Going to counseling and fighting with my uBPDw - II

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So as many of you know my uBPDw and I are living separately. Individually this is beneficial for us. Individually we are happier and at peace. That has not been the case for us as a couple; in fact, when we have gotten together we pretty much argue same as before. Emotions are a lot more raw and my wife has painted me even blacker. We basically have to talk about benign subjects or things start to go south... .FAST.

So I think keeping in contact with her is not a good thing. It is not like she gives me love and affection. Won't wear her wedding bands. Says it doesn't "feel like a marriage" anymore. Yeah. Certainly no hearts and Air Supply. But true to form for nons in a BPD world, I have felt like I need a little dose of her. That dose is not doing me any good... .it's toxic.

I am not eloquent tonight. My brain is a bit scrambled because I met with her for dinner and it ended badly. An argument "BPD" style of course. All the bells and whistles... .projection, gas-lighting, etc... .followed by some good ole circular arguments. Yes. I tried the tools. Failed miserably. She was off the rails tonight. I began to JADE but then I stopped myself. She was driving me home and I didn't want her to drive recklessly so I was kind of trapped and had to listen to a lot of dysregulation. I arrived safely thank God ( she was hitting the gas and cut somebody off resulting in road rage and a lot of honking).

I think the only contact I should have with her is in therapy. For my own sanity. And maybe that will help me "break the spell" that I seem to be under. My therapist who does energy work feels that my wife has a very negative hold on me, kind of like an energy vampire and it is very dark. That's scary to me but also makes sense if you believe in supernatural things.

I guess I have to ask myself what am I getting out of keeping in contact with her other than hoping to see a glimmer of what I loved about her.

Like I said my brain is all scrambled now. A perfect example of how it feels after we have a go around with these pwPBD.

Any of your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[michel71]

So as many of you know my uBPDw and I are living separately. Individually this is beneficial for us. Individually we are happier and at peace. That has not been the case for us as a couple; in fact, when we have gotten together we pretty much argue same as before. Emotions are a lot more raw and my wife has painted me even blacker. We basically have to talk about benign subjects or things start to go south... .FAST.

So I think keeping in contact with her is not a good thing. It is not like she gives me love and affection. Won't wear her wedding bands. Says it doesn't "feel like a marriage" anymore. Yeah. Certainly no hearts and Air Supply. But true to form for nons in a BPD world, I have felt like I need a little dose of her. That dose is not doing me any good... .it's toxic.

I am not eloquent tonight. My brain is a bit scrambled because I met with her for dinner and it ended badly. An argument "BPD" style of course. All the bells and whistles... .projection, gas-lighting, etc... .followed by some good ole circular arguments. Yes. I tried the tools. Failed miserably. She was off the rails tonight. I began to JADE but then I stopped myself. She was driving me home and I didn't want her to drive recklessly so I was kind of trapped and had to listen to a lot of dysregulation. I arrived safely thank God ( she was hitting the gas and cut somebody off resulting in road rage and a lot of honking).

I think the only contact I should have with her is in therapy. For my own sanity. And maybe that will help me "break the spell" that I seem to be under. My therapist who does energy work feels that my wife has a very negative hold on me, kind of like an energy vampire and it is very dark. That's scary to me but also makes sense if you believe in supernatural things.

I guess I have to ask myself what am I getting out of keeping in contact with her other than hoping to see a glimmer of what I loved about her.

Like I said my brain is all scrambled now. A perfect example of how it feels after we have a go around with these pwPBD.

Any of your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ynwa]

Michel, I feel you trying to handle this.  It's certainly taking all you have.

You are searching, bargaining for the one spot of calm you can find.  You don't seem to be getting it when you are working so hard.  You see yourself not making sense to yourself in writing this post.  Is it possible that you aren't making sense because what you are doing doesn't feel right?  You must feel like that Tasmanian devil cartoon, a big cloud of spinning emotion?

I'm reading a book called Codependent No More.   Read just the first chapter.  It will give you perspective.  No one is hurting you or making you feel anything right now other than you.  No one. There is one person who can make you feel better.  YOU. 

You took steps to protect yourself legally.  That's fantastic.  Your other relationship can wait, it really can. Because your relationship with you needs work. 

I say this to you because everyday, I struggle and everyday I find ways to "get through".  It's sucks because I didn't ask for this, and I bet you didn't either.

Make a list of three things to do that have nothing in it for anyone but you. The next day make it four, and so on.  Small steps, smile.  You can do this.

[michel71]

Today things are a bit better. I reached out to apologize for my part in making it worse. I listened to her a bit ( she wasn't on a rant so it was okay), tried to validate, listen with empathy. She is hurt and devastated by the emails she found that I wrote to a friend where I called her a BPD, Narcissist, among other things. I have posted about that before. My therapist and friends say to let it go. Of course I cannot do that really when she is bringing it up still. And of course I start to feel terrible about it again.

She said that she read an article that people who are separating should be kind to each other, treat each other decently and avoid emotional conversations. That is a good plan. I just have to practice the tools and stick to my guns that I won't get dragged into a conversation that is touchy.

I still feel that I need a "dose" of her. I still love her and wish things had gone differently. I look at her sometimes and see the woman that I fell in love with and I miss her. My ability to see her as part good and part bad and actually bifurcate those parts is what is giving me great anxiety and is really no different that what I have been trying to do in the relationship to cope. But it is also confusing. I feel confused even trying to express my confusion. I mean, on one hand I view her as this very disordered angry person that even scares me but has hurt me so badly and my brain tells me to divorce and never look back. When I see her soft side, hold her in my arms, watch her smile and laugh I can't let her go. My heart melts and wants her still. Either way I view her I still love her and maybe that is just how it is for those here that have had to let the relationship go.

[michel71]

Hello all. Query for you. When my uBPDw found out that I had reached out to others for support due to the chaotic and crisis filled problems in our marriage, she accused me of leading a separate life. By that she meant that I was consulting with others, processing a range of emotions, figuring out a game plan, coming to conclusions that were not discussed with her. Point in fact: How could I? She raged when I did and I ended up apologizing for God knows what. Well, we all know what that looks like.

It got me to thinking though. I did live two separate lives.

The one at home was insanity with almost daily circular, go nowhere arguments, where my feelings and opinions were twisted around or did not matter, where I was gaslit regularly and didn't even know who I was or if I was a good person anymore. I was in a constant state of hyper vigilance never knowing when the next disagreement would occur, never knowing what I would say that would start something off. That life was one where I loved my wife "even though" but my confusion about her mistreatment permeated all aspects of our relationship. My heart was breaking with every unkind word and broken promise. Trust was gone and I lived in fear. I became a shell of myself.

The other life was outside of the house, one filled with success and stability and included my job and close, dependable friends. In this world people knew me for my true self, who I really was, a basically good person who was loyal, fair, kind and generous. A person with integrity. A person that had value, both as an employee and a friend. A trusted advisor. A problem solver and take charge person. Because of my "other life" I took solace in the counsel of close friends as I went to them to get affirmation that I was not all the things that my uBPDw said I was. I might have "over-shared", perhaps being too judgmental or critical of my wife ( I was super angry at her for the mistreatment), but I reached out for support because I literally felt like I was losing my mind. Yes, I had a therapist but the weekly visit was not enough. I went to sleep with anxiety attacks, woke up with them and spend most of the day in total confusion. I was trying to stay grounded. This "life" kept me grounded. IT actually saved my life really as I considered suicide more than a few times.

So I am being "punished" by my wife for having these two separate lives. Vilified. She even called me a liar in that I would say one thing to my friends but tell her I loved her. ( Never mind how many times I tried to bring up the same issues with my wife and was shut down or an argument started).Note that I always told my friends that I loved my wife and still do tell them that. My wife violated my privacy twice, getting into my emails and reading them. These emails and thoughts were private. She was more devastated not by what was said but by to whom. She said I made her out to be a monster. And yes she unfortunately read that I think that she has BPD or NP. Of course I regret that she read these emails. I never meant for her to see them. And I am sorry that it hurt her.

Your thoughts please. Thanks!

[Meili]

Yes, I experienced similar things.

In my case, the comments that my ex made along those lines appear to have been an effort to isolate me from others. She did not want me have support. I'm certain that she was afraid that I would realize just how toxic our relationship had become and that I would abandon her as a result.

I also strongly believe that, because we share many friends, she didn't want them to know who she really is. At some point, she even tried to dictate with whom I could and could not be friends.

For a while, I was, as you put it, living two separate lives.

Then I started to enforce my boundaries. I decided that she was no longer allowed to determine with whom I spoke or about what. I stopped trying to control the situation and her emotions by walking on eggshells and worrying about what she might think or how she might respond. In short, I took my power back.

[Grey Kitty]

So I am being "punished" by my wife for having these two separate lives. Vilified.

Nope. Nuh-Uh. Don't believe it.

You are being "punished" by your wife because she's angry, because she painted you black, because she's mentally ill.

HOW your wife is punishing you involves those accusations right now. She's thrown other things at you before, and will (assuming you maintain some contact) throw other things at you later. Or more of this one. But don't confuse the words of rage she spews at you with the reason she is raging. Especially when she tells you the reasons.


Back to having separate lives... .it is normal and healthy for people to compartmentalize parts of their lives to some degree or other. Your family isn't involved with your coworkers. Your fishing buddies may not be much involved with either. Etc.

It is also healthy to have some level of privacy, even from your wife. (Even if your BPDw disagrees) I'd put issues you keep private from her in three boxes:

1. Things that simply don't involve her, mostly ones that aren't that important. Minutia at work. They just aren't relevant, and you have no reason to share them, but also no reason to hide them. 

2. Working out your side of your marriage. Talking to a trusted few people about problems with your wife, trying to figure out how to handle them better, or make difficult choices. There is some risk of triangulation here, which gets unhealthy, but getting outside perspective is good for you and your marriage. FYI, most people w/o a mental health background lack the tools to support you in a marriage to a pwBPD, so treading carefully there is a good idea. 'Tho hopefully your next romantic r/s someday later will not involve a pwBPD, but it will still have issues you can use support with.

For that matter, planning a surprise birthday party fits in this category!

3. What I call secrecy, instead of privacy--things you are hiding from your wife that are her business. If you have a mistress. Or are on a dating site. Or are gambling with joint life's savings.

These are things where holding them back is deception and is betrayal. What is tricky for you is that your BPDw is taking things in the first two categories and emotionally attacking you over them like they are in the third.

You have to figure out the boundaries for yourself and stay within them. Most of us have done pretty well, although slipping into a bit of unhealthy triangulation from #2 is easy to do. I'm pretty sure I've done it myself.

[ACObound]

The two separate lives that you spoke about was near exactly what I am experiencing. My 2nd life has relocated with new acquaintances and experiences and a lot of success professionally.  So I think your analysis is right on and sometimes at a quieter more reflective time... .I amaze myself that I hung in there where people I have reached out and shared with can't believe it.   I still  say and believe, I love my wife, but I do hate the mental illness.

[Grey Kitty]

$.02 here:

The "tool" you want to use in the situation you initially described is boundary enforcement, removing yourself from the stream of abuse.

Unfortunately, that is hard to do when you are in a car with somebody, ESPECIALLY if they are driving.

My suggestion is that you not drive places together with her, and if you do, you drive.

At least if you are driving have the option of pulling over and stating that you won't drive any further while she is arguing/yelling/verbally abusing/whatever words you use to describe it which are least likely to set her off further. Stopped, you can ask her to get out of the car, or you can get out yourself.

Anyhow, remember that... .and I'm glad things are a bit better as of now

[michel71]

Yes I am reading CODEPENDENT NO MORE. A great book. This is about my third read. Thank you all for your comments. I will practice the tools. Boundary enforcement. I haven't had much success at all with the tools. Maybe its me. Maybe its her. I dunno.

[michel71]

Thank you all for your comments.

I think it comes down to boundaries. And my uBPDw has "brainwashed" me to some degree getting me to question myself with accusations that I have "emotionally cheated", "betrayal", "deception", "liar" for reaching out to trusted few friends about my marriage problems.

We are seeing a therapist. He is a pretty no-nonsence guy. Super structured style. Does not let us waffle on. Calls us on our stuff. We have only had one session but this is what I get from him so far. He is also the first male that we have seen. We saw a few female therapists before but we only went a few times to each for one reason or another. Anyway, my point is that I wonder how he will see this. My uBPDw can be very articulate and convincing.

My own therapist ( and my trusted few friends) say I have nothing to feel guilty about. I spewed a lot. I did. "Venom" according to my uBPDw but understand that she was never supposed to read those PRIVATE emails anyway. I can best explain it as something like cathartic release of anger. I also felt so much in crisis all the time ( I can't say this enough and I am sure many of us can relate to this) that I literally wanted to talk about it all the time. I needed constant validation from others because I didn't trust my own judgement anymore and thought that I was losing my f'ing mind.

You know, if I treated my wife like she treated me I would certainly expect her to reach out to others. I think that is NORMAL when one feels oppressed and cannot go to their own spouse because they rage.

My wife is very private by nature, but yeah, she might be controlling too and trying to alienate me from support so people don't know her dirty little secrets. Control. Abusive.

I know this intellectually but she is making me second guess myself. And feel bad. And feel disloyal and horrible. Especially since she has taken off her ring because of it.

[ACObound]

I suspect this offers little comfort and I am sure you have heard this before reading posts.  Your story is exactly mine.  I could have written every line of every sentence of your last post,,,word for word.  I understand you second guessing yourself... .been doing it for A LOT of years.  It is so hard.   You will quit second guessing yourself.   The emails were a private conversation,,,you're an adult, and can have them.  My uBPDw has and continues to try to dictate my every word, esp to my adult children.  You can and will get to the other side... .because you have to,,,other people need you. 

[Cipher13]

I can also attest to the who second guessing myself and also to the second life. So eerie yet oddly comforting to know I am not alone feeling this way. My second life is not elaborate in any way. It only consist of work. I have 2 people that I share some things with but I hold back a lot of specifics as I still get as much privacy as I can. I still honor as much of my marriage as I can and only share what seems relevant.

But I want to take a second to address the second guessing. I am strong in my convictions that I know when I am being manipulated and talk down to. Yet I do not put up any boundaries to protect myself from it. I know its happening yet am helpless to do anything about it. The closest thing I can relate it to is like Stockholm syndrome. Or like it anyway. I have been isolated from family so there is no support there. I have been isolated from friends and again so there is no support there. Now I honestly thing she is doing the same for her family and isolating us from them because they see me as a nice honest and well meaningful guy. She has said many times that I have everyone fooled and if they only knew what she knows about me. So after 16 years of that even though I can identify it I do not do anything to help myself. So if you have friends and family still I say hang on to them for dear life.

[Grey Kitty]

So after 16 years of that even though I can identify it I do not do anything to help myself. So if you have friends and family still I say hang on to them for dear life.

Hey, if you didn't hold on, do the next best thing: Take a stand and re-connect with them.

Then hang on for dear life.

What is really stopping you besides fear of your wife... .continuing to do what she's already doing!

[SamwizeGamgee]

Double life is a good description.
I kept everything inside me for a long time - the confusion, the self-doubt.  I did what many people did. I believed my wife and accepted her reality.  I broke out of that about two years ago. That's when my second life really started.  I talked to someone at work about how bad marriage was.  I started to research divorce.  The first time I intentionally willingly lied to my wife was when I was covering for me to go see a therapist.  Then misinformation to cover my visits as I started interviewing family-law lawyers.  Then a separate bank account to preserve money in case of emergency and to pay legal fees eventually.  The second life I lead is the one as the prisoner quietly digging under the fence - while maintaining good relations with the warden.

[Meili]

I was going to ask pretty much the same thing that GK asked, except about boundaries. The only thing that seems to stop any of us from defining and maintaining boundaries is the fear of our pwBPD acting the way that they are already acting. I know that definitely was my problem!

Admitting to myself that was what was happening was really difficult to me. It forced me to look at what I was actually aware of. As it turns out, I was afraid of losing the person that was abusive to me. I'd rather have had the pain and damage of the abuse than run the risk of losing the person who caused the pain and damage. It was an extremely unhealthy thought process.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'll follow melli and say that this makes me stop and think.  I'm going to work on a reality check.  When my wife is around, I act differently, talk differently, even breathe differently  (my wife had an episode a while back and we figured out that she got afraid that I was angry when I breathe in deeply, but, that was my natural baseline).  Yeesh!  I do live a double life!

[Cat Familiar]

Add me to the list. Our interests and activities seldom coincide. I'm outdoors, enjoying the ranch, spending time with horses, goats, sheep, and a donkey. Also I have some really nice friends who share my interests and he doesn't have friends, merely acquaintances.

He spends most of his time indoors reading or watching TV. All f*ing day long! No wonder he's bored and depressed.

[empath]

Yes. I just don't think it is a bad thing. Seriously, the BPD world has shifting sands (maybe even quicksand) and a person has a difficult time knowing which end is up.

I have created a lot more separation in the past couple of years from my pwBPD which has helped me know what 'normal' relationships are like and helps me know who I really am in the midst of BPD invalidation and twisting.

I realized that the best times for me were when I had a good bit of separation from my pwBPD; I can be me and develop myself. My pw really dislikes the idea of separation (he admits he is enmeshed as well... .). He is tolerant at this point because some of the separation is due to outside authorities.

Healthy normalish people have interests outside of their primary relationships.

[michel71]

My uBPDw had gotten upset because I refused to tell my new roommate (upon first meeting) that I was married and going through a separation. She thought that was really "poopie" of me ( you know the word), never mind that she doesn't wear her ring anymore, changed her Facebook name to her FORMER married name, has no pictures of me or us in her new place... .basically cut me out of her life. And she also tore up our wedding photos before she left.

Let me make this clear. I did not NOT tell the new roommate because I wanted to get back at her for cutting me out of her life. I did it because the last thing I want is for a new roommate to re-think living with me because I am going through a separation which necessarily carries some reasonable risk for unpleasantries. I mean, can you imagine the convo... ." oh hi new roommate... .uhh... .glad you like the house and want to rent a room from me ... .and I just want to tell you that I have a wife and we are separated... .this is really a happy home and this is a great place to live."

I had to call her about something  and she took the opportunity to lash out at me about not telling the roommate . She prefaced it by all kinds of snippy and back handed statements like " obviously you don't care anymore"... ."and I guess I know where this is leading so it won't matter anyway... .bla bla... ."  Then went full throttle.

I told her I prefer to discuss this in counseling. She then said " I don't care if you want to hear me or not, I am going to tell you how I feel"... .then went on... .bla bla for about 20 seconds. I interrupted and said "you are not going to berate me, if I decide to tell the roommate I will but that is my decision and you have a lot of nerve considering you have cut me out of your life (x, y and z ways) so no, you don't get to tell me what to ... .

... .AND SHE HUNG UP.

I was working on establishing a boundary today. I also stuck up for myself but not in a vicious way, just firm. I refused to let her go on and on. In the past I have let her "vent" which means spew venom and twist things around. At that point, forget about trying to validate because she is on a roll and her head is spinning off her shoulders.

I did text her after saying that I am willing to talk when she calms down but I would prefer we do it in counseling. I also repeated that I will not let her berate me.

Any suggestions for how I could have handled this better? Also feel free anybody to still weigh in on your stories of double standards. Might end up being a good RANT post.

[Skip]

Also feel free anybody to still weigh in on your stories of double standards. Might end up being a good RANT post.

No group rants, please. We're here to heal, not share "who caught the biggest fish". If you're in counseling with your partner, it's not healthy to create drama triangles with members of the detaching board - seeking validation for your side of the argument.


https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

A surefire way to fail in therapy is to want to be heard more than your want to listen or to want to be right/vindicated more than you want to listen.

She is most likely going to therapy to be heard. A therapist can help her see what she is saying (you can now drop out of that role).

She won't listen to what you have to say until she is fully heard.

Today things are a bit better. I reached out to apologize for my part in making it worse. I listened to her a bit ( she wasn't on a rant so it was okay), tried to validate, listen with empathy. She is hurt and devastated by the emails she found that I wrote to a friend where I called her a BPD, Narcissist, among other things. I have posted about that before. My therapist and friends say to let it go. Of course I cannot do that really when she is bringing it up still. And of course I start to feel terrible about it again.

Some will say she might never listen, but I suspect this model (listening to her first in therapy) is the best you can hope for.

If you are thinking you are going to therapy to a battle her on recent arguments and a therapist is going to referee and you are going to win... .save your money. It's possible a therapists will side with you, but she'll close and that will be the end of it. It can be about winning - it has to be about working it out.

Remember, she is the one with the illness, right?

[michel71]

Skip... .I don't know where to post because I am in DETACHING mode now.  So go ahead and move it.

Rant/vent/share/weigh in. Isn't it a matter of degrees? Isn't this a place where we can come to be heard and responded to.

Drama triangle? HUH? Seriously? I think every thread has the potential for that.

I came here for some comfort today and you sure as heck didn't give me any skip.

[Skip]

Drama triangle? HUH? Seriously? I think every thread has the potential for that.

Not like this. Detaching board members aren't going to therapy with their partner.

I'm sorry I'm being invalidating. I don't want to validate things that are going to harm you. You seem to be on a self-sabatoging path. Do you want to know if we see that? Or would you rather, I just agree that your side of this really minor argument, is the right side - you are the winner?

Are you trying to reconcile or exit? It's very confusing. You are hopping boards, saying you love her, but then that she is a supernatural being who possess your power, and then you are in therapy with her.

What are you trying to do?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey michel71, In my view, its normal to reach out to others in order to keep things in perspective, particularly in a BPD r/s, so don't beat yourself up.  A BPD r/s, needless to say, can be incredibly isolating, in part because of the pwBPD's fear of abandonment, but also because BPD is something outside the experience of most folks.  My BPDxW made it extremely difficult for me to stay in contact w/friends and family, to the point that I started to forget who I was, which was not fun, believe me.  So, my advice is to foster those lifelines to the outside world and employ whatever boundaries you need in order to keep the lines of communication open.  You haven't done anything wrong so don't take on the blame.  As I like to say, poison is harmless if you don't ingest it.  You can quote me!

LuckyJim

[michel71]

I don't see a way forward. I thought I might by going to counseling with my uBPDw, thus I have previously posted on the undecided board, but nope. And I kind of knew it. My initial reason for going to counseling was to see if we could communicate better as I pretty much figured we were heading for divorce and I could use that as a safe place to discuss terms.
Yes, a part of me was hoping for some sort of breakthrough on her part to finally be able to empathize. Or that there might be some miracle and she could prove me wrong and NOT have BPD.

We had a phone conversation that went South today. Ended by her hanging up on me. Then a text from her saying that she is going to pick up the rest of her things, leave me the key and never come to the house again. I followed with a text simply asking if she was going to meet me at counseling this week. Haven't heard back. If the answer is no I think I have just found myself a great new therapist. He has only seen us as a couple once so he might likely see me individually.

For the past week or so I have been feeling like talking to her and seeing her on any level feels empty and actually makes me feel worse because it is so obvious how our relationship has disintegrated.

I just feel really upset and I am tired of her venom.

[michel71]

At a minimum and at least my impetus for going to couple's counseling was to try and communicate better especially if divorce is in our future. And it always looked pretty much like that if I am honest.

Would I have loved a miracle to happen and there might have been a break-through? Sure. Because I do still love her. I might always love her but that doesn't mean that she is healthy for me. Love is not enough. It is not worth my health and an early death depriving the others I love and who love me and want me with them on this earth.

Yeah. I have been a bit all over. Regressing a bit. Then moving forward a bit. If you want me to keep posting on the undecided board I will. I have no problem with that. Or if you want me to post somewhere else too.

I have been desperately wanting out of this relationship for awhile now but didn't have the guts and also because I still love her. My soul is screaming at me to end this. Now that she has moved out and i am getting physical distance from her I am seeing things a bit more clearly. I have a ways to go I know.

[michel71]

Hi all. I just had a telephone argument with my uBPDw resulting in her hanging up on me. If you read my other posts you know we are separated but see each other a few times per week and talk occasionally.

Things got heated. I posted about this in another thread I started.

Basically I would like to know what everybody does to calm down after a dysregulation. I am sitting her red faced ( blood pressure up no doubt) and kinda fuming. I am trying to return to baseline. I mean I don't even live with her anymore and she can really get to me!

UGH.

[ortac77]

It seems that a BPD sufferer, in my experience, cannot deal well with the 'non' having a life of their own. My own co-dependency got me enmeshed and apart from work left me very isolated and alone for quite some time.I have had to do a lot of work on myself to change things.

I eventually twigged that being alone from choice is an OK behaviour - I can enjoy my independence, but isolating from friends and families was really not OK and I am staring to reconnect and to pursue my own interests and hobbies again.

My partner does nothing for himself but very much resents my involvement with others, I have really started to notice this now and accompanied by setting much clearer boundaries have seen his behaviour getting increasingly more extreme.

So be it, whilst I accept that he is ill, making me ill will not help him. If i get better maybe he will but that is not within my power.

[Reforming]

Hi Michel,

I'm sorry that you're going through a very tough time right now. I can appreciate that your wife's behaviour feels invalidating, hurtful and contradictory.

The last one can be particularly difficult to handle. Her actions suggest that she has discarded you, but she reproaches you for denying your relationship. I experienced a similar dynamic in my relationship, a lot of us have and it was very hard to stay centred and not react in a way that escalated conflict and made things worse

I can understand your reasons for not telling your flatmate and to some extent your relationship status is your own business. I can also see how someone suffering from BPD might interpret that as abandonment and rejection even though they seem to be doing the rejecting themselves.

I know this feels totally confusing and contradictory given her own actions but we're talking about a disorder that's marked by profound fear of abandonment, hypersensitivity to rejection and impulsivity.

You don't have to accept your wife's behaviour or stay in the relationship. You have the right to walk away and begin a new life. It's a personal choice that only you can make and we will try and support you whatever you choose to do.

If you do want to try and find a way forward with her than you'll need to learn new ways of managing your interaction. I'm not suggesting this course is easy or even appealing right now.  When we feel wronged and hurt it can feel very invalidating to be told that we need to change too. But most of the time it's the best way to improve a difficult situation.

You asked whether there was any you could have handled your most recent argument differently... . 

I understand why your wife's reproaches felt completely invalidating but perhaps you could have validated her feelings by saying something along the lines of "I understand that you feel hurt that I didn't acknowledge our relationship... ." This doesn't mean you're agreeing with her conclusions but it might help her feel heard, which is a great way to defuse conflict and build trust.

I realise that this isn't easy, especially when you've been triggered and your emotions feel overwhelming but with effort and practice it can be learned.

If you really want make progress in couples therapy both partners need to be willing to change their behaviour. This is true whether there's a PD involved or not.

We're here for you whatever you choose

Good luck

Reforming

[Skip]

From 2014... .

After one of our recent blow-outs (and it has been nothing but fighting since the honeymoon, only unlike most of you, I pay thousands of dollars and fly over 10,000 round trip miles to do it), I told her that if she does not agree to go to counseling when she gets here, that there is no point continuing our relationship. And I meant it. And I still mean it. Only now, I am less hopeful that even therapy will work.

From 2017... .

I don't see a way forward. I thought I might by going to counseling with my uBPDw, thus I have previously posted on the undecided board, but nope. And I kind of knew it. My initial reason for going to counseling was to see if we could communicate better as I pretty much figured we were heading for divorce and I could use that as a safe place to discuss terms.

Today things are a bit better. I reached out to apologize for my part in making it worse. I listened to her a bit ( she wasn't on a rant so it was okay), tried to validate, listen with empathy. She is hurt and devastated by the emails she found that I wrote to a friend where I called her a BPD, Narcissist, among other things. I have posted about that before. My therapist and friends say to let it go. Of course I cannot do that really when she is bringing it up still. And of course I start to feel terrible about it again.

Do you think you are working at cross purposes (self defeating) your own objectives?

The threat of divorce has been looming in his relationship for a long time. That takes a toll.

Currently you are seeking better communication for the either the purpose of fixing the relationship (which you are not sure is possible) or negotiating the financial terms of a divorce (a little unconventional), and you can't let go of the fights, despite advice from everyone in your support network to let go of them.

Let me make this clear. I did not NOT tell the new roommate because I wanted to get back at her for cutting me out of her life.

See my point?  If you're trying to recover the relationship, don't have that hopeful "I'm ready to listen, what will it take" attitude. If you're trying to establish a constructive mediation, you don't have that "let's not quibble over things that aren't important, attitude.

[michel71]

thank you Ortac and Reforming. WOW. SKIP... .looking back at the 2014 post was eerie and also enlightening as to how seriously my sanity has been lost since then. I have flipped back and forth. Yes, I cannot seem to let go of the arguments. We have main themes. Really seriously hurtful main themes of betrayal and mistrust. I don't know that I can ever get past it. I feel that the relationship has been damaged beyond repair, save a miracle. My head is so screwed up, I feel traumatized still. The first step for me and it was a big one was having her move out. HUGE. Perhaps I just need to sit with that for a while, gain strength and build up those emotional reserves, have more personal therapy and then... .do what I need to do.
Thank you all again.