped me see where I was prone to soothing others as a means of taking care of my own discomfort if others were upset. Instead of being tuned into my H's feelings, I had to pay more attention to mine when he was upset and to realize when, I could be of assistance- with validation - and when I could not.

We are human and certain states pre-dispose us to being irritable and not present. Being tired is one of them, or hungry, or angry helps us identify where we are needy and just not emotionally available and that we need to do some self care.

Progress in gaining relationship skills isn't necessarily linear. It can be trial and error, a step forward, a step backwards but in general, I think one can see the results of self work over time and it takes time. I don't know what the resources are in Japan for counseling, or co-dependency groups, but if there are any, I think the support and information one gains from this is valuable. Are you taking any steps to help you? Counseling?

IMHO, if there is to be any freedom from dysfunction, it has to start with our own selves. We aren't changing to be "nice" or fake to someone else. More likely we are learning to be nicer to ourselves- and when we care for ourselves- we are better able to be caring for others. I am not sure what freedom is possible when dealing with other people. I think it is inevitable that others will challenge us. But we do have choices in relationships- however, some choices are not easy.

Perhaps it would help to not think of this as a set back, but an event in the range of your relationship. Both of you came home tired and worn out. Neither of you were in the best of positions to self soothe. I think your statement " I don't have the energy to deal with her" is an honest appraisal of your state at the time. You didn't. Now to realize that this is OK, it happens, and excuse yourself from the conversation. This may be a change for her from your usual response. She may not like it as it leaves her with her own feelings, she may act out. It may look worse at the moment, but if you hold firm to the change, a new boundary may be in place.

This is a big problem for me, her happiness is my happiness, her anger is my distress. My feelings basocially depend  on hers. I'm getting better at separating the two, but it's hard to do. I'm away on business now, and my wife called me last night.I didn't notice and so didn't pick up, and that set her off, angry texts, refusing to talk to me. I still felt bad last night and this morning, despite the fact I did nothing wrong. To be honest,I think she isn't happy about the way I'm not reacting to her so much anymore. Last weekend, she was happy, so I was happy. But that's not really good, I think. 

Basically seems I've got a lot of work to do to escape 11 years of conditioning... .

[PFCI]

She'll never accept I can do some things as well as or better than her... .

In my experience, it is best to stay out of comparisons. If they wish to believe this, then no amount of explaining, JADEing, proving the truth can affect this- because of the tendency for feeling to be fact. If they feel this, then it must be true. We can't change other people's feelings.

My own solution to this was to not look to a disordered person for validation of what I believed to be true. Also, few people have similar skills and weaknesses. The most likely situation is that she is good at some things, you are good at some things and a comparison is not likely to lead to any harmony.

I understand this as it used to feel as if my H and I were in some kind of competition, that he had to win. But playing games where one person always wins is for 6 year olds. It takes two to play, so I just let that one go. If someone else wants to "win" at an argument or discussion, I often just drop the discussion on my end.

At this point, I would urge you to seek help and support for you. For her to seek help, she would have to want to do so. This may not make sense to you. I felt the same way- if the other person has the disorder why should I seek help?  Well for one, it was a source of validation, and I felt I had to have a reality check confirmed by someone - as a support for me. In addition, it helped to work on the issues that I was brining into the relationship. And if you are good at some things, know you are, even if she wants to believe otherwise.

I never try and win, but it's really normal stuff like charming, brushing teeth and driving she assumes I'm terrible at. So no matter how hard I try, I'll always do a bad job. Eventually, I stopped trying to please her, cos it was never gonna happen.

[formflier]

So... .you stopped trying to please her... .but do you still listen or participate in her comparing and criticism?

Good on your for getting rid of an external motivator.  Do stuff for you.  Be good at things because you want to be good at them

FF

[Notwendy]

Basically seems I've got a lot of work to do to escape 11 years of conditioning...

Yes, but take heart- it can take time and work, but it is possible. Sometimes when I am feeling upset, I have to ask myself "is this my feeling?" if not, then I can work on not being responsible for it.


As to the brushing teeth, that's just junk if you think about it. They are your teeth, and you can brush them however you like.

Sometimes humor is invalidating but sometimes it can diffuse a situation. Something like that might prompt me to get a cartoon character toothbrush to just appear so silly it would be hard to criticize me and not laugh. You'll have to decide on that one. My other option would be to ignore it.

[PFCI]

Basically seems I've got a lot of work to do to escape 11 years of conditioning...

Yes, but take heart- it can take time and work, but it is possible. Sometimes when I am feeling upset, I have to ask myself "is this my feeling?" if not, then I can work on not being responsible for it.


As to the brushing teeth, that's just junk if you think about it. They are your teeth, and you can brush them however you like.

Sometimes humor is invalidating but sometimes it can diffuse a situation. Something like that might prompt me to get a cartoon character toothbrush to just appear so silly it would be hard to criticize me and not laugh. You'll have to decide on that one. My other option would be to ignore it.

Ｉ　ｊｕｓｔ　ｉｇｎｏｒｅ　ｉｔ．　　It's clearly ridiculous.  But for years now I won't drive the car if she's in it, as she assumes that I'm going to crash and kill us all any second.  She b___es, complains and gets angry about my driving so much, I absolutely won't drive when she's in the car unless I have too.

Then she complains she has to drive all the time... .

Exactly the same story with my cooking.  So I never cook now, and she complains about that, too.  Talk about double binds.

[PFCI]

So I made it through the weekend, just.

Actually, most of the weekend, she was really nice.  This is what I imagine a normal marriage is like.  

Sunday, she was acting up a bit, and just before  we left the house (she was going to go grocery shopping, I was going to the park with the kids), she lost it over a minor infraction, I stayed calm, tried to validate as I could, but no dice, she was gone.

Eventually we all get in the car, but she's still angry.  Starts trying to guilt me by saying that she'll take me back home, then the kids can't go to the park, and that's my fault.  I apologise for what I actually did wrong, but apparently that's not enough, so home we go.  She throws the house keys at me, I leave them where they fell, get out of the car.  She drives off.

Now, I always carry a back door key in my wallet, as I get locked out quite often.  But instead of going inside and doing some housework or something, I decide to go for a walk, get a coffee, turn the situation into something fun, and I don't feel bad about that.  

!0 minutes later, a call comes.  She's coming to pick me up.  I explain I'm not at home as I have no keys, and arrange to meet her.  Get picked up, then dropped at the park with the kids.  We play for an hour, she comes back from shopping, all calm.  

Normally, this kind of situation would drag on for hours, but by refusing to fight and setting some boundaries, seems things are getting better?

She was still really nit-picky all night, and to be honest I got so tired of it, I just removed myself from the situation as much as possible.  

Get up this morning, quick chat a kiss goodbye (from me, of course),  then I'm out the door.   And a massive sense of relief that I'm free for a few hours.

This weekend was hard due to all the good times making me believe that this relationship isn't so bad after all (it is), followed by the explosion.  

It's the up and down that does for me the most.  

Sorry again for the long post.

[formflier]

Solid work using tools!   

she lost it over a minor infraction, I stayed calm, tried to validate as I could, but no dice, she was gone.

Can you do some "he said... she said" on this part of it?  I think we can give you some better guidance if see understand the minor infraction and the verbal back and forth.

Note:  Many times there is no infraction (I would caution you on trying to assign any blame to yourself)... .

For the future... .instead of conceding that she has a "point" and you did have an "infraction"... .focus on that she has an "emotion" and that you "are there for her"

Good job on keeping house key.  I have independent sets of keys that I don't co-mingle with hers.  Who picked up the keys that she threw?

Did she kick you out... .or you and the kids?

Can you do some he said she said when she was "blaming you for the park"?  Trying to assign blame.

 
What was it that you apologized for?


 

Normally, this kind of situation would drag on for hours, but by refusing to fight and setting some boundaries, seems things are getting better?

This is where you find your hope.  Who is not much more in control of the "temperature" of the relationship?

Get up this morning, quick chat a kiss goodbye (from me, of course),  then I'm out the door.   And a massive sense of relief that I'm free for a few hours.

What happens if you don't kiss her?  What if you stood by the door and said... ."kiss and squeeze are ready... .come and get it!" (in a fun way).  You are making clear that you want to "do" relationship with her... .but you aren't chasing and are giving her a choice.  This is not a huge point, but illustration of general principal to "not chase" but to give them choices while letting them know you want to be in relationship with them.
 
Really good job working the tools!   

FF

[PFCI]

Sorry for the late reply.

formflier

Can you do some "he said... she said" on this part of it?  I think we can give you some better guidance if see understand the minor infraction and the verbal back and forth.

Note:  Many times there is no infraction (I would caution you on trying to assign any blame to yourself)... .

For the future... .instead of conceding that she has a "point" and you did have an "infraction"... .focus on that she has an "emotion" and that you "are there for her"

We have screen doors outside the main doors of our house.  One is rather large (custom made, so to avoid dragging it off it's track's, she told me to hold it a few centimeters above the middle line and move it.

I misheard/misunderstood this about the middle line, and that was where I was holding it and moving it when she saw me and exploded.  She never explains herself well, and the language barrier doesn't help.  

Did she kick you out... .or you and the kids?

Can you do some he said she said when she was "blaming you for the park"?  Trying to assign blame.

 
What was it that you apologized for?

Just me.  The blame was that if I didn't make her feel better and apologise enough, she'd throw me out of the car, then the kids couldn't go to the park as they need an adult with them, and my wife had to go shopping.  Blaming me and getting the kids involved, too.  I apologized not holding the door in the right place, and said I'd do it correctly in the future.

She threw the keys at me when we were sitting in the car.  I left them sitting in the passenger foot well.  No way I'm picking them up.

 

What happens if you don't kiss her?  What if you stood by the door and said... ."kiss and squeeze are ready... .come and get it!" (in a fun way).  You are making clear that you want to "do" relationship with her... .but you aren't chasing and are giving her a choice.  This is not a huge point, but illustration of general principal to "not chase" but to give them choices while letting them know you want to be in relationship with them.
 
Really good job working the tools!  

FF

Nothing would happen.  We never kiss.  She has no interest.  Having said that, now I've started to do it, she seems more interested.  Today I left for work, and she was hovering near the door like she was waiting for something.  But I didn't kiss her. Probably I should have.

[formflier]

Can you give more details on her "exploding"?

When she gets loud... .consider this... .please don't do it yet.

"I'm not comfortable with this conversation when yelling is between us.  I'll be back in 10 minutes."  walk away.

Might need to find a different word other than yelling.  Notice that you haven't accused her of it... .you are stating what you are experiencing and that you are not comfortable.  She can assign and process this on her own.  You are letting her know you will be back.

FF challenge:  "Hey... .you look good.  I've got a kiss for you over here... ."  be playful.  If she shuts you down... .wish her good day.

FF