Long-time struggler, first-time poster

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a bit long and meandering. It's my first post. I'm just looking for a bit of connection with others who have some perspective here, and perhaps a little advice. I should add that I generally get very anxious about even reading about BPD, let alone posting on boards, mostly out of concern that somehow my wife will discover it and destroy the trust we have (despite all the issues, I do think there is mutual trust). I've not shared my own feelings and observations with anyone but my daughter (below). I've tried with a relative I'm closest to, but it is hard to convey just how serious things are and I haven't wanted to burden them with the knowledge or not being able to share even with their own spouses.

Over the years (25 at this point) I've done my own research into trying to understand my wife and how she reacts to things.

Somewhere along that journey I came across Stop Walking on Eggshells, and for the first time I felt like I was beginning to understand things more clearly, though even to this day I don't like the idea of putting a label on my wife's behavior. It just feels demeaning and I'm also not a therapist.

But the behaviors and tendencies described seem to fit and I have found it helpful.

We have a 20 yo daughter, who has been my primary focus since I first began to recognize the volatility of my wife's behavior. For many years I considered the possibility of divorce mostly out of concern for my daughter but ended up not pursuing since I was worried about not getting full custody (and also the idea that I would take her from her mother, who despite issues is often very thoughtful and wants to make her happy).

Generally my wife has never been physically violent (though she had hit my daughter at different points, it was was mostly the mental impact of doing so that seemed so horrible), but the emotional damage of her actions has been severe and persistent.

Probably like many others, my wife can be funny, sweet and extremely caring. But she rarely went a day without yelling at my daughter about something. While my wife would rarely view it as "yelling", she would scold, often in very demeaning ways, and certainly in ways that would hurt a child's self esteem. As you can imagine, getting this day after day leads to my daughter having little real self-esteem today (as she herself would say).

I've struggled mightily with this as my daughter's father. What should I have done differently? My goal was to try to send a different message, show as much love as I could, and step in whenever I felt my wife was going too far (this is where I feel most guilty - I would try to step in, but get rebuked for not taking my wife's side; unless it was more serious (very angry / unreasonable), I tended to sit and monitor, then try to reassure my daughter later on, or say "Mom has a hard time managing her emotions - she does love you, but in the moment it can feel like she doesn't").

Even just writing this now I feel tremendous guilt for not doing more. My wife would get more volatile depending on how I jumped in, so I would try to keep things "moderate" (and again, only jump in if she got more extreme).

While they are rare, there have been a few times over the years my wife got violent with me. I'm bigger than she is so while I had bruises and scrapes from two times, I did not make too much of them (though in the second instance I did take photos of my arms afterwards). Other times I am genuinely afraid of, or concerned for, her, when she is extremely agitated and acts a bit crazy (example below).

My daughter is in college now. Over the years I've been increasingly open with her about what I think her mother suffers from (I've largely avoided the label and just describe emotions getting best of her). Again, I've never felt good about that, and I've shared my same concerns with my daughter (I was anxious she might mention to her mother) but she's been very mature about it. That said, I was always anxious about when I would start to talk to her about her mother. It still feels weird and does make me anxious, though not as much so as in the past.

Recently my daughter came home for the first extended break in a while (8 days). She spent the summer in her college town, partly because she does not like being judged by her mother. She has put on a lot of weight (she also confides in me she has been depressed at school and she has struggled academically - despite being very smart she has little motivation). This time home with her was both wonderful (I have not spent so much time with her in a while) and awful. I had honestly forgotten just how bad things could be with my wife in terms of how she treats my daughter. It was very very upsetting to see it all happening again. Home for 7 nights, 2 of them ended in hours of scolding, mostly about "concerns" over her weight, but devolved into general concerns, including about lack of self-esteem (yes, I get the irony - I used to joke to my daughter that if she ever became a stand-up comic she could open with "My mother used to yell at me for having low self-esteem").

When just my wife and I have been home while my daughter was at school, things have been mostly "normal". The occasional outbursts geared towards me, and of course fairly regular criticism of me doing something wrong, but mostly manageable. This past week though has been constant judging of my daughter, 2/3 calmly and 1/3 painful conversations / scolding. The last night (tonight) ended in something I also hadn't seen in a while - my wife hitting herself hard in the head and biting herself out of frustration after failing to get my daughter to say something that would make my wife feel better (like "yes, I know I need to feel better about myself so I can lose some weight").

I'm writing I think because I feel like I should start thinking about what's the best way forward when my daughter is completely on her own, and also how to make sure she gets through the next two years and can put herself on a trajectory that is good for her mental health, where she can start to build genuine self-esteem, and not have it crushed every time she comes home.

At this point my concerns are (in order):
- How do I continue to help my daughter on her path to some kind of healing? (she is seeing a therapist, which I encouraged, but finds it so-so)
- She mentioned wanting to take off her next semester, which I supported (and pointed out that both I and my wife happened to have taken off semesters from school at the same time, and also because we just needed a break from it). My wife reacted badly when my daughter first mentioned, fearing it would mean she'd never go back or worse (it was mostly emotional and not practical). I think this may be necessary, but want it to be something more positive for my daughter.
- Is there anything I can do to get my wife to see the bigger picture with my daughter, that what she needs is support, not anxious worrying, judging and scolding (yes, I realize this is the same question I have been asking myself for 20 years, so I know there isn't really an answer here)?

Thanks in advance for welcoming me and engaging with me. Still feeling anxious about posting.

[Tim2024]

This is a bit long and meandering. It's my first post. I'm just looking for a bit of connection with others who have some perspective here, and perhaps a little advice. I should add that I generally get very anxious about even reading about BPD, let alone posting on boards, mostly out of concern that somehow my wife will discover it and destroy the trust we have (despite all the issues, I do think there is mutual trust). I've not shared my own feelings and observations with anyone but my daughter (below). I've tried with a relative I'm closest to, but it is hard to convey just how serious things are and I haven't wanted to burden them with the knowledge or not being able to share even with their own spouses.

Over the years (25 at this point) I've done my own research into trying to understand my wife and how she reacts to things.

Somewhere along that journey I came across Stop Walking on Eggshells, and for the first time I felt like I was beginning to understand things more clearly, though even to this day I don't like the idea of putting a label on my wife's behavior. It just feels demeaning and I'm also not a therapist.

But the behaviors and tendencies described seem to fit and I have found it helpful.

We have a 20 yo daughter, who has been my primary focus since I first began to recognize the volatility of my wife's behavior. For many years I considered the possibility of divorce mostly out of concern for my daughter but ended up not pursuing since I was worried about not getting full custody (and also the idea that I would take her from her mother, who despite issues is often very thoughtful and wants to make her happy).

Generally my wife has never been physically violent (though she had hit my daughter at different points, it was was mostly the mental impact of doing so that seemed so horrible), but the emotional damage of her actions has been severe and persistent.

Probably like many others, my wife can be funny, sweet and extremely caring. But she rarely went a day without yelling at my daughter about something. While my wife would rarely view it as "yelling", she would scold, often in very demeaning ways, and certainly in ways that would hurt a child's self esteem. As you can imagine, getting this day after day leads to my daughter having little real self-esteem today (as she herself would say).

I've struggled mightily with this as my daughter's father. What should I have done differently? My goal was to try to send a different message, show as much love as I could, and step in whenever I felt my wife was going too far (this is where I feel most guilty - I would try to step in, but get rebuked for not taking my wife's side; unless it was more serious (very angry / unreasonable), I tended to sit and monitor, then try to reassure my daughter later on, or say "Mom has a hard time managing her emotions - she does love you, but in the moment it can feel like she doesn't").

Even just writing this now I feel tremendous guilt for not doing more. My wife would get more volatile depending on how I jumped in, so I would try to keep things "moderate" (and again, only jump in if she got more extreme).

While they are rare, there have been a few times over the years my wife got violent with me. I'm bigger than she is so while I had bruises and scrapes from two times, I did not make too much of them (though in the second instance I did take photos of my arms afterwards). Other times I am genuinely afraid of, or concerned for, her, when she is extremely agitated and acts a bit crazy (example below).

My daughter is in college now. Over the years I've been increasingly open with her about what I think her mother suffers from (I've largely avoided the label and just describe emotions getting best of her). Again, I've never felt good about that, and I've shared my same concerns with my daughter (I was anxious she might mention to her mother) but she's been very mature about it. That said, I was always anxious about when I would start to talk to her about her mother. It still feels weird and does make me anxious, though not as much so as in the past.

Recently my daughter came home for the first extended break in a while (8 days). She spent the summer in her college town, partly because she does not like being judged by her mother. She has put on a lot of weight (she also confides in me she has been depressed at school and she has struggled academically - despite being very smart she has little motivation). This time home with her was both wonderful (I have not spent so much time with her in a while) and awful. I had honestly forgotten just how bad things could be with my wife in terms of how she treats my daughter. It was very very upsetting to see it all happening again. Home for 7 nights, 2 of them ended in hours of scolding, mostly about "concerns" over her weight, but devolved into general concerns, including about lack of self-esteem (yes, I get the irony - I used to joke to my daughter that if she ever became a stand-up comic she could open with "My mother used to yell at me for having low self-esteem").

When just my wife and I have been home while my daughter was at school, things have been mostly "normal". The occasional outbursts geared towards me, and of course fairly regular criticism of me doing something wrong, but mostly manageable. This past week though has been constant judging of my daughter, 2/3 calmly and 1/3 painful conversations / scolding. The last night (tonight) ended in something I also hadn't seen in a while - my wife hitting herself hard in the head and biting herself out of frustration after failing to get my daughter to say something that would make my wife feel better (like "yes, I know I need to feel better about myself so I can lose some weight").

I'm writing I think because I feel like I should start thinking about what's the best way forward when my daughter is completely on her own, and also how to make sure she gets through the next two years and can put herself on a trajectory that is good for her mental health, where she can start to build genuine self-esteem, and not have it crushed every time she comes home.

At this point my concerns are (in order):
- How do I continue to help my daughter on her path to some kind of healing? (she is seeing a therapist, which I encouraged, but finds it so-so)
- She mentioned wanting to take off her next semester, which I supported (and pointed out that both I and my wife happened to have taken off semesters from school at the same time, and also because we just needed a break from it). My wife reacted badly when my daughter first mentioned, fearing it would mean she'd never go back or worse (it was mostly emotional and not practical). I think this may be necessary, but want it to be something more positive for my daughter.
- Is there anything I can do to get my wife to see the bigger picture with my daughter, that what she needs is support, not anxious worrying, judging and scolding (yes, I realize this is the same question I have been asking myself for 20 years, so I know there isn't really an answer here)?

Thanks in advance for welcoming me and engaging with me. Still feeling anxious about posting.

[Notwendy]

I have been in your daughter's situation. Hopefully, I can give you some insight and hope. You can't change what has already happened with your D but you can move forward and have your own relationship with her (whether you stay married or not) because she is an adult and will eventually be on her own. You are a significant person to her and can make a difference.

As to healing from what has happened- this is her path now. I am not surprised that she is mature. For much of my teen years, I looked forward to being away from home at college. I thought that a solution would be to get away from my BPD mother, and that once I was away from home, all would be well. That part was helpful but the first couple of years of college was a struggle socially and emotionally. I didn't expect that. It did get better in time.

Growing up with disordered family dynamics, a child doesn't know much different. This is our "normal". I would describe my own development as a teen as uneven. In some areas, I was more mature than my peers but in other areas- I didn't have similar experiences due to growing up in a home with different dynamics. Academically, I was capable and your D is too, but there''s more to college than academics and socially, I didn't feel I fit in with my peers. They seemed so much more secure and confident than I felt. I can understand why now, that I am older and also a parent, but I didn't understand then.

I have not been overweight but my BPD mother has been critical of my size, unrealistically, I think. I look at pictures of myself as a teen and I wasn't big but BPD mother told me I was. She also is critical of me, verbally, and emotionally abusive. My own self esteem was very low. During my freshman year I did gain the "freshmen 10-15 lbs" which is actually a common thing, but this contributed even more to my low self esteem and confirmed my mother's perception that I was "fat". I did eventually lose the freshman pounds, on my own later, but I can say that your D probably feels badly about herself right now.

Because I felt it was so hard to relate to my peers- I decided, on my own, to go to student health counseling. It may be a good thing for your D to do something different if she needs a break from academics but I would consider one away from home if it's better for her.  Perhaps a semester abroad where she may still get credit but it's experiencing a culture and language, rather than a classroom. Most colleges have study abroad programs and financial aid to help make this happen. Or some kind of teen volunteer program, or religious mission, or something safe and productive for her.

Because of the dynamics, it may be that there's less drama at home when your D isn't there. That's probably because your wife doesn't feel any competition from your D. That probably doesn't make sense to you but for my BPD mother- other females,  (mother, sister, daughter) seemed to be a source of friction for my BPD mother.

Don't underestimate your influence on your D as a role model. My perception was that it was my mother who is the problem and my father was the "good guy" and a victim of her behavior. So I didn't want to act like her and looked to him as a role model, until later when a counselor pointed my codependent and  enabling behaviors. I didn't even know these were not desirable behaviors. That was my "normal" and example of the "good" behaviors I had but they are dysfunctional too. You can actually help your D by helping yourself and changing the behaviors you role model for her.

Mostly though, your D wants your approval and unconditional love. If her mother has been critical of her, her self esteem is low. You may love her no matter what but at the moment she herself thinks she's fat and ugly. Do not comment on her weight. (my mother put my father up to doing that - so don't). Have a "Dad out with daugher" day, take her out and do something fun, just the two of you.

I know I've written a lot but I hope it's a helpful start for you. Your D will have some personal work to do on her own emotional growth- but this is on her own time and terms. On your part- don't forget to take care of yourself. For you to be able to be at your best for her, you need to do this. If you role model seeking counseling for yourself, she will see that this is a good thing to do and help both of you.

[ForeverDad]

This past week though has been constant judging of my daughter, 2/3 calmly and 1/3 painful conversations / scolding.

- How do I continue to help my daughter on her path to some kind of healing? (she is seeing a therapist, which I encouraged, but finds it so-so)

It is difficult for your daughter to return home, obviously.  Read the topics we have on Boundaries at our Tools and Skills Workshops board.  An insight there is that people with Borderline traits (pwBPD) typically resist boundaries, so instead boundaries are for us.  Good boundaries are to guide us how we respond to our boundary violations.  This perspective may be good for your daughter too.

For example, if a crushing argument is starting, your boundary can be, "Daughter and I are going to the park (or a movie, shopping, etc) and we'll return when things are calmer." Likely there will be some extreme extinction bursts but they may moderate over time once your spouse sees your new boundary isn't budging.

Could it be that your daughter may relate better to a different counselor?  Would she like you to join her in some sessions so you can find remedies together?

- Is there anything I can do to get my wife to see the bigger picture with my daughter, that what she needs is support, not anxious worrying, judging and scolding (yes, I realize this is the same question I have been asking myself for 20 years, so I know there isn't really an answer here)?

This peer support site is an excellent resource for you and your daughter.  It can be a safe place for you both, person who suffer from exposure to poor behavior and conflict.  Important: do not share this site with your wife.

Likely you cannot get your wife to see the bigger picture.  (You've tried for endless years but you didn't succeed.)  That's because BPD is a disorder most impacting to close relationships.  She can't or won't get past the emotional baggage of the relationship.  Realistic help is possible from an emotionally neutral third party such as an experienced therapist.  But many pwBPD resist therapy with intense Denial, Projection, Blaming and Blame Shifting.  It would be an uphill struggle.

[Notwendy]

Generally my wife has never been physically violent (though she had hit my daughter at different points, it was was mostly the mental impact of doing so that seemed so horrible), but the emotional damage of her actions has been severe and persistent.

I've struggled mightily with this as my daughter's father. What should I have done differently? My goal was to try to send a different message, show as much love as I could, and step in whenever I felt my wife was going too far (this is where I feel most guilty - I would try to step in, but get rebuked for not taking my wife's side; unless it was more serious (very angry / unreasonable), I tended to sit and monitor, then try to reassure my daughter later on, or say "Mom has a hard time managing her emotions - she does love you, but in the moment it can feel like she doesn't").


I'm writing I think because I feel like I should start thinking about what's the best way forward when my daughter is completely on her own, and also how to make sure she gets through the next two years and can put herself on a trajectory that is good for her mental health, where she can start to build genuine self-esteem, and not have it crushed every time she comes home.


- Is there anything I can do to get my wife to see the bigger picture with my daughter, that what she needs is support, not anxious worrying, judging and scolding (yes, I realize this is the same question I have been asking myself for 20 years, so I know there isn't really an answer here)?

I have highlighted some of what you have said. First, I think it would help you to read about the Karpman triangle and why intervening on behalf of your daughter is so difficult for you. When your wife is updset with your D, or criticing her- your wife is in victim mode. Your main role, as I imagine has been - is to be rescuer for your wife- to align and agree with her. If you attempt to "rescue" your D, you are not going along with this pattern for your wife. Not that it's OK to not intervene for your D, but it doesn't meet your wife's needs in the moment. You are in a difficult position because your wife is expecting you to choose her or your D.


Trying to smooth things over- "your mother loves you". Basically what you are saying to your D is that love is combined with abuse. If someone is abusing you- well they love you so somehow that is part of the relationship. This, along with low self esteem is a set up for your D's future relatioships. Let your D have boundaries with her mother, even if it upsets her mother.

I can understand the anxiety you feel when bringing up these topics but I commend you for reaching out, for yourself and on behalf of your daughter. Please also know that I am not being judgmental of your situation. I know how challenging it is. I know it is a big step to start to discuss these issues but by examining them, it may be possible to make a difference.

As far as a child is concerned, whether or not you divorce won't have as much of an impact as custody isn't an issue. IMHO, the best thing for your D is to become independent financially and have her own place, maybe her own family one day. She may still visit, but it would be voluntary on her part.

I think it's good that you are honest with your D about your wife but be careful to not triangulate and also not learn on your D for validation of your situation. She may be mature but emotionally she's just a girl who still needs a father. She's probably been parentified in relation to her mother, but she's still young.

Since BPD affects all relationships, your wife's relationship with your D is also dependent on her ability to manage the relationship too. Although you wish to smooth things over between them, they are both adults not and their relationship is a function of both of them. So is your relationship with your daughter.

[PeteWitsend]

...
- Is there anything I can do to get my wife to see the bigger picture with my daughter, that what she needs is support, not anxious worrying, judging and scolding (yes, I realize this is the same question I have been asking myself for 20 years, so I know there isn't really an answer here)?

...

When dealing with a pwBPD, you need to start thinking independently, not cooperatively.  Think of the result you want, and plan how to get it yourself.  The pwBPD will only sabotage things. 

They're simply not capable of engaging on these sorts of big picture, interpersonal issues like that.  Your daughter, and your relationship with her, seems to be her "pet" issue that she uses to try to control & manipulate your behavior, so it's far more likely than not she would only use any of your attempts to start a dialog around this issue as an invitation to more conflict. 

[PeteWitsend]

...
Trying to smooth things over- "your mother loves you". Basically what you are saying to your D is that love is combined with abuse. If someone is abusing you- well they love you so somehow that is part of the relationship. This, along with low self esteem is a set up for your D's future relatioships. Let your D have boundaries with her mother, even if it upsets her mother.

...

I was thinking of this point too.  Despite your good intentions here, @Tim2024, you're really invalidating what your daughter is experiencing, and possibly contributing to her self esteem issues. 

It's like you're playing good cop/bad cop against your daughter in a way.  Your wife tramples all over her, and as she looks for reassurance that those things about her aren't true, or are unduly harsh, you're excusing your wife's behavior and essentially validating her criticisms of your daughter. 

I don't really see a way to avoid conflict with your wife here, if you're going to stand up for your daughter.  Perhaps you could tell her she needs to cut it out, and you're not going to condone it by staying there and listening to it. 

As ForeverDad says, there will likely be repercussions when your wife realizes the dynamic is changing and escalates her behavior to try to force things back the way they were, but you need to stand firm.  I think you also need to consider what you're willing to tolerate; more physical abuse?  Verbal abuse? 

[Notwendy]

I don't really see a way to avoid conflict with your wife here, if you're going to stand up for your daughter.  Perhaps you could tell her she needs to cut it out, and you're not going to condone it by staying there and listening to it. 
 

There wouldn't be a way in my family. My mother sees people as "on her side" or "not her side" and with Karpan triangle dynamics, Dad's main role was as rescuer. If my mother wants something, she is persistent. It is hard to say no to her.

I think it must have been difficult to post here. It's hard thing to consider. I would encourage you to think about you and your relationship moving forward. Kids grow up and have their own homes and possibly families. It's going to mostly be you and your wife at home.

Do what you can to help your daughter become  independent. Encourage her in her studies, or a gap year time if that is best for her at the moment. I hope she continues with counseling. But also take care of yourself. That is important both to you and your daughter.