What do they see?

[Parents! Get help here!]

This is an odd query of sorts - does the BPD person in your life care about neatness? Cleanliness?

My DD (in a wheelchair) and grand daughter live with us temporarily. We moved our office so my DD could have her own space, with a bath, small fridge, 2 dressers, chair, bookcase, her bed, TV, and a beautiful oriental rug that was her grandmothers. Granddaughter sleeps in a small room next to the guest room (was my DD's) where I sleep.

My DD *says* she's a germaphobe... .and washes the clean pots and pans again before she cooks, so there are no "disgusting bits". She likes nice clothes, is careful about her personal hygiene, and her daughters. She likes talking about fashion and colors used in interiors. She likes the rooms and beautiful costumes in period movies.

So here's the rub - she lets her room turn into a trash heap. No exaggeration, the dogs head straight for it as soon as they get in the house because it's like an open garbage can. Candy, chips, any snack; cups and glasses, usually half full; clothes strewn everywhere, cigarette butts spilling out of her purse where she tries to hid them; pizza boxes, hair stuff, spilled lotion, old broken parts of things left on the floor... .only takes a week to pile up after cleaning it.

Now this is odd to me - she likes nice things and she likes to look nice - so why does she live in a trash heap? And act only a little embarrassed when I offer to help clean up? And yes she is in a wheel chair, so cleaning is harder, but there doesn't really seem to be desire?

In addition, she really only likes "new" food. And if it's leftovers, she doesn't usually want to eat it. I used to do a dinner once a week where I made dipping sauces and we just put out all the left overs and dipped them - she lived that. But she won't do it herself. The result is that she throws away $$$ of food away every month, even though she's on food stamps.

Before anyone gets the idea that we keep a fastidiously neat house, think again. We are not at all perfectionists in this regard. So I wonder if this is wrapped up in her BPD traits - as in she misses understanding things (usually because emotions kick in) so I think it's not that she doesn't care, but that she blocks it because her emotional needs never direct her to clean up, or that cleaning up could make her feel better about herself because it becomes too overwhelming too quickly.

I used to *jokingly* tell people she left because I wanted her to clean her room... .and in fact that was somewhat true - she did not want to follow any basic living standards set by us because that meant we were in "control".

So she went and lived on the streets and in camp grounds and eventually low income housing. They were all full of garbage.

Anyone else with this problem? Thoughts?

[Lifenow]

This is an odd query of sorts - does the BPD person in your life care about neatness? Cleanliness?

My DD (in a wheelchair) and grand daughter live with us temporarily. We moved our office so my DD could have her own space, with a bath, small fridge, 2 dressers, chair, bookcase, her bed, TV, and a beautiful oriental rug that was her grandmothers. Granddaughter sleeps in a small room next to the guest room (was my DD's) where I sleep.

My DD *says* she's a germaphobe... .and washes the clean pots and pans again before she cooks, so there are no "disgusting bits". She likes nice clothes, is careful about her personal hygiene, and her daughters. She likes talking about fashion and colors used in interiors. She likes the rooms and beautiful costumes in period movies.

So here's the rub - she lets her room turn into a trash heap. No exaggeration, the dogs head straight for it as soon as they get in the house because it's like an open garbage can. Candy, chips, any snack; cups and glasses, usually half full; clothes strewn everywhere, cigarette butts spilling out of her purse where she tries to hid them; pizza boxes, hair stuff, spilled lotion, old broken parts of things left on the floor... .only takes a week to pile up after cleaning it.

Now this is odd to me - she likes nice things and she likes to look nice - so why does she live in a trash heap? And act only a little embarrassed when I offer to help clean up? And yes she is in a wheel chair, so cleaning is harder, but there doesn't really seem to be desire?

In addition, she really only likes "new" food. And if it's leftovers, she doesn't usually want to eat it. I used to do a dinner once a week where I made dipping sauces and we just put out all the left overs and dipped them - she lived that. But she won't do it herself. The result is that she throws away $$$ of food away every month, even though she's on food stamps.

Before anyone gets the idea that we keep a fastidiously neat house, think again. We are not at all perfectionists in this regard. So I wonder if this is wrapped up in her BPD traits - as in she misses understanding things (usually because emotions kick in) so I think it's not that she doesn't care, but that she blocks it because her emotional needs never direct her to clean up, or that cleaning up could make her feel better about herself because it becomes too overwhelming too quickly.

I used to *jokingly* tell people she left because I wanted her to clean her room... .and in fact that was somewhat true - she did not want to follow any basic living standards set by us because that meant we were in "control".

So she went and lived on the streets and in camp grounds and eventually low income housing. They were all full of garbage.

Anyone else with this problem? Thoughts?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi there lifenow

My BPDs25 returned home in December and I decided to try and deal with my issue over his room differently. I had some temporary success.

I used to leave his room to him. It was TERRIBLE. When he left it took me two weeks and it had to be gutted, there were things living in the carpet!

This time I started to go into the room and pick up a bit. He thanked me so I felt I'd got the all clear to go in and keep it sort of presentable. I introduced a bin and a large laundry basket and he does use them. I stopped going in about 4 months ago as his gf stays over. It's back to his old way of living but (apparently) there is some order to it. I say "really?"

The contradiction to what's going on in his mind to how he behaves is striking.  My BPDs now takes pride in his appearance, his clothes are clean. He watches closely what he eats and is a bit obsessed with additives. He doesn't drink alcohol because it's "toxic".  Yet, he smokes cigarettes and weed. He used to pop codeine pills.

When we were away on holiday we stayed in a place without any laundry facilities and we were in the middle of nowhere. I told him he could wash a few things in the bath and hang them out to dry as he'd run out of clean clothes. He did the washing and drying but would not wear them. His point being "it's so hot, I've been sweating and releasing toxins and there's no way I can wear those clothes that have been sitting in that water. I really need to go to a thrift store and I'll buy a few things". That's exactly what he did - happy to buy old tshirts that most probably hadn't been washed in a very long time worn by whoever. No logic!

I've no problem with buying from thrift shops by the way but I'd definitely wash it first before wearing,

I think my BPDs does see the mess. It's just that because his mind is full of thoughts, it's just not a high enough priority as he struggles to think and cope with life.

There's lots of threads on this trait. I feel it's a very common issue in our homes.

I was making some headway in demonstrating how little effort it takes to keep things a bit organised. I feel that waking up to such dirty chaos each and every day isn't good for anyone's mental health. But I'm leaving him to it unless he asks for my help.

[Bright Day Mom]

I can relate to messy rooms... .oh boy.   Our D has improved tremendously in this area, but only thru her Residential placement. They will not tolerate it one bit!  She is now beginning to spend more overnights home and the difference is amazing!  I think one of the key elements here is to keep the qty on the low end and use as many organizers as humanly possible.  I think my D tends to get overwhelmed w/lots of clothes, accessories, etc.  When she has few pcs it is much more manageable.  As far as food in the bedrooms... .it is a house rule, NO WAY!  This has been a standing rule since the girls were little, I scared them by telling them the bugs will come out night when they are sleeping.  Your kids are too old for this, but they aren't too old for a boundary, just need to set and enforce it.

Good luck in getting your home back.

[Lifenow]

Thx Lollypop and Bright Day Mom

Fortunately I now know better than to "demand" anything or impose rules - that turns the situation ugly very fast. She is of the personality type to flee when cornered with rules and we have to pick our battles. When she was in RTC for a short time she found many ways to get around the rules because she only saw them as another form of control... .not useful for anything in her life.

I do not think this is deliberate or used as a passive aggressive technique, rather it piles up before she "sees" it and her habits or her desire to clean are not there to prevent it from happening. I also know she is embarrassed about it, but not enough to trade watching Netflix for a few episodes to deal with it.

Like your son, Lollypop she is allowing some help, and I'm very careful to ask what I can touch because she accuses us of throwing things away when they get lost.  Now that she isn't trying to hide smoking or weed it is easier to contain the areas - she only smokes outside.  Our front porch looks like a college student rental, but at least it is limited.

I have learned over the years that if she can find a personal attack in a statement, look, or an action, she will. There is a perpetually joker like smile on my face that I put there when I am around her, otherwise I can be accused of "being mad".  There is nothing assumed. I don't assume she knows I am taking out the trash or walking the dog when I leave the house with the trash or the dogs.

I tell her step by step what I plan to do, when I plan to do it, and how long I think it will take me. It has worked to diffuse her potential misunderstandings about simple things, and keep her calmer. It also takes stress away from me when she understands what is happening.

Reading her emotional temperature has taken longer - I have to be very careful when introducing new ideas that will require action on her part - and I have had many misses... .usually because I'm tired and just spit out what I think. Bad move.

Basically my standards are not what they were and I'm not sure that is a bad thing because I have learned more tolerance. I keep really special things hidden, but other than that I try to share everything that has a story with my DD to keep her connected to this world.

I just wonder if BPD people feel like they don't "deserve" to live in nice surroundings because they feel such low self worth, and then it's a self fullfilling prophesy.

[Yepanotherone]

Hi Lifenow , I personally think it must be part of BPD . My DD used to be very tidy and organised , liked to plan ahead and was punctual for everything ( unlike me, I'm always running late !) this last few months though as her symptoms have developed and evolved , her bedroom floor is literally a second closet. She's forever shopping online and in thrift stores (the online shopping has almost become  a compulsion and thrift store shopping has become a distraction Coping mechanism -,when she says " can we go thrifting ?" I jump start to it because that's her telling me she's not feeling great and needs distraction ) she has soo much stuff now it's unbelievable! Stuff she's never worn still with labels on it . Her room is a mess ! Not dirty per say because I admit I can only stand to look at it for so long , so every now and again i just have to clean it coz she won't do it herself . She wasn't always like this , in fact she hated mess and would often clean up the kitchen etc ,sometimes in the middle of the night ... .Red flag likely bipolar symptoms !) . But that's all a thing of the past now .
Another thing that drives me nuts and creates even more mess in her bedroom ... .She'll change her outfit 4/5 times a day . So when she's changing , everything just gets tossed onto the floor .

[Lollypop]

Hi lifenow and yep

Thanks so much for your posts. They've got me thinking.

It hadn't occurred to me that my bods25 is trying on lots of clothes. This would explain a lot. His room is very small and it doesn't help the situation as he has a lot of clothes now. He has said "what's the point in spending the time in hanging stuff up?". He never puts his clothes away as he has a clean pile and dirty pile system.

I used to think it was about low self-worth and also maybe depression. I know he does recognise cleaning his room as part of his challenges to try and take care of himself. His washing his own clothes is part of this task and he's really quite good at that.

I've no answer but hope eventually I'll find a resolution before he moves out.

I found your description fascinating and a lot of it really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing as it reminded me how basic I need to go sometimes when communicating.

Have a great day

[DisneyMom]

My 17 year old BPD DD's room is a mess. Clothes all over the floor, dishes and food garbage piled up on her nightstand. And it smells really bad. She's keeps the lights off and curtains closed and nests in her bed. She struggles with low energy, depression, and isolating herself in her room periodically. The mess in the room is overwhelming to her, so she avoids it. She never has anyone over to our house, she's constantly spending all her social time out in public or at other people's places. She used to get stuck on organizing very small things like earrings in a very OCD manner, and never finish actually cleaning the room. Hyper-focus on some little detail thing for a long time, and not pay any attention to picking up the big things that would make so much more of an impact. That was so frustrating to watch her stuck in that struggle a year and two ago. But now she doesn't even do that. Yes she likes nice clothes, brand names are very important to her. Clean laundry, not so much. She's rather take some clothes of her sisters, borrow from a friend or otherwise acquire things before caring for her own. She has open hanging closets because she claims she has to "see" everything. When she does hang her clothes, she uses safety pins with hangers, and they have to be organized in a certain meticulous way. But mostly, clothes pile up on her floor and in baskets, you can't really "see" everything this way, so it's hard for me to follow her thinking on that.

After she came home from RTC, our relationship was better, and we were so happy to have her home, we let the small things go. She spent several home visit weekends re-painting her room, but once she was home she covered the walls with magazine cut outs of random things (using nail polish as glue). I think she needed a project to keep herself busy. Also, since they made her take this stuff down at the RTC, she was kind of doing it just because now she could. They are still up almost 3 years later. It's not pretty, and very juvenile, even for a teenager. I think she may even not like it anymore. She tried to take some down on one wall, and they didn't remove easy or completely at all. It looks terrible, and it would take a herculean effort to really fix this, so the walls remain this way.

I know when she moves out I will have to gut the room and even re-sheetrock the walls. I've no doubt she will try moving out shortly after becoming a legal adult. She will find the real world a lot tougher than she thinks, and I'm certain she will be back, which is fine. But I'm picturing her bedroom with a lot less stuff and a lot more rules at that point. We'll see.

[Lifenow]

Thank you all for your insights, and yes my daughter used to change her clothes many times a day too!  Now that need for "new" or change seems to be focused on exotic foods and changing my granddaughter's clothes, but she still poops in her pants so that makes more sense  .

I have to keep reminding myself that this world is frightening to my DD, and she lives in constant fear - of the unknown, that she might be embarrassed if she is challenged, that she is stupid, that she will abandoned. So her reaction is not suicide attempts, (however she was a cutter and let other people do horrible things to her... .) but severe defiance, oppositional and accusatory behaviors. This is what made it SO hard to see that she was frightened, because her behavior was so nasty.

I'm a bull in a china shop by comparison, but I was not always that way. I too felt controlled by my emotions in my teens and twenties, but it's not the same for her - there's no window she thinks she can look through to see the more confident side of herself.

So my thinking now is that she WISHES her environment were neat and clean, but like Disney mom's DD the OCD type of organization is just not possible to maintain for anyone, so they cannot possible achieve that standard and they just give up, thinking they have failed again.

The really weird thing is that she will spend HOURS cleaning when someone is coming over to visit - and she will exhaust herself doing it. So she does care.

[mummydearest]

My daughter's room is a mess and any of her belongings that make it out of there are in piles around the house. She hasn't been showering lately or giving much thought into personal hygiene. She gets wrapped up in things and loses sight. She also seems to get overwhelmed very quickly to the point of no return. Just can't function. Recently received a kindle fire and that's all she can think about. Trying to use it as a tool to get her motivated. I just want her healthy and safe. I don't know how much longer i can do this with her.

[Lifenow]

As I watch my DD day to day, it's really apparent that in spite of the fact that she is educated, smart, and thinks about a great deal of things, she still needs help putting on foot in front of the other.

I just finished doing the dishes, after making dinner and a long day. My DD did not offer to help, and she headed straight out the door to smoke her pack of cigs and watch Netflix for the night. If I asked her to help she might, but then it is difficult for two people to be at the sink and the pans are heavy. So I just let it go.

For me, the most frustrating thing about this illness is the overlay of competence on a very unstable base. If I'm caught thinking she is launching into normal adult independence, I can really dig a deep hole of misunderstanding and fear. It's just that she SAYS she wants things all independent people do, then make no move to make it happen.

Right now my personal rules are:
No conflict
No criticism
No frowns
No type A behavior
No fixed schedule - everything is flexible
No surprises
No change of plans at the last minute
No parenting - for her or my granddaughter
No expression of disappointment
No expectations.

Do everything as though she is on the autistic spectrum and cannot see reality.

It's the only way I can survive this time with her.
 

[Lollypop]

Hi life now

I can really relate to what you're saying. I too realised there needed to be stability while I learnt about BPD. I've found I can communicate a lot better and can now see progress without me criticising or trying to control with rules. I have a few boundaries and limits like paying a weekly contribution to my bods25 living expenses.

He will do most things if I ask and sometimes I do ask. He does manage to work casually in a regular basis.

Very interestingly, he has two guys he works for and they've offered to pay for a course my BPDs needs to earn more money.  My BPDs said "well, they really like me mum. They love my ocd (? Undx) and I'm such a tidy and fast worker".  I told him laughingly "shame this doesn't extend to your room".  He said "I just can't keep it organised no matter how hard I try".

I've created an environment that is practically stress free. There's been real progress in the last 10 months and BPDs is now saving towards a vehicle (previously unheard of behaviour and only since we stopped "helping by giving money".  However, it is still frustratingly slow and I'm very aware of not holding him in a state of inertia. I have to see him trying to learn how to look after himself.

He does not seek treatment yet. I'm hopeful for the first time

Hugs

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders