Four way meeting went as might be expected

[takingandsending]

My STBxw, her attorney, me, my attorney and divorce coach had first meeting today.

Aside from a few sideswipes and swings at my deficiencies as a spouse, all went as well as could be expected until we discussed the tentative custody agreement we worked out just a week ago. As I had thought/feared/guessed, xw had not truly considered implication of a nesting arrangement being that she also would also need to move out of the house during non-custodial times. She resented my pressuring her to start this by February 1, 2017 (conveniently forgetting that she was the one pressuring me to set a date for being out of the house).

And she stated that she only agreed to 50/50 custody to be fair but, in honesty, has grave concerns about my ability as a parent to keep S5 and S11 regularly fed, clothed, clean, get enough sleep, have structure, develop life skills, make friends, do chores, learn discipline, learn time management, understand consequences for their actions, practice their musical instruments, and few others I can't remember. Mind you, this was all communicated to her attorney and divorce coach when my attorney and I had to leave the room because she was to afraid to describe her parenting goals because I am so horribly judgmental of her parenting skills!

My attorney was advising me in the other room that she was likely trashing me while we were out of the room and that the temporary custody agreement we had reached would likely take a big step back. Which is exactly what happened. I stuck to my guns, said I was not moving out to accommodate her frail sensibilities with no clear plan for parenting schedule set up.

Even knowing this would happen is no help. It's so infuriating, maybe more because it's so predictable. I know enough not to take it personally. What she says is truly meaningless. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I will get through this. Just wish the two households would happen sooner than later.

[livednlearned]

Our cases can feel like one step forward six steps back   but we do eventually move forward. It's good you are not taking it personally, though I know it's hard not to feel disappointed at the step back or lack of moving forward in a rational way.

Do you have to get a new lawyer should these preliminary meetings fail? I believe collaborative law arrangements can have some twists and turn depending on where you live.

[takingandsending]

Hi lnl.
If collaborative falls through, yes -would need to get new atty. On the plus side, my atty said that he, w's atty and divorce coach all have experience and success with collaborative divorce involving pwPD (including BPD). He spoke with coach and w's atty before meeting and told me that other two parties are aware of PD. So they are all dancing around to keep her validated. I didn't say much - stuck to BIFF with a little bit of validation. Bit my tongue when she said I was pressuring her into Feb 1st date to start custody schedule. Basically, her idea of how it should work is that I continue to pay all the bills, she lives in the house and because of my incompetence as a parent, only see the boys on the weekend and certain weeknights when she wants a break from the kids. Truly how she thinks. Then tells the group that she has been too accommodating - that's the fatal flaw in our marriage.

I am seeing my T on Sunday and have a friend helping me on Saturday with managing my emotions. Nobody should have to deal with this. I know my wife is sick, but sometimes it is more than I can take. I am at a point where it is so unhealthy for me to listen to her reality anymore. I am just done with it. Yet, I am not done with it just yet. Grrrrrr

[livednlearned]

That's a big plus that they have experience with BPD!

What happens next?

[takingandsending]

We head back to more mediation sessions with divorce coach to work out residential schedule and whether or not nesting will be viable and eventually meet with financial planner to work out short term finances.

I am not certain how to approach these meetings. I think I need to be more honest in what I think is being said versus obliquely pointing it out. The divorce coach kept asking me for a timetable on moving out. I reminded her that, if we are nesting, both parents are committing to finding alternative living arrangements. She did, last week begin to check in with my wife, who simply said she was comfortable winging it. Then in the meeting, it was all tears and "I never thought I was going to be forced to move out, too!" I probably could have avoided this by being more firm in asking her plans during mediation sessions. We have only had 2 mediation sessions. It's a process, but I am still trying to learn the strategy for working within this "collaborative" environment.

[livednlearned]

I noticed in my own process that I sort of "grew up" in a legal sense. Meaning, at first, I was entirely dependent on having my L lead.

Then something happened in mediation early on that flicked a switch. Kind of went like this:

They work for me. 

This is my life. 

I am paying them. 

I know what is best for me. 

[takingandsending]

Yes. I agree. That thought occurred to me during the meeting yesterday when my lawyer ducked out for a few minutes. I thought to myself that he is working for me. I can tell him it is not okay to do personal stuff on my time, seeing as how he is charging me down to 6 minute increments.

[GaGrl]

Your wife was never talking about a true nesting arrangement.  She wanted to next, with you doing drive-bys.

[takingandsending]

Agreed Gagrl. I requested the divorce so I naturally forfeit all priveleges except the privilege of continuing to support her. In truth, I do know she will need help, and I am not averse to that for a limited duration. It's the disordered thinking that is so difficult. We do not communicate at this point even though it would save us so much time and attorney fees. We are maybe not so very far off in terms of how we see things working out, but we will have to go through hell and back to get there because of the illness.

[ForeverDad]

Do you think there is a risk that she might make allegations (DV, child abuse, child neglect) to force you out now that her plans failed (Gagrl: her nest, you drive by)?  Have the police, CPS or children's services been involved previously?

I recall that when I called police, that step up the legal ladder totally changed the relationship.  Before that it was her bickering, demanding, ranting and raging.  After that it was (1) total blacklist and (2) make any allegation against me that might make me look worse than her.

Those last few months leading up to the 'end' I tried to carry a voice recorder with me.  I desperately felt I had to prove I wasn't the one behaving poorly.  It was my insurance - get out of jail free card - that help me be a bit less sleepless back then.  (That was a decade ago, today there are many devices that can record so don't feel reluctant to record quietly, don't trigger more conflict.  There are even pen cams that can record from your shirt pocket and write too.)

Fortunately, I never spent time in jail, though it was touch and go during that first 911 call.  Police wanted me to 'step away' but my preschooler saved me by refusing to let go and go to his mother.  But other members here have spent time in jail though they did nothing wrong.  My lawyer said that in my state someone has to be carted off on a domestic dispute call to defuse the incident.  In some places both get carted off.

[takingandsending]

Hi Foreverdad.
Taking a deep breath, I don't believe she has plans to file false DV on me. That is not her style, though I do fear she may listen to her friends' crazy ideas and I have no clue about what they advise her. I don't interact much with her, and usually only with S11 as witness. Still, I will think about recording device for self protection.

I am planning to try SET at mediation on Wednesday, along the lines "I understand how frustrating it is to still be living together in the same house. You don't have the space to be yourself. If we work together on the residential plan and finding a cheap, short term rental, we can both get the space we need."

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

I think the structure of your SET comment is in the ballpark and is probably fine.

My only comment is that it has a hint of saying what you are feeling, superimposed on pronouns that describe her feelings.

Is she frustrated living together in the same house? Does she want space to be herself? Those are two things that are antithetical to BPD, made confusing by the fact she is behaving in such contrary ways (it's all she knows, sadly). People with BPD tend to want closeness and space can trigger terrifying aloneness.

It is probably something else that is frustrating her, like uncertainty or change or the sadness of failing at her marriage. Or, she doesn't want to live apart from her son, which may be more to the point.

You don't have to get it 100 percent on the target, though maybe a little closer if that's what you're going for so you don't invalidate when you're actually putting in effort to do the opposite.

[takingandsending]

Good point. I don't know what she is actually feeling. She has said that she wants me out, feels nervous and judged when I am around, can't be creative or herself with me,  can't parent how she wants. Likely, underneath that is, "I'm hurt, I'm scared, I'm angry."
But I also think in her mind, once I am out she can have her way, choose her roommate, and possibly boyfriend. Yes, she has been hanging out with a man that she has been doing trades of healing energy work for computer website maintenance. So she may be thinking that as well. "I am frustrated and mad that you are keeping me from what I want". I don't know how she feels which might kill the empathy part. Thought frustration was close enough but maybe add hurt and scared.

[livednlearned]

SET is probably a little trickier in divorce negotiations, I would imagine, because you have an endgame.

At the same time, Eddy recommends using a similar acronym for the same purposes -- try to keep emotional arousal from escalating so that the BPD person can focus on problem-solving. I can't remember what each of the letters stand for... .the acronym is EAR. Empathy, something something.

"I understand you have grave concerns about my ability to parent. You may feel torn because on one hand, if they are with you more, you can oversee their care more closely. On the other hand, splitting time like this gives you time to focus on your healing work, and that makes you feel good, which has a good downstream influence on their well-being. Our agreement is to find secondary residence so the kids can stay put, and ... .xyz."

Something like that? It's good to have a clear point to each statement so things don't get muddied. She will need help from others to stay on point. Is the goal of this SET statement to get her to agree to 50/50? Or is it to get her to work with you to get one secondary residence? Or does she need to get her own residence?

I guess one thing I'm wondering, in terms of the nesting arrangement, is how the next stonewall will go. Won't she make it difficult each time you are supposed to move in? It seems like a cooperative arrangement that could work for couples who can put the kids first. Except she's one of the kids, in a way  

[takingandsending]

That is a really good example, lnl! I like it. I <ahem> have not actually read Splitting.    Suppose I had better get a copy this weekend and start reading.

My goals are to have 50/50 established before I leave house and a means to accomplish that (i.e. second residence with a way to pay for it). I am okay with a temporary solution, like staying with sister or friend or whatever. But I want agreement to work during that temporary span (say 2-3 months) toward a longer temporary solution like renting a room in a house or finding a studio apt - basically somewhere to sleep, cook, eat and be out of the cold when not at house. Eventually, we work out split of property and move to two separate homes. The short term temporary solution could be skipped if we can work toward the longer temporary solution. Problem has been my wife resists when I try to suggest finding a place.

Soo, "I understand you have serious concerns about my ability to parent and want to support S5 and S11 in their care and growth. And you are caught between needing to focus on your work and take care of the kids. If we agree to split the time between the kids, it will give you more time to focus on your work that makes you feel good and also will help the boys see you empowered and happy. Our agreement is to take care of the boys and, at least not initially, move them from the house. You have provided your list of concerns and I agree to write in our communication journal when they are in bed, have been fed, have washed, chores done and musical practice done. I will do this for the first 3 months to help them get the consistency and structure they need to be healthy, happy and do well in school. To make this work, we need to agree to the residential schedule and to find a secondary place to stay when we are not at the house with the boys. Do you agree with the initial schedule that we worked out with the agreement to use the communication journal? Do you agree to work together to find a secondary place to stay for this interim period until we work out a stable financial division of property?"

Will she stonewall and be in house during my residential time or renege on agreements? Yes. But at least within the process, I can document the agreements we had and use them if we end up in litigation. I can't use the evidence of her breaking the agreements, but I can at least pull forward the agreements we reached as the starting point with the courts. I am looking at this as, I have a team of people trying to help us reach agreements and keep us out of court. If it fails, any agreements we achieved can be used as the foundation for court case. Still hoping it does not come to that.

[livednlearned]

You might have to break the SET statements into two things (I had a hard time following)... .then come together for the Truth.

1. (S, E) "I understand you have serious concerns about my ability to parent and want to support S5 and S11 in their care and growth. You love the kids and want the best for them, I can see that."

2. (S, E) "I understand, too, how important your healing work is to you. Taking care of your health is really admirable, and doing so has positive effects on the kids."

T: You want time to focus on your healing, I plan to do the same -- I think this will make me a better dad. We can do this nesting arrangement temporarily, where we each have time to focus on ourselves. The kids will be with you in the house, then you will spend time focusing on your healing work. I'll be doing the same when the schedule flips.

T: The list of concerns and recommendations you provided are helpful, thank you. I commit to write in our communication journal when they are in bed, have been fed, have washed, chores done and musical practice done, like you suggested. I will do this for the first 3 months to help them get the consistency and structure they need to be healthy, happy and do well in school, like we discussed.

T: Do you agree with the initial schedule that we worked out with the agreement to use the communication journal? Do you agree to work together to find a secondary place to stay for this interim period until we work out a stable financial division of property?"

There is still a tiny bit of eggshell crunching going on... .although it's mainly to prevent emotional arousal from escalating. By that, I mean focusing on you having time for your own healing. She wants to block everything, and you having time to heal is probably a (vague) sore point. Why should you have a good time post divorce? Harumph. Etc. That way she is hopefully inclined to think, wait a second, why should he get more free time than me?

Also, I think it's good to end with a question in which she has to answer.

Part of the challenge with SET is that her response is going to come out of left field. So you have to prepare for that and know it's coming, and then have a strategy to stay in SET mode, to help land her plane.

She will feel like she's losing, things are moving fast, her mind is not so great at problem solving. So she locks her gears and tries to stall and control things because saying yes is too vulnerable.

Using support and empathy will hopefully keep her in a state of reassurance so she isn't 100 percent in her emotion mind.

[takingandsending]

Okay. That approach makes sense. One clarification: her healing work is currently her self employment business, i.e. she works as an energetic healer on other people. The irony of that whole situation is not lost on me, I assure you. So, when I am saying she needs time for her healing work, it literally means, she needs time to spend on her business, not so much on healing herself. She does believe it makes her feel empowered.

Over the past 3-3.5 years, she has seemed to gain greater happiness and focus on her healing work than her family. Nothing terrible about that except there is very little of that work, i.e. it is a money losing business every year. She attributes her lack of success to the fetters that I have placed upon her - you know, making her be a stay at home mom, not believing in her enough, not listening enough to her stories of other healers, not agreeing to her taking every business and self help class that she knows will be the paradigm shift she has waited for her entire life, not working hard enough to sell her book that no one seems to want to buy, not helping her marketing efforts ... .you get the picture. So, she likes taking off and hanging with her possible BF to work on her website, and hang with her energy healing (mostly) gal pals because they assure her she is a wonderful person. She spends her time at home with the kids with her earbuds in listening to her healing teachers or participating in webinars that I pay for. My kids sometimes tell me that aside from meals, she is upstairs on the computer or has her headphones on. She takes them out only when they interrupt her, and the catch hell for that.

So, maybe best to say "You want time to focus on your life. I plan to do the same ... ." I think it is a workable structure. It is 2 SETs, but they are both around the truth that we need to move forward with separating out of one household. It won't be perfect, but it's worth a shot. Thank you for the advice.

[takingandsending]

To be 100% fair, that is a business model that is very hard to be successful in, and I never established good boundaries around her business. I always thought it would help her feel like she was doing good in the world, little realizing that it was another way to escape dealing with herself. And when I did finally realize it, I did not have the clarity in my core values to draw consistent, understandable boundaries. I finally did reach the point of saying her business income had to finance any future classes or travel that she wanted, which is still pretty weak considering her income should have been added to the household income. One of the many "No longer my problem" issues that I look forward to. 

[livednlearned]

Ah, ok. Got it.

Makes sense.

I keep reading here and there about how people with PDs are drawn to therapy, healing, teaching, caregiving/nursing. There have been people on these boards married to BPD spouses who are therapists 

[ForeverDad]

My Ex too wanted some emotional work.  She tried selling multi-level-marketing essential oils, foot reflexology and massages.  She even moved our bedroom furniture over to a spare room so she could use the master bedroom and bath for her clients' use.  Never happened.  So far as I know those career efforts were all flops.  A parent can't live on $200 a month.  So I would not count on your spouse to earn much in those efforts.  On the other hand, she's an adult and you have little voice if any on her career choices.

Side point... .One of my healing landmarks was to move myself, only in the past year or so, back into the master bedroom.