New here how to deal with lying 2 attempt!

[Kikib]

Hi I’m new to this site but sadly not the impact BPD has on us all. My 19year old DD was diagnosed 12 months ago but we have had issues since she was 11.she is an only child and has always been incredibly bright and my husband would say a little spoiled by me
An ongoing issue for us is lying. This can be as simple as ‘I was there/meant to be there’ when some disaster happened (never true) to being attacked when walking home/on the bus.
She is telling everyone she was abused as a child by her dad and I. I can honestly say we never hit her ever, rarely raised our voice, were always physically and emotionally present for her. My husband (her dad) did travel for work but I was always home. We very rarely had baby sitters and only ever close family.when she was younger we were incredibly close, friends and family used to call her my limpet ☺️I feel like she has rewritten her first 10/11 years and all our wonderful happy memories together didn’t happen. If it wasn’t for photos videos and family I would never believe they happened either.
If I try to ask what it is she feels we did or ask for any examples I am told I am being abusive and gaslighting her so have stopped.
I feel that this is also playing out in all her relationships as well. She has very intense relationships or friendships which eventually end catastrophically and result in her making lots of allegations of abuse and rape. She has accused 3 partners of rape (2 female 1 male) and at least 4 friends/partners of physical and emotional abuse (also financial) she refuses to make any kind of report to the police about any of this. But does discuss it with her therapists.
She has had 18 months of DBT and I attended for 8 sessions with other parents. I’m concerned that no one ever challenges her lying not even her dad and I. We are scared of what she will accuse us of nextTBH. I hoped that the therapist would question some of the things she says but I feel that they take everything she says as true including the childhood abuse. They have now suggested CAT therapy which she states is proof/due to the childhood trauma she has suffered.
I’m not sure where to go from here as she is in no way ready to live alone but we are so tired of tip toeing around her all the time, trying to justify ourselves and living in fear of what she will say next.
Any ideas of how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated x

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Hi there,

Rewriting history to present herself as a victim is a very common feature of BPD.  My adult stepdaughter was diagnosed with BPD, and she would do this all the time.  Though there might have been a kernel of truth in her stories--say, an argument, or a particular incident--the fact patterns tended to be highly distorted.  Worse, she'd often flip the script, making someone else out to be abuser, when more often than not, she was the one who was being abusive.

It's not clear to me if she knows she is lying or not.  Sometimes I think her brain re-writes history, and she mis-remembers facts.  Her brain re-orders facts to explain the intense emotions she associates with a particular incident.  Other times, I thinks she knows she's lying (or over-exaggerating), and she'll keep details and timelines vague, to keep people guessing.  Sometimes when she's challenged on the facts, she'll change tack and bring up some other grievances instead.  And sometimes when she's challenged, she'll just get angrier, believing that nobody understands her (this is called "invalidation").  And sometimes when she's challenged, she'll storm off, trying to punish us with her absence.  (I actually prefer it when she storms off, so that she gets an adult time-out.)

If I listen to the feelings behind her stories rather than the facts, I hear intense feelings of shame, disappointment, alienation and victimhood.  I'd recommend trying to validate the feelings more than the facts.  Having said that, when my stepdaughter's stories morphed into outrageous accusations of incest, my husband put a stop to that right away, stating that she knows full well that that's a lie.  To her credit, she dropped that narrative quickly.  But then she dredged up some other grievances from childhood, because that's her M.O.:  to blame her current poor decisions on supposed abuses from childhood, which messed her up beyond repair.  At the end of the day, she feels her childhood was not a happy one, and that she was often in distress.

With therapy, my stepdaughter has had to learn to get past the past, and not let her distorted memories of childhood distress totally derail her.  Now, sometimes she'll replay some of those ancient stories, by my husband will intervene, and say something like, You can't change the past.  Don't let the past derail you once again.  Even if you think your childhood was abusive, you're not in an abusive environment now, are you?  So you've got to focus on today.

In my stepdaughter's case, the "lying" relates mainly to stories of past "abuses".  Nevertheless, I feel that she'll frequently lie in order to get out of obligations.  You might say that these are little white lies, because she can't bear to tell the truth.  Examples would be saying she overslept when she stood us up for dinner, or saying that she had her phone turned off and never got a call.  She has "slept" through so many appointments and failed to answer her phone so many times that my baseline expectation is that she'll flake out on most of her obligations.  She could invite herself to dinner at 3 PM, but fail to show up at 5:30 PM.  In other words, she can't really be trusted to fulfill commitments.  I've adjusted my expectations accordingly.  Yet someday in the real world, she'll have to learn that she needs to be reliable to succeed in school, work and friendships.  I think she is a very slow learner, because of her BPD emotional handicap.

Hang in there, your daughter is only 19.  I've come to view BPD as a handicap, and it helps me to think of my stepdaughter's emotional vs. chronological age.  I think her emotional age is only about 70% of her chronological one.  So at 19, she was functioning as a 13-year-old.  Imagine how difficult the world seems to her.

[js friend]

Hi kikib,

I struggled with the lies too when my udd lived at home. Some of the lies seemingly had no basis at all while others were pretty obvious to see how much my udd could get away with. The lying got so bad that I felt that I couldnt even ask her a simple question about her day which was very upsetting as I felt that she just couldnt be trusted to tell the truth.

I knew that there had to be a link somewhere between udds behaviour and the lying but I never came across anything when I read the books about Bpd. I even asked the family therapist and the psychiatrist about it but never really got an answer, until one day I was watching a tv programme on criminal minds and it mentioned the link between Anti-social disorder and telling lies. Apparently pwbpd tend to lie more due to their intense emotions, fear of abandonment and impulsivity rather than outright manipulation as someone with ASPD would do. Once I had established this link I was able understand why my udd was lying to not just me but everyone so easily and I was able to let go of the feeling that udd was continually trying to pull the wool over my eyes.  I also think that my udd has other overlapping disorders( Npd possibly Aspd) and she has purposefully lied to manipulate and punish and has also accused several ex partners of s abuse which she has later retracted.

Other members here have said that that they try to keep conversations very short when it is obvious that their pwbpd is lying or not give them their full attention breaking off to go and do other chores like walking the dog or doing  washing. Sounds great and wish I had also tried these ideas rather than to confront my udd each and every time which I only ended up distressing myself more than my udd.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I'm following up with actual examples of lying.

My husband asked my BPD stepdaughter, How's college going?  She replied, Fine, I'm really busy studying for exams.  ("Studying for exams" would also be an excuse for standing us up.)  Once when she said this, I didn't believe her one bit, because the school calendar wasn't aligned--studying for exams wouldn't happen for several more weeks.  I knew something wasn't right.  A couple of weeks later, my stepdaughter had a meltdown, and subsequently she completely cut off communications with her dad (the avoidance tactic).  After days of no contact, my concerned husband looked at his daughter's spending, to see if he could detect what she was up to--he had given her a debit card and spending money to go along with it.  He observed several debit card transactions with times and locations that didn't align with spending for college.  So he called the college to investigate, to ensure she was still enrolled  The college informed him that she had withdrawn, and the college had issued the daughter a partial refund check, because she withdrew so early in the semester.  So there's the lie--college wasn't fine, she wasn't studying for exams, and she wasn't going to class, which prompted the withdrawal.  Why did she lie?  Well, I think it's obvious:  she was feeling anxious, she didn't want to upset her dad, she was avoiding a confrontation, she didn't want to disappoint him, she felt like a loser, etc.  Though it's not the responsible thing to do, lying is the easiest thing for her to do in the moment.  Her emotions of failure and disappointment were overwhelming, and so she lied, impulsively, to avoid responsibility, and then she spiraled into a complete meltdown culminating in a suicide attempt.

Then there were various stories associated with other withdrawals from college.  I say "stories" because I'm not 100% certain my stepdaughter was telling the truth, or if she was exaggerating, or if she was deflecting blame.  There's probably a little of everything.  One time she withdrew from college, she said it was because her sorority sisters bullied her.  Another time she withdrew, she initially said that it was because she was raped, but because the timelines were off, and she never went to a doctor or reported the incident, she changed her story a bit and said that she thought she might have been raped, but she didn't remember anything.  Another time she withdrew from college, she said it was because she was having disturbing flashbacks from her abusive childhood.  Now, there may be a kernel of truth in all these stories--a fight with a sorority sister, a night of drinking and partying too hard, and fights with siblings and/or parents when she was growing up.  However, none of these issues really has anything to do with falling behind in coursework, not going to class or failing an exam.  I think the "stories" serve to deflect responsibility for failure in school, and also to blame everyone else (peers, family, another boy) for causing all her problems.  A typical feature of BPD is to have intense emotional responses to any indication of rejection (e.g. from sorority sisters or a potential boyfriend).  I bet the complex social dynamics and pressures of college totally consumed her, and likely distracted her from schoolwork.  She probably lashed out at her peers in response, and since most people won't tolerate BPD-type tantrums, she lost her friends and became isolated.  I do know that she was kicked out of her apartment by her roommates, yet another form of rejection.  So she says she was bullied, but I have a strong suspicion that she was the bully, given her tendency to lash out with meanness and hatred when she doesn't get what she wants.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think she intends to lie.  I think she's avoiding responsibility and shifting blame.  Her internal dialogue is too negative for her to cope with failures or disappointments, let alone solve problems and push through discomfort.  Let's say she was having trouble with coursework.  A "normal" way to cope would be to study harder, seek out a tutor, try for extra credit or drop the course, making up for the lost credits the next semester.  If she fails a class, it's just a class, not the end of the world.  Maybe she could consider changing majors to something more aligned with her natural strengths.  Or maybe the college was simply to rigorous, and she could consider transferring to a college with a better academic fit, or possibly consider community college, or reducing her course load and take a couple of online classes at a time.  Or maybe college just didn't make sense for her right now, and she'd be better off working, but she could always have the option of going back to school when she had a better sense of what she wanted to study.  Yet with BPD, she can't even consider these viable alternatives.  She's so hung up on the overwhelming frustration of having to study too much, and/or deal with imminent failure.  Her internal dialogue is, I'm stupid, it's so unfair, everyone is having fun but me, I hate this, I'm not good at anything, my life is over, I can't do it, why am I so messed up, it's my parents' fault, they hate me, they didn't do anything for me, no wonder I'm such a mess, how could I possibly succeed at school when I was abused throughout childhood, they didn't teach me anything, I hate them for that, they made me this way!  She riles herself up with this line of thinking, and she ruminates day and night.  No wonder she can't study.  She thinks she's a failure, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, unless she gets some therapy to help her learn to cope with her negative emotions and self-sabotaging behaviors.

[Pook075]

I’m not sure where to go from here as she is in no way ready to live alone but we are so tired of tip toeing around her all the time, trying to justify ourselves and living in fear of what she will say next.
Any ideas of how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated x

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm so sorry you're going through this and i can vividly remember the same experiences with my BPD daughter, going all the way back to when she was 5 or 6.  It was always there and it was always ugly.  My kid is 26 now.

Like your daughter, my kid was in therapy throughout her teens and she blamed everything on me, mom, and sister.  She was a victim and we were monsters.  It drove me nuts, but I couldn't realize then how BPD worked or what was actually happening.  Like you, I felt therapy was useless and in many ways it was, simply because my kid wasn't ready to take accountability.  Until that happens, everything else is useless.  She has to want to change for some good to come out of this.

Someone with BPD is completely terrified of abandonment from those closest to them.  So when they feel a rift forming (real or imaginary), they torture themselves mentally trying to examine the "facts".  Only, the logic portion of their brains shuts off and these decisions are all made from emotion, which causes them to spiral.  While they're fighting to make things better, they're actually sabotaging the thing they care about the most...and they're almost helpless to break this ugly cycle.

I personally feel bad for your daughter, my heart breaks for her because she's in so much mental anguish.  But at the same time, she has to see it for what it is and break those patterns herself.  Nobody can do that for her or help her in any way until she's ready to actively change.  Then DBT makes a world of difference.

For now, stop walking on eggshells and take back your household.  I know you feel like she's not ready to move out, but she needs to make those decisions as she learns right from wrong.  If she's abusive, call her on it and make it plainly clear that it's not acceptable behavior.  If she wants to act that way, then she can do it elsewhere.  Or she can be respectful and stay.  It is ultimately her choice though and you must allow her to make it- that's how you frame these conversations.

Example- I love you and want you here.  But you can't stay if you're going to punish us for your own actions.  It's your decision to be respectful or find other arrangements.

Your mental health has to come first, please remember that.  It stinks having a kid move out, but your daughter has to get worse before she can start to get better.  As long as everything is your fault, your husband's fault, etc then she has no reason to change.  So let her move out if necessary and find new people to blame, that will help her realize where the problem actually is.

I hope that helps and again, I feel for you.  There are no easy answers or decisions.

[Sancho]

Hi Kikib
It is important to make a distinction between 'lying' and 'fantasy'. The term 'borderline' is used to describe the fact that those with this mental health condition exist on the 'border' of reality and unreality - or fantasy. Much of the history rewriting belongs, I believe, to the fantasy realm - not 'lying' as such.

My DD told many people she was a victim of something, the facts of which she had heard in the press. It became her reality, but was pure fantasy. This is just one example. There are so many especially about myself, all of which are not 'real'.

Then there is the 'lying'. This covers things on a day to day basis and I think is connected partly to a tendency towards paranoia in people with BPD - as well as used in a manipulative way to get attention and whatever they want/need.

The fact that fantasy and lying are happening makes it so difficult for others to connect. Another thing that confuses the issue is that sometimes - yes sometimes - the BPD person can seem absolutely normal and we interact normally - but this can change quickly.

I have cared for people as they developed dementia and the most difficult time was the early part of the illness. In the early stages, the person would often get things right - the brain connections worked and it was all 'normal'. But this made it difficult for others, because they thought the person was putting it all on when things weren't functioning. 'He could do it if he tried harder' or something like that was always the sort of comments made.

The BPD brain is not functioning normally, and it is so difficult to cope with the challenges this presents.

I am not sure that it is wrong to challenge fantasy in the same way as it might be to challenge lying. I think it needs careful handling to do this in any progressive way.

I have found that trying to focus on the world around me when I am trying to connect with DD has been the most helpful. Somehow it does ground her in the here and now and gradually seems to build up a stronger hold on reality.

It's also a challenge to keep oneself grounded in reality on the journey with BPD! The challenges are enormous! Take care of yourself - priority no 1.

[Kikib]

Hi all thank you so much for your replies and insight. Seeing this as part of BPD is really helpful. As is looking at it as her living on the Boarder and a lot of what she says as being fantasy rather than lies.
She has told all her friends and doctors/therapists for years that we have been abusing her all her life. 2 years ago I had to take time off work due to a risk of an investigation due to her saying I had physically and emotionally abused her. The physical abuse was one occasion when we had to restrain her when she was 12 as she was trying to leave the house late at night because she had her phone removed as a punishment. She was so out of control that I had to call the police. I was covered in bites and scratches from her but when she was examined in hospital there was nothing on her. I am a nurse and was trained in restraining patients with care and safety at the time. She raised this during another hospital admission 2 years ago and social care were contacted who did their investigation and closed the case with no support