Need advice. Adult daughter with BPD is back home.

[KBug]

Hi,

I need some help. My 24 year old step daughter with BPD moved back in with us today. She's been visiting us lately and seems to be much more stable than when she has lived with us in the past. She's done some hard work with DBT and she seems to have a better balance of medications. Her goal is to save up some money to get a place with a friend. She seems to be trying really hard.

It's been about 2 years since she last lived with us. She's no longer willing to live with her mother because her mother also has BPD, and it's not a good situation for either one of them. She's lived in a cheap motel for a few weeks since she got her latest job. She built up enough courage to ask us to live with us again.

We have set some boundaries about abusive language, substance use, helping out around the house, and having a job and/or completing college. She also has to see a therapist and take her meds. She currently has a full time job. If she quits her job and isn't going back immediately to being a full time student, she's not allowed to live at our house.

Tonight is her first night back in the house. She has been reasonable and helpful, even cleaning the kitchen after dinner. My husband goes to bed early, around 9pm and I'm more of a 12am going to bed person. In the past, daughter has used this opportunity to talk to me, mostly for emotional regulation. I listen and affirm her feelings-the "that sounds really frustrating..." kind of stuff that I have learned in bpdfamily, my therapist, and through books that I have read. I have had to set boundaries in the past that I will engage in these discussions sometimes but I can't do this every night.

She has a problem with false accusations and spreading gossip about people. I think she uses it as a way to connect to people and create an us against them dynamic. She did this with me about her mother in the past. She's also done it to me and my husband. To family members and friends, she's made some serious false accusations about her father and some less serious but ugly false accusations about me in the past, as a means to connect with her mother. When she's upset about something or feeling dysregulated in some way, she will also get very accusatory and attack us verbally and emotionally. All of this is part of the reason that we asked her to leave the last time which was a couple of years ago. She reconnected with her dad a couple of months ago. She's only recently started to have non-awkward conversations with me. Even in our conversations, I can see that she's not completely reality based. I think that she convinces herself that the accusations are true.

I have worked with my therapist about when she starts coming after me with personal attacks, how to shut down the accusations against me and my husband. Basically, warn her that I don't engage in conversations focused on accusations and then if she doesn't stop, walk away, hang up, or block her cell number for a while.

However, the dynamic has changed. Tonight after her father went to bed, she started talking with me. Instead of attacking me, she's trying to pit me against my niece and her wife who also have BPD. She started talking about them and hinting around the corners about some "bad" things and trying to get me to pull the information out of her. I didn't take the bait. I just said that i was sorry that she wasn't comfortable with them and didn't ask for details. I know that they have some strong feelings about her because of accusations that she has made against them. The nieces have also made accusations against my daughter. I know that she makes things up and the nieces make things up. All three are also involved in substance abuse and bdsm.  I don't know who is telling the truth, partial truth, or lying but I'm trying to stay out of it. They are all adults at this point and make their own messes and they get to deal with the consequences. I don't want to hear about it.

My dilemma is that my daughter has just moved back in with us and I want to shut down her "intrigue" gossip. Her pattern in the past has been baiting, and then eventually telling her story even if I don't take the bait. When either I don't take sides or tell her that she and so-and-so are adults and have their own relationship which has nothing to do with me, then there's a blow up and a several month to a year of ghosting because I don't take her side. What suggestions do you have for a gentle way to say that I don't want to be in the middle of anything or to nuance the dynamic so that I can get her not to share her stories with me? I'm willing to go for the blow-up and ghosting if I need to do so because I would really rather keep out of their conflict and I want to set a boundary around not involving me in her conflicts with other people. However, if you insight or experience to share with me, I would appreciate a more finessed approach.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Wow Kbug, your daughter seems to be doing well. I really like your house rules. My diagnosed stepdaughter did not do well when she lived with us, basically because she wasn’t able to stay in school and/or work. She would sleep all day, consume pot and rot in her bed, making everyone miserable right along with her. If your daughter avoids those bad habits, I think she’s doing really well.

I understand the problem of bad-mouthing. While it may feel like “venting” to your daughter, it can be harmful and upsetting for you, and potentially toxic to family relationships. In a case like the one you describe, I often resort to what I call a three strikes rule. If she’s speaking negatively about someone with no resolution in sight, I might say, “We’re not getting anywhere, so let’s please change the topic.”  If she ignores the request and continues with her ranting, I’ll give another warning: “This conversation is too stressful, so if you continue, I’m going to have to leave/hang up.”  If she ignores you again, say, “Sorry, I’ve had enough, bye now.”  That way, she makes the choice whether to respect your wishes or not, she faces the consequences of her choice, and you extricate yourself. After a couple of conversations, I think she’ll learn to heed your warnings. Note that I make the warnings about me (my stress, my limits) and not really about her, to minimize the risk of invalidating her.

[kells76]

Welcome back, KBug 

Like CC43 mentioned, making your choices explicit to your SD can be an approach, where it's very structured and clear on your end what you're doing and how C follows B follows A. Some pwBPD do well with the "explicit" approach.

Another approach is the "indirect" approach, where instead of explaining how you don't want to be in the middle of it, or describing what you'll do when you hear blame, you can just announce that you're doing something different.

Her: "I heard your niece say XYZ, and it really hurt; have you ever heard anything like that?"

You: "You know what, I'm getting tired so I'm actually heading to bed right now. Sleep well, see you in the morning!"

That would be a total removal of JADE-ing (there's zero explanation) while still acting out your own boundaries (you don't stick around to listen when she starts in on gossip).

Some pwBPD do better when there's no explanation and no hint of blame (i.e. that she's doing something wrong when she gossips -- maybe she is, but hearing that might not be effective).

You know your SD the best, so you will have a better feel for when a direct/explicit approach will be effective, and if a more indirect approach could be better at times.

She may be doing well enough in some moments that she can hear the firm stuff; there may be other moments where you get a read on her and are like, nope, she can't process any directions/explanations, so you just announce you're going to take a shower.

...

Are there other times, when she's not gossiping, where you can more overtly "take her side" (but in a centered/balanced way ) I wonder if her core concern isn't the gossip, it's that she wants to feel "backed up". Maybe you can "reward" her with "backing her up" in other areas instead, where it's not personal (dealing with insurance, dealing with credit card companies, hearing her vent about a salesperson, etc).

It does sound like right now, she's doing pretty well. I'm glad you all have had some mostly good, mostly stable, mostly functional days together. I hope her journey to maturity continues!

[Sancho]

Hi Kbug
I think it will be hard to avoid a blow up and ghosting - only because I know my experience of BPD is there is such a need to have the other person 'on your side'.

I think Kells idea could work ie by sidestepping engagement it does avoid as far as possible the BPD person picking up being criticised etc.

There is one thing I find helpful and that is when DD is physically around me I make sure my mind is on something else, either by be engaged in some other activity, or just making sure I appear to have my mind on something else (which I make sure I do eg even thinking about rearranging the room I am in - not that I am going to do it, but it is a fun thing to do!).

Then I have a few stock generic answers eg if DD starts to talk about others something like 'So many people have challenges in their lives, don't they? I have had quite a few myself!

There was one older lady I knew who used to use the word 'Fancy!' in response to most comments!

I have found general statements quite useful because its a sort of agreement but not to do with whatever the other person is saying.

Having said that, I am however glad you are prepared for the possibility of blow up and ghosting. In the event of this, I have found some of the above also useful - in particular having my mind on something else.

[KBug]

Wow Kbug, your daughter seems to be doing well. I really like your house rules. My diagnosed stepdaughter did not do well when she lived with us, basically because she wasn’t able to stay in school and/or work. She would sleep all day, consume pot and rot in her bed, making everyone miserable right along with her. If your daughter avoids those bad habits, I think she’s doing really well.

I understand the problem of bad-mouthing. While it may feel like “venting” to your daughter, it can be harmful and upsetting for you, and potentially toxic to family relationships. In a case like the one you describe, I often resort to what I call a three strikes rule. If she’s speaking negatively about someone with no resolution in sight, I might say, “We’re not getting anywhere, so let’s please change the topic.”  If she ignores the request and continues with her ranting, I’ll give another warning: “This conversation is too stressful, so if you continue, I’m going to have to leave/hang up.”  If she ignores you again, say, “Sorry, I’ve had enough, bye now.”  That way, she makes the choice whether to respect your wishes or not, she faces the consequences of her choice, and you extricate yourself. After a couple of conversations, I think she’ll learn to heed your warnings. Note that I make the warnings about me (my stress, my limits) and not really about her, to minimize the risk of invalidating her.

Yes!  This sounds good and aligns with what has worked in the past with other issues. It's likely to help with her seeking me out most nights for co-regulation, too. I want to help her, but I can't be her therapist. It's not healthy, and she'll just end up angry with me. I've also been trying to think about how to kindly cut her off when it gets too much or unproductive. I like the focus on how I'm feeling stressed/overwhelmed/etc.

[KBug]

Hi Kbug
I think it will be hard to avoid a blow up and ghosting - only because I know my experience of BPD is there is such a need to have the other person 'on your side'.

I think Kells idea could work ie by sidestepping engagement it does avoid as far as possible the BPD person picking up being criticised etc.

There is one thing I find helpful and that is when DD is physically around me I make sure my mind is on something else, either by be engaged in some other activity, or just making sure I appear to have my mind on something else (which I make sure I do eg even thinking about rearranging the room I am in - not that I am going to do it, but it is a fun thing to do!).

Then I have a few stock generic answers eg if DD starts to talk about others something like 'So many people have challenges in their lives, don't they? I have had quite a few myself!

There was one older lady I knew who used to use the word 'Fancy!' in response to most comments!

I have found general statements quite useful because its a sort of agreement but not to do with whatever the other person is saying.

Having said that, I am however glad you are prepared for the possibility of blow up and ghosting. In the event of this, I have found some of the above also useful - in particular having my mind on something else.

This sounds good, too. I need some stock answers/responses so I don't freeze in the moment. I can shut her down by not taking the bait but responding to her.