Struggling to validate through abusive statements and inaccuracies

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have been trying almost daily to work on my validation skills in communication. It's been my experience so far that when I get it wrong, it must feel invalidating and triggers a worse reaction than if I had tried nothing at all.

The more challenging aspect is that sometimes an expression of emotion or statement (where validation would be a good tool to connect) is immediately followed by a sentence of phrase that is abusive to me or is just factually incorrect.

Then I feel stuck. To validate what is being expressed, I would almost have to concede the abusive or incorrect statement to be true.

After trying this for a number of months, I feel like validation works when her mood is generally better. When her mood is not good at baseline, validation is not going to make much of a difference.

Does this sound familiar? Does anyone have books or references that help you practice this skill (in addition to what is on this site)?

[lpheal]

I have been trying almost daily to work on my validation skills in communication. It's been my experience so far that when I get it wrong, it must feel invalidating and triggers a worse reaction than if I had tried nothing at all.

The more challenging aspect is that sometimes an expression of emotion or statement (where validation would be a good tool to connect) is immediately followed by a sentence of phrase that is abusive to me or is just factually incorrect.

Then I feel stuck. To validate what is being expressed, I would almost have to concede the abusive or incorrect statement to be true.

After trying this for a number of months, I feel like validation works when her mood is generally better. When her mood is not good at baseline, validation is not going to make much of a difference.

Does this sound familiar? Does anyone have books or references that help you practice this skill (in addition to what is on this site)?

[michel71]

Absolutely. And I am pretty much challenged when it comes to the tools but I keep trying. I am interested to see the responses from other more learned individuals than myself.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Ipheal:    

Validation doesn't mean that you agree with them on something.  It just means that you acknowledge their feelings.  You don't want to validate the invalid.  Sometimes, it can just be a matter of not being invalidating (by word or expression).  

Here are some links and info. that you might find helpful:

VALIDATION

VALIDATION - DON'T INVALIDATE

VALIDATION - LEVELS OF VALIDATION

The quote below from Waverider, is wise advice to consider.

Keep in mind that validation is just good oil, it makes the relationship cogs turn more smoothly but it doesn't fix a broken cog. So you add a bit and if it doesn't ease the problem you leave it at that, not much point trying to add too much you just flood it and make a mess.

[SettingBorders]

My experience is that one can validate at the wrong time. When she is mean, there is nothing to validate, not even her anger or her fear.

If you said "I can see that you are very angry... ." or "You must feel very hurt... ." or "I guess I made you upset" to someone healty, this is a good thing. And I read here that it works with some BPD people as well. But it doesn't work at all with my BPD boyfriend. He feels offended then. And fights back even more. Maybe its the same with your wife?

If it's so, remember you're not her doormat. Leave the situation. Breathe.

[michel71]

Is it possible that someone is so disordered that validating NEVER works?

[Naughty Nibbler]

Best to use validation in conjunction with boundaries.  After validating their feelings, you need to enforce your boundary to NOT stay in the discussion.  You can state that you won't discuss it any further, then leave the area.  It won't work if you aren't consistent.  Initially, you could get more anger and at some point,  AN EXTINCTION BURST

This article could be helpful:

THE DYSFUNCTIONAL DANCE
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66672.0;all

Another member had a similar situation in the thread below:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=303895.0

[formflier]

If you said "I can see that you are very angry... ." or "You must feel very hurt... ." or "I guess I made you upset" to someone healty, this is a good thing.

A bit of nuance on the above statements could smooth things out some.

Refrain from saying "you"... .even said in a friendly way it can be accusatory.  They can likely hear "you are angry"... then blame you.

Try this on.  Acknowledge the issue... but don't assign it.  "I'm not going to be able to continue talking while threats are between us"

Substitute another word for threats if it is more accurate.

You are acknowledging there is something between us... .stating your boundary and walking away.  If your pwBPD wants to "claim ownership" of the abuse... .great.  If not... .leave it.  Not your job to convince them.

Important point... .if they do claim it... .or apologize.  Stop.  Breathe... .graciously accept and put it in context of you and the relationship.

"It means a lot to me when you apologize and put work into the r/s"  then move along... .

If it's so, remember you're not her doormat. Leave the situation. Breathe.

The bolded quote from above is most important!  Never... ever... .ever... .apologize or feel bad for walking away from abusive statements... .emotional abuse.  Realize your pwBPD won't "agree" with you walking away... .that's not the important thing.  Protecting yourself is.


Last point:  Validation is not an on or off switch that works or doesn't.  Think of it as some oil in machinery... .things go smoother.  Sometimes machinery is so crappy... .no amount of oil will work.  Just try again later.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Please note that you cannot validate AND enforce a boundary at the same time. If you try to do them both, neither will work.

I've found that when I'm not in a good, caring, centered mood, I suck at validation. I've also found that when my partner is upset, validation is very very hard, and I choose not to try then. In either case, I'd go to boundary enforcement instead.

One thing about validation is that you shouldn't validate anything which is invalid.

So don't try to validate the abusive things she says. Or the incorrect things she says. (There may be a valid feeling mixed in with them which you can attempt to validate)

[Naughty Nibbler]

Please note that you cannot validate AND enforce a boundary at the same time. If you try to do them both, neither will work.

Maybe we are viewing boundaries differently. . .Just thinking that you can have a boundary to terminate discussions in a friendly manner, to head off a circular argument.  i.e. "I can see you are upset, I love you, I'm not cheating on you and I won't carry on that discussion any further. 

In one recent example, a member kept apologizing inappropriately, in order to terminate an argument.  He set a boundary, to not do that anymore.  He started validating, quit apologizing for something that wasn't his fault and cut off a circular argument as soon as possible.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

I struggle mightily with the communication methods that help in a BPD relationship.

Sometimes it feels that by having to be so 'perfect' with our words, that even with boundaries in place it feels like I'm 'talking' on eggshells still... .if not walking.

It takes me a LOT of energy to communicate that way. I try, but then when it seems to fail I just clam up, and kind of zone out.

I wish I was more adept at it.

It was interesting this morning my BPDw left me a note asking me to do two things around the house.  It shocked me how effective it was.

There was no tone.  No body language.  No eyes rolling.  No stomping off.  No judgement.

With none of that it was easy to do the two tasks, and I felt good about doing them.

It then occurred to me, that in a healthy relationship two partners can communicate that way every day... .face to face... .with their voices.  I found that strangely funny.

I wish you all the best in your efforts to communicate.  Its difficult!

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe we are viewing boundaries differently. . .Just thinking that you can have a boundary to terminate discussions in a friendly manner, to head off a circular argument.  i.e. "I can see you are upset, I love you, I'm not cheating on you and I won't carry on that discussion any further.

NN, your example is wonderful; I wouldn't change a bit of it; Reminds me a bit of the S.E.T. communication tool.

My comment about boundary enforcement and validation not happening at the same time may be a subtle point or a bit more of a semantic issue.

The part in italics is validating. The part in bold is boundary enforcement. The part in the middle is stating your truths (which the other person doesn't likely believe right now).

There is nothing validating in the boundary enforcement part--In fact it is a bit invalidating because the other person wants to be fighting you, and you are not letting them get what they want!

[badknees1]

Went through this 20 minutes ago. BPD wife was still enraged from earlier confrontations. Validating was useless. So I left from to much verbal abuse... .
I understand your predicament. I've it too

[formflier]

My comment about boundary enforcement and validation not happening at the same time may be a subtle point or a bit more of a semantic issue.
 

Be aware that every once in a great while a chance comes... .sort of like that fastball you have been waiting to hit out of the park... .to validate while boundary enforcement is happening. 

Usually when their feelings turn to frustration they may lash out, saying things like... "You aren't listening to me any more" or " you won't talk to me anymore... "... .or "I hate you because you won't listen... ." etc etc.

I'm not at all suggesting anyone linger in this type of verbally abusive environment, but I do think that validation/agreement and perhaps a short "truth" are 100% on point.

"You are right, I won't talk to you right now while accusations are between us... " or variations on something like that.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I can really suck at validating, so my biggest effort is not to invalidate.

Sometimes when I do try validate and to identify what emotion he might be feeling, it seems like he wants me to be "wrong" and kind of delights in telling me that I've mis-identified his emotion.

For example, I might say, "You appear to be sad," and then he'll say, "It would be nice if someone cared about me." This indicates that he moved from sad to angry for me trying to identify his emotion. It's almost like if he thinks he's transparent, he's vulnerable, and he doesn't want to give me some imagined power over him.

[lpheal]

It is good to see all of the replies to this subject. I can see it is one thing to read about validation and another thing to use it successfully in a dynamic conversation.

This is one of the two areas I am really trying to focus on the next 3-6 months. The other is boundaries. I recently picked up the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, and at least so far I'm finding it very good and useful.