Affair, prostitutes, loving husband

[Annie99]

I was in complete shock when I found out my husband of fourteen years was having an emotional affiar with a co-worker one year ago.  He ended the affiair, though was still obsessed with her for months until he reached a point where he "hated her and wished she would commit suicide." We have been in marriage couples counselling with a psychologist since the affair was exposed. It also came to light that my husband is addicted to porn and has been seeing prostitutes, once in 2010 and twice since the affiair was exposed and we were in counselling (I suspect this is not full disclosure).

The psychologist told me I have codependent tendancies and I have been working hard on recovery ever since I was told this. The psychologist is reluctant to diagnose my husband but has said that he has borderline tendencies.  I have told my husband that I need him to see a dr and get a diagnosis, have no porn in our house, not see prostitutes, not lie, get into individual therapy and remove the locks on his computer and cellphone if I am going to work on our relationship.  He has not yet replied to my conditions, which are really what I need to be in a relationship with anyone.

We have two school aged children and i feel overwhelmed at the thought of dismantling our life and putting our children through a divorce. I no longer sleep with my husband and I cannot sleep without sleeping pillls. I have been doing a lot of journalling and working on myself to reduce the constant anxiety that I have.  It has been a year and a month. The counsellor has told me I need to try and stay away from my "urgency" to do something but my life feels so wrong. I am very worried about my children.  But I realize that it is almost impossible to save my realtionship with my husband at this point. I feel very stuck.

[VitaminC]

Hi Annie,



I am glad you found us. It sounds like you are having a tough time right now, so it's good you are here as many of our members will be able to relate and offer support and insights from their own experience to you. It always helps to talk and have acknowledged that what you are going through is hard and to know that others understand. Infidelity in a relationship can come as a terrible blow and, although I think it is possible for a relationship to recover from it, it does entail work from both parties.

You don't need to make all the decisions right now; I can imagine how overwhelming that must be, particularly with two young children to care for and about. I can understand the feeling of urgency and a kind of paralysis that accompanies it - a stressful place to be.

Maybe you could have a look at through some of the links over here on the right ---> Choosing a Path, to start. We have some really great resources on the site that I've found very helpful in  my own healing process.

What is your communication with your husband day to day like? Have you friends or family near that you can also talk to and for other forms of support?  What do you think is the first thing you need that might help you? 

[Notwendy]

Hi Annie,

I didn't deal with infidelity but I did have a wise T who prompted me to work on co-dependency and to resist the urge to "do something now" while I was emotionally distraught. Her decision was not about staying married or not, but about not making a life altering decision while being emotionally distraught. Such things are better made with a clear mind.

She also focused on my co-dependency and not my H. This initially made me angry! Why me? But dealing with co-dependency was very valuable to me, and it was something I could do for myself, in or out of a relationship. First she established that I was not in physical danger in the marriage.

The marriage is an incentive to work on co-dependency, but it wasn't the only one. There were benefits to me personally and to my kids. I think it made me a better parent. Another incentive was that, even if I didn't know the outcome of my relationship, if I remained co-dependent, then the risk of re-creating a similar pattern in another relationship was there. Ending a marriage would not solve that. So, it made sense to work on me no matter what happened.

Another motivation to work on my tendencies, and work on better communication in my marriage was that when there are children, divorce does not end the relationship with their father. If working on the marriage didn't work out, then the benefits of better communication would still help.

The decision to stay or leave is a very personal one- there is not an absolute right or wrong about either one- basically pros and cons that each person has to determine for themselves. Surely, if at any point you feel you would be in danger, then a decision to protect your safety is urgent. But if the decision isn't urgent, then your T may want to help you get to a place where what to do seems clearer to you.

Your boundaries with your H are reasonable. You do not have to accept infidelity if it is something you do not wish to accept. Sleeping in another room is also a boundary- it protects your feelings as well as your health- sex with prostitutes is a health risk.  However, regardless of your H's choices, you can continue to work on your co-dependent tendencies. It is good you are seeing someone for emotional support.

[Annie99]

Thank you so much for your replies.  After reading them, I realized I am not in a good position right now to make a good decision and I have made an appointment with a therapist for individual counselling.  Last night I asked my husband for a response to my requests - he said the requests made him very angry and he wasnt sure he wanted to stay in our relationship and he wasnt sure if he even liked me. He did agree to get tested for STDs but said he is sick as always being painted as the bad guy (he feels that my anger at him over the years caused his porn and prostitution use as well as the emotional affair). Today he told me he's going to buy a new car, which I requested he not do until we have our lives more sorted out as I am concerned about financials if we end up splitting up. His response was to go completely still and stare right ahead, which means he was very angry. I took the kids and went out for an hour, he seemed calmer when I returned.

I am getting better at managing my emotions and not letting his affect me so much. I never knew life could be so hard.

[VitaminC]

Thank you so much for your replies.  After reading them, I realized I am not in a good position right now to make a good decision and I have made an appointment with a therapist for individual counselling. 

That's great, Annie. That will help you. Self-care is important now. I am glad you have taken this step as I believe, based on my own experience, that this "massage for the mind/soul" is helpful.

Last night I asked my husband for a response to my requests - he said the requests made him very angry and he wasnt sure he wanted to stay in our relationship and he wasnt sure if he even liked me. He did agree to get tested for STDs but said he is sick as always being painted as the bad guy (he feels that my anger at him over the years caused his porn and prostitution use as well as the emotional affair).

Your request is absolutely reasonable. His reaction seems, to me, to be par for the course in terms of accepting responsibility for one's behaviour. 

Today he told me he's going to buy a new car, which I requested he not do until we have our lives more sorted out as I am concerned about financials if we end up splitting up. His response was to go completely still and stare right ahead, which means he was very angry. I took the kids and went out for an hour, he seemed calmer when I returned.

Sounds like you handled that well.

I am getting better at managing my emotions and not letting his affect me so much. I never knew life could be so hard.

That is very good progress! I hope you let yourself feel good about that part of things. It's important to note and celebrate these kinds of successes.

What's next on your agenda?

[Notwendy]

It is hard. I think dealing with co-dependency takes hard work- it did for me, and it is a work in progress. But I also think the benefits make it worthwhile. We don't lose empathy for someone who is upset ( and blaming us), but we also become less reactive, less upset about it ourselves. It isn't that we don't get upset, but that, as you say- we can manage our own feelings better.

I think it is great that you made an appt with a T- to take care of you.

[formflier]

I want to join the others in saying that I am glad you found this site and especially give you a big thumbs up for taking a step to sort out yourself with a T!   

You are doing great work by establishing boundaries.  I would suggest that you bring that up as topic #1 with the T.  Help me understand healthy boundaries and how to lovingly communicate and enforce those boundaries.

Boundaries will create safe space for you to sort out who you are, what you feel and decisions that you can make for you.

I'll give one piece of advice.  Focus on your own emotions and your husbands actions.  I saw where you said something like "which means he was very angry".

Energy spent "interpreting" the emotions of pwBPD traits is usually wasted energy.

My hope is that your time on this site will help you learn to redirect that energy so you can give him supportive messages at the same time as you create space for you (taking kids out to let him calm)

Again... .welcome.  You have found a safe place.  We can help you on your journey.

FF

[Annie99]

Thank you to all of you that replied. It does feel like a relief to find people that "get it". My first meeting with my individual therapist will be in two days - this is a different therapist than we are seeing as a couple which I hope will help me.  I fell our couples therapist is a bit conflicted ie trying to help me as an individual as well as us as a couple. 

One of you wrote "My hope is that your time on this site will help you learn to redirect that energy so you can give him supportive messages at the same time as you create space for you (taking kids out to let him calm)." That is such good advice but so hard to implement in reality. I am really hoping work on myself will get me there. I went out to a family dinner on Monday - he told me on Sunday that he didnt want to go. On Monday I fully expected him to not come but as I was leaving I asked him "Are you sure you don't want to come?" and his respnse was "I don't think so." I said, "that doesnt soudn very certain, why don't you come? It's better than staying home by yourself." So he agreed to come. When we got home that evening, he asked me why I coereced him into going? I was so taken aback, I hardly knew how to reply. I assured him there was no coersion intended but he told me he didnt believe me.  When I thought about it later I got so angry - this is the typical behavour, blaming me for his actions. Must not react. Must not react.

The next day we saw our couples therapist. He asked why we hadnt been having dialogues. I explained, in front of my husband, that I often feel hatred coming from my husband which actually scares me when we have our dialogues (eg over my conditions to stay in the relationship). He suggested we talke about our kids, a safe topic as we both love them, though I am scared for him to be with them for too long without me to run intervention. So we did have a talk about the kids last night, which went well, and then he asked me when I was going to start sleeping with him again. Like the boundaries I laid down dont even exist. I just reolied that that was a whole other conversation and left.

For the life of me I cant understand why I didnt see this behaviour years ago. Did it really just start happenig in the last year? Is that possible? Or was I really in a fantasy world? I do believe his mental health has deteriorated significantly since the discovery of his affair. But he refuses to see a doctor and our psychologist has not provided him with a diagnosis (though he told me he has borderline tendancies).  I dont believe he has given full disclosure on his infidelities nor do I beileve couples counselling for an hour every two weeks is going to get him or us anywhere and I know I will never trust him again. So I continue to sleep on the floor in my childrens bedroom and wonder what happened to my life.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so sorry you're going through all this. I know how overwhelming it can be. My first husband was a serial adulterer among other unsavory issues. I really had no clue that he was having affairs right in front of me with women I thought were my friends. He also sought out prostitutes and confessed later.

It was so unimaginable to me that someone I thought I loved would behave that way. I didn't know about BPD then.

In sum, he kept me off balance constantly between the sexual acting out, violence and financial irresponsibility. As soon as things seemed to be on an even keel, he'd do something to throw off the balance. I was constantly in a reaction mode, trying to repair things that had gone awry.

We didn't have children, which made it far easier for me to detach myself from him. However it wasn't easy, by any means. I wish you the best as you figure out your path forward.   

[formflier]

One of you wrote "My hope is that your time on this site will help you learn to redirect that energy so you can give him supportive messages at the same time as you create space for you (taking kids out to let him calm)." That is such good advice but so hard to implement in reality. I am really hoping work on myself will get me there. 

It is hard to do in reality... .

So... .help us understand why it is hard to implement in reality?  More details are better... .If you can add in what you are thinking and feeling as you work through trying to create space... .that will help us.


Hopefully this analogy will help.  The first few times you go to the gym, your muscles hurt.  Then you feel yourself getting stronger.  Eventually you get to the point where when something happens and you miss the gym one day... .you actually feel worse for missing it.

Think of learning skills from bpdfamily much like going to the gym.  At first, it will feel weird (to you AND to your partner), then you will realize they work and really start learning.  At some point in the future you will have a booboo and "miss" using a tool and then will feel bad about it.

Couple other things jumped out at me. 

What can be done to get you a good nights sleep in a comfortable bed?

Couple concepts:

Let him be him. 

You are not responsible for his feelings or enjoyment of life.

You are responsible for clearly and directly communicating with him.

You are responsible for respecting his choices.  (very different than agreeing with them)

Take deep breath here, I'm not saying anything you did was right or wrong.  I do think that your invite to family dinner and your follow up came from a good place in your heart.  That "place in your heart" is great for dealing with nons.  That place in your heart can get you in trouble when dealing with a pwBPD traits.

You did a great job letting him know about family dinner.  He told you he didn't want to go. 

Totally appropriate for you to let him know on Monday that you were going and there was still an open seat in the car, but it would be best to leave it at that.

perhaps this would have been better

"Hey babe... .we'll be leaving in 15 minutes for the dinner.  Seat open if you change your mind."

then perhaps bring him some food home.

"I remembered you really liked the casserole that Aunt Milly makes... ."

Less is more.  Let him connect the dots in his head... .you are not responsible for explaining how he should connect them.

I realize there is a lot in this post.  Read it several times.  Ask questions... .think less about exactly what I said and look for a concept... .a "way of thinking".

FF

[Annie99]

To answer your question about why I feel so hard to implement in reality is I find it difficult to reply with the supportive message when I am being attacked.  I get that this is a skill and I am working on taking the deep breath and slowing down before responding.

I did see the new counsellor on Friday.  I will try him a couple more times but was not hugely impressed. He seemed to be pushing me towards leaving, which Im not ready to do right now. From a third party view, I can see why he would pus for this, why would anyone stay with someone that lies, cheats, sees prostitites, and blames it on his spouse? But I agree with people here that I need more healing before I move on.

I need some help with an incident last night.  He has moved into "super dad" mode which he does occassionally, after a bout of complete disinterest in what the kids are doing.  When I got up on Friday, kids lunches were already made and in their backpacks, my coffee ready just to push the button.
 Saturday there was a birthday party for the kids in the evening, I asked him if he wanted to take them, he wasnt keen so I said  I would. He was leaving the house at the same time we were, I asked him where he was going and he just said "out". Not the best answer to your wife when you have confessed to seeing prostitutes but I sucked it up and said, okay see you later.
When we got home, his behaviour was very strange. I put the kids to bed, I go in to check them every ten minutes until they fall asleep. He wenttinto their room a few times which is unusual and outside the 10 minute rule and then he would wander in circles around the house aimlessly. At one point he was crying in the kitchen. I asked him if he was all right but he didnt reply. He eventually want to bed.  Then around 11 PM, I was reading in the living room, husband comes out of our bedroom in his underwear, goes down to the kids bedroom and climbs into the top bunk (small single bunk) with my 9 year old son who is still awake. My spidey sesnses start to go off and I go in the room and ask what hes doing. My son is crammed against the bakc bars and seems uncomfortable. I ask him if he wants dad to get down, he replies "whatever dad wants".  My husband asks me to leave so I do for ten minutes and then go back in. I can see my son is wide awake, as far away from his dad as he can and cringing.  I say to my husband, our son is uncomfortable, please come down and let him sleep.  My husband immediately reaches over and starts stroking my sons hair, the way he would stroke mine if I was still sleeping with him. My son is cringing.  I've had enough - I tell him in a loud voice:Get down now! He listens to me, I don't know what I would have done otherwise. My son is now very upset.  I explain to him that its fine for mom or dad to go into his bed if he asks us (he often asks me to lie with him for 5 minutes before sleeping or asks me to get int he bed with him if hes had a nightmare) but everyone gets to pick if they want someone to sleep with them or not. My son seemed to get this and said "well it is a very small bed". I go out to speak to my husband who is angry at me, I try to diffuse, saying lets talk about this tomorrow but the kids get to have boundaries, He doesn't get that at all.  Please note I don't believe there was anything sexually inappropriate about what my husband was doing, its just that he was using my son to fill his own empty space in himself, the same way he has used pron, booze, prostitutes. He was not reading my sons uncomfortableness with the situation at all. He has no boundaries, the kids are there for him. So here is my issue with all the books I have read on codependency, detaching etc... .WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS? How can I go out and live my own life, do my own things, when I need to look after my kids? How can I leave my husband knowing he may get custody of them 50% of the time? Any advice on this very appreciated. Another sleepless night for me.

[VitaminC]

Dear Annie,

You ask a very qood question; what to do, how to leave your partner, once you've decided it's the best thing for you, if you feel that, actually, you are better able to protect your children (by intervention and providing guidelines, boundaries, and balance) as long as you are with your partner?

I am sure that other parents will chime in and provide some examples of how they did this. Have you seen the Co-Parenting Board? It's here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=9.0. Feel free to post in there as well to get viewpoints, tips, and resources on how such a relationship can function.

It is hard to validate and not JADE  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0 when we are being attacked. It's definitely a skill that can be learnt and that one gets better at. It sounds like you handled his leaving to go "out" very well indeed, with equanimity and grace, and I hope you are taking a moment to appreciate that about yourself.

I also understand that anyone's pushing you in a direction for which you yourself have not gathered momentum is not helpful. If your therapist is failing to understand and be supportive of your own process, you are also doing very well to recognize that. It is not an easy thing to do!  Therapy would ideally be a time for you to to work out your own questions and issues and to arrive at your own pace at the place that feels right for you. Not every therapist is necessarily a good fit.  It is wise for you to give this therapist a little more time, but to remain aware of what you need right now.

Take care, Annie 

[Turkish]

Hi Annie99,

I'm glad you are reaching out for help throughout all of this. It's massive betrayal to find out what he has been doing, and having children in the home and trying to both raise and protect them sounds like a massive amount of stress. Your requests sound reasonable to me given the situation, though I'd step away from saying that he needed to get some kind of diagnosis. On some level, he may know something is seriously wrong inside of him and if he's BPD, then he likely suffers from a core shame (that is to say, "I'm a bad person". This may be his feeling, even if he doesn't admit it. This is concerning:

I go out to speak to my husband who is angry at me, I try to diffuse, saying lets talk about this tomorrow but the kids get to have boundaries, He doesn't get that at all.  Please note I don't believe there was anything sexually inappropriate about what my husband was doing, its just that he was using my son to fill his own empty space in himself, the same way he has used pron, booze, prostitutes. He was not reading my sons uncomfortableness with the situation at all. He has no boundaries, the kids are there for him. So here is my issue with all the books I have read on codependency, detaching etc... .WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS?

What you are saying sounds like an accurate observation. Many Adult Children Of pwBPD (ACOBPD) write about their experiences on the Coping and Healing Board. Whether or not there is a sexual component, this has been termed emotional incest (see here for more).

That being said, your children's father either can't or has chosen not to control his sexual urges and acting out. As a parent and as a father (who also had to deal with this, but with another relative), I'd watch this very closely. You were right to tell him to get out of your son's bed. As parent's we can't teach our children to have healthy body boundaries if we violate them ourselves, especially given the emotional aspect of children wanting to please their parents even if on some level they feel something is off. Personally, I wouldn't want him to be alone with them.

This is a very real concern given if you separate and think that he might indeed get to be alone with them if he gets unsupervised custody of any percentage. At this point, it's important that you talk to your children, and your son. You can do this without asking leading questions "did daddy touch you here?" I had to step back from that and let my daughter talk in her words and language. If he feels he can trust you without judgement, then he will be honest. Maybe start by asking, "what caused you to cringe away from Daddy like that?"

I know this is very tough stuff, maybe the hardest parents have to deal with at a young age. Your demeanor (calm) can help them speak in their voice. It can be hard to do so while you are dealing with the anxiety of the issues between you and your husband as adults. Do you think you can talk to your son?

[formflier]

One thing that seems to be working good with my wife is an agreement to talk in private about parenting, vice talking in front of kids.  She does get huffy sometimes... .but generally will leave a room and come talk.

Perhaps you can set something like that up with your hubby.

"Hey... .let's go have a parenting meeting now please."

Vice giving commands to "get down".

I think you navigated that quite well. 

FF

[Notwendy]

Annie,

I cringed when I read about the part with your son. Not because your H did something sexually inappropriate, but he did not respect your son's personal boundaries and did use your son for his own emotional comfort in the moment. He wasn't focused at all at his son's needs ( for boundaries and personal space ) and he didn't consider the boy's request to get out of his bed.

Boundaries are important for all of us. As parents, it is our job to foster our children's boundaries. If we teach them that it is OK for someone they love to violate their boundaries- I believe we set them up for relationships with others who will not respect them.

I grew up in a situation where my parents didn't respect my boundaries and I was not allowed to stand up for myself. Your son was at a disadvantage - how could he stop his father from invading his personal space? And he was possibly confused too- as kids love attention from their parents. But it isn't OK to teach them that people who love each other are entitled to cross their boundaries.

The age of your son also is significant. He has not likely started puberty but he is on the verge of it, and children change emotionally and physically. They want more autonomy and privacy. They aren't as interested in cuddling with their parents. The become more interested in their peers over time. A self absorbed parent may not like that their child is growing away from them- but this is exactly what they need to do. They develop more boundaries about their body- they may not want their parent in the room when they are changing or bathing. It is important that we parents respect these boundaries- these are the same boundaries they need in relationships as they get older.

My kids loved bedtime stories and cuddling. Of course I bathed them when they were little, and helped them get dressed. It was about this age that they didn't want the bedtime cuddles, they had been bathing and dressing on their own. They didn't want parents in their personal space. They began to have crushes on kids in school and noticing TV and movie stars. I made a point to respect their boundaries- because these were the boundaries I wanted them to have  when they began dating.

Basically someone crawled into your son's bed and he said no. He has the right to say no to anyone who crawls into his bed uninvited. ( or violates his personal space )

And the other side of it: if someone says "no" to you when you are in their physical space, you don't ignore that.

Yes, it was a parent, not a stranger, but you want to teach him to keep his boundaries- and respect the other person's boundaries- with anyone- even people he loves and who loves him.

I don't know how much control you have over your H with this, but you can respect your son's boundaries on your part of this. You can also document this if it becomes an issue of custody. I don't know if speaking to your H about boundaries will help. I am sure he cares about your son- perhaps a T can speak to him- in a non blaming way- about how pre-teens and teens want more personal space so he doesn't take it as his son rejecting him.

[Annie99]

My son didn't actually ask him to leave, he said "whatever dad wants" but he is always trying to please his distant dad. Me asking his dad to get down did cause confusion for him, but I didnt know what else to do at that point. I generally dont do such things in front of the kids, but in this situation, I felt I had no choice.

My husband is really bad with boundaries, I have been trying hard to get him to respect the kids boundaries, but have probably been going about it all wrong, given that my husband in all likelihood is a pwBPD. For example at bedtime, he will go into their bedroom to take their clothes off to get ready for bed - if I am there I will say "leave them! they are old enough to get changed by themsleves". I have also taught them how to shampoo their own heair but my husband for some reason insists on shampooing their hair if he is the one in charge of showers.

I need to find a way to make my husband understand boundaries. He wanted to speak to me last night about what happened with me asking him to get down off the bed but he got so angry we had to stop. Something along the lines of me being so manipulative, and bat ___ crazy and going on about boundaries and I dont know what Im talking about. He was just trying to help his son that was having a hard time getting to sleep. I think he perhaps feels that i was jealous of him being up there with my son. And as mentioned, I do often go up there with him, the difference is I ask my son, do you wan me to rub your back for awhile? Do you want me to lay with you for 5 minutes? Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no.

If we can ever have a calm conversation about this, I will try and help him to understand the difference between someone choosing to have you there you making the choice for them. But I am not hopeful. Perhaps our therapist can help.

[Notwendy]

It makes me wonder if your H was abused in some way. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but it could explain why he has these boundary issues with his kids.

I suspect that my BPD mother was - although I have no proof. Nobody ever touched me inappropriately as a kid, but when I entered adolescence, my mother saw me as a confidant about her relationship with my father. It was TMI. That was a violation.

Physical boundaries may not mean much to your H, but to me, I wanted to reinforce my kids' natural boundaries and modesty - because I wanted to teach them that people who love you will respect your boundaries. One is their bodies. Their bodies belong to them. If they don't want me to see them, then I should not.

This may be better received by your H if it is discussed by a professional.

[formflier]

I cringed at the kids stuff too.

My P has wondered about my wife having an abuse (sexual or otherwise) background.  I don't know for sure... .but I do know her childhood wasn't very nice.

pwBPD "need to be needed".  Your hubby is likely less about bad boundaries and more about thinking "they need this"... .or "they appreciate this"

Perhaps you can "need" your hubby to set goals for the kids to be more independent.  Let it be his idea.  Don't "get in front" of his idea.  Give him nudges.  Pick things away from bedroom or baths to get him going on this train of thought. 

Ask him to "demonstrate" his idea vice "tell you what to do".

Goal would be for you guys to let kids go to rooms and undress and dress themselves... .then you "check them" when it is all over.

What are ages of kids again.

The two keys here.  Let it be your hubby's idea... .you can go along "reluctantly".  Then... .randomly praise him for how much effort he is putting into them being independent.

Thoughts?

FF

[Annie99]

So to answer a few questions people have asked, I have twin boys, almost nine years old. I have them both seeing therapists and will get the therapists up to speed on their father's behaviour (it is unusual behaviour, he is usually very uninolved, doesnt want to read them their night time story. not interested in doing things with them etc etc). One of my son's therapist asked him, you always tell me about your mom? what about your dad? His response was "oh he fixes my computer and then changed the subject." Upon pushing, he didnt want to discuss his father.

So big blow up last night. I failed miserably.  My husband wanted to talk about the incident where I asked him to get down from the bed. I told him not until the kids are asleep.  Unbeknownst to me, he was drinking while the kids were falling asleep or I would have cancelled the conversation (four beers).  Immediate attack on me, how messed up I am, how crazy I am, how he was just being a normal father trying to help his son who couldn't fall asleep, How I scared our son, how I am trying to come up with a narrative about him to save up to attack him, on and on. "I tried to explain to him what I saw, boundaries, how he didnt ask our son if he wanted him there, how I saw our son as uncomfortable and unable to speak up for himself"; my husband said "BS" I know what you were really thinking. I asked him "what was it you though I was thinking?" His response "oh, no, Im not feeding you your answers". I touched my heart and said" I am telling you the truth here as I see it". His response "Oh, now you're going to use those manipulative gestures where you touch your heart? I'm not falling for that!"  And then I lost it. Unproductive I know. This is after practicing in my head beforehand how calm I would respond to everything. Totally lost it. Which does make him back down. Which does have him phoning me from work today apologizing. But all I can think now is that I need out, I am trying so hard, but turning into a person I do not want to be.

[Notwendy]

I also found that when I "lost it" it would cause an apologetic reaction from my H, and also BPD mother. The problem was that I felt pretty bad when I did lose it.

But that is an example of boundaries- my losing it did demonstrate that- they had gone too far and they understood that. Yet, I had been sending more subtle signals before that- about boundaries - that were not received.

This made me think about trying a better way to indicate a boundary before I "lost it". I also expected that the boundary would be pushed and tested before it began to work.

We all have a set of "tools" that we use in communication, and we tend to use the tools that work. It takes time and practice to learn a new way. I realized that if I was the one to start doing something different ( and not the other person) - what they would likely do is use what has worked for them in the past. So long as their way of communicating worked- well they would keep doing what they knew worked- until they learned that it isn't working anymore. Then, they may try different things- in a trial and error pattern.

Learning new communication skills/enforcing boundaries- is like a kid learning to walk. They don't always get it right, they fall down sometimes, but eventually they get it.

First- look at your H's style- he projects- and defends himself. Consider the drama triangle. When someone does this- they are in victim mode- and the person trying to hold them accountable is in persecutor mode to them. IMHO, reasoning with someone isn't very effective when on the drama triangle. Also, these types of discussions are best not done when someone is tired, hungry, and especially inebriated. ( alcohol decreases their judgement).

One of my boundaries is to not engage in these discussions. When we first started MC, I decided to not discuss anything that could be emotional outside of the counselors office because these types of conversations would break down. Once a conversation started to turn in that direction, I simply stopped talking. Not the ST, but with a statement about myself " I think I need to take some time to think about this conversation before we discuss this further"  It is a natural tendency to defend ourselves from accusations- but reacting adds fuel to the situation. When accused- I would respond with a similar statement " I hear what you are saying and I need some time to think about that". End of discussion, even when pushed to continue " I need to think about this".

For me, these conversations seemed to stop sooner when I didn't add fuel to them.

[VitaminC]

... .my husband said "BS" I know what you were really thinking. I asked him "what was it you though I was thinking?" His response "oh, no, Im not feeding you your answers". I touched my heart and said" I am telling you the truth here as I see it". His response "Oh, now you're going to use those manipulative gestures where you touch your heart? I'm not falling for that!" 

Just to say, this reminds of umpteen conversations with my own exBPD. I found it confusing, exasperating, and finally infuriating and impossible. I responded with what I thought was logic and reasonableness and was astounded that a highly intelligent person who prided himself on his analytic thinking abilities was so incapable of applying them in these kinds of situations.

Had I known about the communication tools then that Notwendy speaks about, it might have gone differently. I know I would have found it hard to get enough distance from my own emotions to learn this, because I was so stuck on the idea that I was dealing with an analytical and very bright man and, in my mind, that ought to have precluded this kind of illogical paranoia.

Had I the well-being of children to consider, it would have been, I think, doubly, triply difficult.

I guess I just want to remind you to go easy on yourself, Annie.

[Notwendy]

I was so stuck on the idea that I was dealing with an analytical and very bright man and, in my mind, that ought to have precluded this kind of illogical paranoia

Vitamin C- I was in this place for years. My H presented himself as the logical one, and me, the irrational emotional one. I fit into this, as these discussions would inevitably end with me losing it- crying, breaking down into an emotional mess, while he remained logical and now, had this scene to prove he was right.

I further played into this because, at some level, I feared I was becoming like my mother- as these emotional episodes where I lost it, to me looked similar to her emotional episodes. So, he easily convinced me I was the irrational one, as it was believable to me.

Eventually, when I was able to get a better grip on my own emotional reaction to being accused, and not react, but to listen - and say " I need a moment to think about this" it gave me some space to calm down, and think about what was being said.

Basically, my H could build a sophisticated logical argument to substantiate what was actually his feelings. Once he established for himself that his feeling was true, he built a brilliant, logical argument on top of that.

His arguments were built on a house of cards. Once I saw the illogical in them I was not emotionally reactive to them. I had to learn not to JADE, but it made a difference.

[formflier]

For me, these conversations seemed to stop sooner when I didn't add fuel to them.

Annie99,

Hang in there.  We have all "blown it" and stuck with a conversation longer than we should... .sometimes with disastrous results.  It's a part of being in a relationship with someone with traits of a PD.  It's also part of being human. 

I hope you can focus on Notwendy's analogy about "adding fuel".  Similar analogies really helped me when I was struggling with trying new techniques.

There is a "fire" of some sort burning in your hubby.  That fire is his responsibility.  It is your responsibility to be aware of that fire and attempt not to exacerbate it by "adding" more fuel.

FF

[VitaminC]

Basically, my H could build a sophisticated logical argument to substantiate what was actually his feelings. Once he established for himself that his feeling was true, he built a brilliant, logical argument on top of that.

I had to learn not to JADE, but it made a difference.

Great points. Mine was not so good at the argument building if it had any emotional component and I 'outlogicked' him lots of times. But that still did not get us anywhere useful at all. It usually led us to a dead end, in fact, and then we'd just drop it and stumble on for a while with the bad feeling and lack of real communication festering away in us and between us.

Not JADEing would have been a darn fine start, in my case anyway.

[formflier]

 I have twin boys, almost nine years old. I have them both seeing therapists and will get the therapists up to speed on their father's behaviour (it is unusual behaviour, he is usually very uninolved, doesnt want to read them their night time story. not interested in doing things with them etc etc). One of my son's therapist asked him, you always tell me about your mom? what about your dad? His response was "oh he fixes my computer and then changed the subject." Upon pushing, he didnt want to discuss his father.
 

Is your hubby aware the kids are in T?

Does he approve?  Participate?

This jumped out at me... .the statement about "i will catch her up on his behavior".  (and it may come to that).

I think the healthiest thing that can be done here is for the father to talk directly to the T.  Let him "catch her up".

Also... .focus less on "getting the facts straight" about what he "has done" and focus more on what he "will do" in the future.

For instance... .having him agree to read a bedtime story a couple times a week, put kids in bet... .kiss their heads and leave... .

Focusing on what to do is going to go much better than "don't do this... .don't do that... .etc etc"

FF

[Annie99]

So some interesting developments.

Continuing to work very hard on myself. Read about JADE and took notes.  Read a lot on the Karpman Drama triangle and saw how I play all three roles and how my husband and I switch off on these. When I really and truly get angry and react and lose it, he immediately moves to victim and then rescuer, apologizing, calling me etc. A good few days and then we start again.  I refuse to play and am spending a lot of time rethinking past dramas and what I could say to handle them differently and keep centered.

I am also working on codependency - new therapist isnt much help so may move an and try another one, meanwhile I have a stack of self help books that is getting embarrassingly high. In any case, I am really working on my feelings and needs and trying very hard to step away from control, which I realize I have been doing for a long time (like forever) and it is very difficult for me to not be in control, collect data etc.

In any case, he came in very late from work one night, with no phone call. Not really what you would expect from someone that has had an affair and seen prostitutes. I felt my anxiety rise, the later it got, but acknowledged it and let it go (or at least tried to). I called someone just to chat and was chatting on the phone when he finally came home.  I finished my call and didn't ask him why he was late. Nor did I go silent treatment (another one of my specialties). That night, I did my usual 3 AM wake up (still on the floor in the kids room)  but instead of feeling like I was alone in the universe, I actually felt connected to the universe and loved. I told my husband about this feeling the next day, he had no comment. which was fine, I didnt need one.

That afternoon, from his office, my husband emailed our psychologist asking him for a formal diagnosis, and cc'd me. Our psychologist replied with his usual blah blah blah, difficult to diagnose, if he saw a psychiatrist likely each one would give him a different diagnosis, could go through the DSM with him etc etc (The psychologist has told me in an individual session that my husband has BPD traits, though has never told him this, perhaps he has his reasons, he seems like a smart guy but I'm really thinking the   one hour of couple therapy every two weeks is just not cutting it). I didnt mention the email to my husband, and he didnt say anything to me. We see the psychologist this week so will see what happens.

Next day my husband made an appt with the medical doctor and sent me an email asking me to go to the appointment with him, which I agreed to do. Havent talked about this either - not sure what it is about.

Im thinking possibly, he is sensing that I am really not being affected by him anymore and I am really starting down my own path and he is getting really scared I will leave. I had told him (see previous posts) the things I needed from him to continue working on the relationship. One of them was a diagnosis (his sister has been diagnosed bipolar type 2 and i told him that we need to lay to rest once and for all if he is or isnt), and that he get tested for STDs. So perhaps the dr appt is about the STDs but I dont know and I havent asked.  He also needs his hand checked (in all likelihood he has broken bones in it from when he punched a wall a month or so ago when I told him we should perhaps consider a 3 month trial separation) but doubt its about that.

In any case, interesting developments but working hard to stay focused on me and the kids.

[formflier]

Good job managing your anxiety!   

Few big picture questions to get me and others up to speed.

Is there anywhere else you can sleep other than kids room?

Is your husband doing therapy with psychologist?   How often does he go?  What testing has been done?  MMPI... PAI... .etc.

Is it possible to ease off on sharing feelings with your hubby for a bit (such as the comment you made to him... and he didn't respond). 

Last.  Tell us about last therapist and this one.  What was working and what isn't working?

What does a T "helping" look like?

Hang in there.

FF

[Notwendy]

Great job of taking care of yourself, and boundaries.

Your husband made some choices, and while he may want his marriage to be the same, regardless of those choices, this doesn't mean you need to pretend they didn't happen. You have the right to decide what you want to do, and what you wish in a marriage too.

You have set the terms of what you want in a marriage- that these choices he makes are not compatible with your values.

While he may "blame" you for that, he also has a choice. If your wish for marriage is fidelity, and he wants to be married to you- then he can decide to work on that.

Getting support from a T and working on any of your contribution to the dysfunction is important, but you don't have to accept the blame for his choices- his choices are his responsibility.

[Annie99]

To answer some questions:

Both of my kids see a therapist. When I discovered the emotional affair a year ago, it shook me so much that I was no longer myself, crying jags, fears of abandonment etc etc. Not to mention full out screaming matches with my husband (when we thought the kids were asleep). I realizeI have alwasy been the rock for my kids and this affected them hugely. One of them started having problems at school (teacher contacted me couldn't figure out why all his self-confidence and enthusiasm had disappeared) which eventually led to full on school refusal. He only wanted to stay home with me. Bad as discovering the affair was, I think this was worse, I was out of my head with worry about the kids, vicious circle of course. So boy no.1 started seeing a therapist, and he got better and is doing really well (though to be honest I think it has more with me doing better than the psychologist). Boy no.2 (who started having night terrors after I started falling apart) was referred to a counsellor by a pediatrician he was seeing for testing for ADHD.  His counsellor is very, very good and I have shared with her details of the issues (psych no. 1 wasnt so interested - she wanted to focus on the school issues). We are now done with pscyh no. 1 and I will start bringing both kids to the good one.
That's the kids.

As far as my husband and I - we are seeing a psychologist, the second once since about April. I actually believe he is very good, he is the one that got my husband to reveal the additional details such as prostitutes etc and also has had him recognize how much his screwed up childhood has affected him. He is very anti-psychiatrist and very anti-medication. There has been no testing done (not sure what MMPI, PAI is?). We see him for one hour every two weeks. My husband has seen him once on his own. I have seen him a number of times on my own. Another one of my conditions for my husband was that he see someone by himself, regularly. My husband thinks the one hour of couples counselling every two weeks has been giving him a lot of insight and is all he needs.

Re: the kids room - I could sleep in a downstairs bedroom however the kids sometimes wake up with nightmares and then I wouldnt hear them. My husband is in our bedroom - he doesnt wake up when the kids cry or call out. I have been thinking of asking him to move downstairs but can imagine that will lead to him feeling like I am banishing him to the basement. I did talk to my son's therapist about it - worried that it may be too overprotective sleeping in there, but she said not to worry. I dont go to bed until they are asleep and I have a mattress I keep under their bunkbeds and seem to be sleeping better now.

I can ease off on sharing feelings - in fact we rarely talk about anything other than the house, kids etc.

Therapists - I have seen a few - one freebie through my employer who was useless - listen to me for an hour and then hand me a book to read. Our current one, who we see as a couples counsellor and I have also seen individually. He identified my codependency tendancies which was a huge eye opener for me, but I feel he is a bit conflicted trying to help me as an individual and us as a couple. New guy - only seen him once- cant expet much the first visit I guess but he was pushing for me to leave husband, which Im not ready to do yet, didnt have any real suggestions for my sleep issues (waking up regularly at 3 AM ruminating) and didnt offer anything to help me with the codependency - learning a lot more online. But I did only see him once so will try him a couple more times before moving on.  T "helping" was our marriage counsellor who saw me individually - got me off ativan, sleeping pills (though Im now back on the sleeping pills), helped me identify that I was having catastrophic thoughts over things that weren't catastrophic  and at least identified the codependency so I coudl start to work on that.

[formflier]

Annie99,

Think about the following analogy for a support system.  A stool with three legs.

If any leg is missing... .how is the stool going to hold weight?

Leg 1:  bpdfamily.  You can come here and be yourself.  Share everything.  We get it... we understand.  For instance:  My wife and I use to go at it in the middle of the night.  I have a big voice and could run her out of the room with my voice... .so I could get some sleep.  Very... .very dark time in our r/s.  I wish I hadn't done that.  That being said... .don't beat yourself up for what you don't know.  There are better ways... .  I use that dark period as motivation to "not go back".

Leg 2:  Professional therapy.  I see a PhD type psychologist weekly.  Sometimes more.  My goal is to contribute to family stability AND keep myself stable when paranoia creeps back in our r/s.  Very important that YOU get stable.  YOU are more important that your hubby or your kids.  Think about this... .if you crack and are not functional.  Who looks after kids? 

Leg 3:  Net work of friends/family that perhaps are aware there are issues (or could be better if they don't) that you can build a life around.  A life where dysfunction is not talked about.  Very few people in my church family "know about" issues in my marriage.  It's not that I am hiding them... .but it's NO GOOD for me (or you) to "talk about" our issues 24/7.

Can you take a look at your life from the point of view of this analogy and talk about each of your legs... .what is good... .what is lacking?


Last:  Night terrors.  How often do they wake up?  Do they know you sleep in their room?

I will tell you this.  Boundaries are the number 1 tool I have used to "create space" for me to be me.  Our r/s is much more stable as a result.  Even though my wife claims to not like them... .things are much calmer.

How can you create space for you?

How can you create space for your kids?

Your hubby?



FF