What do you think

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

But it seems to me using these tools is a kind of manipulation, almost like training a pet.   I feel uncomfortable with that on some level.

Also, even if you get to a state where you can accept living in this kind of situation, you'll always have to be careful what you say and do. You'll never have a real relationship, like equals in.a partnership.

Is that how you want to spend your life? Is that really living?

Stay or leave. Tougher than you'd think.

I have  been thinking about this a long time. Any thoughts? Anyone else?

[ohmygod]

But it seems to me using these tools is a kind of manipulation, almost like training a pet.   I feel uncomfortable with that on some level.

Also, even if you get to a state where you can accept living in this kind of situation, you'll always have to be careful what you say and do. You'll never have a real relationship, like equals in.a partnership.

Is that how you want to spend your life? Is that really living?

Stay or leave. Tougher than you'd think.

I have  been thinking about this a long time. Any thoughts? Anyone else?

[jonmnemonic]

It's a difficult dance regardless of your dancing shoes and partner.  The mental and emotional drain is overwhelming.  Coming to terms with the fact you can't work with your partner normally can either be defeating or liberating.  I went through the phases of:

- Not understanding her and fighting for what I knew was right
- Being pummeled by her into giving up
- Realizing I wasn't the crazy one and getting the heck outta Dodge
- Being reminded of my marriage vows and going back thinking it was possible to make things better
- Getting sucked back into the turmoil and not knowing how to manage the relationship and family
- Coming to terms with what I can and cannot change and setting healthy boundaries
- Being discarded because I would no longer be manipulated and participate in the crazy cycle

I can understand how someone would view using the tools as manipulation.  You have to keep in mind that if you're acting in their true best interest (not in what they tell you or perceive to be their best interests) then you aren't manipulating them at all.  It's the equivalent of telling a child they can't have dessert until they finish all their vegetables.  A wise man once told me "you can become the husband she needs without being the husband she wants."

[ohmygod]

Still it yet again is about her. Look at your post, it mostly comes down to what she needs, what she wants, she she she... .and when you talk to her it is I want this, I need this... .whole life this tools and energy and time goes towards managing her. It is quite normal to ask ourselves 'where the heck am I in all of this?' Basically tools or no tools one needs to become full time caretaker if one is to live with such people... .Damn if you do damn if you dont kinna thing... .

[jonmnemonic]

It really is like taking care of a child that demands all your time, energy and resources.

[ohmygod]

Exactly what I feel. Never being able to have a adult adult rs... .

[teapay]

I thought the tools were supposed to be used in the context of putting the non and the non’s  wellbeing first with the goal of making the non’s life better and not living primarily as the BPD’s caretaker.  Also, I thought the non could use the tools in whatever mix and degree (boundaries and consequences, validation of the positive) that was needed to achieve that end.  A big part of the process was to allow the non to gain more independence in the relationship and to force the partner to become more independent, both functionally and emotionally.   Alot of BPD can’t handle that and will blow up the relationship, and generally themselves too, but a few can adjust to the changed circumstances.  By doing this over the long term, however, the non’s life was guaranteed to improve regardless of whether the relationship survived or not. Plus the caretaking cycle would be ended or made more normal.  It can be assumed that the process will likely be difficult and confusing, and the ends likely imperfect, but the guaranteed improvement either way is a silver lining.