The counselor said...

[lpheal]

I met with a marriage counselor (by myself) yesterday, which was my first time seeing her in about six months. She said I had become remarkably more composed since my visit six months ago, and visibly looked much better. I attribute much (or almost all) of that to the information I have received from the people on this site. So many, many thanks to everyone for their contributions.

... .She also said, "I don't normally interject my own opinions, but in your case I believe you need to get out of this marriage. In the long term it will be much better for you and your D2." I know she is right deep down.

So I think I need to start reading and posting more on this board (previously was on Deciding) as I try to take the next steps in this process.

Thank you again for reading and contributing.

[takingandsending]

Hi lpheal.

I am glad to hear that you are looking and feeling better! The information on this site truly does help us begin to understand the dynamics of living with a pwBPD. Many people say they feel like they rediscover who they used to be once they step out of the FOG that defines so many relationships with a PD.

The recommended reading on this board is Bill Eddy's book "Splitting" for insight on divorce in a high conflict relationship. The other common advice is that you find a lawyer who: a) has experience in cases with a spouse with PD; b) has experience litigating in court (because that is where many of these divorces end up, sad to say). In general, you want someone who will be proactive and firm to assist in resisting the attacks, delays, attempts to mislead and other challenging behaviors that BPD/NPD partners may exhibit under stress.

How are things at the house currently? How is your daughter faring if things are strained between you and your wife? What sort of custody arrangement are you seeking?

[lpheal]

The recommended reading on this board is Bill Eddy's book "Splitting" for insight on divorce in a high conflict relationship. The other common advice is that you find a lawyer who: a) has experience in cases with a spouse with PD; b) has experience litigating in court (because that is where many of these divorces end up, sad to say). In general, you want someone who will be proactive and firm to assist in resisting the attacks, delays, attempts to mislead and other challenging behaviors that BPD/NPD partners may exhibit under stress.

How are things at the house currently? How is your daughter faring if things are strained between you and your wife? What sort of custody arrangement are you seeking?

Thank you for the reply.

I have ordered that book and intend to read it cover to cover before taking any action.

Things in the house are not quite as tense as they were back in the summer. That doesn't mean they are good, but a little less volatile. Language that is verbally abusive still occurs at least weekly. Poking/scratching behaviors (low level physical abuse) maybe once per month with a severe rage (last was Valentine's Day... .not surprising).

The aspect to it that might be the biggest problem long term (which occurs many days of the week), are these low level insults. She frequently inserts little jabs at me in conversations. It can be around our D2 as well. For example, I can be playing with D2 and D2 is wearing a mask pretending to be a dragon. My wife will just say, ":)addy doesn't need a mask to be a monster." Last weekend D2 had a cold and wife wanted to check her temperature. Wife is sitting on the couch surfing the internet. I was washing the dishes after I also made dinner (so I was busy). She said she needed the thermometer ("I need it" not "would you mind", so I stopped what I was doing, went and got it out and gave it to D2 to take to her. She then said, "I guess Daddy can't check your temperature."

If I let it go and just ignore it, that's the end of it. If I call it out on the spot, then there is an argument in front of our daughter. I almost always choose to let it go now... .this time a year ago it really got to me though. That type of stuff will happen for a few days, then (like yesterday and today) it stops and she is normal like when we first met. It oscillates all the time and I can't predict it.

It won't be too many more months (or year or two at most) before D2 picks up on all of this, and that's when it will be time to go. If by some miracle a light-bulb goes off in her head and she changes during that time, I'll reevaluate. I do worry a little about feeling stuck or codependent, but it was nice to hear the counselor say everything I was saying was about what I can do so she wasn't hearing anything that sounded like codependence on my part.

I want a "second opinion" from another counselor, since this would be one of the biggest decisions of my life and have an impact on my daughter's life as well. I feel like I can do that also because I'm not sure I've found the right attorney yet. I had previously retained one, but cancelled the contract two months ago.

Our D2 is happy and very bright. She does have the occasional toddler meltdown, which is why they are called the terrible twos. The interesting part is when those do happen my wife says she now acts that way "because of us." She actually said our D2 had become "a monster because of us." Meaning my wife's behavior is a result of the way I am, so ultimately I am responsible for our daughter's behavior. It's so ridiculous, but it's not even worth the argument most of the time.

I'm still trying to understand custody and what it could like, but I think some type of 50/50 arrangement is what I would have to expect. The attorneys I spoke with used the term custodial parent, and said it would probably be her. I would be happy with a true 50/50 arrangement if possible. I feel like it is, which is why I want to talk to more attorneys. As children get older and assert their independence I can imagine more of this behavior gets directed toward them. I would imagine parenting in the same house is really difficult at that point.   

Thanks again for listening.

[takingandsending]

lpheal,

You are welcome, and no problem on the listening side. That's what we are all here for. 

I am going to go out on a limb here and maybe pull from a help I received a little over a year ago from livednlearned (really can't sing her praises enough). It sounds like you already know in your heart where your RS is heading, but your head hasn't caught up yet. As I was once told on these boards, your D2 is waiting for dad to figure it out - what you already know. I am going to suggest not waiting for your daughter to have to pick up on the bad dynamic between you and your wife; she likely already does. Your wife's comment about her acting out as a result of your dynamic is like most things said by BPD - not really accurate (because it is meant as a blame or projection) but not entirely untrue either. My STBxw said the very same things to me. And there is truth to it. Any child will pick up on tension, fighting or discord between their parents because it affects their security and attachment. That's a fact.

I tried for 2 years, after learning that my wife had this PD, to rationalize staying, freaked out about the security of my S11 and S5 if I left, convinced myself to just buck up until they were older, that I could learn enough excellent tools on the Staying/Improving board to manage the attacks, to build firm boundaries, to learn what was healthy for me and protect that, to maintain some empathy and positive regard for my wife in this illness. But, in the end, I realized that it is really like a simple math problem - the resources I spend on maintaining a poorly functioning relationship are resources that I don't spend on being a parent to my children. And they deserve to have my full resources. I think, if you consider that with your D2, you may well reach a similar conclusion.

I know this is a really difficult and very personal decision you are facing. But, delaying it didn't help me or my sons. In retrospect, I wish I had started the divorce process sooner. But, I needed that time to allow my rational mind to catch up to where my heart knew I needed to be for quite a long while. For my sons' sakes, I wish I could have figured it out quicker.

Please read through the communication tools on the improving board, especially boundaries, validation and confrontation. It's hard to read what your wife said in front of your little daughter without being triggered by it - truly awful behavior. To the extent possible, understand that what your wife says is a projection of something that she is terrified to feel or express. I don't recommend ignoring her attacking behavior, because it will only continue. You can be firm. Validate her feeling as best as you can comprehend it in the moment, but express your truth too.

Keep posting and let us know how you are doing in this process.

[ForeverDad]

I too faced negative inuendoes and little 'parental alienation' jabs.  So have many here.  You can't stop her from doing that.  Maybe court will order her not to disparage you to the children or in the presence of the children.  However, you know she doesn't listen to you, probably she won't pay much attention tot he court either.  Since she will have time with the children when you're not around whether you are living together or not, that part is out of your hands.  What you can control is your parenting time but of course in large part you have to get that from the court and it won't step up unless the marriage is ending.

Being passive or in the background doesn't work.  Yes, the court may relegate you to the background, but don't you do that to yourself.

Years from now you'll need to be able to look your child in the eyes and tell him, "Yes, I did care for you, I did stand up for you, I did fight for you, I did my reasonable best."  Your child won't expect you to have been Superman, but he will want, no, need, you to assure him you didn't willingly walk away.  Believe me, that is the message she will be relentlessly pounding into him over the years, whether directly or subtly.  ":)addy didn't care about you", ":)addy abandoned you", etc.

My ex did that forcefully even before we separated... .   "Papi no te quiere pero mami te quiere." - Translation:  Daddy doesn't want/love you but mommy does.

My actions proved otherwise.  Yes, in the temp orders I was non-primary minority time parent and that lasted about 2.5 years but that was the court's arbitrary decision, not mine.  The point is, do what you reasonably can within your circumstances and ability, never give up and as for the rest, well, "Let Go and Let God".

[Sluggo]

Ipheal,

The aspect to it that might be the biggest problem long term (which occurs many days of the week), are these low level insults.

I always thought of this when going through is the 'death of a thousand cuts' .  Each one separately is easily tolerated and ignored.  However it is when they are one after the other day after day.  I began to really think poorly of myself in such a subtle way that I did not really realize it.  I thought I was a 'strong' guy for not letting her get under my skin becuase you are exactly right... .if I didn't respond to the little cuts from the wife ... .then it would blow over like a passing thunder cloud.  But if I did not let it go... .  then that thunder cloud would stir up a big storm.   But in reality Ipheal, I was getting more and more depressed, unable to make decisions, and in the end could not even answer my kids questions without saying 'I don't know you have to ask your mom'. 

My kids did pick up on it.  I have 7 children and the oldest 4 kids (9,12,14,15) have treated me that way.  Becuase that is the way they saw that I allowed my wife to treat me that way.  It is 1 year and still in the divorce process and my kids have been damaged.  I allowed it by letting them see the example my wife set.  My younger 3 treat me like gold still because I think they haven't seen the behavior as long as they are younger, but the 4 oldest have a contempt for me that is devastating.   In hind site, I did have a lawyer retained 3 years earlier, which I could have kept the kids from the last 3 years of escalating abuse and put downs.  But like taking and sending said, my head could see it but my emotions were still to 'codependent' for me to make the sensible decision. 

[lpheal]

It sounds like you already know in your heart where your RS is heading, but your head hasn't caught up yet. As I was once told on these boards, your D2 is waiting for dad to figure it out - what you already know. I am going to suggest not waiting for your daughter to have to pick up on the bad dynamic between you and your wife; she likely already does.

I think there is truth to that. It's a splash of cold water to the face to be told that your marriage is fatally flawed (my words). So it takes a little time to adjust to the idea that it's a relationship that is going end. I will also say that I've come a long way the past six months in understanding what I am dealing with. I just want a little more information about what to expect in the next steps going forward, both to protect me and put myself in the best position possible. Thanks again for reading.

[Sluggo]

Ipeah,

What to expect and what I did or would suggest to do... .  This was my situation.  I pulled this from an earlier post.   

I left the house because it became intolerable.  it became to intolerable with all the stuff being about me and to me, the rages on me, the silent treatment, etc.  Was that a good decision?... .  It was the right thing for me to do at the time.  I started healing.    However it was a big price... .  I quickly became excluded from the house and from the children.  My children were being told by her that they could not talk to me.  She had one of my daughters call me and tell me that I needed to stop going to her volleyball games or my wife would pull her out of the volleyball for the season.  There were more of those types of stories of alienation.  It has been awful. 

What would be some points to think about or things I did that were helpful.  This points are made more completely in Bill Eddies book splitting and Dr. Childress Foundations (also can find videos of him on Youtube)
. 
1.  I started recording all conversations when in the house. THIS IS IMPORTANT to do.   I would keep my cell phone in my pocket at all times while it was recording.  This has been extremely helpful with the lawyers, custody evaluator, my listening back to the conversations to confirm what I did hear from my wife despite the wife saying the exact opposite.  Do this now while still in the house. 
2.  I started reading the above books
3.  I started posting on this board my story and getting feedback from others who have been through it.
4.  It sounds like you do not have access to the house.  If you get access I would start taking possessions out of the house- photo albums, taxes, bank information, and anything else of importance.  Once you leave you might not get anything back.  My wife threw out my golf clubs and said that I must have taken them.  You know you can always make copies of the photos and give them back to her... .but she probably would not do the same to you. 
5.  My wife used the kids as the weapons and kept them from me.  The oldest is 17 and youngest is 3.  She has skewed the minds of the 4 oldest (10 years and older).    That has been the absolute hardest part.  The preliminary order I signed was horrible.  I was still in the FOG and let my wife dictate what it should look like--  just like I did in our marriage.  I did not convey in strong language to my lawyer that my wife had a mental disorder and that I needed his help and guidance because I was a push over and was afraid to stand up to my wife.  Lawyer thought it was a run of the mill divorce and I was exaggerating.  I changed the lawyer after the prelim order was signed but I already made the major mistake of signing it.   
6.  I asked for a custody evaluation.  THIS WAS THE BEST THING I DID.  It was 86 pages long and did cost about 20K.  However, she saw my 'real wife' and not the one the public 'sees' as the perfect wife and mom.  It gave me 50/50 parenting time.  The 4 oldest kids are very alienated now as it has been 1 year since filing and still waiting on the divorce to go through (4th, 7th grade , sophmore and junior).  My wife keeps continuing the court cases.  The younger 3 have not been affected by the alienation yet (3rd, kinder, 3yrs).
8.  I feel much better / heart wrenching to see the kids alienated / but the little time I do have with the kids is how I want to parent and that has been wonderful.  My wife felt jealous of the time I even spent with the kids when living with her.