Best Strategy against Parental Alienation?

[Moselle]

Hi all,

My ex has played the game. 5 domestic violence applicationss to teach the girls I am dangerous. Regular indoctrination that I was a bad father and lazy amongst other negative things.

I sense the girl's reticense towards me and one doesn't call me dad anymore.

What is the best strategy against this nonsense?

[david]

My ex used alienation tactics against me too. I really had no answer.
I was sitting in a chair one day when the boys were with me. Our youngest, around six at the time, was in the room and said I was evil. I stood up like Frankenstein with my arms out and walked towards him and said I was the evil daddy monster coming to get him. There was a big smile on his face as I chased him around the house. It got easier after that.
They used to complain that I was always punishing them. At first I would ask them for examples and they couldn't give me any. One day I ran into a Wawa to get a cup of coffee. They were in the car and I could clearly see them from where I parked. Anyway. I bought them a Icee. I walked towards the car and had the Icee behind my back. I opened the door and put the Icee into the car and in a stern voice I said, "I bought you this Icee and you better enjoy it or I will punish you like you've never been punished before." It was obvious they were startled by the look on their faces. It took them a second or two and both smiled. For the next year or two whenever we drove by a Wawa they would ask to be punished.
I think the big thing for me was that I didn't do those things with my ex in mind. I wasn't trying to counter what she was doing but rather I was being me. If ex and I were together and our kids did the same things as they were doing I probably would have responded the same way in those situations. It only dawned on me afterwards that my action helped them see the truth.
I didn't do those things in an attempt to defeat the alienation. It just is my style. I did notice that those things helped them to overcome the alienation.
Finding that instant on how to debunk the crap from my ex took about a year and a half. During that time I also was consistent in my parenting method. Basically I was who I was with them.

[Moselle]

That sounds great.

I can play around with my 7 year old but the 12 and 15 year old just avoid me and refuse to talk about anything. It's so frustrating.

I get so angry because I know they are being put up to this. The mother is teaching them to lie to me. And when I call it out. I'm made to look Iike the bad guy for calling the lies.

I hope one day they begin to see the truth. I hope.

[Harri]

Hi Moselle.  So sorry to hear that your ex has been using PA to abuse you and your kids.  (But!  Congrats on the divorce!  I am very pleased for you regarding that aspect

I think david is on to something with the 'turning it into a joke' strategy.  My mother used PA to turn my brother and I against my father, but while they were still married.  My father, different from the non-fathers here in that he was her puppet, did nothing effective to counteract her allegations, insinuations, out right lies, etc.  would cry, retreat, hang his head in shame or express hurt and or anger.  As an adult, I can understand his reactions, but as a kid, they did nothing to dispell the damage my mother caused and my father allowed.

With your youngest, I think the jokes like david mentioned will work great.  With the older two I would think you could build off those 'jokes' and laugh.  Not at your kids or even your ex, but laugh at the content of the accusations.  A gentle laugh, one roll of the eyes and then continue on being you.  

Your kids will sense your anger, hurt, whatever reaction you have and in cases of PA, based on my own very limited experience, I do not think that helps nor does trying to reason or explain in a lasting way.  I have come to think of those ineffective strategies as validating the invalid in a way.  The twisted logic of pwBPD or abused kids would say why have a response like that if the accusations, behaviors, etc are untrue.  Your perfectly understandable hurt, anger, etc at the PA is in effect reinforcing the false beliefs IMO of course.

So why not make your response one that shows that you know the allegations themselves are bogus?  Try to separate out how you respond with your kids from the hurtfulness of the messages and the damage that is being done?  

As always, take what fits and ignore the rest.  As you know, I do not have kids, I am not married nor divorced and probably have little right to input here... .but I did it anyway!  I know PA from the other side.  

[david]

In the first few months after separation my ex dropped our two boys off. They were 4.5 and 8 at the time. They walked into the house and in unison said, "We hate you and never want to see you again. We want to live with mom." If I followed how I felt there would be a dead body in my driveway and our two boys would be raised by someone other than me since I would be doing a long stretch in prison. I simply looked at them and said ," I love you". The first year or two was tough. I do remember not taking it personally because I knew that wasn't them. I was angry with my ex for doing what she was doing but I saw no good reason to try to discuss it with her. I figured that would make things even worse.
I also made a decision back then that I would figure out a way that they would begin to trust me. I discovered that if they said something and I emailed my ex than they would suffer the consequences. Parallel parenting helped me establish a boundary. If they told something to their mom and she raged at me in an email I usually didn't respond. If I responded I only addressed the issue but not the allegations. It took practice but not giving ex any ammunition helped defuse things more quickly.
Eventually the boys started telling me things that their mom was saying about me. They asked me about it. I usually asked them what they thought about what she said. I listened. Most of the time they said that they didn't understand why mom would say such things and that they never saw anything like that from me. They also intimated that they didn't feel safe to talk to her about it because she would get mad at them. My usual reply was something like , "It sounds like your mom is upset about something".
I came to the conclusion that they were finding ways to deal with their mom when she was stressed. I then had to make sure they had a safe environment that I could model for them to show them the difference.

[Panda39]

"I discovered that if they said something and I emailed my ex than they would suffer the consequences. Parallel parenting helped me establish a boundary. If they told something to their mom and she raged at me in an email I usually didn't respond. If I responded I only addressed the issue but not the allegations. It took practice but not giving ex any ammunition helped defuse things more quickly.
Eventually the boys started telling me things that their mom was saying about me. They asked me about it. I usually asked them what they thought about what she said. I listened. Most of the time they said that they didn't understand why mom would say such things and that they never saw anything like that from me. They also intimated that they didn't feel safe to talk to her about it because she would get mad at them."

My SO and his daughters experienced something very similar to what david mentioned above.

I wanted to add be consistent when it comes to time with your kids, always show up when you are supposed to or phone when you say you will.  Show them that you desire to spend time with them, that they are important to you.

Panda39

[Moselle]

Thanks folks. I will try and use humour for this. David, you're a great example of how to deal with this nonsense.

Harri. It's been a rocky road. I pray that in can get to my children. Between her and her boyfriend they are causing the all sorts of problems.

[Sluggo]

Not sure if it is Kosher to bring up something from outside this site and you may have already heard this,, but I have found a lot of help with the RyanThomas Speaks web site.  He was an alienated child and now in his 30s talks about what it was like and how he reunited back with his Dad.  He says that when he was telling his Dad how much he hated him, he knew deep down he didn't feel that way but knew that is what his mom (and her family) wanted him to say.  He has some great questions to talk with the kids about to get them talking... .such as... .  Can I ask you (alienated child) a question?  If yes then ask... .

1.  What options, if any, do we have for having a closer relationship?   or
2.  If there was one thing I could apologize for, what would it be? 
etc etc.     

It has set my expectations more realistic and then doesn't hurt as much with the behavior and lets me see what my kids are thinking at the same time. 

I have also got a lot out of Dr. Childress in just understanding it better from my ex's point of view.  He is on the internet also and has a good book Foundations.   

[Moselle]

Thanks so much Sluggo. Nothing get wrong with recommending external sites.

I've read some of Childress's stuff.

I like you questions alot. I will ask them next time I see my girls

[livednlearned]

Moselle, have you asked your daughter why she doesn't call you dad anymore?

My SO saw our counselor, who pointed out that SO goes so above and beyond to be pure and not the person he is accused of being, that he sort of erases his own feelings. He is learning to insert his own emotions, to try and help the kids with perspective-taking, which is hard for alienated kids, and to elicit some empathy.

[Moselle]

1.  What options, if any, do we have for having a closer relationship?   or
2.  If there was one thing I could apologize for, what would it be? 
etc etc.     
 

I asked them #2. They were quite surprised by the question, but their demeanor softened. In that moment they realised they are angry at me (as an extention of their mother's anger)

They both answered. That "no, there was nothing they wanted me to apologise for". I said think about it, and if there is, please come back to me.

The conversation is open now. Next time I'll ask them Q1.

Thanks Sluggo. I realise it's about being there consistently

[david]

Sounds like you started on a positive note. You took them out of their pre programmed behavior. Everyone gets in routines and gently steering them into a better way of seeing things helps them change that routine. It will take time and being consistent.
I think #2 was a good question. It put the blame on you so it wasn't attacking them. They didn't put up defenses because you didn't give them a reason to and it broke the ice.

[livednlearned]

Q1 will be interesting to ask! It may help them see that their thoughts are their mom's, and that must be a pretty strange realization.

And if they have been taking cues from someone who does not excel at problem-solving and solutions, it may surprise them to recognize they can act independent of their mom and repair relationships.

[Moselle]

And if they have been taking cues from someone who does not excel at problem-solving and solutions, it may surprise them to recognize they can act independent of their mom and repair relationships.

I agree. They are two brilliant questions. Q2 sets a non confronting scene. And the answer might surprise them. I'm angry but he's done nothing wrong? Why? I could prompt that by saying "sometimes I feel you are angry at me, but when I ask what I did wrong you say , "nothing". I'm confused.

Then I go to Q1 about what I can do to improve the relationship.

Thanks guys

[Sluggo]

Moselle,

I am super excited that you experienced a little different behavior from asking those questions.  I know that feeling of just having a softening in the kids demeanor even for a passing moment means a lot to me also.

[Moselle]

Found out that the ex got married last night. 5 days after the divorce. During the the children's exam period. They have gone on a week's honeymoon. Children are not answering calls. I have no idea where they are staying. I Iive 600 km away. Total  breach of the divorce settlement passed in the High Court last week.

More drama. More stress on the children. I get so angry

[Sluggo]

Moselle,

I can imagine that hurts in so many different ways.  So sorry man. 

My parents divorced when I was 7 years old.  My Dad remarried within the same week of the divorce.  It didn't take me too long to put those pieces together and form an opinion of my Dad post divorce.