Suicide watch and projection

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

There's an important post earlier "take yourself seriously" that I didn't want to hijack with my comments.  But, it brought up some key words and ideas.
I remember back to when I was seeing a T and the DV shelter in town.  I remember being very concerned that, perhaps, my wife will finally slip into her darkness and take her life and/or the kids'.  :)riving the van off a bridge came to mind.  It seemed like a very real risk, but, not something I could articulate officially.  I am still concerned.

I believe in hunches though, and the idea still haunts me.  Even as of last night, my uBPDw talked about how she has to walk on eggshells, is depressed, is so close to edge, and has nothing left, and so forth.  I know these are all feelings that are real to her.  These are feelings we should watch for in ourselves to remember to reach for help in preventing our own suicide.  However, I really don't think I'm the abuser, nor do I cause her to walk on eggshells, etc.  If it's possible, I think she's sort of projecting the symptoms, or displacing them, or something.   I've provided her with helpline numbers, EAP counselor numbers.  And I generally have been as good as I can muster around her by being supportive and empathetic - which is never enough for her needs apparently.  A lot of this stems from boundaries.  I have to let her solve her own problems.  She is very much a mix of waif and hermit type, with some witch mixed in.  I can understand how dark, lonely, and scary life looks to her - especially with a husband who is changing, and keeping good boundaries, and getting better all around (read: not being a caretaker).  

I think she's quoting me about walking on eggshells and feeling so forlorn.  Those are feelings I expressed to her a year or so ago.  It's as though she can't articulate negative feelings without quoting something.  I know I am not responsible for her mindset, and as an adult she's go to make her own decisions and life choices.  But, this is a concern I have. What to do?  

[SamwizeGamgee]

There's an important post earlier "take yourself seriously" that I didn't want to hijack with my comments.  But, it brought up some key words and ideas.
I remember back to when I was seeing a T and the DV shelter in town.  I remember being very concerned that, perhaps, my wife will finally slip into her darkness and take her life and/or the kids'.  :)riving the van off a bridge came to mind.  It seemed like a very real risk, but, not something I could articulate officially.  I am still concerned.

I believe in hunches though, and the idea still haunts me.  Even as of last night, my uBPDw talked about how she has to walk on eggshells, is depressed, is so close to edge, and has nothing left, and so forth.  I know these are all feelings that are real to her.  These are feelings we should watch for in ourselves to remember to reach for help in preventing our own suicide.  However, I really don't think I'm the abuser, nor do I cause her to walk on eggshells, etc.  If it's possible, I think she's sort of projecting the symptoms, or displacing them, or something.   I've provided her with helpline numbers, EAP counselor numbers.  And I generally have been as good as I can muster around her by being supportive and empathetic - which is never enough for her needs apparently.  A lot of this stems from boundaries.  I have to let her solve her own problems.  She is very much a mix of waif and hermit type, with some witch mixed in.  I can understand how dark, lonely, and scary life looks to her - especially with a husband who is changing, and keeping good boundaries, and getting better all around (read: not being a caretaker).  

I think she's quoting me about walking on eggshells and feeling so forlorn.  Those are feelings I expressed to her a year or so ago.  It's as though she can't articulate negative feelings without quoting something.  I know I am not responsible for her mindset, and as an adult she's go to make her own decisions and life choices.  But, this is a concern I have. What to do?  

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Samwize, It's one thing to have compassion; it's another thing to be a caretaker.  The former is a good thing and shows your kindness; the latter is a symptom of codependency, which to your credit you seem to be avoiding or minimizing.  The risk that you describe is one that I faced regularly because my BPDxW threatened suicide at least 10 times, and each time it scared the wits out of me.  I tried different approaches that I won't go into here.  The bottom line, in my view, is that at the end of the day you can't prevent someone from carrying it out if they are determined to do it.  Here is where the Serenity Prayer comes in.  Some things are beyond one's power to change or control, which we have to accept.  Does this make sense?

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

I understand, and agree with what you are saying. I've gotten wiser - and the Serenity Prayer is truly inspiring.  Ironically, I feel much more powerful when I don't do some things.
 
I used to be so persuaded by my wife's presence and accusations.  Last year I would have been plunged into a giant mess when my wife tells me how much she has to walk on eggshells around me, and how invalidating and bad I am, and how she was happy, healthy, pious, virtuous, and innocent before we got married.  She believes that I wrecked her life and caused all the darkness she lives in.  I would have taken full responsibility for her dark state of mind today. 

Fortunately, I've got a more fact-based perspective.  Not being a caretaker was a major hurdle, but, one I have mostly cleared.  Not that I don't have twinges of guilt when she puts on the manipulation, but, I can see it for what it is. 

My concern most of all is for the kids.  I really pray and hope they stay safe during this time in life. 

[Grey Kitty]

You do sound legitimately worried.

Has she spoken about suicide to you, especially recently?

Does she have a history of suicide attempts?

Note that self-harm, like cutting or hitting her head on something isn't the same thing. Not that it is a healthy coping mechanism, just that it is a different one, and that the difference is worth being aware of.

Keep in mind that if you have concerns about suicide (especially in a way that risks your children), you don't have to deal with it on your own. YOU can call a suicide hotline if you are concerned about what she might do--they are trained both to talk to people who are suicidal and to support people who are with the suicidal person. If your concerns are more immediate, you can call 911 instead.

[SamwizeGamgee]

She has said in the past, that she thinks everyone will be better off if she was dead.  She has not threatened suicide in those words, and avoids the appearance of it.  That's actually one serious concern that I have. She is distinctly not using it as a threat to manipulate or get attention.  Since she's alone with my kids, I felt I needed to investigate.  I did look at private writings she kept.  They did talk about god wanting her to suffer like this, and wishing she was gone or dead.  Recently she was in the midst of a small breakdown and told me she was so close to edge and I didn't know how close.  And she has nothing else left. 

Then, next day she's acting fine, of course.

I was worried enough in the past, for my own safety as well as hers, that I got in the habit of counting the kitchen knives every time I came home.  I dutifully lock up all weapons, and have exclusive access.

[Grey Kitty]

Is this level of suicidal thoughts or thinking it would be better for everybody else if she was dead a new thing for her? Or is it new for her to share this with you?

Have you read our guidelines on how to best prevent suicide?
https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info3.htm
Half-way down is more detail about helping somebody else who has suicidal thoughts.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Early last year was the first time I recall having heard this kind of talk from her.  I know it rocked my boat quite a bit as it stood out so drastically from her 'normal' tantrums and rages.

[teapay]

I went through a long spell where my W was suicidal and made attempts that landed her into intensive care and the hospital for awhile.  She began the suicidal stuff after I began confronting and establishing boundaries on various other bad behaviors, which began taking away some of her dysfunctional coping mechanisms.  I had to develop a suicide plan and went so far as looking into funeral homes and cemetery plots just in case.  I also had to develop boundaries for that type behavior too and I won’t go through it again.  For example, I won’t remain in the marriage and will dissolve the family if my W isn’t in treatment and is acting out.  If she is in treatment and making even small profress I can tolerate alittle more behavioral challenges.   Also, I won’t stay in the marriage if she starts going through the suicidal stuff again for long.  It is not good for me or the kids or her.  It needs to be addressed or good luck to her.  Other boundaries include if she is talking or alluding suicidal I encourage her to go call someone or go to the ER.  If she doesn’t and keeps it up I call EMS.  It’s reflexive now and she knows it.  What she does with that is on her, but this is what I have to do because I have five kids in the house and they can’t be going through it perpetually.  The silver lining to all of it has been that my W did get a BPD dx, did get into treatment and on meds, did go through various therapies including DBT and is doing somewhat better in some critical areas.  The home environment is better for our kids too.  There is much more work to do.  This could be an opportunity for you. 

Over the years I’ve come to believe, like most other goals/problems in life, that steady gradual confronting of the BPD month by month is the best pathway and to not put that off for too long.  It’s better not to walk on eggshells, but move my life in the direction I know it should go and let things play out however they will.   Codependency does the Non a lot of harm with confusion and fear, but it also does the BPD more harm than good by keeping them perpetually dysfunctional and lacking important living skills.   While I value peace, I’ve come to value what is healthy more, because without the healthy part, the peace is pretty fleeting.

[Notwendy]

Teapay- I have thought some of your posts were a bit harsh ( although I have erred to the pushover side) but I have to hand it to you on this one. Dealing with suicide threats/attempts is a serious and difficult situation, one I thankfully do not face in my marriage but did with my BPD mother. I can see where your unwavering boundaries makes sense, even though as a wife I wouldn't want that level of strictness. However, I don't need it. I have self control.

Reading these posts have helped me to understand what my father must have dealt with. Surely he was scared to pieces. As children, we didn't have full awareness of what was going on. My earliest memory of a suicide attempt is very blurry. There was commotion in the house, then we kids were sent off to stay with relatives for a while, son't know how long. When we came back, it was as if nothing happened, not a word.

As teens though, sometimes if we were alone with her in the house, she'd threaten to harm herself. It feels like a no win situation. If we act on fear, give in, walk on eggshells, then we reinforce it. There were a few dramatic threats in front of me that I knew were attention getting. A sibling found her home alone having injured herself once and had to call 911.

My mother is now an elderly widow, living alone, with household help. We sibs discussed our fear of her doing this, or threatening this. None of us are willing to move in with her and watch her 24/7 and we also don't want to be manipulated. We don't live close enough to intervene if we could. So we decided that calling 911 is our best option if she threatens. She thankfully hasn't made that threat.

We sincerely do not want her to be hurt or harm herself. We aren't inhumane. We just really don't have any control over her actions unless we watch her 24/7. We don't want to do that. We have jobs, our own families.

I realize for my father, this must have been between a rock and a hard place. Potential harm to the children is another concern. I don't recall being left alone with her much as a child.  As a teen, I could fend for myself. It's a horrible fear to think that in a suicide attempt- the parent would take the children as well. If that is a possibility, I would consider taking legal action.

I agree with you that co-dependency doesn't do the non any good, nor does it do the pwBPD good in the long run. I also see that both situations do occur on a spectrum. Not all cases of BPD include suicide attempts. I believe that this contributed to my father's fears of standing up to my mother. I don't blame him - it's tough. But I agree it may have calmed things down in the moment, but didn't lead to long term behavior changes.

[formflier]

It sounds as if your wife isn't "threatening" suicide... but "alluding" to it?  Would you say that is accurate?

I'v never had to deal with this in my r/s.  I would guess this is coming from the same place as suicide threats... .but a bit of a different flavor.

I think that you hit on it in your original post... ."you have to let her solve her own problems"... .

I would encourage you to up your game in "empathy"... .and dial back your game in problem solving.  Perhaps clarify exactly what she believes you can help her with.

How long has this been going on?  How many times?  Perhaps I missed this in the thread, I'm still trying to put this in context of the larger r/s.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you to all for the comments.
Teapay - I have lines similar to yours.  If she crosses into making threats of suicide - it's a call to 911, and I take the kids somewhere else if needed.  It's cold to say this, but, I don't feel obligated by love to stand by her. 
Notwendy - that must have been very scary as a kid to have that much uncertainty.  Hearing your experience encourages me to see it carefully from my kids point of view. At present, the kids have seen mom's tantrums, and all been scared when she takes off. But, she's been functional and putting on a good act for a long while.  In general, I hope that kids have an internal goodness that lets them rise above problems stemming from their parents (myself included).
Formflier - I never felt that she was threatening suicide. Maybe alluding to it.  But, she clearly has thought about it, and at a time saw everyone else as better off without her.  The part about God wanting her to suffer and be alone is along the same lines.  It really emerged when I started to get myself healthy.  Meaning, I found out about BPD and got to work on me (stop caretaking, boundaries, etc).  It does look like depression was a factor in the past.   I try empathy, and nothing is ever enough to fill the void, but, I keep adding validation for good behavior, and restating to understand her feelings, and so forth. 

[formflier]

 
What are you plans going forward.  Are you going to increase your response to "alluding" to suicide? 


Maybe back up a second or two.

How many times (best guess) has she alluded to this?  Over what period of time.

Are there times when you felt she was "serious" and it was closer to a threat?

On the one hand, we know that we all say things "in the moment" that are not expressed clearly... ."oh... I'm so dead... .and better off for it... ." or things like that can be said in an exasperated way and likely not mean much.  Or, they can be said in a serious way or "threatening" way... .and perhaps mean much more.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband used to allude to suicide on an infrequent basis with comments like "you'd be better off without me," "I'm just taking up space," "I'm a waste of oxygen," etc. I tried to reassure him that he was important and I valued him.

It wasn't until I broke up with him, yet we hadn't disentangled our lives and finances, that I began to believe that he might actually take his life. I had flown hundreds of miles to be with my father before he passed away. The day after he died, my soon to be ex-husband demanded that I return home immediately because he was going to kill himself.

My father hadn't even been buried yet, but I had made the funeral arrangements since my BPD mother was in no condition to make any decisions. I told my husband that I was not going to return home, called one of his friends and told him about the suicide threats and his friend promised to talk with him. Then I called a suicide hotline.

When he called again, I was told to ask him in detail what he planned to do. Having just made funeral arrangements, I asked questions like if he wanted to be buried or cremated. And if he wanted his mother and sisters to see his body, he'd have to be embalmed, since they lived quite a distance away and he wouldn't be too presentable after a few days. I had many questions to ask and I think by my confronting the reality of the situation in a direct, non-emotional way, it was so unfulfilling to him that he never mentioned it again to me.

It took almost two years to divorce, and he never again threatened suicide in that time. However, a few years later his new girlfriend told me that he was holding her hostage with suicide threats. Obviously he had learned that he got the attention he wanted by using this fear as a manipulation.

[Lucky Jim]

a few years later his new girlfriend told me that he was holding her hostage with suicide threats. Obviously he had learned that he got the attention he wanted by using this fear as a manipulation.

Cat Familiar: Agree, it's the ultimate manipulation.  Usually, the pwBPD is just crying wolf for attention.  Yet there's a slim percentage of folks who carry out the threat, which was always present in the back of my mind and caused me a tremendous amount of anxiety and helplessness.

LuckyJim

[teapay]

Sam, the boundaries you have in place are good, especially in time of crisis.  You won’t have to think and can just do it. Even though your W is not threatening suicide, is there a reason you are not confronting her about it?  I’m assuming it is serious enough in your mind since you posted on it.  It is not a healthy thing to have in a family and brings serious uncertainties with it even if the kids are not fully aware.  They’ll just get blindsided by it even though you may be wiser.
 
Accepting untreated mental illness in a household is a boundary, kind of like how choosing not to decide or to do nothing is still a choice.  Not knowing it at the time, I lived that way, but I wasn’t working so well for anyone in the family and probably never would.  After learning about BPD and what was going on and how it was negatively effecting the members of the family I came to the belief that that “status quo” boundary was not acceptable to me and not a reasonable way for my household to operate.  By that I don’t mean mental illness in and of itself, but I do mean untreated or non-improving mental illness.

As I mentioned, this could be an opportunity for you even if your wife is not suicidal but is still clinically depressed, possibly in response to changes you have made to your own behavior.  It could be a chance for you to steer the direction of your family as a whole in a better direction or bring it to a head, so some important decisions regarding the family members can be made with clearer circumstances and a clear conscience.   I’ve found that that in shaping my future taking the initiative has been key, rather than playing defense.