Practical advice on detaching to separate (& co-parent): protracted or prompt?

[FindingMyGut]

My first post!  I want to say thank you to all of the people on here sharing and helping; I wish I found you/it all sooner.

An attempted brief background: my husband of 18 years shows traits of BPD/NPD. And I say traits because he is undiagnosed and in my assessment “high-functioning”; his impulsive / destructive tendencies are low but his devaluation, fear of abandonment, and manipulation are high. Although undiagnosed, I have had 1 T and 1 MC share with me their  suspicions he may have a personality disorder. That, plus reading all of these resources, has given me the validation and clarity I need.

We have both been in almost weekly individual therapy for 5 months. I have in this time been able to cut through the FOG and see the degree to which our relationship is toxic, I’ve built my self esteem, and I am “finding my gut”— learning to trust my instincts again. Both of my therapists have cautioned me against couples counselling given the evident emotional abuse and manipulation at play. And my healing has taken me to a place where I can no longer tolerate said abuse/behaviour. I now believe I deserve peace and happiness and that that will not come from this relationship.

In addition to cyclical emotional abuse (stonewalling, projecting, controlling, devaluing, etc) My husband has been physically abusive with me 4 times in 18 years (2 recently), and with my daughter 1 time (recently). So his anger/rage is relatively rare, but not completely improbable. The incident with my daughter was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. That is when I decided I was finished hoping he would get better.

As I’ve put increasing boundaries in place to protect myself (not sleeping in same room, investing in friendships/supports that he doesn’t approve of, and pursuing self care) and protect my teen daughters (being present as much as possible, buffering and diffusing tensions, teaching them tools for managing his behaviour, and validating their emotions), he has spiralled. He is threatened by me growing and finding strength, my decreased reliance on him, and my improved relationship with our kids. For a period of time, I was foolish enough to voice some of my needs in hopes of reconciling, but I have since stopped those attempts, and have also stopped JADE-ing. I notice these changes have helped to prevent or diffuse our arguments, but have done nothing in moving him to accept that our relationship is unhealthy/over. So my attempts at detachment and self care have exacerbated his insecurities. At first these actions were with intent to reconcile, but for the past 2 months (since the physical incident with my daughter) I have abandoned those hopes and have had around 5 discussions with him about separation. Sometime Les he is angry and seems to agree, but mostly they go nowhere after that … we will have follow-up talks where he blames me for my lack of compassion for his healing and then he sweeps it all under the rug as he proceeds with day to day life, inserting himself in my house projects, attempting to connect with me, and making joint future plans. So far, my attempts at detachment and self care have only inflamed him. Five discussions about separation have gone nowhere (except to blame me for my lack of compassion for his healing and then be swept under the rug as he pretends everything is fine).

I have found the following resources particularly informative, but lacking the practical advice of what the next stage of detachment looks like in real life (for a marriage, with kids).

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/carver.pdf

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/no-contact-right-way-wrong-way

Finally my question!!!  (Sorry that took so long to get to.) I’d like recommendations for resources or sharing of experiences related to HOW you separated from / went ‘no contact’  with a uBPD spouse with whom you have to coparent and clearly has no intention of “letting you go”.

Perhaps a low-conflict, amicable separation is not possible. I’m still holding hope that we could cohabitate (me in the in law suite of our home) with strict parenting time and personal boundaries in place for some time, while we sort out a divorce and allow our daughters to adapt. Is this delusional?   

Can/should I be using DEARMAN or SET to express my desire to still have an amicable relationship but be clear that I want an end to the marriage?  Is there a way to soften this blow with a slow and calculated approach?  I was initially feeling icky about being “calculated”, but my T reminded me that manipulation is done to harm, and my intentions here are the opposite - to reduce the pain for all involved, most especially our kids.

I deeply care for my husband and know it is not easy for him to live in this hell of his own making. And I want him to find peace. Do I need to give up this care? I’m afraid if I express care it will be weaponized to keep me in the marriage. (So the “support” in SET feels unsafe).

After reading so many stories, I do believe my case is “mild” … my husband has never flat out fabricated lies against me and I don’t think he would (eg. I don’t think he’d seek a restraining order or dishonour my right to shared custody); he just catastrophizes missteps or exaggerates the negatives of a truth about me to villainize me in his own mind. Based on his history of behaviour I AM preparing for the risk of episodic violence or suicidal threats/cries for help. And my thoughts are that a slow detachment would dampen these risks. While I am not in a rush situationally, my two concerns are my emotional stamina (this past year of personal healing has been exhausting, especially alongside someone is continually trying to tear me down) and the nagging feeling in my gut that I’m not being honest.

Any advice is so deeply appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. :hug

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family!  You have a lot going on and asked many excellent questions.  Since you posted in the "conflicted" forum, I'll try to give some practical advice on both staying and leaving.

First, your direct question- how do you end it with the least amount of fallout.  You have teenage kids together, so keep in mind that he's going to be in your life regardless.  Every birthday, Thanksgiving, etc you're going to have conversations about who's doing what and how it will work for everyone.  So remaining civil is very important, especially with talks of separation and potential divorce in the picture.

Why?  Because a BPDs worst fear is being abandoned, and once that happens he's not going to be the same person.  You mentioned recent violence and that's worrying; do not stay in a situation that puts you or the kids in potential harm's way.  That stuff can escalate quickly once he realizes that it's the beginning of the end, so the slow withdrawal may not work here.  If he becomes violent again, then you take the girls and leave.

Is there a relative you could stay with for a little while?  Or are you financially in a position to take the girls on a week vacation?  It would be great if you could do a "test run", and you don't even need to call it a separation.  Just pick up and get away for a bit, telling him you need some space to think.  Then you can see what happens from his side and make a more informed decision.

I said BPDs are very unpredictable in potential breakups, it could go the other way as well and he makes huge efforts to improve around the house.  I have no way to guess which way it will go, but you can't just wait on him to agree on terms because he probably never will.  The first step has to be yours because he's comfortable in the current situation and blames you for his mental illness (which hopefully you realize is a very common cop-out of holding himself responsible).

I hope that is a good start, and others will be along with resources shortly.  Good luck and please keep us in the loop.

[ForeverDad]

Although all of us who ended our relationships hoped it could be amicable, for most it became an all or nothing experience.  Of course, there are always exceptions but don't count on it.

A good factor is that you're both in therapy.  Perhaps the trained professionals can give incentives that keep the unwinding under control.  Agreed that couples counseling typically has a goal to repair the relationship.  However, do you two see anyone in an advisory/counseling status where you can express yourself and the other be helped to remain somewhat calm?

Another thought is related to the past incidents where there was abuse or some level of actionable poor behavior.  The further they are into the past the less weight such misbehaviors have in family court when it comes to deciding custody and parenting schedules.  Most here seem to have found courts ignore documented incidents older than six months before filing in court.  So a lawyer's advice may be to consider that a maximum time limit for you to decide and strategize, if you expect to raise them in a legal case.

Here's a concept that many find hard to digest, since we Nice Guys and Nice Gals are generally proud of our fair, nice and forgiving natures.  Those excellent qualities put us at a distinct disadvantage when approaching a probable overreacting adversary in court.  Sorry, court is structured in an overall adversarial framework.

I believe your sense of fairness may trip you up.  "I don’t think he’d seek a restraining order or dishonour my right to shared custody."  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) are predictably unpredictable.  Whatever else, err on the side of caution.  It's your life and your children's lives that will be impacted.

What does that mean for you?  You have to Let Go your inclination to be fair or show how fair you are.  Fairness is ignored in legal scenarios, the risk is that your fairness and niceness might gift away some of your leverage as the more stable parent.  (Besides, being overly fair or generous won't impress the court.)  So set your top priorities as yourself and your children, including your parenting.

For many of us, the separation incident was somewhat unpredictable and we were caught off guard.  How I separated... well, I was mostly unprepared, hadn't even confidentially consulted family law attorneys.  My ex had been raging that morning, stomped off and drove away.  I was fairly certain she'd still be upset when she returned a few hours later so I kept  a digital voice recorder with me.  This was before cell phones that could record.  I had to call the police and when they responded I was asked to hand over my preschooler to his mother (he refused) and "step away".  (I didn't have a lawyer but when I found one he said it is standard practice to cart away the man in a domestic dispute to end the incident.  Not fair to innocent husbands or fathers, but that's how it is usually structured.)  However it did help that I had quietly recorded the incident and had proof it wasn't me who was aggressively threatening.

So even if you can't plan out every detail of a separation in advance, do your due diligence and prepare practical strategies as best you can.

[FindingMyGut]

Is there a relative you could stay with for a little while?  Or are you financially in a position to take the girls on a week vacation?  It would be great if you could do a "test run", and you don't even need to call it a separation.  Just pick up and get away for a bit, telling him you need some space to think.  Then you can see what happens from his side and make a more informed decision.

Thank you @pook075 I have a great support system and good options for safe temporary housing.

I like the suggestion for trial time apart. I think it aligns with the article that suggests detaching and communicating how I’m struggling (and I am, but I play it down because I’m not used to listening to and giving myself what I need.)

The thought of taking the girls with me really heightens my fear though. My gut tells me that that would send him over the edge. In fairness (which I know I need to stop), I wouldn’t like the idea of him taking them abruptly either, although he wouldn’t be afraid of my reaction.

And leaving them makes me fear him taking his anger out on them.

Just imagining  these scenarios highlights my fear of triggering him and gives me insight into taking the safety planning seriously.

The first step has to be yours because he's comfortable in the current situation and blames you for his mental illness (which hopefully you realize is a very common cop-out of holding himself responsible).

Thank you, I mostly realize this but appreciate constant reminders.

[Pook075]

The thought of taking the girls with me really heightens my fear though. My gut tells me that that would send him over the edge. In fairness (which I know I need to stop), I wouldn’t like the idea of him taking them abruptly either, although he wouldn’t be afraid of my reaction.

That's a fair concern and speaking from experience, BPDs often get worse before they come to a realization that they need to focus on getting better.  For now, your husband sees his environment, his relationships, his career, etc. as the reason for his mood swings and instability.  If only this would change or that would change, then I wouldn't feel this way.

So whatever you do to suggest change in his life (trial separation, taking a week off, confronting his behavior directly, etc), he's not going to like it and push back to keep things his version of "normal".  So far, you've brought it up and didn't force the issue, so he was able to avoid the deeper conversations and pretend that those problems just aren't there. 

He genuinely believes that you're the problem, you don't love him or support him enough, and that's how he copes with this stuff (he's the hero/victim, you're the villain he's sacrificing for).  That's the initial narrative that has to change and it is not going to be pretty.  For him, it's going to be the worst day of his life and he's probably not going to hear 95% of what you say.  Instead, it's going to feel like a personal attack to belittle him.

The conversation has to take place regardless though, because you can't wait in limbo hoping for him to get better on his own.  You either need to "fix this" or think about other options.

I said all of that to say this.

You've had 5 discussions about separation.  Nothing has changed.  A 6th conversation is not likely to produce different results unless you're willing to change tactics.

Are the girls "safe" at home with him if you went away for a little while?  If you can't 100% say yes to that, then you have your answer how this has to play out.  And if you can't get there alone, talk to your therapist about a couples session where you can talk it out in a safer environment.

[FindingMyGut]

Than you @ForeverDad, I need these reality checks.

do you two see anyone in an advisory/counseling status where you can express yourself and the other be helped to remain somewhat calm?

No, I will have to consider who might be able to play this role. Perhaps his T so he feels safe and has his ongoing support

Most here seem to have found courts ignore documented incidents older than six months before filing in court.  So a lawyer's advice may be to consider that a maximum time limit for you to decide and strategize, if you expect to raise them in a legal case.

.

Hmmm. Incidents involving me have been undocumented; unless telling a T holds any weight, which I’m guessing is just “she said”. No calls to police. And unlikely to make the 6-month actionable timeframe. I will be sure to document anything that happens going forward.

The only documentation I have for the incident with my daughter is a photo of a faint bruise a day later. And her memory of it (I.e. she could testify). This is something I really struggle with, having been a victim of parental violence myself; has it made me more tolerant? more sensitive? I think both. Because it had never happened before, and he has been an otherwise incredible dad for 16years, I have decided not to factor this into custody/access considerations. If he crosses the line again or the girls express fear once they are told about our separation,  I will document or speak to a lawyer about protections for them.

… court is structured in an overall adversarial framework.

I believe your sense of fairness may trip you up.

I appreciate this hard truth. I’m finding it helpful to objectify the situations by asking myself  - if my friend or brother were in my shoes, and asked for advice, what would I suggest? Often my  response would look much more assertive against uBPDh. It’s not my job to manage his pain for him, and I have to stop protecting him from the consequences of his own actions. And I need to start thinking of this in a legal context (documentation). If fair were part of his emotional vocabulary, we wouldn’t be where we are today. So I have to accept once again, that how I wish things would be is far from reality.

 So set your top priorities as yourself and your children, including your parenting.

I’m writing this in invisible pen all over my house! And I will chuckle at the blasphemy. How dare I prioritize me! (Sorry, that probably sounds resentful/uncompassionate/angry: it is - and I accept that).

For many of us, the separation incident was somewhat unpredictable and we were caught off guard.

Thank you for sharing your story. That sounds awful, and I’m so sorry. I can completely understand the lack of predictability and why things unravel so commonly that way. Life with my uBPDh is absolutely exhausting. Just being in the same room together feels like torture. As much as I might want to prepare more or try harder, when you get hit once again while you are down, you reach a breaking point. But I find those times are when I have the most clarity; when the discomfort is beyond an ignorable threshold. When my anger is bubbling at the injustice of it all. It’s insane how tolerant we become over time. And this is their self-fulfilling prophecy. They push us until we leave and blame us for leaving! Such a sad sad process to be a part of.

[FindingMyGut]

@Pook075 your words are so validating. I’m sorry you/we all have to experience this, but I am also grateful I am not alone. What a paradox.

You've had 5 discussions about separation.  Nothing has changed.  A 6th conversation is not likely to produce different results unless you're willing to change tactics.

Are the girls "safe" at home with him if you went away for a little while?  If you can't 100% say yes to that, then you have your answer how this has to play out.  And if you can't get there alone, talk to your therapist about a couples session where you can talk it out in a safer environment.

No, I do not trust that he could manage his anger at me leaving without our daughters bearing the brunt of it in some way.This gives me insight that when I do drop the bomb, it must be when they are not home, and I need to have them under my care following that … during his unraveling. At least that much is clear/predictable. Thank you for helping me see this.

[ForeverDad]

As for taking "time away" (my court's term for vacations) ponder whether you can cast it as involving the girls such as sports, visiting their remote friends, etc.  Perhaps, just maybe, he might see it as something not for you (very triggering) but for their activities or benefit (less triggering).

By the way, one of the facets to eventually consider in obtaining a court order is time away with the kids.  My temp order didn't mention the details but their website did.  Mine was up to 3 weeks a year with a maximum of 2 weeks during any vacation.  Also, holidays and kids' birthdays default to alternating between the parents.  Of course, at that point you have family court as The Authority and it can weigh your custody and parenting concerns.  Until then he will likely feel very entitled and not respect your parental authority.  (Without a court order in place you both are considered as having equal but undefined authority.)

[Pook075]

As for taking "time away" (my court's term for vacations) ponder whether you can cast it as involving the girls such as sports, visiting their remote friends, etc.  Perhaps, just maybe, he might see it as something not for you (very triggering) but for their activities or benefit (less triggering).

I was going to post the exact same thing.  If you could say, "Aunt Debbie hurt her hip and needs someone for a few days...."  Then it's not about you at all.  Heck, it could be, "I won Taylor Swift tickets in Orlando for next weekend and I'm taking the girls since it's a once in a lifetime thing."

The goal is to get out without the explosive reaction and potential violence.  Once you're out, you can tell him the truth from a distance, and you can also tell him that you'll consider returning home if x, y, and z are met long term.

Remember, stepping away does not mean divorce, and you're not doing it to hurt him.  You're doing it to force him to be accountable.  He may threaten self-harm or cutting you off financially or a number of other things, and that's when you call the police and request a wellness check (sharing that he stated that "he's a danger to himself or others").

Everything about this stinks and it's not fair, but you must protect the girls and yourself.  It's time for the three of you to come first for a little while and be able to think with clear minds.

[ForeverDad]

One caution about reporting poor behavior, even suicidal ideation - not that reporting is bad, just that you need to be prepared for how the other may respond - is that if denied then it may end up being viewed as "he-said, she said" hearsay and largely ignored.

For example, if the police or emergency responders are called and arrive but the other denies, you would be advised to have proof of what really did transpire.  Proof would be witnesses (preferably not the kids since you don't want kids drawn into adult matters) or recordings of what was really said or threatened.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Finally my question!!!  (Sorry that took so long to get to.) I’d like recommendations for resources or sharing of experiences related to HOW you separated from / went ‘no contact’  with a uBPD spouse with whom you have to coparent and clearly has no intention of “letting you go”.

You just do it.  In my case BPDxw made things a little easier up front, because she decided "we're getting divorced" after I refused to accept any responsibility for the situation that lead to a big fight (or last as a married couple, it turned out).  She didn't think I'd go through with it, I guess, because we had reconciled once before when things got to that point, but this time I had my mental "line in the sand drawn" and had already prepared for the divorce (I had seen an attorney, had a storage unit for my stuff rented, had priced out local homes to rent, etc.). 

So after she said "we're getting divorced then" I just moved out and filed for divorce.  During this period of time, BPDxw made any number of inquiries and demands on me, and I made the decision to ignore them completely, unless a response was necessary. 

I'll note that this was pretty consistent with the advice in books on the topic (such as Bill Eddy's on managing high-conflict people) and the advice my D's therapist gave me: only reply to what's necessary, and ignore the editorial, and ignore anything that's not. 

The therapist joked "if you find yourself going through the same behavior patterns after the divorce as you did during the marriage, you wasted your money on the divorce."

So you can ignore insults, ignore demands to admit you were or were not the problem or whatever, ignore demands to do anything not required in the temporary orders (i.e. the legally defined rights of each party while the divorce is proceeding in court), or in the divorce decree (after it's finalized), and what not. 

I only respond to things like "Will you be able to take [daughter] to tennis this weekend?" or "Can you make sure she returns the signed form to their teacher?"  I ignore any insults or allegations from her completely.

Perhaps a low-conflict, amicable separation is not possible. I’m still holding hope that we could cohabitate (me in the in law suite of our home) with strict parenting time and personal boundaries in place for some time, while we sort out a divorce and allow our daughters to adapt. Is this delusional?   

It's unlikely he would respect any such boundaries during this time, and his behavior would likely get more extreme, as he deals with his personal anxieties and emotions over the realization that the marriage is ending.

In my own experience, prior to moving out, I had tentatively agreed on some things with BPDxw, like what & how we'd tell our daughter.  Well, she went behind my back to wake our daughter up in the middle of the night and tell her that I was leaving the family because I didn't want to be a father anymore...

so yeah, I think you can just expect the same sort of behavior if you try to reason with them.  They'll just take advantage of you.

Can/should I be using DEARMAN or SET to express my desire to still have an amicable relationship but be clear that I want an end to the marriage?  Is there a way to soften this blow with a slow and calculated approach?  I was initially feeling icky about being “calculated”, but my T reminded me that manipulation is done to harm, and my intentions here are the opposite - to reduce the pain for all involved, most especially our kids.

...

Don't feel bad about anything you're doing.  Protect yourself and your kids first.  The pwBPD will not extend you the same courtesy, or any courtesy at all.  You don't have to be malicious or spiteful, but you don't have to be polite. 

After reading so many stories, I do believe my case is “mild” … ...

If he physically abused you or your daughter, it's not mild.  He's shown he's capable of behaving worse.

I've read plenty of stories on here from people saying their BPD partner/mother/father/etc isn't that bad, and then they write a long list of all the things they have to refrain from doing in order to avoid triggering them, and each time I think "Yeah, that's actually bad."

[FindingMyGut]

I've read plenty of stories on here from people saying their BPD partner/mother/father/etc isn't that bad, and then they write a long list of all the things they have to refrain from doing in order to avoid triggering them, and each time I think "Yeah, that's actually bad."

Thank you for sharing your experience. And for this objective reminder. I definitely have to toughen my feelings towards him. It’s easier when he’s mistreating me because at least (now that I can see the toxicity and I know I deserve better) I’m angered and not feeling sorry for him.. But when he’s acting normal, my heart strings are pulled. I need to just do it. The cycles are too painful.