I dont think its borderline anymore

[foodlover]

Ive been doing a lot of research lately. I discovered COVERT narcissism. I compared covert narcissism to borderline and Im realizing things may be worse than I previously thought. The biggest thing that made me realize this is her ability to think that her Morals and values are somehow better than the entire country. She will say that things are just wrong no matter how many people say her opinion is just nuts. I think this because I have challenged her need to control me like a child. She sets rules and requirements for all kinds of things and goes way beyond invading my privacy and no matter how many papers, articles and videos I show her saying that her behavior is toxic and unhealthy she just says all those people are crazy and wrong. She thinks her actions are the sign of a healthy and honest relationship. Ironically she is very private with her stuff and gets defensive if I see too much. Trying to explain the hypocrisy leads to rages, gaslighting or blaming me back for something completely unrelated.

Another thing that made me realize is her joy from my pain. When she has attacked me or caused pretty severe emotional pain rather than sympathize or feel bad for what she has done like a normal person she actually gets joy. I have seen her breathe a sigh of relief when I have broken down or smile at me or laugh when I am having a panic attack. She has freaked out and played the victim before while blaming me and crying and attacking me over and over again until I reach a point of depression and she stands up high and mighty and calls me a baby and weak and I need to grow up and be a man while she laughs in my face. This is sick pleaser from other peoples pain.

Do you guys agree or would you still consider this borderline? From what I have read Covert narcissist are very shy, soft spoken, play the victim, act insecure but on the inside secretly think they are better, stronger and wiser than anyone else on the planet.

[formflier]

Why does the label matter? 

Has the behavior changed? 


How would things be different if you knew for 100% sure that it was "Borderline" or "fill in the blank"?


Listen... .I used to be totally focused on getting the diagnosis correct.  I'm not suggesting that it is a .complete waste of energy.

FYI:  I suspect my wife is more PPD (paranoid) than BPD.  There is no official diagnosis, and unlikely to ever be one.

I am suggesting there may be better places to "spend" your limited energy.

I'll wait on the answers to my questions before proceeding any further

FF

[foodlover]

Before you can fix the problem you need to know what your trying to fix. Borderline seems to be geared more torwards insecure people that act out of fear. In a way they LOVE TOO MUCH so it hurts. Weird to say but they act out because they are afraid of getting hurt. With therapy, love and trust they can heal.

With Narcissism it seems much more demonic. As if they are more focused taking advantage of others. Like they have a goal in mind and do not really love but they use you for supply until you are used up and move on to the next person. They have no empathy and cant really be there when you need them unless they pretend just to get something back from you later.

There seems to be a huge difference internally. It may affect how I proceed with the relationship. Ive been trying and trying and trying thinking she is like a scared child. If she is really just here to use me and doesn't really care about me that is a huge difference. Most people agree Narcissist cannot be helped because they truly believe they are above everyone else.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY foodlover:   

Formflier makes some good points.  Not all people with BPD exhibit the same problem behaviors.  If you read the variation between "Queen", "Witch", "Hermit" and "Waif", you will see differences. Even people with a diagnosis of BPD may have had a different diagnosis from a different professional.

The lessons on this website and the communication skills are helpful in everyday life, with nons.  A lot of the skills used to interact with a pwBPD are the same as with a pwNPD.  You can't go too wrong with using skills geared towards specific behaviors.

[formflier]

I do agree with your general concept of knowing something first... .then fix.  Very wise!   

Perhaps we disagree on what you get... .or "need" to know.


You get to know... .100% certain what they are doing.  You get to observe that.

What you NEVER get to know... .is why.

Even if someone tells you, you will never truly know.

Can you give an example of a behavior that you think would be addressed differently if your SO were dx BPD versus NPD.

FF

[HoneyB33]

Before you can fix the problem you need to know what your trying to fix. Borderline seems to be geared more torwards insecure people that act out of fear. In a way they LOVE TOO MUCH so it hurts. Weird to say but they act out because they are afraid of getting hurt. With therapy, love and trust they can heal.

With Narcissism it seems much more demonic. As if they are more focused taking advantage of others. Like they have a goal in mind and do not really love but they use you for supply until you are used up and move on to the next person. They have no empathy and cant really be there when you need them unless they pretend just to get something back from you later.

There seems to be a huge difference internally. It may affect how I proceed with the relationship. Ive been trying and trying and trying thinking she is like a scared child. If she is really just here to use me and doesn't really care about me that is a huge difference. Most people agree Narcissist cannot be helped because they truly believe they are above everyone else.

Hey Foodlover, I totally agree with you that you do need to know what the problem is. I think in a huge way you need to know what you are dealing with! trying to get super specific doesn't matter, but I can understand being in this place and needing to know which is which. I think it's valid to say that all the words and labels do not matter, because ultimately all that matters is how this person treats you. But I will say this too.

If this person is a Narcissist, 100% run for the hills. There is 0 chance that this will be anything but a nightmare that will eventually destroy you. But I will say this too--in the behavior that you are describing--it honestly doesn't matter which she is. She sounds cruel. I would really disagree with your first statement that a BPD just "loves too much". My ex was as cold to the core. She seemed just really fragile, and I think one side of her was that. But when it came to the discard, she was a cut throat. It was literally like she used me up, discarded me like a used candy wrapper, and laughed at what she did to me. I NEVER would have imagined this from her.

And either way, even if she is a borderline, it ONLY matters if she's willing to get treatment and SHE is the one heading that change in her life.

Whatever she is, you're describing someone who sound incredibly sick. Don't get so distracted in exactly what that illness is, that you forget to RUN. I was so distracted with a trying to find a solution to the problem of my relationship, that I didn't take just a step backwards and look point blank at the behavior.

Knowing the difference does matter, but I don't think it matters in regard to how you deal with the relationship. It doesn't matter in regards to leaving when you look at the behavior. It only matters in your healing, to understand what abuse you were put through, so that you can heal and grow from this. Knowing my ex had BPD was a huge help in my recovery. I was in the opposite situation as you, and was looking at covert narcissism but seeing that things weren't adding up quite right. It was a huge help in finding out about Waif Borderlines, and really put fuel into my recovery. It's incredibly validating. But I will say again, that only matters in your recovery. The only thing that matters in the relationship is how she is treating you.

[HopefulDad]

Fixing... .heh, that's a good one.

Doesn't matter what she has.  You're not fixing squat.  Only she can do that and she likely never will.

Just decide if you're willing to accept this and stay, then use the tools taught here to possibly make things better.

[empath]

There is significant overlap in narcissistic tendencies and borderline. Someone asked me recently if I was sure that my husband wasn't narcissistic - the only way that I do know is that he tells me about his internal world (it's a very sad world).

My husband gets defensive about my pointing out hypocrisy and toxic behavior. He is either the victim or the one who knows it all and there is no one who can convince him differently. But at the core, he doesn't know how to form a healthy attachment or to really love and is afraid of being alone and feels lonely much of the time. He hides these things well from most people.

For those of us in relationship with either a narcissistic person or borderline, healthy practices are similar. Primarily focused on our own needs rather than on theirs.

Doesn't matter what she has.  You're not fixing squat.  Only she can do that and she likely never will.

---this bears repeating, for all of us. True wisdom.

[foodlover]

Can you give an example of a behavior that you think would be addressed differently if your SO were dx BPD versus NPD.

Well almost everything that has happened so far could be seen different in a different light.

Example:
I had a meeting with a new client which I told her about a week before. Then the day before. She seemed ok. The day of the meeting she called me and I couldn't answer until I got out. I called her back and said hey honey whats up? I instantly got a disturbing response. She demanded to know why I didn't answer. I responded that I was in a meeting which she said I did not tell her I had a meeting and wanted to know why I didn't answer. Again I said I was in a meeting and told her. She denied it and said I was lying trying to cover it up that I made a mistake. We went back and forth about that. She told me that I don't respect her or care about her. That I need to put her first. If she calls and I am in the meeting a good SO would walk out and answer in case she was in danger or needed something. I asked was she in danger she said that doesn't matter because I didn't know. She said she could not tolerate someone who didn't care. I'm not man enough and I am not good "husband material". When I got home it was just more and more of the same. I tried to reason with her stating that I cant just walk out during a meeting because its disrespectful to the client and if it was an emergency to text me. Keep in mind it was no emergency. She said there is nothing wrong with telling the client that you have to take a call real quick. I am baffled. I gathered recourses showing her that this behavior was unhealthy and toxic. I showed her articles and videos from psychologist showing her this is not right. She dismissed everything stating that a real man would treat a real woman right. The punishment began and I couldn't talk to her. She either stayed silent or bit back when I spoke. If I said anything she would lash out calling me names and putting my morals down. She puts herself in the victim state saying I don't love her enough, I don't appreciate her enough, I only care about money, I don't show her enough attention. She brings up times from the past to make me feel incredibly guilty until I am apologizing for things I have done last month that aren't even related. When I am broken to the point of near depression she will stand over top of me calling me a weak man, an unsuccessful lover. If I point out how hurtful she is being, how wrong it is or its abusive she laughs or smirks at me saying "Well I wouldn't be this way if you could be a good lover". I could point out the fact that she NEVER answers my calls and this whole thing is hypocrisy and she may laugh and walk away or watch TV or something dismissive. She may say I am blaming her back for my mistake. Then when she has successfully made me in the wrong she will accept the situation and act like nothing happened. If I make mention of it again the process starts over.

I use to think this was classic borderline overreacting. But everything I have seen on borderline is this scared, confused, almost psychotic breaks, traumatized and paranoid victim. In a way they act out because the way they see the world is not reality. They think everyone is out to get them so they are paranoid. They feel things TOO much so they get hurt easy and love hard.

Narcissism seem almost opposite. They love themselves more than anything. A covert or shy narcissist pretends to be giving and the victim but secretly believes they are the best and everything they do is perfect. Their moves are not random emotional dysregulation. Its calculated and intentional. When they hurt you its on purpose.

If someone "borderline" hurts me when they don't mean to that's easier to understand than someone who feeds off my pain. Someone who enjoys it and does it on purpose to boost their ego. Its a huge difference. People have said borderline is like trying to fill a well with water using a teaspoon. They want the love and closeness but can never get enough. Their intent is much less evil. However narcissist need you to feel bad so they can feel good. They need to be above you. They need to be on top.

Does this make sense? If it is covert narcissism by the way I think it is then there is no hope. No point in trying to continue. She doesn't want to make things better. She wants to use me and suck me dry and will push me down so she can be boosted up.

If its borderline she may have hope for recovery. She could be helped.

[formflier]

We get it... .trust me... .we do.

Take blender... .insert brain... .run on high.  That's life with a BPD/NPD. 

I don't fault you for wanting to know which it is.  But I don't see how the response would be different in the situation that you provided.

The reason why it wouldn't be different is because the issue was NOT AT ALL ABOUT THEM, but is ALL ABOUT YOUR BOUNDARIES.

You don't alter your boundaries based on who is outside them.  It's all based on who is inside them.  That's you! 

Big picture.  You are at work and there will be times you don't answer.  End of discussion.

The way that is presented does matter.  We can work on that later.

What I can say with 100% certainty is that "going back and forth" about your boundaries is harming your relationship.  You control if that happens. 

All the rest of the detail... .frankly... .doesn't matter. 

Now, it's important that you not make changes until you know what you are doing and where you are going.  CONSISTENCY IS CRITICAL where boundaries are concerned.

Are you ready to start learning more about boundaries? 

What parts of this post make you uncomfortable?  Comfortable?

It's like learning a new language... .hang in there.  It will start to make more sense.

FF

[enlighten me]

I also agree that knowing what you are dealing with helps to fix things. Not necessarily the SO but yourself. If I believed everything that my exgf had called me then I would be a very horrible and twisted person. Realising that she most probably has a PD and that what she said came from somewhere other than fact has helped me imensly. Narrowing down the main culprit to BPD helped me even more. It helped me to understand her reactions to my actions. Ok I'll admit I dont have a full picture but who in these relationships does. Add to that co morbidity of other dissorders andsome things still dont make sense.

[foodlover]

Formflier I completely understand what your saying. The whole reason I am asking this at all is if it is borderline I believe I would continue to try and use the tools and boundaries to make our lives better. If it is covert NPD then its a different story. I don't believe boundaries will truly help. Maybe boundaries will make my life easier with a covert NPD however I don't wish to be with someone who uses me for supply, doesn't really love or appreciate me and most of all gets enjoyment out of my pain. No matter how many boundaries I have they are masters of manipulation and using people. I feel like if she is borderline at least there is love. She may have a TON of trust issues but at least she does in some way love me even if its a constant black/white back and forth. With therapy and boundaries its possible.

I am really trying to figure out how to proceed I guess. If its NPD I feel like its best to just run as fast as I can because its unlikely she will change if she really feels likes she is this god on earth.

[HopefulDad]

The whole reason I am asking this at all is if it is borderline I believe I would continue to try and use the tools and boundaries to make our lives better. If it is covert NPD then its a different story.

<snip>

I am really trying to figure out how to proceed I guess. If its NPD I feel like its best to just run as fast as I can because its unlikely she will change if she really feels likes she is this god on earth.

A few things... .

Whether it's BPD or ASPD (which sounds more like what you're describing rather than NPD) or a combination of several disorders, she is unlikely to change at all.  Sure, you can give the odds of change higher to someone with BPD than ASPD, but don't overquantify those odds... .they still suck.  You're picking nits by this point.

Next, how do you plan on knowing for sure what she has?  By asking a bunch of armchair psychologists on this board?  Are you going to get her professionally diagnosed and if so, how do you plan on getting her to go along?  And even if you do, speaking from experience as someone who had an ex diagnosed by two psychologists, I can tell you that aside from a general PD diagnosis, the details of what kind of PD is something they may disagree.  So you still may not get your answer.

And finally, let's say by some longshot she does get long term help and actually improves... .for the time being.  There are countless stories of sufferers backsliding to square one after putting in a lot of work because they thought they were "cured" when in fact there is no cure, but rather a lifetime of managing the condition via mindfulness and other tools.  Are you going to always going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop, for that backslide to happen, and therefore always looking at her with a suspicious eye?

There are a ton of unknowns.  What is known is you know how she treats you up to now no matter how you label the PD behind it.  If you're looking for a future predictor, you are better off going off of past history rather than wishful thinking.  Using that guideline, expect more of the same behavior in your future... .all of your future.  If you want to stay with her, accept this future.  Then work towards using the tools taught here to make the relationship healthier from your side and your side only.

It's not called "radical acceptance" for nothing.

[empath]

Boundaries do not 'help' the pwBPD get better; they are for those in relationship with the person - same as with a pwNPD. With personality disorders, there is always some aspect of the disorder that will be present; one of the criteria for them is that they are longstanding patterns. Boundaries are typically triggering for those with borderline - because you are 'less attached' and so 'you don't love me.' (it is still highly manipulative) Appreciating you for you is not how borderlines typically see their partner - they like you for what you give them. (or if they can discharge their pain onto you)


For anyone, if we are going into a relationship thinking it will only work if the other person changes, it is doomed from the start. We have to be able to accept the person as they are and willing to work with that, without expecting change for the better.

[formflier]

It's not called "radical acceptance" for nothing.

And radical acceptance is not a yes or no thing.  It's more of an evolving experience as you realize more and more the "truth" behind the situation that you are in.

Sometimes that has led me to understand that some parts are not as bad as I once "feared", but... .more often than not, it leads me to realize that I have been minimizing the impact of living with the disorder on various parts of my life.

Think of peeling back an onion.  You get through one layer... .only to realize there are more layers.

FF

[HoneyB33]

The whole reason I am asking this at all is if it is borderline I believe I would continue to try and use the tools and boundaries to make our lives better.

I don't wish to be with someone who uses me for supply, doesn't really love or appreciate me and most of all gets enjoyment out of my pain.

 I feel like if she is borderline at least there is love... .but at least she does in some way love me... .

With therapy and boundaries its possible.

It's kind of like this: If it's Narcissism, it's 100% chance you need to run. If it's BPD it's 99% that you need to run. So right now you're sitting at a mixture of 99.5% chance that you need to run.

I quoted you above because I wanted to show you what literal SCRAPS you are settling for. And I get it, we all do. Either way, it doesn't matter. Because YOU are the one here trying to do the work, and this person is doing what? Yeah, therapy could help, but if this person has NPD they could actually just use the therapist to further convince you of abuse. You're playing russian roulette with your sanity, well being, and future.

The truth is--either way--she IS using you. She doesn't actually love you, if it's BPD she's on fairy dust and thinks your a magical king, until tomorrow. And if it's NPD, they are drinking you dry. EITHER way, they will eventually ENJOY your pain, discard you, and destroy your entire self worth. Stop thinking that BPD some how means she has a scrap of love for you. A three year old LOVES anyone who gives them a piece of candy. I think we cling to the smallest piece of these people's love, because we need to feel like we are valuable. And we chase THAT down the darkest of holes. But the thing is, you ARE valuable. But the more you try to chase that down in this relationsh!t the more you're going to think that's not true. It's cruel, because you're literally chasing what you need, but the way you're doing so actually just does MORE damage to your self-worth.

This isn't a hurt bunny rabbit that bites you because she's scared of love or whatever. This is a very broken and twisted person, that the longer you stay with, the worse that poison will spread onto you. Look how much you are already willing to sacrifice of yourself for SCRAPS from a person. The lesson we all get out of being with a Borderline is a huge reality check on how much we actually value ourselves--and that is very little. Though it shows us too how much we are trying to fight to see ourselves as valuable. But you will NEVER find this truth in a relationship with a pwBPD or NPD.

The only reason someone would stay with a person with BPD is because he/she is like, ":)amn, I need help. I'M going to therapy. I'm going to work on myself. Will you please walk with me through this?" Then it's like a 70% chance you need to run (haha).

Look, it sound like she may have some BPD, but it really sounds like she does have NPD. I'm no expert, but from my wonderful experience with both types of ppl, and LONG standing history in this abuse. It very much looks like it. Go explore around Psychopathfree.com They are really helpful there.

I hope that my words are not too harsh on you, they aren't meant to be cruel or mean, just words from somebody who has truly been there. In the end, you'll only end up regretting how long you stayed.

[babyducks]

Does this make sense? If it is covert narcissism by the way I think it is then there is no hope. No point in trying to continue. She doesn't want to make things better. She wants to use me and suck me dry and will push me down so she can be boosted up.

If its borderline she may have hope for recovery. She could be helped.

Hi foodlover,

Yes, this makes sense.

Here is what I have learned from my experience.   Cluster B illnesses have a great deal of overlap to them.   Professionals have a difficult time pulling them apart.   

My partner was diagnosed as Bipolar1 and BPD.  Comorbid.   She was receiving the best possible treatment available here for 8 or 9 years.   Medication, Psychiatrist, Psychologist, mental health team.    She made progress.   Significant progress.    As I write this she is currently psychotic.    A danger to herself.   And me.   We are not in contact.

That is my experience.   Yours maybe different.   What is important, and other's have mentioned it, is to have a real understanding of what this relationship will entail.   Regardless of whether it's BPD, NPD or a comingling of multiple illnesses.    Hopeful Dad put it nicely.  The practical realities of living with some one with a mental illness are not for the faint hearted.      There will be a high level of conflict.   The relationship will be inconsistent.   There will be distrust, disrespect and contempt.  From both sides.  There will be incredible highs and heart breaking lows.

There are significant reasons to try to maintain a relationship, everyone has unique and personal reasons to try.  Using the tools and skills found here, including boundaries and validation, will make your lives better.  Not easy but better.   There will be a marked improvement in how things are managed in your personal lives.   For example you will learn to avoid a circular argument like the one about the meeting and the missed phone call.      You aren't going to get anything out of that argument.  It's a no win.

What won't change is how she processes the information of life.   The way she experiences life is not a mistake to be corrected or an accident to be avoided.   Her world view comes from deeply embedded neuro pathways.  Yes. The brain is plastic.   But lets be honest about the level of effort this will take from both of you.   

Over on the improving board is a lesson/workshop about what it takes to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.   The message applies to any mental illness really.   It takes a great deal of strength.   At some point you will be damaged.   It's collateral.   It's important to understand that you will never return to the idealization phase of the relationship where everything was wonderful and you were the two most in love people in the world.   If your situation is anything like mine was, and it sounds like it is, you will need to take steps to protect yourself, emotionally,  physically and financially.  At the end of the day you can only be responsible for 50% of this relationship.   That's all you get.   

Good luck with your choice.

'ducks

[formflier]

But lets be honest about the level of effort this will take from both of you.   

Great post from Babyducks.

I want to expand on this one point in a way that I believe will give foodlover some hope.

The "is this worth it" question is a wise and appropriate question to ask yourself.  I submit to you that "yes, working on the relationship is worth it... .for you"

The maturing process continues throughout life.  Relationships are a significant part of that maturing process.  Regardless of the outcome of the relationship. 

Big picture:  To live with someone with a mental illness is going to take big increases in your ability to empathize with others.  It's going to  take a big increase in skill level with your words.  To be able to evaluate the likely outcome of your words on someone that you don't really understand... .or that processes words in a very different way than you process them.

It's going to take a big increase in your skill level to evaluate things... .hurtful things... .that people say to you and realize "it's not about me... .and move on with your life".

It's going to take a big increase in your skill level at evaluating yourself and what YOU need at the moment to be a healthier person (self care).

I could go on.

So... .let's say you pour your heart and soul into following "rules" and "lessons" and trying really hard to make the relationship work.  The relationship improves dramatically and then... .inexplicably... .the relationship implodes for reasons that you have no control over.

Are YOU going to be better off for having gone through that experience?  Will you likely be more mature?

FF