Co-parenting Challenges After Divorce

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi everyone,

A brief history, then a few questions as I seek advice for how best to navigate things. Four years ago (I was married at the time) I discovered my wife was in an emotional affair. We spent 9 months in marriage counselling, at the culmination of it I uncovered that her affair had continued during the counselling and had turned physical and that she had two other confirmed physical affairs earlier in our 8 year marriage, and one while we were engaged in college. A serial cheater. This was about 3 years ago, I took my ring off, and we separated. In the interest of my daughters (5 and 8 now), I chose to go the no contest route and we both decided to tell people we were unhappy together, and felt that divorce was best. I always kept my daughters in mind, during this difficult time... .confiding in close friends and relatives about the extent of what had happened. I moved on, and focused on my daughters and being the best father I could.

My ex-wife has signs of BPD (posters on another forum tipped me off to it), it wasn't until I was on the outside that I started to recognize her need for chaos in her life. Reflecting back I see myself as a different man, and I was broken and confused the entire marriage, it was codependency for sure... .once out of it I started to heal a great deal. I became a better father, son and brother. I became confident in myself and my role in my daughters lives. In that I've been felt empowered and like I have a say in their lives (ironically more so than I had in our marriage, where everything had to go her way or else). I have a great relationship with both of my daughters, particularly the 8 year old who thinks and operates (mentally) very much like I do. We have joint custody, but she has about 75 of the time with the girls (a decision I made 3 years ago based on my situation at the time... .and knowing I didn't want my career to fall apart because of the divorce. She was a stay at home mom. I wish I had figured out a way to make 50% work (daycare, family help) but I didn't so I'm at where I'm at now). I get them every other weekend Thursday - Sunday. I attend all of their sports and never miss appointments (our youngest has a heart condition and receives a lot of medical care... .has had 3 open heart surgeries).

My ex-wife showed signs of repeating her same patterns with her dating life after our divorce, but I just observed this through patterns I noticed passively, and what my daughters would say about their lives and interactions with people. She moved from affair guy (the last one) quickly to another guy, but neither knew about the other. They overlapped a couple months. That next guy she was with for 18 months and he was involved with her family and my daughters. I liked him and met him a couple times, he was respectful and my daughters seemed to like him. About the last six months of their relationship my ex-wife was on dating sites and a new guy came up (who she ended up marrying this last summer). The reason I bring this up is because my daughter asked me about a year ago "is it ok to kiss two different guys?" and odd question from a 7 year old. So I asked her why she asked. We talked about it and she explained to me that she's met both of these men and sees her mother being affectionate with both, and being told not to tell each of them about one another. I told her, best I could at a 7 year old level, how she shouldn't hide things from people, and that her mother is likely doing that not to hurt the feelings of the two men... .I used it as a lesson for her to know that it's not something I agree with, but that mommy has a right to do what she wants with her life. However, she might end up hurting the feelings of those guys and if she really cares about them she should tell them. My daughter asked if she should tell them, and I told her no... .because of this I felt the need to bring it up from a context of "none of my business what you do in your personal life but I'd want to know if my daughter was seeing this kind of thing... .so here is what your daughter has said to me."

Here is the first big challenge I'm facing time and time again. Whenever I confront their mother about a situation I feel is a less than ideal parenting decision on her part... .she ends up punishing the girls for the knowledge. In this case, the next time I saw my daughter she told me "Mommy says she's really in love with (new guy) and that we can't see (old guy) anymore." so I guess that kind of solved the "problem" but I wonder how my daughter sees all of this and what the impact is on her. Honestly, I hate getting in the middle of it, but this is the link where we are tied forever... .at least to a great deal while the girls are so young. I've learned that it's best to avoid getting involved in her life... .but at times I get so upset at what I see and I fear my emotions about it affect how I react. I'm only human.

My ex-wife married the guy ("new guy" above) this last summer. I had an opportunity to meet with him for dinner for the first time. They told me 3 weeks before the marriage and then moved into a house in the same neighborhood that my ex-wife and I used to live in (which is kind of awkward... .I'm not sure how it's not weird for her). I chose to keep all of my history with my ex-wife to myself... .and focus our conversations about my daughters and just trying to get to know this guy who is now going to be a significant character in their lives. It was then that I found out about when they started dating and how... .it was clear in his description, and romanticizing their "love at first sight" and that he had a previous marriage 10 years ago but hadn't dated at all because he was so picky about finding "the one"... .it seemed to me that he had been blindsided by her ways, and I could relate to how her and I first started (it seemed so perfect at first). He didn't know she was still involved, and her children, with this other guy about half the time they were together before getting married. Anyway, that's about her character... .the reason I mention it. I did grapple with this tug of war in my head at the time... .wanting this guy to know the history and who I was as a father to my daughters. I got the impression he was told I abandoned them, walked out... .his advice to me seemed to center around hanging in there and trying to be more active in their lives. Odd because I always have been (he'd been told otherwise from her). [to be continued]

[Thomas0311]

Hi everyone,

A brief history, then a few questions as I seek advice for how best to navigate things. Four years ago (I was married at the time) I discovered my wife was in an emotional affair. We spent 9 months in marriage counselling, at the culmination of it I uncovered that her affair had continued during the counselling and had turned physical and that she had two other confirmed physical affairs earlier in our 8 year marriage, and one while we were engaged in college. A serial cheater. This was about 3 years ago, I took my ring off, and we separated. In the interest of my daughters (5 and 8 now), I chose to go the no contest route and we both decided to tell people we were unhappy together, and felt that divorce was best. I always kept my daughters in mind, during this difficult time... .confiding in close friends and relatives about the extent of what had happened. I moved on, and focused on my daughters and being the best father I could.

My ex-wife has signs of BPD (posters on another forum tipped me off to it), it wasn't until I was on the outside that I started to recognize her need for chaos in her life. Reflecting back I see myself as a different man, and I was broken and confused the entire marriage, it was codependency for sure... .once out of it I started to heal a great deal. I became a better father, son and brother. I became confident in myself and my role in my daughters lives. In that I've been felt empowered and like I have a say in their lives (ironically more so than I had in our marriage, where everything had to go her way or else). I have a great relationship with both of my daughters, particularly the 8 year old who thinks and operates (mentally) very much like I do. We have joint custody, but she has about 75 of the time with the girls (a decision I made 3 years ago based on my situation at the time... .and knowing I didn't want my career to fall apart because of the divorce. She was a stay at home mom. I wish I had figured out a way to make 50% work (daycare, family help) but I didn't so I'm at where I'm at now). I get them every other weekend Thursday - Sunday. I attend all of their sports and never miss appointments (our youngest has a heart condition and receives a lot of medical care... .has had 3 open heart surgeries).

My ex-wife showed signs of repeating her same patterns with her dating life after our divorce, but I just observed this through patterns I noticed passively, and what my daughters would say about their lives and interactions with people. She moved from affair guy (the last one) quickly to another guy, but neither knew about the other. They overlapped a couple months. That next guy she was with for 18 months and he was involved with her family and my daughters. I liked him and met him a couple times, he was respectful and my daughters seemed to like him. About the last six months of their relationship my ex-wife was on dating sites and a new guy came up (who she ended up marrying this last summer). The reason I bring this up is because my daughter asked me about a year ago "is it ok to kiss two different guys?" and odd question from a 7 year old. So I asked her why she asked. We talked about it and she explained to me that she's met both of these men and sees her mother being affectionate with both, and being told not to tell each of them about one another. I told her, best I could at a 7 year old level, how she shouldn't hide things from people, and that her mother is likely doing that not to hurt the feelings of the two men... .I used it as a lesson for her to know that it's not something I agree with, but that mommy has a right to do what she wants with her life. However, she might end up hurting the feelings of those guys and if she really cares about them she should tell them. My daughter asked if she should tell them, and I told her no... .because of this I felt the need to bring it up from a context of "none of my business what you do in your personal life but I'd want to know if my daughter was seeing this kind of thing... .so here is what your daughter has said to me."

Here is the first big challenge I'm facing time and time again. Whenever I confront their mother about a situation I feel is a less than ideal parenting decision on her part... .she ends up punishing the girls for the knowledge. In this case, the next time I saw my daughter she told me "Mommy says she's really in love with (new guy) and that we can't see (old guy) anymore." so I guess that kind of solved the "problem" but I wonder how my daughter sees all of this and what the impact is on her. Honestly, I hate getting in the middle of it, but this is the link where we are tied forever... .at least to a great deal while the girls are so young. I've learned that it's best to avoid getting involved in her life... .but at times I get so upset at what I see and I fear my emotions about it affect how I react. I'm only human.

My ex-wife married the guy ("new guy" above) this last summer. I had an opportunity to meet with him for dinner for the first time. They told me 3 weeks before the marriage and then moved into a house in the same neighborhood that my ex-wife and I used to live in (which is kind of awkward... .I'm not sure how it's not weird for her). I chose to keep all of my history with my ex-wife to myself... .and focus our conversations about my daughters and just trying to get to know this guy who is now going to be a significant character in their lives. It was then that I found out about when they started dating and how... .it was clear in his description, and romanticizing their "love at first sight" and that he had a previous marriage 10 years ago but hadn't dated at all because he was so picky about finding "the one"... .it seemed to me that he had been blindsided by her ways, and I could relate to how her and I first started (it seemed so perfect at first). He didn't know she was still involved, and her children, with this other guy about half the time they were together before getting married. Anyway, that's about her character... .the reason I mention it. I did grapple with this tug of war in my head at the time... .wanting this guy to know the history and who I was as a father to my daughters. I got the impression he was told I abandoned them, walked out... .his advice to me seemed to center around hanging in there and trying to be more active in their lives. Odd because I always have been (he'd been told otherwise from her). [to be continued]

[Thomas0311]

[continued from above] So I spent a great deal of this meal describing just how active I had been and my philosophies on parenting and the rest. It was cordial... I left it feeling good about the guy.

Since that time things have headed south. I think a part of it is my ex-wife painting me as wrong in everything and working to be a victim in every exchange we have. They both seem to be actively trying to remove me from the girls life... .like they are bothered I'm around. The regular date nights I take my daughters on have been pushed aside. I get e-mails from my ex that seem to be written from him (it's doesn't sound like her) that point to a lot of power moves and are written almost as though I'm lucky to have the time with them I do. I find myself getting so agitated and resorting to an older self of wanting to tell people how she is... .who she really is. To validate my position of feeling so taken advantage of in all of this. I know this is unhealthy and it only serves to get more mixed up in the drama. It's a constant struggle to deal with someone who has this disorder. If things are chaotic she gets nice about stuff... .when I'm stand-offish and stern... .she's proper and nice. She's so masterful at finding ways to rope me in, in very subtle ways... .like agreeing, in front of my daughter, to allow me to take her to dinner only to then send me an e-mail saying "oh so sorry... .we're focusing on our new traditions now... .it's not going to work this month... .lets try next month." and I know this is her own issues that this year the girls are with me for Christmas and she's upset over that.

Are there any books or support groups in dealing with this kind of stuff. Single dads trying to stand up for their place in kids lives... .and how to manage the landmines that get thrown out there from BPD personality exes. I'd say 95% of the time I'm ok, and everything works... .I set boundaries and stick to them and I just work what I can in my own relationship with my daughters... .but in the time where we have to communicate or work together on things. She is persistent in causing havoc. So much so that at times i feels like co-parenting, or attempting to, is actually more damaging to my daughters than simply ignoring her and trying to go at everything devoid of interaction with her.

Maybe this was just a lot of venting... .I could really use some feedback and advice. Last night was tough on me. My daughter noticed we hadn't been on a dinner date in a while... .and she was so excited when her mom said yes. I can only imagine her let down... .and I'm sure her mom is not making this easy on her. I have a call with my lawyer this afternoon about this. As I understand it... .if for the last 3 years we've had a regular routine (I have records, about 22 dinner dates each year total) of these dinner dates in the middle of the 10 day period I don't have my daughters... .even though it's not in our agreement, it's been established and is a beneficial thing for the girls. Since their marriage the frequency has been cut in half. I'm going to pursue trying to get some kind of legal process underway to... .force her to allow her daughters to maintain that relationship with me. I'm already dreading how she's going to deal with that... .and can anticipate a million ways shell make it miserable for my daughter and me.

My gut tells me that the underlying issue here is that her new husband views this all from a different scope (when really he has no legal say in things). He has primary custody of his 12 year old son, with his own ex-wife who, as I understood it, is rather absent from his life and she sort of comes and goes so he's taken on the main responsibility for their son... .in that he has a lot more power, say and control over the custody - he may actually be sole custody and just give her visitation. (my ex started calling my time visitation recently). Ever since he entered the picture she's gotten bolder in how she handles issues with the girls and speaks as though she's somehow got more than a 50/50 say in their lives. Some of the e-mails seems to be written from him (not her) because of the tone and words don't fit with what I know of her.

When I started learning more about BPD, and how they operate her actions started to make much more sense... .I wish I had this knowledge earlier on in the processes, because I've been seesawing on this never ending chaos with her. Advice and conventional wisdom in how to co-parent and deal with divorce and children all points to working together... .giving and taking, which I've done always in my daughters interest. Accepting that both sides need to give and sometimes you have to be first. I've been completely taken advantage of by her because of this. I described it to my friend as... .it's like I become anxious every time things are going well or she's nice. At random moments during those times she'll surprise you in the most nasty ways. I could never tell if it was something in her own environment that tipped her, or if she just needs the chaos... .but she always is at her worst when I'm being cooperative and giving in in ways that I assumed would have been reciprocated. I learned the hard way to stop this cycle, the best I could, but just keeping her at arms length... .not saying thank you, or that I appreciate things... .to always be skeptical when she's being nice. Compassionate, yet consistently strict in my view of things.

[takingandsending]

Hi Thomas. It is so difficult to parent with a pwBPD. Because they operate from a feelings=facts experience, it makes it very difficult to reach agreements. And I can only imagine how tough it is to have to talk to your girls about your ex wife's approach to relationships! 

I suggest that you post this on the legal board. I would definitely consult with your attorney. The date night visits are precedent, which if documented, is recognized by courts. Likewise, I think you would have an uphill battle if you intended to move from 25% to 50% custodial time, even if it's written in the divorce decree, because precedent has been at 25% custodial time.

Firm boundaries, validation and consistency are the tools that many of us are learning with our current or former partners. It's like a crash course in emotional health filled with as many obstacles as the pwBPD can create to entangle us. Hang in there, and know that you are doing the right things for your girls and that you are there for them. Sorry for what you are going through. 

[Turkish]

You sound like a kind person, and also logical.  It's often hard to remain like that given the requisite drama in such relationships. Your traits also help you being a great dad,  which is what I get. 

A couple of years ago,  my T stopped me and commented that he saw I wad finally getting angry.  I gaped at him,  but understood what he was saying.  Anger leading towards conflict and drama isn't always productive.  It can be,  however,  both justified,  as well as pointing is towards what may need to be done.  Finding a balance is key as anger should work for us rather than the reverse. 

Personally,  I'd be very angry of I were in your place.  I think you handled the previous
situation(s) with grace. Step-dad or not,  what is going on now feels unacceptable. 

Despite the fact that the unofficial modification of the custody order has worked until now,  is still a legal document.  If not she,  then he,  might need to be reminded of this.  Are you up to talking to him and reminding him about these legal boundaries?