At loss as how to leave.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi,
I'm not new to bpdfamily, just took some time out as I started to feel overwhelmed by the posts, and found myself unable to write in any clear way about what was happening with me.
I live with my dBPDh of 10yrs and our 8yr old son who has a new (within the last year) diagnosis of ASC1 (used to be dx as Aspergers).
The last four years have been brutal for all of us because of my husbands rapidly cycling periods of dysregulation and psychosis. He has been hospitalised four times since 2013, and has been to prison twice, both times mental health related. He is currently on 16 months probation running alongside a Community Treatment Order.
 I am posting because I don't want to do this anymore and haven't for about the last 18 months but I feel absolutely trapped emotionally and physically in a cycle of rescuing and trying to make better that which is not fixable, in order to ensure our living situation remains calm and stable.
I was reading a novel which made reference to Sisyphus, I too feel condemned for an eternity repeating the same actions day in day out.
I use the skills I learnt here to keep the status quo, they work. I went and got a life outside the marriage, made friends, go on holidays, got support for our son, but I can't leave.
My husband is a high conflict personality and has very limited social skills, he has made many false accusations over the years and would think nothing of saying terrible things about me as a parent. He feels he has nothing to loose, loosing contact with his son would mean nothing to him.
There is no abuse, he is able to be with our son in a meaningful way and our son adores him. It is worth saying that I never leave our son with his father I haven't done since 2013, he is not capable of keeping him safe.
We live in social housing here in the UK it is a lifelong joint tenancy, I would like to stay put and cause as little upset to our son as possible.
I want to know is it possible to say 'I want you to leave' without all hell breaking loose. I have said it in conversational ways over the last few months, but I know he won't leave, it says I am trying to control him when I try and talk.
I want to protect myself and my son because when my husband is dysregulated he I believe is capable of anything.
I am stuck, the fault is with me, I am giving off mixed messages, but I can't sit down and have a conversation with my husband he is not capable of having that conversation... .and yet I keep trying.
He dysregulated last Friday because of lack of sleep. The trigger, I asked him if he could put the bin out for me as it was too heavy and he started screaming that I was attacking him. He then phoned the mental health team and started screaming down the phone that I was sexually abusing him. I tried to get him a respite bed but there were none and the nurse I spoke to said the only problem they could see was marital conflict. I wanted to say he was a stab vest and dresses like a soldier, marches around the local area believing he is the Home Guard, is this marital conflict too, but there is no point because no one is listening. He masks it really well.
I am rambling I know I am.
Can I detach whilst still living with him, what might that look like in practice? Do I stop doing the things I do for him, do I stop my involvement in his mental health care, do I step away completely from all of this as a starting to point to leaving?

[sweetheart]

Hi,
I'm not new to bpdfamily, just took some time out as I started to feel overwhelmed by the posts, and found myself unable to write in any clear way about what was happening with me.
I live with my dBPDh of 10yrs and our 8yr old son who has a new (within the last year) diagnosis of ASC1 (used to be dx as Aspergers).
The last four years have been brutal for all of us because of my husbands rapidly cycling periods of dysregulation and psychosis. He has been hospitalised four times since 2013, and has been to prison twice, both times mental health related. He is currently on 16 months probation running alongside a Community Treatment Order.
 I am posting because I don't want to do this anymore and haven't for about the last 18 months but I feel absolutely trapped emotionally and physically in a cycle of rescuing and trying to make better that which is not fixable, in order to ensure our living situation remains calm and stable.
I was reading a novel which made reference to Sisyphus, I too feel condemned for an eternity repeating the same actions day in day out.
I use the skills I learnt here to keep the status quo, they work. I went and got a life outside the marriage, made friends, go on holidays, got support for our son, but I can't leave.
My husband is a high conflict personality and has very limited social skills, he has made many false accusations over the years and would think nothing of saying terrible things about me as a parent. He feels he has nothing to loose, loosing contact with his son would mean nothing to him.
There is no abuse, he is able to be with our son in a meaningful way and our son adores him. It is worth saying that I never leave our son with his father I haven't done since 2013, he is not capable of keeping him safe.
We live in social housing here in the UK it is a lifelong joint tenancy, I would like to stay put and cause as little upset to our son as possible.
I want to know is it possible to say 'I want you to leave' without all hell breaking loose. I have said it in conversational ways over the last few months, but I know he won't leave, it says I am trying to control him when I try and talk.
I want to protect myself and my son because when my husband is dysregulated he I believe is capable of anything.
I am stuck, the fault is with me, I am giving off mixed messages, but I can't sit down and have a conversation with my husband he is not capable of having that conversation... .and yet I keep trying.
He dysregulated last Friday because of lack of sleep. The trigger, I asked him if he could put the bin out for me as it was too heavy and he started screaming that I was attacking him. He then phoned the mental health team and started screaming down the phone that I was sexually abusing him. I tried to get him a respite bed but there were none and the nurse I spoke to said the only problem they could see was marital conflict. I wanted to say he was a stab vest and dresses like a soldier, marches around the local area believing he is the Home Guard, is this marital conflict too, but there is no point because no one is listening. He masks it really well.
I am rambling I know I am.
Can I detach whilst still living with him, what might that look like in practice? Do I stop doing the things I do for him, do I stop my involvement in his mental health care, do I step away completely from all of this as a starting to point to leaving?

[Larmoyant]

Hi sweetheart, you’re not rambling in the least. You have a lot to deal with and my heart goes out to you. I’m not sure if it would be wise to stop doing all those things whilst you still live with him. I would imagine, given his clear mental health problems, that it might exacerbate the situation and could possibly make things worse for you. Is it possible for you to talk with a local domestic violence agency? Regardless of what the mental health team say you are clearly the target for some serious dysregulation and need to protect yourself and your son. You do not have to be in a physically abusive relationship to seek help from DV Agency. As for your joint tenancy, it sounds unlikely that he’ll be the one to leave so you need to know what your rights are. The Citizen’s Advice Bureau can advise you. I know you are worried about the disruption for your son, and no doubt there will be some in the short term, but long term it may well be for the best.  Can I ask have you any family support?   

[sweetheart]

I have really good family support, it's took me ages to be open about how bad things had become with my husband.
I also have regular weekly support with a carers advocate who has been involved with me for the last six years.
In part the failings of the mental health service to fully understand the dynamics of the disorder have compounded the split that exists inside my husband. If when he dysregulated he got his respite bed as planned it would make so much difference.

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm glad that the tools you learned a while back have helped at least some, and that you've found some stability for yourself in your life outside of the chaos in your r/s! That doesn't make any of this easier, but it does give you some strength to deal with it, at least.

My husband is a high conflict personality and has very limited social skills, he has made many false accusations over the years and would think nothing of saying terrible things about me as a parent. He feels he has nothing to loose, loosing contact with his son would mean nothing to him.

It sounds like leaving with your son will be difficult... .and will probably have some real risk of violence or injury.

It sounds like getting him to move out will be even harder, and probably will involve legal actions instead of a "reasonable conversation" with him.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you are ready to move out (and perhaps divorce) or not. Not an easy choice, but you are the one to make it. If you do choose to do this, I'd recommend keeping as quiet and as "normal" with your H as you can, while you make plans for how best to do it.

Whether you plan to go or not, I'd recommend talking to a local DV agency as  Larmoyant did--they should be able to help you understand your options, especially what (legal) options you have with your social housing joint tenancy.

For me, at least, knowing what the choice to go would look like would help me decide.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey sweetheart, Is it possible for you and your son to move in with family, at least on a temporary basis?  That might be an interim plan while you sort things out.  If not family, perhaps a close friend?  I'm sorry to learn what you are going through.

LuckyJim

[sweetheart]

I was thinking today that what keeps me stuck is not wanting to give up my lovely home. I know it's just a house, but my husband has no regard for it and it is everything I ever wanted.
I know I can leave I am financially secure, I took my work pension early when I was 50. When my husband ended up in prison the first time I was so shocked I thought I have to make contingency plans, and having the option of taking my work pension early took away a lot of worry.
I noticed today since his most recent dysregulation because the mental health team believed him saying I was the cause of his problem that this has emboldened him and he was verbally abusive to me and really mean in front of our son. He wouldn't help me put a rail up that had fallen down, I couldn't manipulate the rail as I have arthritis in my hands and no real strength, so he just ridiculed me and said do it yourself. This is new. He senses I think that I feel trapped, and this gives him power to do as he pleases.

I emailed a solicitor I have used in the past today to ask to meet and discuss my options around all of this. I know if I leave the tenancy I will be rehoused, but I won't be able to stay in the area, the risks would be too high.

I am away in Europe with my son for the weekend, but I intend to find out what leaving looks like when I come back. I never considered leaving before I truly believed he would leave. As you say Grey Kitty, having a reasonable conversation has never really been possible, but in wanting to stay I kept trying.

Being without him holds no fear for me, leaving terrifies me.

[formflier]

but I intend to find out what leaving looks like when I come back. I never considered leaving before I truly believed he would leave.

   

I think you are on the right track.  Have several conversations with several professionals.  See if there is a way you can privately keep notes and write out the plan.

Also a way to privately write out "what if" questions... .whenever the pop in your head.

I use google drive for this... .of course... have a strong password and boundaries around access.

My first thought is that your most likely course of action is to get all the "leaving things" ready... .and then wait.  pwBPD usually repeat past behavior.  So... .I would imagine it is very likely he will end up out of the house and either in prison or some sort of treatment facility.

I would specifically talk to the lawyer (I know you call them something different... .solicitor is what I believe you use) about how you go about keeping him out of the house... .if he leaves for a reason like that.

Practically speaking... .I think it far more easier and less traumatic to accomplish something like that (keeping him from returning) than to get rid of him (kicking him out... .when he can claim he is "being perfect" or "fixed"

Last:  I would find a plan that allows you to remain in the building (best to use "home" that you currently live in now.  You are obviously fond of it... .that matters. 

   

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Being without him holds no fear for me, leaving terrifies me.

  That's really tough.

  It is also a good instinct. I don't know that your situation is at risk of becoming full domestic violence... .but for people in abusive / DV situations, I know that leaving *IS* a big risk.

Properly planned out, and done with the right resources, it really should be OK.

Do be careful, line up your resources, and feel free to post here for help refining your plan.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I read your post, and I am so sorry you find yourself in that situation.  I have thought often how Sisyphus was a fitting model.  No matter the effort one puts in, and the achievement that follows, in a short time, the same endless plight returns.  It fits the way we suffer from BPD. 

If the only thing that really is keeping you is the house, I understand too.  I may face a divorce of my own volition, but, I don't want to lose the house.  My kids have incredible opportunities and adventures on our property - and I've planted and curate the best peach trees I've ever had - seriously, I'm taking them with me if I leave or lose the house!

That said, I know how hard it is to really contemplate leaving.  For me, it's the mix of good that makes it hard.  I know it's a long an difficult decision.  I pray you'll find support - and find a time that you're sure of what to do to get to better health and sanity.

If I go first, come take a peach tree

[sweetheart]

That said, I know how hard it is to really contemplate leaving.  For me, it's the mix of good that makes it hard.  I know it's a long an difficult decision.  I pray you'll find support - and find a time that you're sure of what to do to get to better health and sanity.

If I go first, come take a peach tree

You are right leaving is going to be a slow process. It is something I will have to do carefully. I believed for a long time I would find the space for 'that conversation,' I kept causing mini dysregulations everytime I spoke to him.
There is very little good left in our relationship because we are now just two people who live alongside each other in the same house. There is no intimacy or closeness my husband is no longer capable of this he is so lost in his own world.

formflier you are right there is every possibility that something will happen again with the police. My husband has become the person that I would cross the road to avoid and his appearance is like a magnet for trouble even though he is constantly in a state of fear trying to avoid people he looks suspicious and scary.

LuckyJim my family and friends are supportive but outside of an emergency it would be too hard to live with them even for a short time. My family brings it's own emotional complications. 

I am always torn because my husband has no friends and is estranged from his family, I know this is FOG, but I have a lot of compassion for his suffering and want to be kind and gentle in leaving too. It matters that I cause him as little pain as possible.

[Lucky Jim]

I am always torn because my husband has no friends and is estranged from his family, I know this is FOG, but I have a lot of compassion for his suffering and want to be kind and gentle in leaving too. It matters that I cause him as little pain as possible.

Hey sweetheart, You sound like a kind person and I'm sure that you will be gentle about parting ways.  Your compassion shows that you have a warm heart.  Nevertheless. that your H has no friends and is estranged from his family is his problem, not yours.  Only he can change that, not you.  You might want to review the Serenity Prayer if you get confused.

LuckyJim

[sweetheart]

LuckyJim I do know it's his problem  but that stuff has a sneaky way of hooking at my heart and I have a lot of sadness for how things turned out.
 My husband being alone won't stop me from what I want to do. X

[sweetheart]

I received a reply from the solicitor today, and he is happy to see me and discuss what has been happening. I have used him twice before for legal advice. He knows me and our history well. I first saw him two years ago when my husband made some false accusations about me that were referred to Adult Safeguarding Services.
I am aiming for a number things from going to see him:-

1. A plan to protect myself and indirectly my son from the fallout of my husbands false accusations, projections and persecutory beliefs when he is dysregulated. The plan will cover being with him, and then when I am not living with him, as I believe the latter will potentially escalate his high conflict personality, paranoia and psychosis. If the Community Mental Health Team refuse to understand that these areas are all an intrinsic part of his mental illness, then by colluding with my husband, I am inadvertently placed at increased risk from his behaviour. If professionals believe that my husbands presentation is just due to 'relationship difficulties' I am also at risk of being referred to Social Services for failure to emotionally protect my son. We are known to them as my husbands behaviours outside the house have put us as a family on their radar.

2. To work out a way if at all for me to keep my home.
3. To possibly complain within the Carers Act about the CMHT not safeguarding us as family and therefore placing me and my son at increased risk of harm. Trying to force their hand given that my husband is diagnosed and yet they are not doing what is set out in his care plan and Community Treatment Order which is legally binding. Specialist forensic referrals and psychology have been asked for, but they are procrastinating because when last seen my husband presented as stable.

If you can think of anything else I should be looking at or asking, if you think I shouldn't be bothering with complaining. Any thoughts at all on any aspect of this would be much appreciated.

[Cat Familiar]

Sweetheart,
I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this and the officials seem blinded to the reality you're facing.  

It seems that you're looking at this very clearly and are in a position to describe the situation well to your solicitor.

You've spent plenty of time trying to work within the confines of your husband's mental illness. Now you are realizing that, wishful thinking aside, it's never likely to improve. That's a hard realization to have, but it's the first step to creating more options and freedom for yourself and your son.

And though you've been able to endure all the misfortunes with your husband all these years, I can see you want to protect your son from future issues, and rightfully so.

You are doing the right thing and I pray for you.

Cat

[sweetheart]

Hello Cat,   thank you.
My biggest realisation is that I can't rush this, I have to have a plan. And yes without clinical expertise and awareness from mental health professionals there is no chance for my husband and by default no chance for our family. 

[Grey Kitty]

My biggest realisation is that I can't rush this, I have to have a plan.

Yeah, this is likely to go a lot worse if you don't plan it out well.

Can we help you with that?

And yes without clinical expertise and awareness from mental health professionals there is no chance for my husband and by default no chance for our family.

Please remember--you can make a good future for yourself. And you have a lot of opportunity to make things better for your son as well. When it comes to your husband, you can help a bit, but your ability to make a good future for him is very limited. He is an adult and makes his own choices, and ultimately will have to live with the consequences of them.

I'd suggest you plan for things that will protect you and your son from your H's dysregulations... .and do your best not to make things worse for him, but watch for your desire to protect him from the consequences of his own actions.

[sweetheart]

The desire to rush in and protect is so v hard to resist, I have been doing it for so long. I posted on another board about stopping doing this at the recent suggestion of my care support worker. (Part of the plan.) She has been supporting me and in our family's lives for the last six years.
She has suggested that when something happens with my husband again and it will, that she is going to raise a safeguarding alert for him. Unlike the inaction of mental health services, it brings his behaviour to the attention of Adult Protective Services who then are duty bound to assess the situation. She is going to do this everytime he seriously dysregulates.

When Childrens Services assessed me last year when my husband was in prison for carrying weapons, they made it clear that I had to have in place a Safety Plan for when he becomes unwell,(I do have one, I leave with s8 and stay with my family) and that I had to be seen to making sure that any problems were visible, and that I was alerting services to any changes in his mental state.

I have already decided that if my h is picked up again for carrying weapons then I am going to refuse to have him back home, I have decided to do this if he goes into hospital as well. I feel so guilty knowing that I will do this, it won't stop me from doing it, but it makes me sick to my stomach.

Currently I am validating were appropriate, not offering suggestions or solutions (which is my way). I have also withdrawn physically from him, I no longer sleep in our bedroom as this was triggering him, he felt as though I was keeping taps on him. He is ok with this because he has become v solitary in his compulsive behaviours (unpacking and packing a survival rucksack) and likes to do this in private for hours on end.

I am trying to adapt BIFF in my interactions so that everything stays stable. My son and I were away for a long w/e and my h phoned and text us regularly and was rational and loving, chatty even. Bizarre. It's the same when he's in prison and hospital he reverts back to being stable and communicative, loving and caring. I'm don't feel wrong footed by this but it's just an unusual dynamic.

I'm meeting with my solicitor to put a plan in place the week after next. What I want to know is shall I bother to ask him to write to my husbands mental health team outlining their failure to provide the agreed respite care when my h requests it, thereby putting my son at increased risk because of my h's dysregulated behaviour or just not bother and focus on me?

[Grey Kitty]

  Geez, that sounds tough to live with!

  As you describe it, he seems to cope better with a bit of distance from you. (Separate bedrooms) Living separately from him with S8, but still trying to see him and stay in his life within the limited amount he can handle might be better for him than what you are doing now.

NOTE: I don't mean that he would respond well to the change of you moving out or kicking him out... .but once he adjusted to the "new normal" it might be better for him too.

[sweetheart]

Yes I have thought this for a while now, that it would be possible and better for us to be together but live apart. I kept trying recently, over the last few months, to offer this up as a suggestion but of course I unwittingly kept triggering him.

I am not looking for this as a solution to stay together, but realistically he will probably always be in our lives, he has managed to the very best of his ability to be the best father he can be. I appreciate how crazy that must sound to everyone given what has happened around and to my h. I have however used every resource, skill, plan, you name it  available to us to protect my son from what has gone on. My h has never once dysregulated directly at our son, and a good 75% of the real crazy has taken place thankfully outside the house. And I haven't left my son in his fathers care since before he became unwell four years ago. My son is completely aware that his father has a mental illness, and is aware of how this affects his dads mood and behaviours (my son has a therapist and attends a Young Carers support group,and I have kept his life as normal as possible ) but because my son holds all that is good for my h their relationship has survived virtually intact.

I know though that my sons life would be better without having to worry about his dad because he sees him becoming unwell, I don't want our son to be exposed to this illness long term.

He was a changed man when he came home from prison the first time, he was unwell before he went in there and looked after on the hospital wing because there were no forensic beds. He has never returned to his previous level of functioning. He is trapped within a perpetual fight/flight existence that teeters always on the edge of active psychosis. I spent 20 years in mental health as a clinician and never have I seen such a devastating, all pervasive illness.

[Cat Familiar]

No matter how much you try to plan for all the contingencies that may arise, there's always something that will cause you to change your strategy on the fly.

When I finally pulled the plug on my first dysfunctional marriage to a man who was highly unstable, erratic and violent--I hadn't  premeditated the circumstances, but one day it got to a point where I could do nothing other than what I did. It was a moment of "radical honesty" for me and I told him exactly the truths I had been keeping from him all those years to protect him from knowing just how mentally ill I thought he was.

I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this, but in my case it worked out. It was so utterly shocking to him to know that I had seen through his veneer a long time ago.

I guess I'm telling you this because I was stuck in paralysis through analysis. I knew what I had to do, but I was so afraid of hurting him or inciting him to violence. It was sort of a shock when I found myself saying the things I had suppressed for so many years, but it was the absolute truth and he knew it.

Once said, I was on my way to being free. And I've never, not for a moment, regretted my choice.

[sweetheart]

I hear you loud and clear Cat, I am procrastinating good and proper day in day out.
Fear is keeping me stuck,
Fear of Children's Services being involved in our lives again
Fear of false accusations, lies and distortions that he will increase if I initiate the split
Services believing him as they have before so I got a solicitor involved, even worse Children's Services believing them.
Today he said I'm going to tell Children's Services what a bad mother you are, because it was my fault he took all today's medication because I 'ignored' him yesterday. (I wasn't in yesterday)
So whilst I am stuck fast with fear, I am pouring over ways to get out, analysing  all my options continuously, but at the same time doing nothing.
Everytime I say let's split up, agree with him wanting to leave he will say where the f@&* am I meant to go. He then packs, and sleeps rough and comes back the next day. He will not stop and sort anything out with me apart from creating masses of chaos.
I don't want to leave my home either, which he knows so I am enduring increasing amounts of verbal abuse. 

[formflier]

Talk to the solicitor about the use of recordings.  Are they legal in your country?  Do they help/will the insulate you against false charges, to have him on a recording threatening things like that.

FF

[sweetheart]

Thanks ff I completely forgot about personal recordings.
 It's a bit of a grey area here in the UK, but I can record for personal use and then transcripts of the recordings are admissible in court proceedings.
The bottom line is he knows I feel trapped and he has nothing to lose. I have everything to lose, my son, my home.
I will start covert recording from here on in. Thank you.
I will also talk to the solicitor so he can document what I intend to do.

[Notwendy]

Sweetheart-
 I am sorry you are having such a difficult time. I have followed your posts and you have approached your situation with compassion and grace, very much like your name. You are a sweetheart.

I don't know the answer for you, but I believe that should you choose to leave you will do it with all the compassion and grace you have shown on this board and to your spouse- and most of all to you. You deserve it too.

Should you choose to stay, your compassion and grace will be in that decision too.

All of our situations are different. I did observe a bit of this in my parents. I think there were times my father contemplated leaving my BPD mother, but she is so impaired that she would not have been able to manage on her own and this concerned him. Yet, you live in a different era- with more awareness of BPD, mental illness and more social supports for people with mental illness. In their time, mental illness was a shameful secret and there were few resources if any. This makes your choice different. My father didn't leave. However, had he chosen to, we would have supported him in his decision regardless- because we did care for him and felt he deserved the right to make this choice himself.

This isn't an easy decision. There are difficulties involved in either choice. I just want you to know that I think you are a good, strong person, and that your (sweet) heart will lead you to the right decision for you.

[Grey Kitty]

  Yes, deciding is hard in a time like this.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to start by listing all the things which would make leaving clearly the right choice for you and your son.

And also list the reasons that aren't (alone) seemingly enough to justify you leaving.

Remembering that you really do have a choice, and you are making the right one helps at tough times. At least for me.