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Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting
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How do I negotiate?
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Topic: How do I negotiate? (Read 707 times)
takingandsending
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Gender:
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121
How do I negotiate?
«
on:
January 05, 2017, 04:46:40 PM »
STBxw (stay at home mom) and I (wage earner) married 17 years; S5, S11; collaborative divorce; still living under same roof.
Issue: Wife wants me to move out
My conditions: 1) Tentative custody schedule in place (we are attempting to nest, i.e. kids stay in house, both parents come and go)
2) Financial plan to pay additional costs of room, studio or what have you to accomplish nesting
Tentative schedule is moving forward okay. Financial plan not so much. STBxw is proposing renting spare bedroom to a friend of hers to finance rental of a room outside of house for us to use. [History: she has requested to keep the house; the equity (about $120k) is our biggest joint asset but equalizes with my 401k.]
Her proposal might make sense if not for dealing with pwBPD - gives me BIG worries. I have contacted my L to see what he protections he says need be in place. He has experience with BPD clients and clients with BPD spouses.
My initial attempt at sorting through this:
"Hello. Hoping you are well today. I wanted to let you know that I am open to renting out the guest bedroom as a possible source of income under the following proposed conditions (which can be discussed/negotiated next week with divorce coach or at 4 way meeting):
1) Renter is non-smoker, non-drug user.
2) Renter is someone that we both agree upon, at least for as long as nesting will be occurring.
3) Renter will sign some type of agreement, holding them responsible for losses due to damage/destruction of property.
4) Room should not be rented out for at least 2 months after initial nesting has taken place to allow for stability of transitions for S11 and S5.
5) Some provision for the kids' play area must be made [as guest bedroom is their prime play area].
6) All money from the rental must be applied only to household costs of a separate living accommodation for you and me during nesting."
NOTE
: I have not sent anything to my wife and will not until I have spoken with my L.
Would value some advice - I tried to follow BIFF. I have doubts that anything that I am doing will work out, but I am committed to trying to do the lowest conflict approach for my sons while maintaining minimum 50% custody to be there for them. They are most important.
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rarsweet
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Posts: 592
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #1 on:
January 05, 2017, 07:55:26 PM »
Have you considered that this friend may report back to ex about your life while you are in the house during your time?
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ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18799
You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #2 on:
January 05, 2017, 08:51:58 PM »
Quote from: takingandsending on January 05, 2017, 04:46:40 PM
STBxw (stay at home mom) and I (wage earner) married 17 years; S5, S11; collaborative divorce; still living under same roof.
Issue: Wife wants me to move out
My conditions: 1) Tentative custody schedule in place (
we are attempting to nest, i.e. kids stay in house, both parents come and go
)
2) Financial plan to pay additional costs of room, studio or what have you to accomplish nesting
[History: she has requested to keep the house; the equity (about $120k) is our biggest joint asset but equalizes with my 401k.]
I want to call this helicopter parenting but I fear that term has already been claimed by overanxious parents? Anyway, while I understand your efforts
and especially your concern about having a firm schedule in place first
, it generally isn't practical in our high conflict, oppositional cases.
My point is that trying to keep the children in the house while the parents pop in and out is unlikely to succeed. (And especially not long term unless you both are independently wealthy and the expense of maintaining 3 homes is not a concern. The general expectation of all the professionals is that each parent should work toward getting his and her own residence. Then the children go between the two homes with the least friction possible. That way the children get to live in the parents' homes, not the parents living in the children's home.
I know you probably want the children to experience as little change as possible. That's nice as a concept but when a marriage ends there are two separate adult lives and homes, especially when there are conflicts and little cooperation between parents. So while you may try this for a while, understand that it almost surely will fail sooner than later. Granted, you might be an exception but around here those odds are low.
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takingandsending
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #3 on:
January 06, 2017, 12:00:55 AM »
Foreverdad,
Nesting is definitely only short term. Goal is 100% two separate households. This is a transition. Maybe better than me just moving out, maybe not. If it doesn't work, temporary agreement changes.
Rarsweet
Yes. We are not litigating so possibly less a concern. However, it is part of reason for second condition.
Basically, my income is it for us. We have no stores of independent wealth. I need to be able to pay for an extra place while not with kids. Even if we immediately went to two separate households, they'd have to both be paid for by me. Practical solution is to sell house, split equity and fund new home (rental or purchase) but that is not likely to happen anytime soon. BPDw cannot live in house together as I have to be all black to fit her world model. So, until then trying to find a way to be out of each other's company and sharing custody of kids. She will not get a job. Not even looking for one. She believes her healing work business will manifest money and is only being held back by me and my lack of faith in her. And she is counting on maintenance money from me of course.
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scraps66
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Relationship status: Separated 9/2008, living apart since 1/2010
Posts: 1514
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #4 on:
January 06, 2017, 02:12:16 PM »
With the six step process criteria I see lots of opportunity to engage and quibble over things.
One thing you may need to consider or at least give some thought to - is there any possibility you get booted from the house? Is there any possibility that STBx changes her mind, gives up on the collaborative approach (which is a low percentage process with a BP) and has you booted from the house?
Your time line sort of matches my own, I field, we lived together for a year and then BAM. When she got a job to go back to work, she had me booted and gained exclusive possession of the house and in so doing got the controlling hand for the remainder of the case. I'm out, new boyfriend is moved in, and it goes on this way for 15 months with me having to move twice in that time period.
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takingandsending
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #5 on:
January 06, 2017, 04:08:41 PM »
Hey scraps.
Absolutely, oppty for quibbling over things is unending. This is meant to be temporary. I don't want to be in the house because quibbling already abounds. I don't think it will lessen, but the frequency that it happens will decrease based on less contact with each other.
According to my L, she could boot me out right now on the basis that I requested this divorce and on how long we have lived in house together (8.5 years) and that she is a stay at home mom. L said our courts would side with her, i.e. allow her to stay at house until division of property is complete. The nesting is meant to be a short term fix (I am trying to do this for only 3-5 months and then try to move toward more separate households). It is the best alternative that I have to start parallel parenting, even knowing that it likely will not work for long. Just moving out cuts off my access to kids altogether - I won't do that unless she forces me to by litigating, and then I will fight her in court. For the time being, if she doesn't litigate, I will not litigate, but I am prepared to as necessary.
My L advises that court generally addresses divorce in the following order: 1) Custody, 2) Child Support, 3) Maintenance, 4) Division of Property. If this is true, I am finding it next to impossible to move towards a separate household. I cannot buy a home without pulling equity from the sale of our current home or taking a loan on my 401k, which I believe I am not supposed to touch until division of property is settled. I cannot rent a home/apartment/room and maintain mortgage payments on our current house.
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ForeverDad
Retired Staff
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18799
You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #6 on:
January 06, 2017, 04:14:05 PM »
Quote from: takingandsending on January 06, 2017, 12:00:55 AM
BPDw cannot live in house together as I have to be all black to fit her world model.
PwBPD are know to view ALL past relationships as bad ones or else then they would have to accept at least some responsibility for the marriage's implosion/failure. Theirs is a world of utter Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting. If she had relationships before you, likely they were cast as evil too. The reality is that they might have been okay guys for all you know but not in her later perceptions.
Quote from: takingandsending on January 06, 2017, 12:00:55 AM
She will not get a job. Not even looking for one. She believes her healing work business will manifest money and is only being held back by me and my lack of faith in her. And she is counting on maintenance money from me of course.
You must always present the official stance that she should find employment. Virtually every time in court or in negotiations. Otherwise you will end up supporting her evermore.
My ex claimed to have work but never produced any paperwork. I knew she wasn't making even minimum wage but all agreed to
impute
her income at minimum wage. That limited my exposure to even higher child support calculations. I suggest that even when she says she's not making money that she be
imputed
as earning an income that is feasible for her. For example, if local businesses pay $10/hour then she could be imputed with $20K income. Try that and see whether your lawyer or the professionals agree.
It probably is best to have the legal process started as you have done, rather than waiting for more years. Your 17 years puts you somewhere in between a medium length marriage and a long one. I don't know what my state does for alimony but the lawyers agreed in a favorable (to me) 2 months for every year for alimony. I was married 15 years when we separated, 18 years at the final decree so I agreed to 36 months of alimony. Other report different ratios, but usually no more than half the length of marriage. Just just guessing but your maximum risk for alimony might be somewhere between 5 to 8 or 9 years. (I think Michigan which favors women might be more, Texas might be only 3 years. My point is that no matter how much she tries to guilt you into caving in, don't be guilted.)
A collaborative divorce may be a real challenge. Odds are she won't agree to anything not in her entitled interest. Of course, you have equal right to refuse to agree to anything unreasonable. What can be done with the many items she refuses to agree to? (Understand too that if she agrees to things, there is high risk she will later recant her agreement. What happens then?)
At the very least, once the children are adults, generally age 18, any support should end. Child support will reduce from 2 kids to 1 kid in 6-7 years when one child ages out of the child support system, then fully ends in a dozen years.
Now don't share this with her, sharing the wrong information too often is self-sabotaging, though it may eventually figure into an eventual settlement you reach. Some spouses who refuse to work may agree to a settlement of shorter spousal support or alimony if the working spouse pays for a couple years of college or career training. Yes, 4 years is too much, limit any offers to a strict "up to 2 years" and with a clear definite date and $$$ cap (perhaps set to a local community or state college tuition fee structure) so the spouse doesn't choose Dartmouth or some other ridiculously expensive place. Or finding excuses to extend two year into more. Completion is her responsibility, she's an adult after all. The 'theme' is that post-marriage support is solely to transition the spouse into post-marriage life. Oh, and you may want a "new relationship" clause where alimony is reduced or ended if she find another, er, target, enabler or victim. Since these days many don't remarry and deny new relationships you may want to determine how a "new relationship" is identified.
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takingandsending
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #7 on:
January 06, 2017, 06:08:04 PM »
Thanks, ForeverDad. I will definitely ask my L about how to calculate her income. I just figured it would be taken off of tax returns, which would not be good for me. But if I can project minimum wage, that would be very helpful. I don't want to leave her high and dry because it wouldn't be good for our sons. But I definitely want a time limit for her to stand (or not) on her own two feet. I am hoping for 4 year max wrt maintenance, particularly if I am willing to let her keep the house/equity while I keep 401k . But to be honest, I don't think she will be able to get a new loan in her name on the house. Still seems like best option is to sell and split equity. And yes, our state stipulates that if another income earning adult joins the household, the child support to be recalculated. I will ask L about same stipulation in maintenance.
My own fault. Caretaking as a way of hiding behind esteem issues led to this mess. Living and learning. Keeping kids in the front of my priorities.
I have been in this so long that I really don't know whether my wife is low functioning or moderate functioning BPD. She would say she is high functioning and of course, not BPD. I guess it doesn't much matter. I just need to stay focused on the business of ending the marriage.
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ForeverDad
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18799
You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #8 on:
January 07, 2017, 02:01:58 PM »
Can she afford the house?
The mortgage must be solely in her name, can she even get a refinance on her own? (Don't gift her the house and deed while staying on the mortgage! That is begging for problems later!) Can she afford the house insurance, real estate taxes, utilities, repairs, etc? If not, then a word of advice, probably best to sell the house and you each get more modest homes or apartments. (And if sold then get legal advice on how capital gains are assigned.)
Also, some financial analysts are saying inflation will return, perhaps savagely. Whether that happens or not, keep the possibility in mind. Understand that your 401(k) is pre-tax except for the Roth portions. You may have, for example, $150K in a retirement account but Uncle Sam will eventually want a heft chunk in taxes, perhaps 25-35%. The home equity is post-tax money except for capital gains issues you would need to discuss with a lawyer or financial advisor.
BTW if you do end up splitting your retirement accounts, don't you dare hand her a check. Get a QDRO (my lawyer let me save money and I used QDRODesk.com) and have the retirement company split the account into two separate accounts, yours and hers. Then whatever she does with the money she withdraws is her own legal problem, Uncle Sam won't demand money from you for her actions with her portion and you won't pull your hair out over that.
During our separation I got possession of the marital home. I was able to afford it and so I kept it. I'm approaching retirement age, will soon be out of a job and I still have 25 years left on the mortgage! Sometimes I look back and wish I had sold the house back then.
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takingandsending
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #9 on:
January 07, 2017, 06:27:50 PM »
Hey, ForeverDad. I agree with everything you said. My first thoughts were to sell house and try to rent/buy more modest homes. She has friends telling her we must not lose the equity. She has no retirement acct and very low soc security payout because she has been self employed and losing money for so long. I have no intention of staying on any loans with her. I don't want her to have no security, but I also cannot convince her to sell, which would at least give her a few years to find a source of income. My guess is that she will remarry by that time. I don't think she can be on her own.
So, the QDRO is a way to split a retirement account? I had better start to research that
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ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18799
You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...
Re: How do I negotiate?
«
Reply #10 on:
January 07, 2017, 11:09:06 PM »
Regarding QDRO's, yes, that's required if splitting some of a retirement account out to another. Note that you view Traditional (pre-tax) and Roth (after tax) monies differently. The action you cannot ever take is to take out some of it and hand her a check. If she doesn't - and she won't - put it promptly into her own retirement account, the government will come after
you
for the Traditional taxes and 10% early withdrawal penalty. However, if you do it properly by having the company split the account into two according to the details in the QDRO, then any withdrawal she makes comes from her account and she pays any taxes or penalties.
Use us here on peer support as sounding boards for your thoughts, plans, ideas and strategies. We're pretty good at spotting the weak links and faulty logic (that can usually fail or usually work) when dealing with (1) a disordered stbEx and (2) enabling and glacially slow legal system. It's a judicial system, not a justice system.
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