Why do they NEED to make a big deal out of nothing?

[foodlover]

So last night was absolutely out of control and confusing and psychotic. She asked what my plans were today. I said I had to go across town for a meeting with an old client named John.

Her: Oh. (long pause). You never told me about a john before.
Me: (Completely confused) John is an old client and I have had at least 10 meetings with him in the past year and I have told you about him every time and you have asked me about his emails and calendar invites in the past.
Her: (Strong voice) You have NEVER mentioned him.
Me: (realizing this is not worth fighting over) I have told you but its ok if you have forgotten. Its just John and he is an old client.
Her: You told me you had a meeting with Daniel.
Me: What? I don't even know a Daniel. The last Daniel I knew was in college. Look, Its not a big deal. John or anyone else it doesn't matter. Im just doing my job.
Her: I know that's what you told me.
Me: (I bust out laughing). Are you serious?
Her: (She looks panicked.) That's what you told me and now your story changes. Why did you tell me one thing and your doing another? It doesn't make sense.
Me: (I start doing things around the house to get ready. I wont let her make me late) I didn't tell you one thing and do another. Im not lying. (continue getting ready).
Her: Fine. If you cant be honest I don't know why Im in this relationship.
Me: If that's what you believe and you cant be with me that's your choice.
Her: Yeah. Why would I be with a liar?
Me: Ok. Im not a liar but if that's what you believe Im not going to stop you from messing things up.
Her: You messed things up. You always lie. I don't know what your hiding but I cant handle that anymore.
Me: Oh my god. This is crazy.
Her: Your crazy. You need to get yourself checked out. You have some type of mental disorder.
Me: You honeslty believe I am the one with the mental disorder?
Her: Yeah.
Me: Ok. Whatever you think. (Im still getting ready).
Her: Yeah. That is what I think. (she walks away and stays quiete).

About 5 minutes go by. No talking. I finish up and am about to leave. I walk up to her and say... Ok baby I am gonna leave now. We should at least say goodbye. I do love you.

I tried to pull her up to give me a hug and she wouldn't budge and wouldn't talk or say anything. There it is... .the silent treatment. My punishment for doing absolutely nothing. I felt my head about to explode and my blood boiling. I tried to calm down in 2 seconds. Enough to say... .

Me: Ok. Fine. I guess this is how your going to be today. Goodbye.
Her: And you too. Goodbye.

I left and slammed the door. I haven't heard anything from her in hours and normally she is blowing up my phone.

I cant stand it. Part of me is soo sick of this and I just want to take all her crap and throw it away. This crap happens all the time and I don't deserve it. Im so sick of it and I want to explode and run away from this craziness. How do you fix this kind of delusion? The more she stays silent the more angry I get. 51% of me is thinking of making it work and 49% is thinking of ditching her for good. The longer she goes the more I want to ditch her. Its unreal.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey foodlover, Suggest you decline to engage.  You're not going to "win" this argument with a pwBPD.  If you participate, she gets attention, which is what she desires.  You could say that she's goading you in order to get a reaction.  And you are giving her that reaction, so in a sense you are encouraging her behavior.  I did this all the time with my BPDxW so I'm not judging you!

LuckyJim

[foodlover]

I know I should not engage. The problem is that she is punishing me for something I did not do. Whether I like it or not it causes me deep pain. The feeling of rejection turns to anger and I don't know how to control that. If she didn't live with me it would be great and I could do my own thing but I cant just go home and relax. Being there while she blatantly ignores me is absurd. I can leave my own house for hours at a time but I still have to come back. And I have to be near that sourpuss person trying to punish me for nothing. Its infuriating.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FL, I hear you!  I was once in your shoes.  OK, good, you know that it's better not to engage, which is a step in the right direction.  Your next assignment is to carry it out, OK?  It's hard, I understand, to remain indifferent when one is bearing the brunt of her rage.  One could say that she is acting out on her turbulent emotions and you are the nearest person through whom she can find relief by offloading her anger.  The idea is to remove yourself as recipient of that anger through validation and boundaries, which takes practice.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

This kinda thing has gotten better in my r/s.  I try to stay friendly... .and DO NOT try to "solve the mystery". 

Perhaps even try to validate the confusion. 

"Yeah... .I know... .I forgot about it too... .until my calendar invite came up... .  Life sure is confusing sometimes... ."

be deliberate in switching subjects

"Hey... .can we try the new fish recipe that I found on-line?  I'll send you a link... .we can discuss it after my meeting in a hotel room with Megan... ."       

OK... .you can likely figure out which parts of the advice to only chuckle at in your head... .

FF

[foodlover]

"Yeah... .I know... .I forgot about it too... .until my calendar invite came up... . Life sure is confusing sometimes... ."

This makes it sound like I forgot to tell her or something. I told her twice. This happens often. She always starts something when I have meetings.

"Hey... .can we try the new fish recipe that I found on-line?  I'll send you a link... .we can discuss it after my meeting in a hotel room with Megan... ."  

LOL. Ok I have tried changing subjects but that usually pisses her off. She always switches right back or ignores when I try. She wont let it go. One time I tested by changing subjects 5 sentences in a row and she just kept going back to the craziness.  

[formflier]

Subject changing:  For now I would advise to stay friendly, but give her a choice after you have tried a couple subject changes.

"Hey... .(insert the crazy issue) seems really important to you.  I'm not able to focus properly on that right now.  Is there a time after 6pm tonight that works for you to continue the conversation about (insert crayzy topic)

Make it about you (you have lot on your mind at the moment)... .you want to deal with subject "properly"

If she keeps blabbing... .leave the conversation.  Politely but firmly.

FF

[formflier]

This makes it sound like I forgot to tell her or something. I told her twice. This happens often. 

Don't worry about how it "sounds"... .try it and see.  You are in "allegiance" to her... .or have "empathy" for how it is to "just remember" or forget something. 


Likely big picture is you are "abandoning" her to meetings.  Don't try to explain this to her... .just be aware.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

So last night was absolutely out of control and confusing and psychotic. She asked what my plans were today. I said I had to go across town for a meeting with an old client named John.

Her: Oh. (long pause). You never told me about a john before.
Me: (Completely confused) John is an old client and I have had at least 10 meetings with him in the past year and I have told you about him every time and you have asked me about his emails and calendar invites in the past.
Her: (Strong voice) You have NEVER mentioned him.
Me: (realizing this is not worth fighting over) I have told you but its ok if you have forgotten. Its just John and he is an old client.

Your (completely confused) response is where you "went wrong" and things started downhill. Yeah, she's gonna find things like a meeting with a client to get triggered by. You don't know when or why, but you need to handle it.

First tip: Whatever you do, don't JADE. You know she's triggered already, at the "Oh". It is pretty safe to assume that what she's triggered about is some kind of fear that has nothing to do with what you are actually doing. Your first instinct is to prove that she is wrong about that, and you try to JADE. You want to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain that her fears have no basis. Bolded sections in your quote are very much JADEing at her.

And as you can see, it didn't go well from there.

First thing is to notice yourself wanting to / trying to JADE, and just bite your tongue for a moment, and think.

A better/safer response would have been:

"John's an old client. I thought I'd mentioned him before, but maybe I forgot."

Or if the tone of the "Oh (pause) I've never heard... ." had a powerful (non-verbal) emotional charge in it, there was an opportunity to validate the feeling. You could possibly add something like this too:

"You sound really upset about this meeting I'm going to."

  Whatever you said, your choice to get ready and leave was right on.

FF's suggestion to disengage when she started dysregulating was a good one too, once it got that far.

[foodlover]

"John's an old client. I thought I'd mentioned him before, but maybe I forgot."

The thing that just got to me was the fact we have had this same argument at least 5 times before. I have told her who john was over and over and over again. I really strongly feel like she does not have that bad of a memory. She has a great memory. I feel like its something else. She didn't just forget John. And there is no reason to bring up this other name that I have never mentioned. It feels like fishing. I don't know what she is fishing for but its throwing whatever she can out there hoping to catch me or something like that. I don't know. Im wondering if she thinks I am seeing someone else or lying about a meeting all together and trying to twist things to catch me off guard. Maybe its more sadistic and she wants to see me in pain or punish me but doesn't have a good reason so she purposely makes a reason. I don't know. That's what makes me so crazy about this.

[Grey Kitty]

"John's an old client. I thought I'd mentioned him before, but maybe I forgot."

The thing that just got to me was the fact we have had this same argument at least 5 times before. I have told her who john was over and over and over again. I really strongly feel like she does not have that bad of a memory. She has a great memory. I feel like its something else. She didn't just forget John.

I've got no way to read her mind and figure out if she really remembers who John is or not.

You don't either.

OTOH, you do know her well enough that you are likely right about this.

That said, it doesn't matter whether she remembers who John is, or whether she's lying about it.

What matters is that if you let her drag you into a pissing match about what she does or doesn't remember, you lose... .not because of who is right or wrong, but because you just got pulled into a pissing match over it.

Don't take the bait.

[foodlover]

What matters is that if you let her drag you into a pissing match about what she does or doesn't remember, you lose... .not because of who is right or wrong, but because you just got pulled into a pissing match over it.

I 100% agree. I was trying to get out of the pissing match as quick as I could. I may have talked too much but my intent was to say my truth and not let her talk bad about me while I just sit and take it. I told her to believe whatever she wants to believe but this is my truth.

It seems like in these cases there is no winning. Trying to win only ends up in frustration. I feel like the only way I feel good about myself is losing with dignity. When I tried to be understanding and JADE until I was blue in the face I had no dignity. When I tried to validate, validate, validate when she just dismissed and punished I felt like a dog attached to a chain. And much weaker. If I am going to be punished no matter what at least I am going to do it standing up for myself. Sorry for the rant. That's just why I did what I did.

[Grey Kitty]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.  (Are you old enough to remember the movie War Games?)

And as for validation, a dysregulation, or an impending dysregulation is a really hard and low-odds time to try it; I'd recommend saving your energy and learning to validate at good times instead.

A regular diet of validating exchanges will really take the heat off and improve things generally, especially if you learn NOT to say invalidating things.

[Lucky Jim]

It seems like in these cases there is no winning. Trying to win only ends up in frustration

Right, which is why the best policy, as I said above, is usually to decline to engage.  Otherwise, you're buying into a Lose/Lose proposition, which is a recipe for frustration.  There's nothing logical or reasonable about it, but that's BPD for you!

LuckyJim

[Wrongturn1]

Foodlover:  Reading your transcript of the conversation with your GF actually triggered me a little bit because it is so incredibly similar to so many conversations that have played out between me and my uBPD wife of 19 years. 

I am wounded and worn down by two decades of this type of conversation.  Over the years, I have learned to play my part better and minimize the damage, along the lines of formflier's advice.  But honestly, if you are not married and don't have any kids with this person, my advice would be don't walk, but run out of that relationship like you would flee a burning building.

[formflier]

  I feel like its something else.

It is something else.

Spend as little energy as possible figuring out what that is.  In other words... .don't worry about the "something else".  She likely can't put it into words either.

What we do know... .is it is a dysfunctional way to meet a need or "fill a void".  She finds some sort of comfort or "normalcy" (to her) in the 5 or 10 or 20 times that she has forgotten and you have done "your thing" to explain who John is.

Unless you chance your side of this "dysfunctional dance"... .it is unlikely she will change.  So... .she will likely keep forgetting... .100 times... .then 200.  Pretty much as long as "it" works for her.

The longer you keep at it... .the harder it will be to change. 

The hope is that once you stop engaging... .she will stop forgetting.

Likely hood that she will "remember"... .is very... very low.

FF

[jonmnemonic]

It's totally crazy making but you need to learn not to engage.  It took me many years to learn that hard lesson.  Until I figured out I wasn't dealing with a rational person, I kept trying to deal with my BPD as if she was.

Every single time I was about to leave for a business trip she would accuse me of cheating on her.  The ensuing drama would result in being late for meetings and sometimes missing them altogether.  Going for a walk meant I was cheating on her.  Going out for food meant I was cheating on her.  Having food delivered to the hotel room while I was talking with her on the phone meant I was cheating on her with the delivery person.  Not talking with her on the phone until 2 or 3am meant I had an opportunity to cheat on her.  I let it bother me and tried doing the whole JADE thing.  It didn't and doesn't work.

There was no way to go on the trips without my BPD being angry, accusing me of all kinds of things and/or giving me the silent treatment.  I should have treated her and talked to her like I would a normal person and not responded to the nonsense; going on the business trips on time and doing what I needed to do.  In the end she would have done her thing anyway but I would have kept my sanity.

1. State the truth once and stop there
2. Don't engage in the bs
3. Do whatever it is you need to do regardless of what she says or how she acts
4. Love her in spite of her failures (doesn't mean you have to accept the junk)

Number 3 was the hardest thing for me to do as I wanted her to feel safe and loved and protected.  That's a mission even Ethan Hunt couldn't complete.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Jon, Like those four rules.  Took me a long time, however, to put them into practice!

LuckyJim

[ohmygod]

If you dont apply the 'tools' you will feel the way you do, angry and like well like sh*t but if you do apply them you probably will feel like well like sh*t. Just less.And you need to figure out if this 'less' is enough for you.

[cbm419]

FL-

this situation could have been copied from my own experience with my BPDbf.  Selective memory, all extreme gaslighting to the point I dont even trust my memory at times.

Oh and the subject change thing. Any time things start to get out of hand I often step in and say "listen i know this is hard for you and you feel pain, but we've just been repeating the same points at eachother, it seems like we should come back to this another time when we've both reflected"

i offer subject changes both small and large.
What are you going to do today?
lets call a mutual friend and make plans?
I think a nice dinner out would really cheer things up, its been a long day and we deserve it!

always turns right back to the previous topic of argument and worse than before, as he will suggest I am avoiding the issue, minimizing his pain, and just plain don't get it.  Usually, this ends up doubling the time we will have to spend- its basically starting all over.

what really drives me nuts tho is after everything has been hashed out, he still gives me the silent treatment and becomes emotionally catatonic.  I react by endlessly apologizing and trying to make him feel better. its a dead end.

and just like others have said here, lots of extremely controlling and long phone conversations till 3am when we arent together for the night.  somehow i always manage to say something completely awful during these, making what should be a goodnight i love you call (5 mins tops) into an hours long examination of my flaws or how i am not good at being his partner. i know his illness is creating a lot of these scenarios but to me it just seems like attention seeking to assuage his anxiety and overall mental state.

[Lucky Jim]

and just like others have said here, lots of extremely controlling and long phone conversations till 3am when we arent together for the night.  somehow i always manage to say something completely awful during these, making what should be a goodnight i love you call (5 mins tops) into an hours long examination of my flaws or how i am not good at being his partner.

Hey cbm, This is where boundaries come in: you set an internal limit, just for yourself, for the length of the call.  Say, 15 minutes, tops.  Then you sign off.  OK?

LuckyJim

[cbm419]

and just like others have said here, lots of extremely controlling and long phone conversations till 3am when we arent together for the night.  somehow i always manage to say something completely awful during these, making what should be a goodnight i love you call (5 mins tops) into an hours long examination of my flaws or how i am not good at being his partner.

Hey cbm, This is where boundaries come in: you set an internal limit, just for yourself, for the length of the call.  Say, 15 minutes, tops.  Then you sign off.  OK?

LuckyJim

the problem is i get punished in those situations.  if i say i need to go, even set a limit at the begining of the chat, he inevtiably creates some form of crisis when he hears me winding down the call.  then he plays the sufferer (as described on this site) by becoming upset, expecting me to read his mind and intuitively know how to calm him... .and when i cant instantly sense whats bothering him (which is 99% percent of the time, i am not psychic ) he flips like a switch to the "you dont get me, you dont understand me, we have communication issues."  its tough because im already agitated that im being kept on the phone, so its hard to take a breath and mitigate the situation without becoming upset myself.

also, he does this thing where i will say i love you, gotta go, -over and over- and he simply wont say bye.  if i force and end to the conversation he wont "consent" to saying goodbye himself.  so no matter how kindly i approach a forced goodbye, i am often texted thereafter and accused of hanging up on him.  so begins a brand new fight.  explaining that he should have known i had that limit all along doesnt work.  i get some form of "arent i important enough for 15 more minutes of your time" (its never 15 mins) or "if you were in a crisis i would never brush you off like you always do" (there is no real crisis, its artificial).

he sometimes senses himself doing this stuff and may stop before it gets bad.  but thats rare.

[findingmyselfagain]

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. My exfiance wasn't diagnosed but BPD seemed to nail what I dealt with on the head. I can relate to "strange" arguments that would seem to come out of the blue. The absolute first I can remember is when I went to her house the first time with my almost-finished frappucino. We probably spent an hour on her just talking about why did I finish the whole thing. I guess in her mind a perfect lover shared absolutely everything. I was also told that I interrupted a lot, after one of our dates blew up. I had worked a long day and dealt with terrible traffic and I was ready to order and eat... .while she wanted to tell me all about her day immediately. Probably one of the strangest was when she would get upset every time I told her I was inviting close friends to drive with us and to stay in the same hotel room (so we could save money). She would just act like she was devastated for hours on end. Of course, I was questioned and discredited if I was ever angry.

I used to think, what if I knew about the tools? What could I have done? It finally  hit me after a particularly explosive email from her that her reactions didn't have that much to do with my actual actions. Her emotional state is just wired so differently from mine. Now, knowing what I know, I don't think it would have mattered if I had known about BPD. At least I would have had the chance though.

It's up to you whether or not  you think that it's worth it. My hook was my compassion. My mother kind of had a temper, poor health, sad, so that's what I was comfortable with. Now I'm married to a woman who is beautiful on the outside but has an even better spirit. She's less easy-goign than I am, but she is always kind and loving and doesn't have nearly the elevated emotional reactions that I saw in my ex. Sometimes I don't feel comfortable but I have to work to go against what I was comfortable with before. Just because something feels comfortable doesn't mean that it's good for you. And vice versa.

Wish you the best on your journey!

[findingmyselfagain]

*My close friends and I were all invited to the same wedding. Sorry, left that out.

[flourdust]

Hey cbm, This is where boundaries come in: you set an internal limit, just for yourself, for the length of the call.  Say, 15 minutes, tops.  Then you sign off.  OK?

LuckyJim


the problem is i get punished in those situations. 

Well, this is where you decide if the boundary is worth it to you. It seems like your choice is:

1. Don't end the calls, be held on the line for hours and hours of abuse.

2. End the calls, receive some abusive texts, ignore them.

Nobody is saying that the boundary will make him behave better (though it might, after a while, once he's learned he has lost some control over you), but it might make YOU feel better by reducing the amount of abuse you are held hostage to. Ideally, you'd like option 3, where you end the calls and he's agreeable to that, but this is not a realistic option with BPD. So, you have to choose between the options in front of you. Which is better for you?

[formflier]

the problem is i get punished in those situations.  if i say i need to go, even set a limit at the begining of the chat, he inevtiably creates some form of crisis when he hears me winding down the call.  then he plays the sufferer (as described on this site) by becoming upset, expecting me to read his mind and intuitively know how to calm him... .and when i cant instantly sense whats bothering him (which is 99% percent of the time, i am not psychic ) he flips like a switch to the "you dont get me, you dont understand me, we have communication issues."  its tough because im already agitated that im being kept on the phone, so its hard to take a breath and mitigate the situation without becoming upset myself.

also, he does this thing where i will say i love you, gotta go, -over and over- and he simply wont say bye.  if i force and end to the conversation he wont "consent" to saying goodbye himself.  so no matter how kindly i approach a forced goodbye, i am often texted thereafter and accused of hanging up on him.  so begins a brand new fight.  explaining that he should have known i had that limit all along doesnt work.  i get some form of "arent i important enough for 15 more minutes of your time" (its never 15 mins) or "if you were in a crisis i would never brush you off like you always do" (there is no real crisis, its artificial).

  

Look at what I bolded.  That is the first place to look.  To me... it sounds a bit like "victim thinking" instead of "making my own choices" thinking.  Only you can be in touch with your thought processes... .but I would examine them closely.

Most people, me included, showed up at this website with a poor sense of boundaries.  We confused caring for other people with letting them run all over us.  

People sometimes ask me the #1 key to success for a r/s with a pwBPD and I unequivocally say boundaries.

You have to define your own life and your own choices first, then you can make choices about your r/s.  

Before you start down the road of "taking back your phone time"... .please make sure you are ready and can be consistent  If not... .delay taking action.  Inconsistent application of boundaries is worse than none at all.

This doesn't mean you can't change enforcement methods in the future.

I would suggest starting with giving a 5 minute heads up that call needs to end.  Then end it.  We can certainly help work out the words you use.

How does this sound so far?

FF

[jonmnemonic]

I think it's worthwhile to point out that boundaries aren't only necessary in relationships with PDs.  Healthy boundaries are necessary in every relationship, it's just more notable with PDs as they tend to walk all over them.

[formflier]

I think it's worthwhile to point out that boundaries aren't only necessary in relationships with PDs.  Healthy boundaries are necessary in every relationship, it's just more notable with PDs as they tend to walk all over them.

Absolutely! 

The skills I have learned as a result of learning to live with a pwBPD have paid dividends in my other relationships.

FF

[lovenature]

How do you fix this kind of delusion?

You don't; a PWBPD makes up their own reality based on their current emotion of the moment, and the saddest part of the disorder is the more you love them and the closer you get, the more they hurt you and push you away.

BPD is a serious mental illness that requires years of therapy to manage, without that commitment by the PWBPD and their partner to stay with them and manage their part in it, the relationship just can't be healthy.

[MaybeSo]

Just want to say I think you handled the initial confrontation really well.  You did not let yourself get derailed into a huge debate, you kept to your schedule and moved along.  It took me years to get to that point.  So, bravo.

The rest of the advice you are getting here is spot on. Including the boundaries discussion and the suggestion of offering the possibility that you may have forgotten to tell her (even if you feel 100% sure you did tell her multiple times).  I don't know your partner, but we do know that memory is very spotty in ways that most of us underestimate.  And, if she has had any kind of complex trauma, then she is prone to trigger off of environmental cues and act as if the past is happening again in the present.   Bottom line, there is no benefit to arguing over this stuff.  An admission that memory may have failed is just an easy and reasonable, friendly and kind offering.

If you then feel angry for being punished and dread coming home... .What I learned is that the way I digest or brew over what my partner is doing (the silent treatment or whatever) is also my responsibility to manage.  I avoided living with him because I found it too painful to  be in a home where I felt hostility at these times, so I ended up always having my own place for the peace. That was how I dealt with it.  Others may just chose to end the r/s because it seems too difficult.  There are a lot of ways to manage it, it's a personal choice.  But it is our job to manage our own feelings and responses and to take care of ourselves wisely.

One caveat; if you really wonder if she is just trying to cause you pain, like it's her intent to see you suffer, it will be very difficult to manage yourself well.  At some point we have to come to terms with a person's disability if we chose to be with them and not assign delusional or triggered responses as a personal intent to directly cause us pain and suffering.  If we can't get there, and if we remain unsure or never make peace with that (which took me again years to do, I wish I had resolved that earlier)... .you will feel like any human that suspects someone out there is targeting them for direct harm... .you are going to be in a Fight & Flight response much of the time which means you will not be able to use your prefrontal cortex to interact with her in friendly, smart, mindful ways.  We are wired to fight when we think something is trying to kill us or eat us aka cause harm intentionally.  It's just natural.  So you have to figure that out inside yourself... is she just wounded and unskilled?... .or is she a predator intent on harm?  If your brain thinks she's a predator (intent on harming you) the results of that are ... .ugly and painful.  For everyone.  Best to move on, for both of ou.  So, you have to to decide in your heart at some point, sooner than later hopefully,  if she is just a wounded person... .or a predator intent on harming you. And then remind yourself  of your resolve, whatever it is, over and over again.