I love her, but I don't think I can handle it anymore

[Georg]

Hello All,

I would need some advice.
I have had a relation with a girl for about 6 months. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. Of course, I cannot know for sure, but most things point towards this. For a long time, I thought she was just a mean evil b___ (that somehow, I was hopelessly in love with). Now, I know it's not the case, and I'm happy to know that.
So... .the pattern has been break-ups, average once per week. And between the break-ups, it has been intense love. After reading on many sites about many different things, from bipolar to Aspbergers, etc, I finally found most of the criteria matching BPD. I recently talked about my girlfriend about this, and listed the criteria for BPD, and we both agreed that she matches many of them. She does not want to change. She does not want help or visit any doctor to get any diagnosis.

I have a kid from another marriage. I work part time as composer, which requires me to have at least some basic harmony in my daily life. Also, having a child from another marriage requires energy in being a good father.

Now, I feel that my energy is not enough anymore. I cannot both be a good father, feel harmony in my work and handle a relation with someone that matches many of the BPD criteria, for example, breaking up regularly, threatening me using emotional abuse of my love for her, and that does not want to get diagnosed or treated. These weekly break-ups that constantly put me into a defending position, always to be creative to find a solution, and going to down my knees to beg for forgiveness and do whatever rituals needed for improvement (that sometimes involve blood sacrifice and whatever). It drains a lot of energy. And it kind of destroys at least one day, and sometimes, several days ahead.

And of course, it's a continous fear "When will she break up next time? What will be the reason next time? "
For example... .
1. I used the wrong smiley in a chat.
2. I didn't come and pick up her up with the car in the morning so that she could avoid taking the bus.
3. I didn't send a private photo of myself when she wanted it.
4. I didn't answer with enough passionate interest to one of her messages.
5. I didn't write a university report for her (like... a task that she's supposed to do herself during her education)

I can't handle it anymore.

What I've read from various threads on BPD or similar... .if the loved one does not want to get treated or agree to do anyting to handle the symptoms at all, then the best thing is to walk away. Of course, it was a long time ago that I realized that it wouldn't work in the long run. Because already early on, during our first month together, she said she can't change and does not want to change (after an emotional spike when she cursed at me while I was trying to help her solve some problem that she was very upset about).

But as many here probably know, you can, when you're in love, get very addicted. So it's like a drug. Whenever I decide to break (which usually means that I would refuse to again throw myself at my knees begging her to forgive me), I can't really control myself. I usually send a message within hours or within a day or so... ."I still love you". Which is true. And then, there we go again.

I have never tried to keep myself from contacting her for a longer while. Because... .
1. I don't think it would be creative. I don't think she would come back to me. It seems she can, without problems, disconnect herself from any human relation with ease.
2. I couldn't keep myself from contacting her again. Because I love her so much.

Yet... .the truth is... .I can't continue anymore. I know it.
So... .I can't leave her, because I love her so much. But it just doesn't work, from a practical point of view.
My work is screwed up and my relation to my son is weakened. And also, I treat my exwife and my parents and other friends in bad and ignorant ways. Not intentionally, but because I love this new woman so much and the relation is destructive for me, I have to spend all the energy in that relation. There is no energy left for anything else.

So I'd like some advice here. How can I end a relation like this? I feel I don't have the strength for it.
My hopes so far has been... .
1. Maybe I get tired of it... .maybe feelings with fade... .
2. Maybe she will hurt me so much that I can't continue any longer (she once had sex with another guy and told me directly: "I had sex with this other guy. Will you come and take care of me now? I feel a bit tired." Even though I felt immensely hurt and humiliated, I still went to her and took care of her... .)

So... .that hasn't worked yet. It feels like a bad idea to wait for these conditions to happen.

What should I do? Can I get some advice on how to walk away and leave this relation.
And yes... .of course, I still love her.

Best Regards
/Georg

[Georg]

By the way... .
I could give some more examples of what is happening frequently, and some typical quotes:
----------
"If you don't do this for me, it means you don't love me. So, either do this, or it's YOU who break up with me!"
"Ok, you didn't do what I asked you for. It means you killed me. Now, you need to resurrect me. I don't know how we should fix this."
"Whenever we have a fight, and I stop talking to you and block you on FB and emails, you must come home to me as fast as possible, and make me happy again. Otherwise, I won't feel safe with you. I'm too proud to contact you."
"We're done! This was THE Final break up. I don't want to see you again. And don't come to my home!"  (... .which means... .whatever procedure we have for fixing break-ups, this procedure is continously challanged and pushed... .)
"You must put yourself fully at my mercy. That means you trust me. And that makes me feel safe."
"You cannot treat me or judge my according to wordly standards. I'm not in this world. If you judge me as you judge others, it you're doing something very wrong."
"I don't want to talk like a grown-up! I'm a child now!" (... .happens during rational arguments that don't go her way... .)
"I'm all or nothing. I don't accept grey zones. I'm either 1 or 0. Binary."
"I feel disconnected to this world. You are one of my very few connections."
"If you have barriers to me, it means you don't trust me." (barriers = boundaries)
----------

... .and I usually end up apologizing, promising that I will get better, falling to my knees, accepting her request to "fix things" which could be sing a song, cut myself in the finger, dance for her. Whatever. You get the picture. (... .yes, yes... .I know it's insane *

Georg

[formflier]

Now, I feel that my energy is not enough anymore. I cannot both be a good father, feel harmony in my work and handle a relation with someone that matches many of the BPD criteria, for example, breaking up regularly, threatening me using emotional abuse of my love for her, and that does not want to get diagnosed or treated. These weekly break-ups that constantly put me into a defending position, always to be creative to find a solution, and going to down my knees to beg for forgiveness and do whatever rituals needed for improvement (that sometimes involve blood sacrifice and whatever). It drains a lot of energy. And it kind of destroys at least one day, and sometimes, several days ahead.
 

I'm glad you found us and you have identified a central "issue" when dealing with someone with BPD traits.  Energy disappears very quickly.


Who controls your energy?

It is likely that right now you might reference her.  That's ok.  I was in that position as well.  Eventually... .we at bpdfamily hope to educate you and train you to see that YOU are in charge of expending your energy.

Please keep coming back and sharing your story.  What do you need the most help with "right now". 

My guess is that it would be the weekly breakups.  Do you see them coming?  Can you pick one... .perhaps the most recent and give us as many details about what she said and you said.

I'm convinced we can help you and your situation.  Are you ready to start learning?

FF

[Notwendy]

Hi George,

This is difficult and while others can not tell you what to do about it, one idea to consider when wondering how to leave her is this: Who have you left?

You leave yourself, your boundaries, and your values when you allow another person to dictate your reality, who you should be, what you should do.

You leave yourself when you do something that you know is wrong but you do it anyway, such as complete someone's college work for them ( academic dishonesty)

You leave yourself when you allow someone else to tell you what you are feeling "you don't trust me". Only you can know what you are feeling.

Do you have to leave her to return back to yourself? I don't know if there is an immediate answer to this.

You've asked how to leave her. I would propose that another question could be- how to return to yourself. It can take some work, such as personal counseling, to regain your sense of self. When someone has experienced invalidation like this, counseling can provide support and a reality check.

IMHO, the first step to solving your dilemma is to get in touch with who you are, what you value and what you want.

[Georg]

FF... . First I want to say: "Thank you!"
I have seen you post lots of times here. I'm incredibly grateful for the fact that this community exists, and that people like you spend time on answering these desperate posts here. I can't enough express how thankful I am.

So, I'll write something in more detail later this evening. I think you hit the right spot... .on the energy spending. Maybe there is work to do for me here. And things to learn. I'm ready to learn. It's like I've been ready to do anything to save our relation.
So I will write more in this post later this evening.
What I can already say now: sometimes, in the beginning, I was the cause of break-ups, because when she phrased things like "I cannot accept this in a relation", I took that as an immediate break-up request from her part, although I might not have been so. Maybe she just wanted to get affirmed or something, or whatever. Since then, I have learned that I will never suggest break-ups myself now. She often touches on the subject... .like inviting me to do it... .or inviting me to magnify the problem instead of taking it down.

By the way, I see my characters limit on posts are soon at 66500... .then I can't post anymore? What to do to raise that limit?

[Georg]

Notwendy:
It's correct. I have left myself. In my desperate love to her, I have left myself. My core values.

[Lucky Jim]

Maybe she will hurt me so much that I can't continue any longer (she once had sex with another guy and told me directly: "I had sex with this other guy. Will you come and take care of me now? I feel a bit tired." Even though I felt immensely hurt and humiliated, I still went to her and took care of her... .)

Hey Georg, The ball is in your court, I would suggest.  Don't wait for her to be unfaithful again in order to have an excuse to leave.  It's not up to her, my friend.  You make the decisions about your own life and, from what you've shared, you already know what to do.  If you are unsure, suggest you listen to your gut feelings.  We are here to point you in the right direction.  Many of us, including me, have been in your shoes, so you are not alone with your predicament.

LuckyJim

[flourdust]

Notwendy:
It's correct. I have left myself. In my desperate love to her, I have left myself. My core values.

You've painted a pretty clear picture of what you've become in order to keep this relationship limping along. Do you like the person you are now?

[formflier]

Don't worry about the character count.  That is for each individual post.

You are getting great advice and great... .penetrating... .questions to consider.

This is a marathon... .not a sprint.

You are right to avoid breakup talk.

Big picture... .when she asks and odd question.  Try to remain friendly... interested... ."for her". 

Eventually we will get you to a place where you are not at her beck and call, yet you will be friendly and supportive as you let her know you can't come over.

Flourdust and Lucky Jim raise some issues that you need to get a clear answer to... .in your head and heart.

My hope for you is that you will get to a point where YOU make a choice about the relationship... .vice accepting a default... .or acting as if you have no choice. 

Trust me... .if you let "no choice" go on for years... .resentment will build.  Resentment is toxic.

Again... I'm glad you are here.

FF

[Georg]

Well. What takes energy?

1. It creates anxiety and fear that I don't know whether she can easily discard me for whatever reason, or for someone else at any time. Beacuse she claims that she can easily drop human connections. This anxiety/fear consumes a lot of energy.
2. There is an anxiety that she will soon require something new from me that I can't comply to (or am unwilling to comply to because of very rational reasons... .reasons that she will not accept as rational).
3. It takes energy to be the one that is responsible for fixing things when she gets upset/angry/unsatisfied with something. Since our relation feels very asymmetric, I'm the one that carries this burden. Of course, I am a bit interested in knowing... .what would happen if I don't contact her for a week. Would she come back to me? I have never had the strength or courage to try it. But I suspect she wouldn't, because on the contrary, once she decides we should break up, she does everthing in order to block me and cut me off (except the last resort: that I can come over to her).
Question to you guys: is it worth trying this out, after a break-up? I think it would mean a lot to me if she gets back to me and shows that she really is attached to me that much. That I mean a lot to her.

I want to make a short note: about that academic report she wanted me to write for her. I never wrote anything of it. That time, I refused. On the other hand, maybe I would have if she continued to push me enough for it.
So essentially, I have become a person that I despise. I can say to myself several times a day "I hate myself".

What often triggers break-ups is the fact that I can't come and visit her that evening (because I'm at home with my kid). As long as we're together, usually things work fine.
Now, it's not the _reason_ for it, but it often sets her in a darker mood that triggers these break-up causes to turn up. Usually some very minor thing on how I responded to her in chat, or whatever.

Now, if we should go over last break-up, roughly:
1. She wanted me to send a very personal photo that I felt extremely uncomfortable to share with anyone. I hadn't shared it with anyone before.
2. I refused, but I said, I can show it to you on my computer, but I won't send over web.
3. She continued to push, and she eventually said "well, you know what this means... .". (... .which meant, she would break up)'
4. I said "Yes, but I won't do just anything for you."
5. Then comes: "But if you don't send this photo, it means the photo means more than I mean to you. It means you don't love me. It means I'm not important to you."
6. ... .then of course, I replied something in style with "This is not what love is about... .to blackmail someone for requirements like these."
... .and then the talk continued that way... .I don't think there is a need for details. The argumentation just becomes silly .
7. ... and then she said... ."well, you can continue to love that photo of yours. I'm done with you. And don't come home to me. I won't work this time!"
8. ... .Next day, I wrote to her that I still love her.
9. ":)on't say that you love me! It's disgusting, you discarded me for the sake of a photo!"
10. And then... .after some more talk she: "I don't know how you can fix this."
11. Me: "I will fix it!"
12. And then we agreed I go to her place for some symbolic ritual and stuff. Don't worry. Nothing dangerous.
13. And in the end I just HAD to send that photo over the web to her computer. I was not allowed to see if/when she deleted it. I just had to trust her on it.
So finally, I sent it. She won.

But, of course, I don't trust her. How can I trust someone that claims to love me at one moment, and 1 hour later hates me and calls me a cold monster?
How can I trust someone that had sex with another guy (that she presviously assured me she had such interest in at all), and then asks me to come and pick her up?
How can I trust someone that do regular break-ups with me, followed by blocking on FB and email-accounts?
It's kind of hard to trust someone like this. Yet, she got me to do it. Just to fix our relation.

I think... .if I was alone, without kid to take care of, if we lived together. This might have worked. I could spend this energy. But in this situation... .to get these kind of emotional threats and requirements... .this continous anxiety. It's kind of hard. I feel like it's best that I leave this relation. I mean... .what is there to do? Just look at the example above. In the example, I stood my ground for about... .24 hours, I think.
But maybe she knew that I would come and visit her and fix things in either case. I don't know. It's very hard to know whether I can have any boundaries in this relation.

However... .There is some hope. I feel that some previous fights that we've had... .it feels like she's a bit unwillig to push me on the same subjects once again. Because she knows there's a risk of a big fight. And she probably doesn't enjoy those either.

Personally, I think the best thing to do is that I decide to walk out of this relation. Because it feels better to take that decision myself than letting her dictate something that I can't comply to (which I feel is likely to happen), and in the end I will feel that I was the one not good enough... .which of course is true in her eyes. And I can willingly admit that I don't _think_ I'm strong enough to handle this long term.
Unless there are some very good advice here from you guys. But I came here both to learn and to get some advice, although I understand that the final decision is my own.

I just finally want to add: she's a very lovely person. Very charming and wonderful in many ways. That's the person I'm in love with. But the dark side wears me down, and I feel that I am transformed to a person that I don't want to be. As someone said: I left myself. My core values.

Some relevant questions to myself:
1. Do I really HAVE to leave myself and become someone I hate? Maybe I can stand my ground. Be myself. Keep my boundaries. And still be together with this lovely girl. Maybe she will love me even more? I have no idea. Because, I guess I haven't had the courage to try it out yet. Because of fear and anxiety that she will leave me.
2. Is it worth giving up myself, becoming someone I hate, just to be with her? No. Absolutely not. I just lack strength here. So I often end up telling some friend or my ex-wife: "I'm sorry that I behave like this. I hate myself for it, and I hope I will become better soon, and I kind of hope that this relation with end soon."  But of course, I am responsible for my own actions. I don't blame someone else. I'm weak. But I'm still responsible for my behaviour and my own actions.

Thank you for listening, guys. I really appreciate it.
Georg

[Georg]

By the way, I don't want to project my own failure, regarding being a good and respectable person, onto her.
It's my own weakness. My own fault. My own responsibility.
Of course, caused my by very strong love to her.  Still... .my own responsibility.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Georg, Don't beat yourself up, OK?  I'm sure you're doing the best you can under extremely stressful circumstances.  Instead, consider trying to be kind and caring to yourself, which is something often neglected in the throes of a BPD r/s.

LuckyJim

[Georg]

Thank you LuckyJim.

[formflier]

OK... .that seems fairly typical of a pwBPD traits that is "pushing" boundaries to prove to themselves that they are important.

Big picture: 

When requests come in... .

1.  Slow things down.   "That's an important request... .you are important to me.  I'm going to need time to give it the attention you deserve."  Then point to something positive.

"Hey... I saw a new burger place open close to you.  I'm going tonight at 7.  Would love for you to join me."... .or  "it would mean a lot to me if you joined me"

Important that you remain friendly... remain positive... .avoid getting defensive.

She is much... .MUCH better at arguing and switching subjects... .crazymaking.  You won't have a good outcome going down that road

So don't go. 

Don't take a stand on something, unless you know you will "go to the matt" on it.

You seem to realize that sending the picture was bad.  It was.  Now she knows, because of your training her, that pushing works.

OK... .I'm going to hush at this point and see what your reaction is.  Then will try to point you to some resources to help with initial learning.

FF

[Georg]

Yes, I know that sending the picture was bad. I mean... .it feels like every time I have given in for her demands, apologizing and stuff, even if I really don't owe her an apology, that's a step backwards on my position. It reinforces both her feeling and my feeling that I need her more than she needs me and that I'd do anything to keep her. And it's hard to deny the fact that, emotionally, this it is very likely the case.

It would be good for me to hear someone here state a strong encouragement like: "Stand your ground. If she leaves because of that, she would leave you sooner or later anyway."
... .which is probably true... ... ..but I guess it's not as simple as that. Because the good time we have together is really great. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in this situation. Therefore, an apology doesn't feel that costly. However, of course, the further the limits are pushed, the more costly it becomes.
And that's probably where I need to put down my foot on some kind of boundaries.

I have read on pages like this that "delaying" is good.
I have noticed that I can sometimes post something cryptic in the middle of a discussion, like "Let's do an experiment". And then, she curiously asks: "What experiment?" That draws attention from the discussion.
And then I don't have to say anything more. And then it seems like she's waiting for my answer, and I have quite a lot of time. ... .but she's intelligent, so she will eventually come back to that old requirement.
So the question is how to handle such a requirement, when it keeps getting pushed, and sooner or later I have to deal with it.
I mean... .delaying... .sure, that's fine, but it probably won't work always. Maybe I can put out the fire temporarily, but what to do next time?

Georg

[formflier]

  that's a step backwards on my position. 

You seem fairly put together in your posts and I'm not seeing that right now you are having a hard time with emotions.  Am I correct?  Do you seem ok right now?

This food for thought.  Please take no action for a few weeks while you evaluate where you are now.

Take deep breath.

Approaching a relationship from the point of view of "positions" is generally not a good idea.  I do realize, because I have been pushed there, that "taking positions" is an easy place to get "pushed into" in a r/s like you have. 

You are responsible for how you "approach" a relationship.  She is responsible for how she approaches a relationship.

I would really hope you can "approach" the relationship from a place of empathy and friendliness.  Yes, we are going to teach you about boundaries but those should be approached in a rather nonchalant way rather than using a boundary as a red cape to wave at a bull.

As long as your thinking is about "positions" and "winning" or "loosing" you are going to have a tough time in the relationship.

 Maybe I can put out the fire temporarily, but what to do next time?

Georg

It's not your job to put out the fire.  Especially one that you didn't start.  If she screams for you to get the fire extinguisher... .or tosses a fire extinguisher at you... .don't catch it.

It's not your responsibility.

How does this post "strike" you?  Think about it for a while.

FF

[jrharvey]

For me the way she treats you is an easy choice. She is blatantly abusive and manipulative using breakups as a weapon. Honestly this is just my opinion. Once you realize that this is not love and you mean something too you can realize that she isn't worth your time at the moment. Personally if she was to break up with you over that photo at this point Id say to her and yourself that you deserve better than this. You should begin trying to better yourself and let her know if she wants to she should let you know if she wants to join you in that effort. If she wants to break up over that so be it and begin moving on with your life. In my experience with my BPD GF she used breakups as a threat A LOT but she never really wanted to break up. In fact when I started to accept her breakups or even do the break ups she felt so hurt, so abandoned she frantically tried to reverse the decision. She frantically tried to change my mind. To the point now she is in counseling, respecting many of my boundaries (Still working on some) but the point is things drastically changed. When she realizes you have had enough and are willing to walk away because of her actions she has a choice to either change or not change. Either way you get what you want which is something different. The worst deception is possibly when they swear they will change but never do so you go on this long journey of letting them know your done, them promising change, you accepting and them continuing to act up. Its tough because you want to believe they will change. I am so proud of my BPD GF. She has come so far. So incredibly far. We are far from perfect but 8 months ago my relationship sounded just like yours.

[Notwendy]

Will she love you more if you stand up for yourself?

We can not control how someone else feels. Basically, you can not make her love you, love you more by your actions. She has to choose to love you, or act lovingly to you and that is entirely her choice.

One question is about your love for her. Why is it that you choose to love someone who treats you like she does?


For some people, the emotional high of being "in love" is like a drug, and can be addicting. A drug has highs and lows, and withdrawal. A drug also isn't usually good for us, but we can get hooked and crave it.

Your focus seems to be on her- your reality, your happiness,  but you can focus on yourself, and your choices in this relationship.

[Georg]

Once again, thank you, FF and others, for your encouragement and advice.

"If she screams for you to get the fire extinguisher... .or tosses a fire extinguisher at you... .don't catch it."
It's a good figure of speech, but the question is very real... .So I mean, how does it work for real?
If I end up at the ":)o it for me, or it's over!" ... .when the delay won't work anymore?
Do you mean I should just respond with silence then?
No action. Ignorance? Acting like she never even posed that threat?
Sure... .I can try that... .if that's what you mean.

Regarding taking positions in a relationship. I made it clear pretty early on in our relation that I'm not the proud type. I'd rather take a step backwards and apologize even though I don't think I should. It's never been a problem for me. I'm kind of patient. And I have very little prestige.
It's not important to me to have a 100% fair symmetric relation. But it can be a problem when being abused. When it is taking for granted that I will continue to do so, no matter what. Which is where I have ended up now. So when you say that I should approach the relationship with empathy and friendliness... .Yes, I agree it's best.
But there is a trap there as well. I ended up in the rescuer role several times. A couple of times, after we broke up, I felt sorry for her. Empathy. Friendliness. I thought... .I will visit her, just as friend, just to help her, because I care for her. Which ofc lead to a continued relationship. Good, maybe? Or maybe bad. I still can't tell. But since I love her, I guess it was good. But it's hard to be a rescuer if the rescuer is being used and abused and not strong enough to be a rescuer. However, I still think empathy and friendliness is the way to go. Regardless whether I decide to break up, or if she does, or if we continue. Having empathy and friendliness as base will probably heal any break-up wounds much faster. For both of us.

Do you have an example of how I can move from "positional thinking" to empathy and friendliness?
I mean... .is there a typical situation that describes this?
I believe I have improved a bit on this over time, after reading on resource pages like this one.
While, before, I could think like "How can she react like this? it's crazy... .!" And then I told her how crazy it was. Which didn't really improve the situation. Now, instead I try to put myself into her shoes, trying to understand how she feels.
Trying to respond to it with empathy and compassion and acknowledgement. So at least, that's a step towards empathy.

But when I'm tired... .haven't had much sleep, maybe due to break-up threats or whatever, my patience is running low, and then I can have a really hard time to hold back. It's like... .I know that my answer will likely cause a disaster. At the same time I'm thinking: Ok, she's asking for it... .now she's gonna get it! Here we go... .

How do I feel now in general?
First a look-back: this summer was the worst of my life. Could hardly sleep some nights. Lost weight... .lost apetite... couldn't eat properly. I was a very bad father. I had no energy and I saw no meaning in life. I didn't know what was happening. I was just afraid and sad all the time. Cried a lot.
I have told my parents, sister and exwife, roughly, about the situation. I couldn't avoid it, because once this summer, when I visited my parents, I could hardly speak to them, and I couldn't look at them. I just kept looking away and my mother cried when I went home. They didn't know what I was going through. So I called them that same evening and I explained what I knew then... .At that point, I explained that I was in a very unhealthy relation that made me extremely unhappy. But that I couldn't leave the relation. Didn't have the strength.
But they don't know anything about BPD. However, I would like to tell them now. They are very kind and understanding. I love them a lot, and they seem to love me whatever I do, even if I acted very strange and bad in some situations. I feel ashamed for myself when I look back on how I behaved to my family.

Now, it's better. I feel a bit stronger. I can eat properly. Sleep is pretty good, except ofc, it's disturbed after a break-up.
I don't talk or think about her as being evil or weird. Because now I know much more. Instead, when/if I talk about this relation to my close ones, I tell them that she has some sort of handicap, that I'm very much in love with her still, and that I hope to improve myself to become stronger and become a better person soon.
Also, overall, I think I'm a better father now. But I need to prioritize my son higher than I currently do.

But I can't deny, that sometimes, I wish that she could do something unforgiveable to me. Something that makes it easy to take that last decision to leave and stand by it. However, this last week has been very good. (9 days without break-up. Think it's getting close to a record for us, during our 6 months relationship of continous break-ups.) So we can have some really great time together. Therefore, it's this typical roller-coaster feeling, as many describe it here. The good times stick to ones memory, because there sure is lots of good time too.

The biggest problems and break-ups often occur when we are away from each other a couple of days. Then it's like she enters this dark mood much easier. And she sees problems with this and that. Or I fail to respond in chat in the way she wanted me to. So, knowing that she will be away now for 3 days... .there's about a 90% chance for a break-up coming up very soon. For whatever reason she will find.

I had some success on her latest very-close-to-break-up call, some days ago.
This happened an evening when I couldn't visit her.
The problem: I didn't respond with enough enthusiasm and interest into one of her chat messages. So then it was: "You're treating me like just anyone. I can't have this. I will never work in a relation with me. I am interested in your stuff, but you're just treating me with no interest. "  ... .etc, etc...  
I mean... .she had a point. It's just that in a normal relation, it wouldn't result in a break-up threat/conclusion.
Before, I would take this much harder. But here I just responded. "Yes, I know what you feel about that. It was bad answer from my side. I want to adapt and improve here. Please, let's do that thing together, what you mentioned. I want to check it out!"  ... .and she went all silent about it. And nothing more was said about it that evening.
Some months ago, it would have accelerated into a heated discussion that most certainly would have resulted in break-up.
And when I visited her the day after, she was a bit distant from the beginning, but she softened up pretty fast, and then it went back to normal.

Notwendy:
"being "in love" is like a drug, and can be addicting"
... .yes, it's exactly like that. I agree, it's not a good thing.

jrharvey:
"I am so proud of my BPD GF. She has come so far."
I am getting some tears in my eyes now, because I am so happy for you. I am happy that you took your stand, and that it worked out for the better. That she came back to you. I'm really happy that it worked out for you, and you should be very proud of your BPD GF. She is strong and seems worthy of your love, because she fights for it, and you are indeed very worthy of her love. Keep being strong together!
Ofc, I don't know if that will be the case for me when I can't take it anymore. Will she keep to her break-up threat all the way? Very possible. But it can be seen as a win-win, because if she doesn't come back, I will surely feel better after a while. I don't know how long it will take, but it will slowly get better.

[formflier]

If I end up at the ":)o it for me, or it's over!" ... .when the delay won't work anymore?
 

If you let threats work... .they will continue.  If you stop "reacting" to them... .they will slowly die out.

I have years of experience in this one.  Took a while to get rid of them...

Big picture:  Acknowledge the threat, state the boundary, make it about you... .all without blaming or "accusing".

"Hey babe... .I'm not going to be able to continue this conversation while threats are between us."

Walk away.

Read the sentence... .see if you can put together the different big picture items.  I'm less interested in you memorizing a sentence... .than getting the big picture.

FF

[formflier]

  But here I just responded. "Yes, I know what you feel about that. It was bad answer from my side. I want to adapt and improve here. Please, let's do that thing together, what you mentioned. I want to check it out!"  ... . 

That's a pretty good answer.

I like to think of things as "good, better, best".  Let me show you a few things... .that perhaps might move your response more towards best.

Big picture "rules"

Shy away from saying you "know" how someone feels.  You don't.  "My understanding of your feelings is... xyz"  "It appears... ."... .or... ."It seems... "  stay interested... .follow it up with ":)o I have that right?"  With a tentative tone of voice.

Also... .don't "admit" fault.  It is ok to state your feelings right now.  "Babe... .at the moment... I'm not at my best.  It would mean a lot to me if we could delay this conversation until tomorrow afternoon when I should be more rested"

Here is another thought.  "Babe... At the moment, I'm not at my best.  It would mean a lot to me if we could go check out that thing, and put off heavy relationship talk until tomorrow afternoon, when I can give our relationship the attention it deserves."

If she demands to continue picking... .you will have to leave.

But... .as you see... she softened.  The above suggestions might soften her more.

FF

[Georg]

I understand from you that "walking away" from a threat means, in chat (which is typically when our break-ups occur), to simply state that I cannot continue the discussion at the moment, and then simply stop chatting until another day. Or until she changes tone.
And that I must stand my ground if I have stated my boundary on this. Which of course, puts the relation at risk. Then just wait and observe what happens.

Well, that takes some strength and courage. Not sure I have it. I mean... .my record so far is roughly 28 hours.  Before I contacted her again and apologized. Something like that.

Could this also work in combination with affirmations of love, like:
"Ok, I think I understand how you feel about this. You feel there is a distance between us if I don't send that photo. But this is where my personal boundary is right now. Now, in this tense state with break-up threats and all, I feel I cannot continue the discussion, but I still love you the same, Babe."

... .I might add that when I affirm that I love her in these discussions, she often seems to get annoyed with it, telling that it's disgusting that I use words like "love", because I can't possibly love her because I don't agree with her. It's more a gut feeling I have... .that... .since it's true... .since... .sometimes, within her, I wish she appreciates to hear that she's loved, and maybe it's valuable to state this in a tense situation.
But that might be wrong. Or it might work different with differnt pwBPDs.

[RippedTorn]

Georg
I relate to your situation very much. It took me 3 1/2 years of apologizing, breakups, anger tantrums and bullying for me to finally wake up. The problem was as much me as it was her. I had no boundaries and what little I did have, I caved in. I kept telling her and myself that I loved her but what I really loved was an imaginary her who did not have these abusive behaviors. And sex was a big part of it. Your willingness to keep going back just like I did made matters worse because the basis of BPD is fear of abandonment. So the more I abandoned, the more frightened and therefore abusive she became. I got her to go to therapy (which you haven't even accomplished) and the therapist said that she has been this way since childhood, acted this way in all her other relationships and will take a few years of therapy at a minimum for you to see a noticeable change. I am a codependent person always trying to help people. But in this case, it was destroying me because I could not do anything that helped. Your giving in to her demands and threats will never work. I finally left my BPDwife. But what brought me to my senses was reading two books - Walking on Eggshells and Boundaries in Marriage. Do you really want to live your life in turmoil? If she is not willing to get serious help (not because of your demands but because she sees her problems and is tired of living that way), what hope do you have that anything will change. Muster the strength to go NC and look for someone who will treat you with kindness and respect. Just because it is a personality disorder does not mean it is any less maddening, painful and frustrating. Only you can stop the insanity.

[Notwendy]

In psychology, intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcer of behavior.

When some ( but not all) of your efforts to do the "one thing that she says will make her love you" work, and others don't- this can keep you trying.

The ups and downs, the push -pull, with intermittent intensity, are all intense. Keeps you flooded with emotions. Highs and lows. This acts on your brain in a similar fashion as a drug- highs, followed by withdrawal, needing the next fix.

She is who she is- and this is her behavior. On your part- is your response. That is really the only part if this that you can control. The fear of her breaking up with you is influencing how you respond to her. But this is your fear. Working on that might give you the strength to respond differently.

You both have choices- she can stay with you, and /or she can break up with you. You've been dating 6 months- so you know you can exist regardless of what choice she makes. You also have choices. You may like riding the emotional roller coaster. But when the ride stops, you need to be able to walk on the ground as well. Until the next time- if you choose.

Can you gain back some sense of self and stability to be able to not fear her choices?

[Georg]

Notwendy:
"Can you gain back some sense of self and stability to be able to not fear her choices?"
I think it's very hard for me to gain back my sense of self as long as I'm with her. But maybe I will gain strength over time. Not sure... .
Right now, for me, it seems like a safer choice to leave her before she leaves me as it will be easier to handle the loss that way. Because I made the decision. I made the choice to end this kind of drug addiction.
It will feel harder if I choose to stand my ground and stand by my values, and she leave me because of that, because, then there will be a part of me that feels "I was not good enough for her.". That's a heavy feeling that I would like to avoid. I'm sure many people here are stronger than me, so maybe you can raise yourself above that kind of primitive and erronous thinking. But in my current state, I can't. It will absolutely feel much better for me if I'm the one taking initiative for the break-up.

RippedTorn:
"I kept telling her and myself that I loved her but what I really loved was an imaginary her who did not have these abusive behaviors. And sex was a big part of it."
Yes. Copy you on that.
I'm continously questioning what I feel with this "love" towards her. But it's hard to define. Of course, I have started to care for her.
But sometimes, quite often, I feel it's mostly about our freedom in our intimate relation. It's very addictive and I am pretty sure I can not experience that with someone else.
However, I have a feeling it comes in one package: the lack of social layers, including abusive behaviour and the total freedom in our intimacy.
She has also expressed that in words, something like: you can choose to have all of me. Or you will just get that friendly fake social mask that I put on for people I don't know.

"Your giving in to her demands and threats will never work."
I believe you. Seems most people here agree on that.

":)o you really want to live your life in turmoil?"
No.

"If she is not willing to get serious help ... .what hope do you have that anything will change."
Not very much. One hope is gaining knowledge from this forum, learning how to "train her" (without her knowing about it, because she doesn't WANT to change) and train myself to a more healthy communication and conflict handling. That COULD lead to fewer of the big conflict situations. It COULD also lead to that I spend less emotional energy in our conflicts or her way of treating me. And that maybe I could feel less fear and anxiety.
I guess that's my only hopes at this moment.

Well... there's another hope: that I will eventually get tired and fed up with her, making the choice to leave her easier than now.

"Just because it is a personality disorder does not mean it is any less maddening, painful and frustrating."
You are very right about this!
This is very important. Because is raises the problem above the question of responsibility for actions and words and treatment.
Because one of the core questions are:
Even if I KNOW about this handicap (thus showing empathy and friendliness),
even if I KNOW about damage control (to minimize the problems)
no matter what, no matter of responsbility... .
... .it will still be continously maddening, painful and frustrating!
Can I live with that? How long? Is it worth it?
That's kind of the core questions.
Also, I have a child. I know that the relation with her will always conflict with taking care of my own child in the best possible way. Because she's very jealous of the relation I have with my child. She says she can probably not live with that in the long run.

From a practical point of view, it is pretty easy to break up (compared to you other guys with family members or as married couples, etc): we don't live together, we are not married, it's "just" a romantic relation and it's only lasted for 6 months so far, no child together, etc.

So... .what am I waiting for? Well, I guess it's the hopes that I mentioned above.
But my mind feel very split over these decisions. Fight or Flight?

Georg

[Notwendy]

You can break up if you choose and believe it is the best choice for you.

It is the policy of this board ( and my own ) to not tell you whether to break up or not. The reason is that, for you to carry out that choice- you really need to arrive at that decision on your own. It has to be internal to you. Someone else telling you what to do is an external idea.

The board supports you either way. If you decide to break up, the detatching board can help support you through that.

You are correct- your decision is in consideration of the fact that you two are not married, do not have children so it could be a clean break. For couples with children, it is more complicated.

That said, if you return for another episode of passion, be sure you have taken control of your own birth control, even if she says she is on the pill or whatever. Putting that decision completely in her hands can leave you vulnerable to your choice to have children with her or not. Once there are children, one can not really completely break up as there will be shared children between two people.

I think, if you choose to break up, it needs to be firm on your part. The push/pull cycle is a pattern.

This is one reason the decision for yourself needs to be yours. Those of us on the outside are not experiencing the situation like you are.

[formflier]

Please don't break up based in what you "fear" she will do.

Make an affirmative decision based on a choice that is best... .for you.

Do not read a hint in my message about what I think you should do.

My message is about HOW you come to the decision.

FF

[Georg]

Don't worry, I don't read in any hints from anyone in the board here. For me it's perfectly clear that I must take that decision myself based on my very personal situation. However, of course, what you say brings some new light into my situation. Both possibilities and problems.
That light can lead me in some direction, e.g. the direction of break-up. But in the end, it will be my own thoughts and decision that take me there.

I feels good to know that the detachment-board is there for me. I may need it soon.

I can see 3 types of break-ups, sketched up something like this:
--------
1. I take the decision, not based on ongoing conflict, but taken from some neutral state, based on mature thoughts and considerations: ":)ear X, I have considered our relation for quite some time, and I feel that this does not work for me anymore." + more optional talk.

2. During ongoing conflict, I state pretty early on: "I cannot do this. Unless you lighten up a bit, our relation must end here." It means I suggest the break-up and the condition for it. Then I walk all the way... .which could mean that she comes back... .but that could include anxious waiting from my side, because there was a discussed condition that she _could_ change on. If she doesn't change, it means, somehow, that I was not worth that change. That can feel a bit sad.

3. During next conflict, I simply let her break up because I refuse to meet her condition. It means she formulated a condition. I chose to not accept it. Still, that can feel like I couldn't live up to her conditions, which could lead to regret afterwards.

... .well... .I guess all 1, 2, 3 could lead to regret, one way or the other.

Number 1 feels that I'm totally in control. Then I should execute all the way, not accepting recycling, push/pull or whatever it's called.
Number 2... .feels like I'm still in control, but it will probably be some disappointment if she doesn't get in touch afterwards, because there was a possibility for it. For this option to work, I need to be without fear and anxiety, so I don't return to her once again.
Number 3 is probably the toughest break-up, because the break-up decision is hers, and it will feel like I was discarded for some stupid reason and that I wasn't good enough.

It feels like number 1 or 2 feels best for me as I am fully in charge or at least big part of the decision.

Note: I have not decided to do something like this yet... .just venting my thoughts on break-up scenarios.

Georg

[Georg]

FF: "Please don't break up based in what you "fear" she will do."

I believe disagree a bit here. Isn't it reasonable that a wife breaks up with her husband based on an observerved pattern that he beats her up regularly? So she fears it will happen again, based on this observed pattern? Isn't emotional abuse pretty much as bad as being physically abused?
So if I observe a pattern of emotional abuse, doesn't it make sense that I break up because I fear (based on an observed pattern) that it will happen again any time soon. The fear does not occur from nothing. The fear arises from one or several bad experiences of the same kind, and some reasonable anticipation that this will happen again, sooner or later.

Here is one thing. She says that if I'm not around her, I will quickly fade from her world. It means if I'm not around her after 2-3 days, it can be as if I don't exist.
This can easily be seen in the characteristics of her message communication. First day away, she "miss me", and maybe "love me". Second day... .If I'm lucky, I will hear that she miss me. Then, it's as if I gradually fade away and I'm getting extremely downprioritized, and I don't mean much to her anymore.

This summer, during our relation, she started to hang out with another guy when I wasn't around. She asserted me that she was not attracted to him. And that surely nothing would happen. But it did. They had sex. And she told me about it, as if it was no big deal to her. And she afterwards admitted that she was more and more attracted to him (contradicting her own previous assertions). Now... .it IS reasonable, based on her descriptions of detachment, and based on the fact that I can't trust her, that this will happen again.
Because after a couple of days away from me, she can easily get attracted to soemone else, and _I_ seem to mean nothing to her anymore. Because I'm not "part of her world" if I'm not near her.

Is it then wise to advice me not to break up based on what I fear she will do? Of course, I can give you more examples of emotional abuse. It's the observed pattern, and also what she has expressed about herself - easy to detach her feelings of people - that has created this constant fear in me.

Therefore, I think fear is a perfectly legitimate and sensible reason to break up, once these patterns appear. Patterns that I have no control over, for example her detachment after a couple of days away from her. Of course, I was afraid this summer when she hanged out with that guy. There was some basic fear. But I tried to ignore it, and I was pretty successful doing so. Her assertions and the fact that it was totally out of my control calmed me down a bit. Then... .this happened. It means I can never trust her again on things like this.   ... .and of course I ask myself, can I trust her on anything at all?

[Notwendy]

I think this can be reframed.

Fear of- she might hurt me, she might cheat, is a real feeling. We should listen to our feelings.

Clearly, if there is danger of harm and abuse, that is a reason to fear and act on it. Fear is a protective mechanism. There are times where it is appropriate to act on fear.

If we are not in immediate physical danger, then we have some time to think. Acting out of fear, when there isn't a real danger to your safety may not be as empowering as acting out of your own conviction. " this is not good for me and I choose to take care of myself" is a step with conviction. Or "I fear the pain of a break up, so I had better do this before she does this to me " is an action based on fear.

You have made some good points though, about trust.
She loses interest in you when you are not around her and has had sex with another man.

You don't fear what she will do. You know what she has done and that is hurtful to you. Do you fear her, or is it actually that you do not trust her?

Turn this around into what you want in a relationship.

I want fidelity-
I want trust
I want to feel I can be myself- and so on. This is acting out of conviction.

As to your reasons- #1, #2, # 3.

We need to be responsible for our choices. Putting the choice we want into someone else's hands- is not taking responsibility. Waiting for her to argue with her, or do something terrible or break up with you is, in a way, putting the relationship in her hands. What do you gain here? Well, you get to be the victim, and the victim isn't responsible for the outcome. But victim position isn't empowering.

If you consider taking responsibility for the decision, then there is only one option that is that.