Dealing with stbxH emotionally abusing/manipulating our daughter

[Gerda]

Part of this may just be me getting this off my chest, because I was afraid something like this would happen, but I had hoped it wouldn't be this bad.

I mentioned in my last post some of the things D4 has been saying to me after visits with her uBPDdad. This has just continued. If anything, it's gotten worse.

For one thing, he's definitely turned into the "Disneyland Dad" stereotype. Looks like she's eating fast food for dinner every night, because she's accumulating a lot of the little toys that come with the kid's meals. She sticks some of them in her backpack to bring back to my place, and we must have 7 or 8 of them by now.

The other day she said to me, "Dada says that he buys me lots of toys because he loves me so much, and he said Mama doesn't buy me toys anymore because you think I have too many." I reminded her of some of the toys I have bought her, but that especially stung because an argument over him buying her too many toys was how I ended up getting threatened to get punched in the face a couple of years ago. At that time he was buying her a new toy at least once a week.

She's not begging me to please please get back together with Dada as much anymore, or saying that Dada says he's really, really sorry about the fights as much anymore, but I suspect that's because Dada isn't telling her to tell me that stuff anymore because he's finally starting to accept for himself that this divorce is going through and I'm not nonsuiting it again this time.

Now instead she's been asking me why she gets to spend more time with me instead of Dada. I told her it's because I take care of her more than Dada, and she said, "but now Dada takes care of me." I told her that of course he takes care of her while I'm not there, but reminded her that before I moved out I took care of her all the time. She acknowledged that was true, but then added, "But Dada takes care of me now!" She also asks me, "What's my real home?" I'll tell her, "you have two homes now," and then she says, "Dada says his house is my real home because I've lived there since I was a baby." I really suspect this is not all stuff she's coming up with on her own.

(Speaking of which, Dada had to text me the other day asking what size clothes D4 wears because the clothes I left there with him are all too small, which is true - I look all her best clothes with me. He also had to ask me what brand lotion she uses (she has a skin condition where she needs to put on this special lotion every day). I'm keeping all these messages as proof that he never had to do any of these things before now.)

D4 also asked me, "Who else gave you the idea to leave?" which sounds like something straight out of Dada's mouth and definitely NOT something a four year old would come up with. It's exactly the kind of paranoid stuff he'd ask me all the time. In the years leading up to me leaving, he'd go on and on about how my mother or sister or friends must be trying to talk me into divorcing him, as if I can't make decisions for myself (and as if he hadn't at the same time been getting into rages every week or two and telling me HE wants a divorce!).

I just told D4 the truth that "No one else gave me the idea to leave besides Dada."

I got so angry about this kind of talk that last week I sent him a message telling him to please stop using D4 to relay messages to me, and giving a couple of examples of things she's said. He replied denying it and saying that D4 is coming up with all of this on her own, because she's "a clever girl" and doesn't like what is happening and wants to get her family back together. I told him that she told me that he told her to say these things, and a lot of these things are obviously things a 4 year old would not say on her own (like "who gave you the idea to leave?").

He replied saying that D4 has been telling him that I had been secretly telling her about my plans for months before I left, and said that he thought that was very inappropriate of me to do. I told him that's absolutely not true, because if I had told her, she would have told him, because four year olds can't keep secrets. He said, "OK, I'm glad she misremembered that." So that made me even angrier, because either he made that up to make it look like I've also been talking to D4 about inappropriate things, or this discredits anything D4 says, because I obviously did not tell her about my plans ahead of time.

Then a couple of days ago right after she was done with her nightly video call with Dada, she told me, "Dada said that the only way we can get our family back together is for me to keep telling you that he loves you and wants you back and that I want us to get back together and be a family again." I clarified, "Dada told you that?" She said, "yeah." I told her, "it's not your job to try to get me and Dada back together," and then she freaked out and screamed, "BUT IT'S THE ONLY WAY!" and then burst into tears.

So I had to hold her in my lap sobbing for a while until she calmed down. I explained to her again that the reason why I moved out was because Dada and I kept fighting and it was too scary for me to stay. I told her that now that I'm not with Dada anymore, we can't fight anymore. She said again that he's sorry and told her he won't do it anymore, and I again reminded her that he said that lots of times but kept doing it. She said, "but Dada hadn't fought for days and days before you left," and I broke the news to her that actually yes, we had, but it just been when she was at school. She looked at me with a look of surprise on her face and said, "you had?" and then started sobbing again. (Maybe I shouldn't have told her that.)

Then she told me, "but Dada fights with me sometimes too, so what can we do about that? I miss Dada and want to keep seeing him!" I asked her to tell me about her fighting with Dada, and she said something about how she hurt his guitar and he yelled at her and told her to go to her room, and she didn't like that.

I realize that this is all getting filtered through the mind of a nearly-5 year old, but I do worry that now that I'm not around to be the lightning rod for his rage, that he's going to start losing it at D instead. Before I left, he only totally lost his temper at D maybe 2 or 3 times. It was almost always directed at me instead (though right in front of D a lot of the time, which was bad enough). I worry about him screaming at her when I'm not there to defend/comfort her.

Maybe the incident she was trying to describe to me wasn't abusive, and was normal parent-getting-angry-at-kid stuff, but I could tell that she was trying to tell me that she was worried that if leaving and not seeing him anymore was my solution for Dada fighting with me, that if Dada "fights" with her, that she'll have to never see him again too.

I just wish there was some way I could put a bug on her so I could find out exactly what the heck he's been talking about with her over there. She's visiting him again this weekend. This is the third weekend visit. After both of the last two, she threw horrible tantrums as soon as I got her back to my place. The last one was so bad I felt like I never want her to go back over there again, but this weekend is Grandma's (my stbxMIL's) 88th birthday, so since she's not going to have many more birthdays, I'm trying to think of this as being a favor I'm doing for her rather than stbxH. So far she's been very civil with me, so that's something at least.

I'm also getting really tired of these nightly video calls, to the point where I get a sick feeling in my stomach when it's almost 7 pm. It feels like he's intruding into my time with D, and sometimes that triggers a tantrum/emotional meltdown too.

The thought crosses my mind sometimes, seeing D struggling with this, that I shouldn't have left when I did, and maybe I should have waited until D was a bit older. Then I try to remind myself of how bad it had gotten right before I left.

[Pook075]

The thought crosses my mind sometimes, seeing D struggling with this, that I shouldn't have left when I did, and maybe I should have waited until D was a bit older. Then I try to remind myself of how bad it had gotten right before I left.

I'm really sorry Gerda and wish I had some practical advice here, but unfortunately this is something that all of you will have to go through in the divorce and beyond.  In these situations, the kids are always stuck in the middle and it's not fair at all.  I went through the same thing after my divorce and my girls are in their 20's...it was still devastating. 

I'm not saying whether you should reconcile or stick to the divorce plan, but maybe it would help to think about steps it would take for you to reconcile.  What would he have to do?  What would be have to prove?

Think about your answer, and it would probably be something pretty significant.  That's okay though, set a high standard for what it would take for you to give him another chance...and exactly when you'd walk away again if certain boundaries were crossed.

Why is this important?  For now, dad is trying to manipulate your daughter to fight for him...because he doesn't know what else to do.  He's tried everything else and failed.  So if you told him he'd have to do A, B, and C before you could even consider talking about the relationship, then he has some clear direction that you can consistently fall back to.

I don't envy your position and it's going to be super difficult no matter what you choose.  If you ever wanted to tell him to get in therapy and take it seriously though, right now would be the time.

[Notwendy]

The thought crosses my mind sometimes, seeing D struggling with this, that I shouldn't have left when I did, and maybe I should have waited until D was a bit older. Then I try to remind myself of how bad it had gotten right before I left.

I'll propose another consideration. This is going to go on with her no matter what- whether or not you reconcile. You made the decision that to leave this relationship is the better step in the long run. It's impossible to think that either way you would have 100% supervision of the interactions between your ex and your D- you don't. At some time, the two of them will be interacting on their own- they have their own relationship, independent of you.

What you have accomplished is a stable home for your D free of the drama between you and your H for at least part of the time.

What your D needs is emotionally stable parents. If you are that parent for her- then you do need to remain emotionally stable yourself. Reconcilling won't fix your H's disorder. If you made this decision for your own mental well being- then that is your way of taking care of yourself so you can best take care of your D.

It isn't appropriate for your H to be triangulating with your D, but you can't silence him, you can't change what he thinks or chooses to say. My BPD mother does this too. Even though my parents stayed together, there was no way my father could supervise her and me together 24 /7. This is who she is and a reflection of her disorder.

As much as you want to protect your D- there are some things you can not change and one of them is that she has a disordered father. I think there are ways to mitigate the impact this has on her but I don't think it can be completely prevented. One is to have other stable adults in her world as role models and caring adults for her. For me, it was my father's extended family.

I understand that you feel badly about this- but you are doing the best you can. Likely you had no idea what your marriage would be like when you married your H. Some of this is not under our control. I think ultimately, all parents do the best they can with their children, even your H, although the "best he can" may be limited.

Even though my parents stayed together- there were arguments and BPD mother threatened divorce many times. So, I asked similar type questions to my father and even asked why they didn't get divorced. BPD mother triangulates- with everyone- not just family members. This is a reflection of her thinking. She is emotionally abusive and manipulative and there's not anything my father could do to change her thinking.

So you have two choices- one is to do what you need to do to take care of yourself so your can be at your best for you and your D. The other is to reconcile against your better judgment just to try to keep the peace but it's not a solution for dysfunction, it won't solve the arguments and fighting,  it will not change your H and it won't solve the kind of relationship dysfunction your D grows up with. Change doesn't happen quickly and you know how your H will behave if you return to the relationship.

How to help your D? Role model boundaries. Reinforce her boundaries- if something feels uncomfortable to her- don't expect her to do it. Once there's a custody agreement- that is something you likely would need to stick to. You can't control what your H says to your D- but you can control your part of it.

It is OK for you to take care of yourself. Of course your D is going to have a period of adjustment to the changes, asking questions, tantruming. I think it's worth considering counseling for her- play therapy at this age- where she can act out and process her feelings with someone neutral to the situation and also someone who can assess if there's abuse going on and how much.

[ForeverDad]

I'll propose another consideration. This is going to go on with her no matter what- whether or not you reconcile. You made the decision that to leave this relationship is the better step in the long run. It's impossible to think that either way you would have 100% supervision of the interactions between your ex and your D- you don't. At some time, the two of them will be interacting on their own- they have their own relationship, independent of you.

What you have accomplished is a stable home for your D free of the drama between you and your H for at least part of the time.

It isn't appropriate for your H to be triangulating with your D, but you can't silence him, you can't change what he thinks or chooses to say...

So you have two choices- one is to do what you need to do to take care of yourself so your can be at your best for you and your D. The other is to reconcile against your better judgment just to try to keep the peace but it's not a solution for dysfunction, it won't solve the arguments and fighting,  it will not change your H and it won't solve the kind of relationship dysfunction your D grows up with...

How to help your D? Role model boundaries. Reinforce her boundaries- if something feels uncomfortable to her- don't expect her to do it. Once there's a custody agreement- that is something you likely would need to stick to. You can't control what your H says to your D- but you can control your part of it.

It is OK for you to take care of yourself... I think it's worth considering counseling for her- play therapy at this age- where she can act out and process her feelings with someone neutral to the situation and also someone who can assess if there's abuse going on and how much.

My ex too used our marital discord as a wedge against my parenting.  The conflict had gotten much worse once we became parents.  I didn't realize it at the time but in her perceptions I was no longer her husband but a father and that triggered her childhood FOO memories.

I don't know your ex's specific issues but I can only believe the outcome would be similar.  As with my marriage that ended when my son was still 3 years old, the discord would only have gotten progressively worse if we hadn't parted ways.  There was no way to put the genie back in the bottle, no way to undo having a child together.  Any retreat would have involved appeasing, weakened boundaries and prolonging the agony.  In time, once a decent temp order is in effect, you will perceive that despite how distressing your ex is making it for you, this is far healthier for you and your daughter.

[Gerda]

Thanks for the replies.

I already know there's no "reconciliation" possible, at least not a real one. In the immediate aftermath of me leaving, he sent me a barrage of texts every day begging me to come back to him and saying again and again he wanted to reconcile. He even made a bunch of promises about things he'd do, but they were all fairly superficial ones, things like how if I got back with him we could move closer to my job so I wouldn't have such a long commute, or he'd start helping out more around the house, or that he'd start dropping off or picking up D from school sometimes.

The thing is, even if he did all those things, but kept doing the verbal/emotional/sexual abuse, I still wouldn't want to be in a relationship with him. One day I did finally get fed up with all these texts about reconciliation, and replied mentioning some of the worst abusive incidents we'd had before (the times when he had physically threatened me, punched the door, smashed things, etc.)

What did he say in reply? "But those things never happened."

And then I was absolutely sure that reconciliation was impossible. Lundy Bancroft has a list of things an abusive man has to do to really change, and I think "admit the abuse even happened" is one of the first things on the list.

So staying with him until D is older would just mean enduring his abuse for a few more years before leaving. The relationship between me and uBPDh would not have gotten any better during that time.

Ironically (since my stbxh keeps saying she was egging me on into divorcing him), my mom had been trying to talk me into waiting until D was older. In our state once a kid is 12 they get to tell the court which parent they prefer to live with (the court doesn't have to go with that, but they do get to say).

When I mentioned this to my therapist the other day though, she said she thinks if I had waited, by then I would have been "a shell of a person," and it would have just been harder for me to gather up the strength to leave at all.

It's just so upsetting to me seeing D4 upset like this, and so angry at stbxH for making her more upset than she has to be. I've looked through some of those books and TV shows and things that are supposed to help kids deal with divorce, but in all of the ones I've seen so far, both parents are doing what's right for the kid. When Abby from Sesame Street's parents got divorced, her Daddy didn't tell her to beg Mommy to come back to him. (And her Mommy didn't have to secretly leave while Daddy was at work because she was afraid Daddy might beat her up or shoot her.)

If anyone knows of any children's books or TV shows where one parent is mentally ill and abusive, let me know, because I haven't found any yet.

And I'm getting anxious about this upcoming Temporary Orders hearing, even though my lawyer is confident that they will give me primary custody. I don't really trust my lawyer anymore after what happened when he got served with papers before we were ready, and my therapist said that she's heard that my county judge likes to give 50/50 custody by default, so I don't know who to believe. It's just become so obvious to me that HE'S SUCH A BAD PARENT, and I really need to have primary custody of D, but I'm afraid the court won't care about any of this stuff.

[Notwendy]

I understand wanting to shield your child from any kind of harm- and if there is a concern about serious harm, investigating this, taking legal action would be the way to go- but you don't have this now and the first priority is to finalize the divorce. I don't have experience with this and so others here have good advice about divorce and custody situations.

From my own experience with an emotionally and verbally abusive BPD mother- I can share what helped me.

We kids were well cared for- and so no adults would have had a clue that anything was going on. BPD mother's behavior was with immediate family. Nobody else saw it, or would have suspected it. Now, with cell phones - it may be possible to record some events but not then. Calling child protective services or taking legal action would not have been helpful.

Even with my parents staying together- Dad had to work, he went on business trips- there was no way to avoid us being alone at times with my mother. I am reminding you of this so that you can keep in mind that reconciliation also would not prevent your D from experiencing her father's behavior. But what you are providing for her is a safe space away from the behavior when she is with you. I understand everyone has to weight their own pros and cons when it comes to staying or leaving and this is one aspect of having separate spaces that isn't possible when all are in one household.

I assume your STBXH will be working when he has your D- and so if your D is in child care- and also she will start school soon- this is time away from his behavior and also contact with caring stable adults. For us, school was a safe space.

I also mentioned having time with other caring adults- like my father's family who were also emotionally stable role models for me.

Counseling- seeing a counselor gives the child a safe and neutral adult to speak to. You can start whenever. I did this as a teen. I also went to student health counseling in college for support with my family dynamics. You see that your STBXH denies his behavior- and this was the case for me growing up too. It's confusing to know something that happened and have the adults tell you otherwise.

I have not been in continuous counseling but there are certain times and events where having this support helps- if there's a certain family issue, or just needing an adult to get advice and validation. Your D may have some things she needs to work on as an adult and so paving the way to seek help and letting her know it's OK to do so will be helping her.

You can help build a child's resilience by having supportive adults in their lives but also children are born with their own innate resilience- and so you can not control all of the impact of this on her. You can do the best you can and also with the resources you have. Some of this is going to be up to her too. Support for her independence, boundaries, future career one day- to the extent you are able to will help her cope.

Parents have a big influence on a child's ideas of relationships. What you are role modeling is to not tolerate abusive behavior. This way she will know she should not tolerate it either. She is too young to understand all that goes into a marriage. This isn't a Disney movie but the level of how a 4 year old comprehends it. She is going to have adjustments to the divorce and she won't comprehend it. I don't know of any books for her age but I think it's best for her to have counseling help her process at her age because that person is neutral and there's not a risk of triangulation. The counselor might suggest some books.

Take care of you. You can role model self care and to be the best parent you can be you need to be the best "You".

[Gerda]

I assume your STBXH will be working when he has your D- and so if your D is in child care- and also she will start school soon- this is time away from his behavior and also contact with caring stable adults. For us, school was a safe space.

Right now she's in preschool. She'll start kindergarten next fall. If I get my state's Standard Possession Order with me as the custodial parent, he'll have her every Thursday evening and every 1st, 3rd, and 5th (if there is one) weekend a month. So he'll have her more weekends than me, and I'll have her more weekdays than him. That still bothers me a bit. All those weekends alone with him.

Her preschool teachers are great, though. She seems to really like school, and they teach her good things about how to treat other people.

I'm actually reminded of an incident that happened maybe a couple of months ago. At preschool they have something called a "Kindness Pledge." One day, a couple of days after D4 witnessed her uBPDdad blow up at me agin, she brings this construction paper collage she had made to me when I was in the living room with her dad. She says it's a "kindness contract" like they have at school, and she signed it and recited the Kindness Pledge, and she wanted Mama to sign it next, but "Dada doesn't get to sign it because Dada is mean and starts fights."

Of course this made Dada freak out and blow up again, and told D4 that it was really mean of her to exclude him from things, and ended up storming out of the house and slamming the door while D4 buried her head in a pillow on the couch, thinking she was in trouble now.

She can tell that the way Dada acts towards me isn't OK, even at such a young age. I'm actually impressed, but I'm sure it causes a lot of cognitive dissonance in her little mind that her own father isn't acting the way that her teachers at school say that people should act.

[ForeverDad]

When I mentioned this to my therapist the other day though, she said she thinks if I had waited, by then I would have been "a shell of a person," and it would have just been harder for me to gather up the strength to leave at all.

And if you had waited years more, that would have been more exposure for your daughter not only to his unlimited acting out but also years more to seeing an example of her mother appeasing and trying to excuse father's behavior.

If anyone knows of any children's books or TV shows where one parent is mentally ill and abusive, let me know, because I haven't found any yet.

Sometimes here we've mentioned how helpful it is to imagine an invisible shield or an invisible umbrella to protect ourselves from the impact of others' hurtful words and behavior.  Several years ago we reviewed An Umbrella for Alex by Rachel Raskin-Shoot, MS, PsyD.  It is notable because the text to read with the children doesn't include mental health diagnostic terms.  I noticed that Amazon offers to sell it combined with The Weather House: Living with a Parent with Borderline Personality Disorder and Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent.

And I'm getting anxious about this upcoming Temporary Orders hearing, even though my lawyer is confident that they will give me primary custody.

My two temp orders (separation and divorce process) were almost word for word alike.  They defaulted to mother getting "custody", likely for simplicity sake (not wanting to deal with contested joint custody issues) since the court claimed to know nothing about either parent.

Also be aware the initial hearing is quite brief, mine were scheduled for a half hour.  So any issues raised need to be concise and in priority order.  (I once made a list of issues but grouped them by category and never had time to get to the important ones at the end of the list.

We hope you have archived the concerning texts and emails.  Print them out and bring them with you just in case needed to support your requests.  Print for yourself and your lawyer the top issues and requests... you as primary parent, you with majority time, you with decision making (or tie breaker) for disputed decisions, you having court's approval for child's counseling (play therapy), etc.

Why strategize for a "less bad" temp order?  Because courts and lawyers assume the "temp order" will be temporary.  The problem is that our sort of divorce cases can take longer than most.  For example, mine took two years - and neither court nor lawyers were interested in modifying the temp order.  It was agony - though now faded into the past.

[Gerda]

Thanks so much for the children's book recommendations, ForeverDad!

I've been spending my weekends without D4 organizing my "evidence" like texts and emails. It's very depressing and emotionally draining, so I hope it will be worth it in the end.

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks so much for the children's book recommendations, ForeverDad!

I've been spending my weekends without D4 organizing my "evidence" like texts and emails. It's very depressing and emotionally draining, so I hope it will be worth it in the end.

That's good.  And practice mentally what you'll say to your daughter when these things continue - because they will continue.

Don't be surprised by that... expect it.  This is just who he is and what he does.  Your daughter will benefit over time from seeing you compartmentalize his nonsense and move on from it, rather than being shocked and surprised by it. 

Assuming you get primary custody, the battle is mostly won.  There's only so much he can do, and none of it is material.

You'll be the primary custodian.  your daughter lives with you and visits him; you'll decide her school.  you'll be the "anchor" and there's not much he can do about that. 

[Gerda]

Assuming you get primary custody, the battle is mostly won.  There's only so much he can do, and none of it is material.

You'll be the primary custodian.  your daughter lives with you and visits him; you'll decide her school.  you'll be the "anchor" and there's not much he can do about that. 

I really hope I will get primary custody, but I'm going to worry about it until that actually happens. My lawyer seems confident that will happen, but I don't really trust my lawyer much after she botched serving my H with papers. Looking back at past texts and emails from my H, I found some accusing me of child abuse and threatening that if I divorce him, he's going to do whatever it takes to get sole custody of D to "protect her" from me.

And now D's been saying things like "Why do I get to spend more time with you than with Dada?" and "Dada says that his house is my real home because I've lived there since I was a baby," which lets me know that he's been talking about custody-related issues with her. I worry that he's trying to win D over to his side, so he can somehow argue that D wants him to get primary custody.

I'm feeling especially bad about it today because ever since he had D last weekend, she's been acting terribly with me. She told me a couple of times that she doesn't love me anymore and wants to be with Dada for a long time.

I'm trying really hard to not let these things get to me, but they're still getting to me.

[kells76]

I really hope I will get primary custody, but I'm going to worry about it until that actually happens. My lawyer seems confident that will happen, but I don't really trust my lawyer much after she botched serving my H with papers. Looking back at past texts and emails from my H, I found some accusing me of child abuse and threatening that if I divorce him, he's going to do whatever it takes to get sole custody of D to "protect her" from me.

And now D's been saying things like "Why do I get to spend more time with you than with Dada?" and "Dada says that his house is my real home because I've lived there since I was a baby," which lets me know that he's been talking about custody-related issues with her. I worry that he's trying to win D over to his side, so he can somehow argue that D wants him to get primary custody.

That stuff is so hard to hear. My H's kids' mom and stepdad would also engage in the "who's the real family" competition. So hurtful.

When D4 says things beginning with "Dada says ___________________", or "Why do I/why do you______________", I think you have some options for validating responses that take D4 out of the middle of the conflict:

"How did you feel when Dada said ______?"

"What do you think about ______________?"

"Why do you ask, honey?"

What D4's dad is doing is prioritizing his own feelings above hers. He's creating an invalidating environment and pulling her into adult conflicts.

The solution isn't "equal and opposite" force from you, as that perpetuates the conflict over and involving the child. "Dad says X? Well that isn't true, let me tell you that Not X is true." It also communicates to D4 that how she feels can't be seen or prioritized by either parent.

One way out is through pausing, taking a breath, and starting any interaction about "Dada says" by pivoting to focusing on her feelings. At some point later you may have an opportunity to "clarify" but it seems like the top priority is giving her a safe place to talk about how she feels when she hears that stuff.

...

If there are any books she really likes or shows she watches, I'd encourage you to find content/situations in there to talk about with her. When it's a neutral/separate situation it can be a lot easier for kids to have longer discussions about the dynamics. If she's into Bluey or My Little Pony those are good ones.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I'm feeling especially bad about it today because ever since he had D last weekend, she's been acting terribly with me. She told me a couple of times that she doesn't love me anymore and wants to be with Dada for a long time.

I'm trying really hard to not let these things get to me, but they're still getting to me.

this is bad.  Document it, and call your attorney about it right away. 

If I can say anything reassuring, it's to reiterate what I said before, that your BPDxh is going to behave like this, and it's something you just have to get through, but you will get through. 

Be sure to not get into it with your daughter, but reassure her and allow her to see that her beliefs can be different that her father's.  And redirect her to fun activities with mom.  Don't dwell on negativity.  This is consistent with what my own Daughter's Therapist had advised me - that kids are more perceptive than we give them credit for, and they'll figure things out eventually, based on their own experience.  And also that if one parent is giving a kid advice contradictory to that kid's own experience, they'll only lose credibility as a parent.  Their kid will grow up and know they can't trust them. 

As a parent in this sort of situation, my takeaway was that I should be helping my kid see things as they are, not arguing with my ex- vicariously through them. 

[ForeverDad]

This in an excerpt from a topic "Share the dumbest allegation made against you".  I listed two examples, then ended with this paragraph how T-Bone was helped to figure out his dilemma.  (You can follow the link to read everything.)

So I pondered how to explain to my young son what lies were.  I tracked down a Clifford the Big Red Dog book titled "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  That was helpful.

[Gerda]

That stuff is so hard to hear. My H's kids' mom and stepdad would also engage in the "who's the real family" competition. So hurtful.

When D4 says things beginning with "Dada says ___________________", or "Why do I/why do you______________", I think you have some options for validating responses that take D4 out of the middle of the conflict:

"How did you feel when Dada said ______?"

"What do you think about ______________?"

"Why do you ask, honey?"

What D4's dad is doing is prioritizing his own feelings above hers. He's creating an invalidating environment and pulling her into adult conflicts.

The solution isn't "equal and opposite" force from you, as that perpetuates the conflict over and involving the child. "Dad says X? Well that isn't true, let me tell you that Not X is true." It also communicates to D4 that how she feels can't be seen or prioritized by either parent.

Yes, this makes sense. It's hard, though, since the knee-jerk reaction would be to respond with "no that's not true." I have been trying hard to respond with "what do you think?" or something like that instead.

Bluey is a great show, but I started getting depressed while watching it because I started getting jealous of Chili because her husband is such a great dad and they have such a healthy relationship.

[kells76]

I feel you on the "I'm depressed my family unit isn't like Bluey's" vibe   totally relatable! I heard Daniel Tiger might be another good show for that age range.

Our intuitive reactions -- you describe them well as "knee-jerk" -- are so familiar but so ineffective when BPD is in play. Whether the pwBPD is "trying" to be manipulative/dysfunctional or not doesn't really matter because the dynamic is the same whether intentional or no. It's really playing a whole different game to try to parent supportively/appropriately when the other parent may have a PD. Like -- we have to get off the football field of "knee jerk, normal" parenting and go all the way to the tennis courts.

Have you had a chance to read or watch any of Dr. Craig Childress' stuff yet? He does a good job of not just summarizing "this is your family dynamic" but moving on to "and here is the unexpected way you can work with your child's criticisms/complaints".

While his article on "Ju-­jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position" focuses more on when you're the target of blame of both the other parent and your child, the general structures for communicating with a confused child remain the same.

If you have the time, take a look. It can help you now and prepare you for if your D's dad escalates his blaming.