ending marriage to BPD wife

[broken_husband]

Hello,
First time poster here, my wife of 20 yrs has been gradually showing more/stronger BPD traits over time (i.e. abandonment, controlling/manipulating, isolation/emotional blackmail, projecting, splitting, arguing, gaslighting, and charming). We stopped going out for dinner and vacationing because of the resulting public arguments. She's 52 and menopausal for 2 yrs, I'm 56 and we have no children. About 3 yrs ago I suddenly developed severe depression, and through therapy I identified with being codependent... .we do a highly toxic "dance".

Back in February I had a heart attack, for which I had no pre-existing risk factors, except stress, which I attribute to the marriage. I spent the past 8 months evaluating things, and now I believe a divorce is my best chance for saving the rest of my life. She refuses to accept responsibility for any relationship problems, it's all my fault and "I just need to change back to being the way I was". We tried marriage counseling, first and only session, she declared I was lying about everything and that the therapist wouldn't let her talk, so therefore he's incompetent. Her belief is that I'm having a mid-life crisis and that this will all pass in time, so just wait it out.

I retained an attorney 6 weeks ago, and she's still in denial trying to charm me. I frequently recall memories of the "good times" that make me wish we could somehow stay together. I've read alot of BPD, NPD, and Codependency literature and know this is a significant hurdle I need to clear in order to move forward, but right now I could use some suggestions on how to accept this. Any methods you personally have tried and worked would be appreciated.
Thank you!

[ArleighBurke]

Welcome to the group. I hope you can find answers here.

Living with a BPD is draining - I can completely understand your stress. I have been married 16yrs, was codependent, and I think I also had a bout of depression a few years back just before I learnt about BPD.

You can divorce her - that would be an appropriate action. But I think you need to wait before you make that decision. You say you are codependent. So if you divorce, then get into another relationship, are you just going to be codependent in that relationship as well? There's a good chance you will subconsciously attract the same kind of person... .

I would guess most people on this board who choose to stay would have taken a few years to develop strong skills - to lose their codependency, to be able to be emotionally strong. You stayed with her for 20yrs - there must be some good. Is it worthwhile staying whilst learning new skills? In 6-18months you can decide whether to stay or leave. And if you leave, you will leave as a stronger man - hopefully with more empathy, stronger boundaries and more emotional strength which you will take into your next relationship. Is that worth a few months?

There is a good chance that she and your dynamic won't change. There is a good chance that if you change, that will shake her trust in the marriage and put her on edge. But there is also a good chance that you can find a middle ground: she will still be "her" but you will not be affected by it.

Thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

My wife of 20 yrs has been gradually showing more/stronger BPD traits over time (i.e. abandonment, controlling/manipulating, isolation/emotional blackmail, projecting, splitting, arguing, gaslighting, and charming). We stopped going out for dinner and vacationing because of the resulting public arguments. She's 52 and menopausal for 2 yrs, I'm 56 and we have no children.

My Ex too had PD behaviors develop slowing over the years, with triggers and perceived traumas ramping them up from time to time.  It worsened over time until it got to the point that I couldn't reason with her, not even some of the time.  It was to the point I almost stammered talking with her, weighing each word to be as less triggering as possible.  It was to the point I looked down or away when speaking with women.  It was to the point that friends and my family had been driven away.  Isolation is an acting out PD tactic to divide and conquer, how dare we we have support.

Good that you've been in counseling.  If she wanted to salvage the marriage and relationship then she needs to seek counseling and apply it diligently too.  But many pwBPD can't or won't overcome the Denial, the Blaming and Blame Shifting.  From my perspective, looking back and looking around, my general view is that such unhealthy and dysfunctional marriages will fail unless the behaviors normalize, and almost always it takes long term therapy.

Don't blame the years of discord on recent menopause.  She's had two decades to work on herself with your support and evidently she has worsened, not improved.  Don't count on a change for the better now.

[livednlearned]

Glad you survived your heart attack! Wow. That had to be scary. I can understand why you might take stock and reassess everything after an event like that. How are you doing now?

I frequently recall memories of the "good times" that make me wish we could somehow stay together.

There are people with BPD who do get better, but only if they want to. Same is true for us    In BPD relationships, we often provide some buffer to the full effect of their disorder, especially if there are codependent tendencies. It can sometimes take ending the relationship to end the toxic dance.

However, there are examples where people change, both the nonBPD partner and the BPD person. It's not easy. You see the effect that changing your own feelings-thoughts-actions has on her (she changed her behavior, at least temporarily). In some BPD relationships, when we are the ones who change, they respond. The key is whether you feel strong enough to do that kind of work -- it's pretty deep emotional and psychological work.

Are you thinking your wife might seek treatment if divorce is on the horizon?

Would you consider doing a therapeutic separation? This is usually done when both are committed to repairing the marriage. It isn't something to do when you have one foot out the door.

There is no right or wrong answer, it really comes down to what you feel up to, and what you think your wife is capable of doing in response to your newfound strength. Get better, get worse, hold things together for a while, lose it completely... .

[broken_husband]

My personal Thanks to you all for the replies, I really do appreciate your support and guidance. This is my 2nd failed marriage, the first was to an NPD and lasted 7 yrs, ending when she started cheating. Having been in therapy for 4 yrs now, I have a good understanding of my codependent tendencies. As a result of my efforts to address it, I think my my current wife feels like she lost control over me. Reaching a decision to divorce took a long time, I've been considering it for 2 years, she told me she's been thinking about it for over a year. I had encouraged her to get therapy for almost a decade now, she became depressed following a series of family deaths (grandparents, parents, aunt, uncle) occurring all within a few yrs. My deal breaker is that she refuses to accept responsibility for her side of the relationship, blaming me for everything wrong. She does have some very endearing qualities, but come out so infrequently now that it's just not enough to stay together for me. Any suggestions for getting a BP in denial into therapy?

[broken_husband]

Hi,
I could use some honest feedback on this, I'm in need of a reality check.

Last night, my BPD wife and I were talking about our failing relationship, and she says "When I told you that I wanted a divorce last month, I was just saying that out of anger to hurt you, I didn't mean it, and I don't want it." Really? It took her 7 weeks to tell me this, ignoring the facts that in the meantime my lawyer has sent her several letters and she's already met with 2 different lawyers herself... .but she's just now realizing she didn't actually mean it? We sleep in separate bedrooms, and this morning she comes in and kisses me, and then at 9am she emails me a love note saying she just wants me to be happy, and that we can be together. This has got to be the biggest charm yet.

I'm in the process of moving out, and it seems to me like she's living in some other dimension. How am I supposed to reconcile and respond to this kind of behavior? Any suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks!       

[livednlearned]

I'm in the process of moving out, and it seems to me like she's living in some other dimension. How am I supposed to reconcile and respond to this kind of behavior? Any suggestions are welcomed.    

Sometimes, we (non-BPD spouse) end up in roles that are part of our BPD spouse's complicated, hidden (even from themselves) revenge fantasy. No matter what you do, she anticipates you will leave, and treats you badly because she doesn't trust you or anyone else who claims to love her.

Someone rejected her/abandoned her, most likely, and the unresolved hurt gets played out against you and anyone else who represents emotional intimacy. So when you pull away like you are now, you come to symbolize a merger fantasy, and trigger what can feel like desperate attempts to win you back (if she is successful this will temporarily make her feel worthy). If it feels like she is someone completely different right now, it is quite possible she is living out this other role, the merge side of the revenge fantasy.

One thing that has helped me in my own journey out of codependency is recognizing that it can be an act of compassion to let people face the full experience of their pain and suffering. Sometimes, that is how they learn how strong they are. How their own self-worth is something only they can give themselves. In codependency, we often feel uncomfortable with negative feelings, and try desperately (and in vain) to prevent others from feeling negative feelings too.

Once I walked through the darkest part of the darkness, and cried myself inside out, I felt relief. And saw how I had been afraid of something that was pretty much just me.

Funny thing is that I was totally ineffective at helping my  husband in our marriage. It wasn't until after I left that I think he had even a remote chance at getting better.

What do you feel right now? What is making this hard for you?

[broken_husband]

Wow, you really hit the nail on the head. I'm filled with guilt, I have always taken responsibility for making her happy, but now it's time to do that for me. I feel like I am crushing her life and that she will forever blame me for her pain. I have been the one who tries to get the right direction for fixing the problems, and I get nothing but resistance and abuse in return. I struggle with being the deliverer of the tough love she desperately needs to maybe motivate her into getting therapy and deal with her issues.

[ArleighBurke]

Be aware that after you leave, she will probably always paint you as the bad guy. Even if this shocks her into getting therapy and getting better - she will probably never thank you or acknowledge your part.

 

[broken_husband]

Hi,
I'm in the spin cycle again. Last night I asked her what her plan is for moving forward. She said she loves me and will forever, and right now we just need to get into counseling. I reminded her of how she's repeatedly said she wanted a divorce, to which she acknowledged that was wrong of her to say when she really didn't mean it (I can't tell if this is genuine or bs). I said I understood that she may be having a change of heart, but it's hard for me to immediately accept such a dramatic turnaround. I said that if counseling would help, I'm agreeable to doing it in parallel with the divorce process (I don't want her using it as an ongoing delay tactic). She argued we can't be doing both at the same time, to which I reminded her that it was her that refused to continue counseling after the last session, and that her actions mean more than words. I said if she wants it, then she needs to take responsibility for finding a counselor she can stick with, and making the arrangements. I said that based on what she's been saying for 2 months about wanting a divorce and that I need to leave, my plan is to move out, and that's what she needs to assume. She replied, "then I'm going to hire the lawyer". I guess I'll see what happens next.       

[livednlearned]

she's repeatedly said she wanted a divorce, to which she acknowledged that was wrong of her to say when she really didn't mean it (I can't tell if this is genuine or bs).

It's a bit of both. She is afraid, she will say what she needs in order to protect herself, and she will believe it at the same time. We all do this to some extent. It is more severe for someone who cannot regulate emotions very well. She probably did not want a divorce, and was also THAT hurt in the moment, so she needed to hurt you to the same degree she hurts. She doesn't have very good coping skills, it's the only way she knows to stabilize herself. You are (sadly) the collateral damage in this.

her actions mean more than words.

The same is true for you (any of us, really). Right now, she is in limbo, not sure whether you mean what you say. And she is right, going to counseling while talking to a divorce lawyer is confusing if not frightening. Would you feel any different if the shoe were on the other foot? I'm not saying it's wrong, only that it sounds like a lot of hurt on both sides and words that might not mean anything for either side.

She replied, "then I'm going to hire the lawyer". I guess I'll see what happens next.

Once she senses you are serious about divorce, she is likely to up the ante. It's best to not discuss your plans anymore with her at this point, imo.

People with BPD struggle fundamentally with trust. Once things switch over from saving the marriage to filing for divorce, you are likely to be split completely black like ArleighBurke mentioned.

She has to protect herself as "good," and in BPD terms, that is often done by projecting "badness" on to others. It is full-blown self preservation.

[broken_husband]

It was to the point I almost stammered talking with her, weighing each word to be as less triggering as possible.  It was to the point I looked down or away when speaking with women.  It was to the point that friends and my family had been driven away.  Isolation is an acting out PD tactic to divide and conquer, how dare we we have support.

ForeverDad,
If it's any consolation, it's the same way with my wife. Who knows, maybe it's some subconscious childhood fear of being rejected by girls. It's mental gymnastics to carefully consider how every word might be perceived before you say something that could possibly trigger her emotionally abusive response. Talk about exhausting and anxiety provoking.

I used to stuff down all negative feelings, leading to resentment towards her, and ultimately my own depression. Thankfully, good therapy works. I'm much less afflicted now, and although it's still hard for me, I just say what I feel. It's precisely this changing away from my previously codependent behavior that "rocks the boat" for my wife. She interprets my expression of these feelings as hate towards her, and started accusing me of taking opposite positions just to piss her off! She's lost her thought control over me, so now I'm just a bad person.

[broken_husband]

The same is true for you (any of us, really). Right now, she is in limbo, not sure whether you mean what you say. And she is right, going to counseling while talking to a divorce lawyer is confusing if not frightening. Would you feel any different if the shoe were on the other foot? I'm not saying it's wrong, only that it sounds like a lot of hurt on both sides and words that might not mean anything for either side.

Livednlearned,
Thank you for pointing that out. I should try to empathize more with her fears being masked as anger. I'm skeptical because she bailed on a marriage counselor she chose back in August. After 2 sessions alone she liked him, then I was invited to the 3rd session where the therapist asked for my views. She didn't like that he allowed me to talk without her having a chance to refute what I said, that seemed unfair to her. Afterwards, she split the therapist to bad and said she would never do counseling again. I want to ensure that any future therapist needs to be respected and given a chance.    

Once she senses you are serious about divorce, she is likely to up the ante. It's best to not discuss your plans anymore with her at this point, imo.

Another good point, it's a fine line I walk to not alienate her, versus trying to be honest and forthcoming, which my therapist encourages me to do.    

[livednlearned]

Do you feel that you have one foot out the door? Two feet? A foot and four toes?

[ForeverDad]

Regarding divorce... .

Fortunately there are no children to complicate the process.  Custody and parenting issues are huge complications in a divorce where fathers (and sometimes mothers too) face uphill struggles.

If you leave it to her to file first for divorce, there is high risk she could include extreme allegations against you.  (As noted by LnL, she will likely feel impelled to paint you as a Bad Guy in an assortment of ways.)  If she files first, it might be harder to overcome any allegations she might make.  However, if you filed first, then you would at least get the process off to an accurate start, perhaps even a neutral start.  Then if she made serious counter complaints you could thereafter cast it more convincingly as "sour grapes" or posturing.

Your long marriage of 20 years could be used against you to maneuver you into supporting her for many years if she makes less than you and especially if she doesn't work.  While lifetime alimony is not as common as in past years - post-divorce support is increasingly being viewed as 'transitional' support to successfully exit the relationship - you could face alimony up to half the length of the marriage.  My marriage was 15 years, 18 years by the end of the divorce process, and I paid alimony based on 2 months for every year, which I now see as the bottom end of the scale.

If your spouse doesn't work or doesn't work much, then one of your goals is for her to begin working  If she is unskilled then you may need to provide support during job training or perhaps even a couple years of college for her to have no excuse not to begin a career.  In other words, you want a divorce to separate your life from her life.  You're not mean, you want her to stand on her own two feet and will provide some limited help for that, but the rest is up to her.

Beware not to say in the divorce process that she is "mentally ill".  As hard as it is to get a diagnosis for a Personality Disorder, you don't want her seeking one where it could be used against you as basis that you must keep supporting a 'ill' ex-spouse.  So best to limit any statements you make to non-diagnostic descriptions, her being combative or ranting & raging or argumentative or uncooperative or whatever.

[broken_husband]

I need to get out. This marriage is bad for my mental and physical health, it's been a long struggle given my codependence.

There are several serious issues. No affairs that I'm aware of, but there is a deep mistrust over what I believe was a fabricated gaslighting event she perpetrated 4 yrs ago. While eating dinner at our kitchen table, she "discovered" there was a tack in her glass, and accused me  of somehow putting it there without her noticing. I did not. There were only 2 of us, so it was either me (her belief), her (my belief), the cat (highly unlikely), or a ghost (neither of us believe in them). To this day, she still says "just admit that you did it, tell me why, and I'll forgive you". I repeatedly insist that I did not do it, and will not lie by saying that I did. This is a major issue for both of us.

My major issue with her occurred earlier this year when I had a heart attack. My first day in the hospital they attempted a stent and couldn't do it. Cardiologist indicated I need a bypass and it was scheduled for the next day. That morning before the surgery, my wife shows up late, flustered and very upset when she saw my best friend was there visiting me. The nurse came in and explained the procedure, how I would be in ICU a couple days, then home for 4-5 months of recovery. For no reason, my wife got angry at me and stormed out of the room! My friend went after her to see what was wrong, he came back after 10 mins and said she was mad because she didn't want to have to take care of an invalid! I was devastated. My WIFE couldn't be there for me under the most difficult time in my life, so what's the point of her being with me ever? She finally came back a couple hours later. And as it turned out, during that time the Surgeon reviewed my angiogram and determined a bypass wasn't necessary thanks to the development of collateral arteries. I'm living today with a fully blocked coronary artery. There have been alot of other distressing events, way too many to recall.

For several years she would toss out "divorce" during arguments, but I made the serious declaration of it for the first time this past July following yet another disappointing event. We were both in resounding agreement that it was time to end things in September, I hired an attorney a couple weeks later, and although she has met with 2, she still hasn't retained one.

So, I've rented a condo starting next week and I want to leave. She's pulling the "poor me, how will I ever survive without you?" act, and my codependency is driving my anxiety through the roof!     

[livednlearned]

Again, I'm glad you here  and doing well after surgery. It must make you feel that you have a new lease on life, as they say.

I've rented a condo starting next week and I want to leave. She's pulling the "poor me, how will I ever survive without you?" act, and my codependency is driving my anxiety through the roof!     

Moving out will likely help with the codependency. I did find it reappeared in full force during mediation when, like many of us, I nearly self-sabotaged myself in order to manage the guilt I felt. 

A hard lesson to learn (for codependents in particular) is that pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. In mindfulness, they teach that pain x resistance = suffering, and codependents tend to be masterful at resisting pain and helping others resist it too, only to find that, contrary to what we expect, suffering increases.

It can be an act of compassion to let someone feel their pain. Experiencing it without resistance is often the way to resolve it once and for all.

LnL



 

[ForeverDad]

You are so correct not to appease by admitting to lies.  First and foremost, you keep to your boundary of sticking to the truth.  (Of course, silence or changing the topic are other valid options.)  Second, it prevents you from having to do damage control should she be sneaky enough to record it or you to be so honest to admit what you lied to her.

My Ex too demanded that I accede to her endlessly repeated late night demands to agree with her slanted & edited version of history.  She figured that she would outlast me, her demands versus my principles, that I would eventually give in.  I recall one late night hounding, the typical recurring "we're going to fix this now!".  It must have been 1 or 2 am, I needed sleep since I had to leave for work in a few hours.

Many here have mentioned being accused of infidelity.  I was too.  It must be one of the hallmarks of our disordered ones' thinking.  Later I found out that it was projection or transference of her own issues or what she was was contemplating.

Very late one night I wanted so desperately to go to sleep (exhausted and had to work the next morning) but she kept demanding I confess.  I very nearly made up something - until I realized then she would want to know her name, what she looked like, where she lived, what car she drove, whether it was better, etc.   But a confession of any sort wouldn't have made her happy either and, besides, I knew I wasn't a good liar and would stumble over something, so I didn't.  But, wow, it sure came close, that's how aggressively intense she was and how beaten down I was.

While to this day I don't know whether she had a physical affair before our separation, others have told me she behaved as though she surely had at least an emotional affair.

[broken_husband]

My Ex too demanded that I accede to her endlessly repeated late night demands to agree with her slanted & edited version of history.  She figured that she would outlast me, her demands versus my principles, that I would eventually give in.  I recall one late night hounding, the typical recurring "we're going to fix this now!".  It must have been 1 or 2 am, I needed sleep since I had to leave for work in a few hours.

ForeverDad,
You and I have alot of common experiences, brother!
My thanks to you and Livednlearned for the legal tips. I met with my attorney and he explained the formula used here in NY for spousal support, something like 33% of my salary for 7-10 yrs. Wife had originally agreed to do collaborative, but that's now up in the air. The choice for getting divorced is like running into a mugger in a dark alley, "hey buddy, give me your money or your life!"

[SamwizeGamgee]

Just a comment from the sidelines - thank goodness people share stories here.  It is very strengthening to me to hear similar experience to what I go through, or think I go through.  I used to blame and question myself for everything, and for years on end.  Now I have learned to not accept what my wife says, or at least run it through the truth filter about five times before conceding to her version of the past. Very empowering to finally own my own thoughts and trust my own gut.
Thanks!

[broken_husband]

Just a comment from the sidelines - thank goodness people share stories here.  It is very strengthening to me to hear similar experience to what I go through, or think I go through.  I used to blame and question myself for everything, and for years on end.  Now I have learned to not accept what my wife says, or at least run it through the truth filter about five times before conceding to her version of the past. Very empowering to finally own my own thoughts and trust my own gut.
Thanks!

SamwizeGamgee,
I agree, the emotional abuse documented on this forum is both shocking and heartening at the same time. I sincerely empathize with what others' have been through, and appreciate getting to share my own experiences. For so long, I believed it was just me having to deal with being tortured by a BPD's crap, and that it was all my fault, but not any more! I hope for more mainstream media discussion of mental health issues to help reduce the stigma of those suffering in an abusive relationship. And I think it could help those with PD's to identify issues in themselves and seek help.

As for my situation, yesterday I packed up my clothes and moved into my new rental. All I have is a bed, but as they say you just need a place to sleep, shower, and sh... well, you know. All day I ruminated, had I just made the biggest mistake of my life? Or did I just correct the biggest mistake? Who knows. I truly loved the person she was early on, but over time a subtle, insidious emotional abuser took over who I now resent. When angry, she calls me a sick psychopath (I'm on to her projecting now) to which I said, no dear, my therapist assured me that I'm not. She said her new therapist suggested that separating may help reduce volatility. She professed that she still loves me, and will forever, and really wants to work on our relationship. I suggested she work on herself first. As I'm packing the car to leave, all she could talk about were chores she needed me to do, and that I can't blow "our" savings (it's half hers, dammit!) to furnish my new place. But never mind she stopped working 16 yrs ago, and just 3 days ago she charged almost $2000 against "our" savings to buy herself a new treadmill? I replied "it's too bad you didn't take time and do those things with me all along to help me out and learn from it, because now you need to be responsible for yourself, see ya."

I bought a coffee maker, a toaster oven, some groceries, and watched a college football game on my phone last evening. This morning I feel more at peace, not completely, but more than I have in awhile. I'll be driving an hour each way this afternoon to go back and get more of my things. I don't know who I'll be greeted by this time, Ms. Jekyll or Ms. Hyde, wish me luck.

[ForeverDad]

Can you limit what she spends?  For example, if she's not a joint account holder on the credit card, then she is only a card holder, you could limit the damages she does to the finances.  (If she is joint account holder, then you ought to consider closing the account and opening another but be aware that some banks may try to avoid closing an account unless it's paid off in full.)

Same for bank accounts and other accounts, anything joint.  If you have money in a joint account she could raid it and draw it down to zero whenever she wishes.  Would you have reserves to pay the bills - her bills - or furnish your apartment?  Technically, you have a right to half the joint funds but what if you guard half and she squanders or squirrels away her half?  Then she'll want to live off your safeguarded half.

Ponder whether it's safer to keep the majority of marital money safeguarded and give her a reasonable allowance to pay her own bills until the divorce resolves those issues.  You're not an ogre to ensure money is handled well.  Court won't be inclined to step in for either of you, figuring it will get worked out later during the financial division stage.  Maybe, just maybe court may order she get support during the divorce but you can counter by asking that she seek a job to support herself in the future.  Giving her half now or access to half now may not mean much to court nor to later negotiations.

If any vehicles or homes are jointly owned then that too will have to be carefully handled as you unwind the marriage.  She will see them as Leverage against you.

She will fight for as much support as she can get for as long as she can get it.  I'll repeat, your stance in court should be that she seek a job to support herself in the future.  Yes, it was a long marriage and likely you'll have to provide some long term support.  Listen to your lawyer.  Being over fair or overly nice doesn't matter to courts.  It's a judicial system, not a justice or niceness system.  My point is that you shouldn't sabotage yourself.  Women usually get great default treatment by the courts, so understand well that there's likely no reason to 'protect' her.  You won't be seen as an ogre to the court or other professionals.