Meeting with lawyer tomorrow

[NotThatGuy]

I have my first meeting with a divorce attorney tomorrow. This is just a "consultation bc it may be on the horizon" appointment; neither of us is planning to leave imminently (at least, I'm not). But my uBPDw has said she wants a divorce and then gone back on it-- and so have I. We have two little kids and a complicated situation. If/when it comes time to divorce, I want it to go as smoothly as possible, esp for the kids. I'd love to be wrong, but we're pretty much day-to-day on whether the relationship can continue.

Any advice for first appointment with the lawyer?

[flourdust]

You'll be asked to fill out a pretty detailed form -- everything from work and medical history to assets & liabilities. It's helpful to have as much of this organized as possible -- at least a big picture. Bring in your questions - written down, if that helps you. You want to very clearly explain your current situation (financial, family, living circumstances) and what your ideal resolution is (who gets what, who lives where, what happens to the kids). Do be sure to mention your wife's medical situation, including if BPD is officially diagnosed or not, and certainly ask about the lawyer's experience in handling high-conflict cases.

[ForeverDad]

This is a frequently asked question.  Why not review the prior topics/threads here on this board and see what responses were given?  Here's an example of just a few threads.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299430.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296905.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296961.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296683.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296238.0

And those are just a few from the past couple months.  Remember, you are NOT alone.  We've been here, done that.  Take advantage of our collective wisdom as to what strategies work best and which strategies have weaknesses.

For your first meeting with an attorney, bring notes of what the issues are and documentation of the problems you've been dealing with.  And take notes, otherwise you'll likely forget some portions of the advice.

Also, it would be best to get multiple consultations, generally inexpensive, before committing to a lawyer and the retainer.  It is not bad manners to ask, "If you had a High Conflict scenario such as mine, which local lawyers would you use?"  Good lawyer understand that they're not going to get hired by every person walking in the door.  Frankly, some lawyers are forms-filers and hand-holders, not all are experienced enough or willing enough to proactively handle a HC divorce.

And remember that your choice of lawyers — even the seeking of a lawyer — and any strategies you decide upon are confidential.  You don't have to share information with someone who would likely try to sabotage you. Not even in late night interrogations, threats, demands, guilting or claimed obligations.

[livednlearned]

I have my first meeting with a divorce attorney tomorrow. This is just a "consultation bc it may be on the horizon" appointment; neither of us is planning to leave imminently (at least, I'm not). But my uBPDw has said she wants a divorce and then gone back on it-- and so have I. We have two little kids and a complicated situation. If/when it comes time to divorce, I want it to go as smoothly as possible, esp for the kids. I'd love to be wrong, but we're pretty much day-to-day on whether the relationship can continue.

Any advice for first appointment with the lawyer?

Does your wife know that you have this appointment? If not, it's wise to keep it confidential. Even though she threatens divorce, her intense fears of abandonment create cognitive distortions and double standards. Knowing that you are thinking about divorce could escalate her behaviors, and drive her to do something impulsive like file for divorce.

Chances are, when she threatens divorce, it is a way to communicate how much distress she is feeling. She wants your internal emotional state to match hers, it's a (very) dysfunctional way for her to get validation of her own feelings.

My advice in meeting with an attorney is to be very clear about your goals. This is something you have to do, and it's hard. And the reason it's hard is because our values tend to be deeply conflicted in BPD marriages. An attorney will not help you with your goals.

Goals can be: 50/50 custody. Or counseling for the kids. Or shared physical custody and sole legal custody.

Then you can ask the attorney how to reach your goals, what strategy might they use to get you there. Most attorneys assume that you are in the roughly 80 percent of relatively low-conflict divorces where people are reasonable. You aren't. You are probably in the 20 percent of high conflict couples that make up most of the cases that go to court.

What is your wife like? Just because she is BPD does not mean she will wreak total destruction. Many of us here dealt with what Bill Eddy calls High Conflict People (HCP), who tend to have a PD, a target of blame, and are persuasive blamers. Not all pwBPD are HCP.

Is she generally cooperative, not dangerous?
Not cooperative, not dangerous?
Not cooperative, dangerous?

If you haven't already, get a copy of Splitting by Bill Eddy. He's a lawyer and a social worker. He also wrote this about taking an assertive approach (it was written by lawyers for lawyers). It will help you figure out if you have picked an effective lawyer. That's probably the most important thing to prevent your case from becoming WWIII.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

[NotThatGuy]

Thanks very much, guys.  I'd had a look at some of the other threads and thought it was worth asking the specific "new lawyer" question, as I didn't see it-- though I certainly didn't read them all.  There is a lot that other people are going through that resonates with me.

My wife doesn't know, and I don't plan to tell her.  She's already panicking thinking that I'm planning to leave her, because I'm trying to separate our finances (she's had total control, and it has not been going well).  And while she's threatened divorce, I know that it's mostly out of desperation.  Things have been rough enough that I don't think it's likely we can last-- I can't live as I have been forever, even if she can.  But I still do have hope.  This is a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" sort of thing.  And if/when we get there, I think our chances of staying out of court will partly depend on how prepared I am, going into it. 

My wife isn't as aggressive as many BPDs.  She tends towards a victim mentality-- begrudging submission and passive-aggressive resistance, more than forceful opposition.  She can't distinguish between my stating a need or desire and my trying to force her to comply with it.  I think she'd be more likely to agree to everything because she "didn't have a choice," and then undermine any plan we come up with, than to become physically violent, or turn her hatred of me into false accusations.  So, there's that. 

Goals-- that's good advice, and it is hard.   Part of what has made me stay so long, as her pattern of attacking, blaming, and controlling was spiraling out of control, is that I can't stand the thought of leaving the kids with her, but I know that it's neither likely nor desirable for her to have limited contact with them.  She's been a stay-at-home-mom, and my job is time consuming, but her inability to respond consistently to the kids is an issue.  Her disconnect between what she says she'll do, and says she's doing, and what she's actually doing, is profound.

The lawyer I'm seeing was recommended by three different people specifically familiar with our situation, so I think there's a good chance she will have the necessary skills.  If not, I've got some other folks on my list.

Thanks very much, everyone, and I'll put some more time into reading the other threads on the board.

[livednlearned]

Goals-- that's good advice, and it is hard.   Part of what has made me stay so long, as her pattern of attacking, blaming, and controlling was spiraling out of control, is that I can't stand the thought of leaving the kids with her, but I know that it's neither likely nor desirable for her to have limited contact with them.  She's been a stay-at-home-mom, and my job is time consuming, but her inability to respond consistently to the kids is an issue.  Her disconnect between what she says she'll do, and says she's doing, and what she's actually doing, is profound.

It's tough to think of our kids alone with the parent. In some ways, tho, the stress for them is chronic. Whereas when we separate, they at least have a reprieve. They can sort out clearly in their mind that time with dad is calm, time with mom is chaotic and confusing, if not abusive. And that short break from the stress can help them heal, and shore up strength.

Your goal might be shared physical and legal custody. If your state carves up legal into decision-making, you might have a goal to go for that, too. Or residential parent for school purposes. Today's courts try to carve things up to avoid a winners/losers scenario, for better or worse. As a guy married to a stay-at-home mom, 50/50 visitation might be the best you can get to begin with, depending on your state and how they do things there. Every state is a little different. In some states, for example, 50/50 is the default.

If your wife's abuses are under the radar, you may want to talk to the lawyer about doing a custody evaluation. This might involve psych evals of both parents (ask for the MMPI-2, which needs to be administered by a forensic psychiatrist trained in that particular evaluation), and home visits, as well as time spent with the kids.

This is only anecdotal, but it does seem like women who accuse their husbands of sexual assault, DV, or child molestation tend to have had something like it occur in their own childhoods. You would probably see signs or know as much by now. Part of BPD is having a very tough time resolving past griefs. They keep playing out the same traumas on people close to them. It is very sad, and can also be very dangerous if there is a custody case because in order to protect themselves from excessive shame, people with BPD will split you into the "black" or bad parent, sweeping you into whatever past grief haunts them.

And that is a living nightmare to go through.

As for the kids, if you can get them into counseling now while you are with your wife, all the better. If they seem to be struggling in some way, see if you can get your wife to agree to therapy for them. Once you get divorced, it gets much harder to get the BPD parent on the same page. Everything you suggest for the well-being of the kids will feel like control and sabotage to them, and they will fight it every step of the way, or stack things in their favor.

Document everything, and that means everything. Keep a journal, or a spreadsheet detailing who does what -- dentist appointments, doctor appointments, taking the kids to school, making their meals, cleaning the home, giving them their baths.

Divorce is stressful for anyone, and for people who already have a hard time with stress, it is excruciating. You are wise to be prepared and think ahead. It can make an enormous difference in the health and well-being of your children.

One thing I learned is that if the court is not sure what's going on in the home, especially as it pertains to the health and well-being of the kids, then you will end up demonstrating the challenges on the court's clock. Meaning, you may have to work the system to get family court to see for themselves that the kids' mom is dysfunctional. Most lawyers think you'll be there to settle custody. For many of us, though, we are repeat customers   It sounds bad, but it's sometimes what has to happen in order to get the final outcome we want. Your wife fortunately sounds less high-conflict, and hopefully she will not escalate with false accusations.

Keep posting. Reading is helpful, asking questions specific to your own situation is priceless. We're here for you.

 

LnL