Still confused and unsure and it's hurting everyone

[Versant]

We have another child now. Haven't posted about it before because I feel ashamed of myself for being irresponsible enough for that to happen. I did tell my wife I feel our relationship is not in a place where we can go for a second child, but she talked me out of it, and I let it happen because I really did want a second child, even while I knowing it was madness given how things are with her. This has not been great for my self respect.

Caring for the baby is great, and we have had some great moments as parents and as a family. The stress and lack of sleep has not been as bad for us as I feared it would be: not nearly as bad as it was with our first born. Still, it has been bad enough, and there have been a few cases where my wifes unstability or surfacing resentment reminded me that in all likelyhood the future for me and my children is brighter if I don't desperately try to make this relationship work. I'm just more scared than ever to think about that, and the potential disasters it might mean for the children.

And I am confused and unsure all the time. Often I am not even sure my wife is a pwbd and I start to question if I'm maybe just denying responsibility for my own shortcomings, and then have to actively remind myself that her more extreme behaviours are quite clearly not normal. Like I need to go "right, she did beat me up a whole lot of times that one year, and also it's not normal to threaten suicide or harming my loved ones" and so on.

Part of this confusion is that in our conflicts she tends to have some real point amidst all the stuff that doesn't seem right. It's hard for me to figure out what is normal, when am I being unreasonable and so on. Like the amount of criticism I face. It feels like a lot. Most of it has a point, though. I feel like maybe even if all the criticisms were perfectly valid, maybe some of it could still be left unsaid, and that would be good? Like, I don't feel this really helps me develop, it just makes me feel bad. But like I said, most of it is on point, so do I really have any grounds to object, especially when (these days) most of it involves taking care of our children?

My wife is mad at me today, because when she went "omg, you left scissors on the table, *come on*" I objected since for once the complaint was misplaced. I almost caught the impulse and instead of saying it out loud, I just muttered under my breath "well, just who was using those scissors last" but maybe that was even worse since she heard me anyway.
I think I did quite ok taking her offense seriously even if on the surface the row that followed was quite an overreaction to one fairly mild comment. I do have problem taking criticism like she says, and it is petty to be so quick to point out when she slips like that for once. And she had a rough day following a few rough weeks, and she has faced (perceived?) repeated slights from me for years now. So it's not really about that one comment.

Still, being told in front of our toddler she doesn't like me, I'm not a nice person, I'm the most horrible person she has ever known and that her greatest regret is that she ever met me... That doesn't seem right. She maintains that all the unstable behavior and the times when she exposes our children to fights like that, that it's all normal reaction to how I mistreat her. That sounds very much like something an abuser shifting responsibility would claim. But I *am* hard to live with.

[CravingPeace]

We have another child now. Haven't posted about it before because I feel ashamed of myself for being irresponsible enough for that to happen. I did tell my wife I feel our relationship is not in a place where we can go for a second child, but she talked me out of it, and I let it happen because I really did want a second child, even while I knowing it was madness given how things are with her. This has not been great for my self respect.

Please don't beat yourself up it happens to the best of us.

all likelyhood the future for me and my children is brighter if I don't desperately try to make this relationship work. I'm just more scared than ever to think about that, and the potential disasters it might mean for the children.

In my experience divorce has been brutal 8 months in. But hand on heart the potential disaster for my children would have been far worse if I stayed. Mine was never violent, but acted with complete contempt of me like she hated me, blamed me for everything. Shouted and swore, refused intimacy. She was a whirlwind of a nightmare. Even now she tells the children she doesn't want the divorce.. Apparently sticks her finger up at the marriage therapists office when she drives past with the kids, and blames the therapist for the divorce. Zero accountability.

And I am confused and unsure all the time. Often I am not even sure my wife is a pwbd and I start to question if I'm maybe just denying responsibility for my own shortcomings, and then have to actively remind myself that her more extreme behaviours are quite clearly not normal. Like I need to go "right, she did beat me up a whole lot of times that one year, and also it's not normal to threaten suicide or harming my loved ones" and so on.

And there is the trauma bond speaking.... It's normal. I did this too. Constantly trying to blame myself, what if she isn't that bad, what if it's me etc. 7 months out as I watch her behavior escalate, the lieing , manipulating, false accusations I get to see what she really is. I know I was never the problem. In the relationship it was something I struggled with.

Part of this confusion is that in our conflicts she tends to have some real point amidst all the stuff that doesn't seem right. It's hard for me to figure out what is normal, when am I being unreasonable and so on. Like the amount of criticism I face. It feels like a lot. Most of it has a point, though. I feel like maybe even if all the criticisms were perfectly valid, maybe some of it could still be left unsaid, and that would be good? Like, I don't feel this really helps me develop, it just makes me feel bad. But like I said, most of it is on point, so do I really have any grounds to object, especially when (these days) most of it involves taking care of our children?

Clever isn't it? Throw in a few comments on your shortcomings (we all have them), then try to persuade you everything else is your fault. As if you have that minor shortcoming you must have many more right? ....Easy way to get your to doubt yourself. If someone loved you would they do this to you?

Guess what you take the blame for everything even when she blame shifts, and DARVOs you, she doesn't have to deal with her own uncomfortable feelings.

My wife is mad at me today, because when she went "omg, you left scissors on the table, *come on*" I objected since for once the complaint was misplaced. I almost caught the impulse and instead of saying it out loud, I just muttered under my breath "well, just who was using those scissors last" but maybe that was even worse since she heard me anyway.

In a normal relationship if she blamed you for something you hadn't done as an adult you should have been able to say "Actually my love, you just used them for X", she would hopefully realize she had forgotten that and you would talk about it. Well hopefully anyway!

But if you are like me you knew if you said something she would rip your head off. How would standing up to her feel? Personally I would have felt scared and it wasn't worth the agro, so I let things go. In your case you made a passive comment. Not ideal, but a coping mechanism I'd guess from years or not being able to stand up for yourself without massive blame shifting and a complete tear down.

I do have problem taking criticism like she says, and it is petty to be so quick to point out when she slips like that for once. And she had a rough day following a few rough weeks, and she has faced (perceived?) repeated slights from me for years now. So it's not really about that one comment.

Please don't do that. Please learn how not to. Why do you think you have a problem taking criticism? Do you really feel you do or is it something she has told you to think. Mine would say the same thing, you can't take criticism , you are so defensive, you think you are always right yada yada. It was a strategy to beat you down, so whenever you stand up for yourself you are told things about yourself so you stop resisting and she can get her own way.

Ask yourself this, is it just her that says this about you? Would your friends and family say you can't take critizism? Start looking outside her voice and looking around at other people. Or you end up with an inner critic a voice in your head that beats you up, which is basically her after years of conditioning.

Still, being told in front of our toddler she doesn't like me, I'm not a nice person, I'm the most horrible person she has ever known and that her greatest regret is that she ever met me... That doesn't seem right.

See you know the truth deep down. You just need to start listening to your own internal voice not hers.

I wish you luck, but you need to get stronger for yourself and your kids. Don't let her brain wash you.

[ForeverDad]

Still, being told in front of our toddler she doesn't like me, I'm not a nice person, I'm the most horrible person she has ever known and that her greatest regret is that she ever met me... That doesn't seem right. She maintains that all the unstable behavior and the times when she exposes our children to fights like that, that it's all normal reaction to how I mistreat her. That sounds very much like something an abuser shifting responsibility would claim.

That's excusing herself.  My ex did the same as comfort for our toddler except in her native language.  "Daddy doesn't love you but mommy does."  She stuck on that devastating path.  The end result?  About a year later we separated and divorced.

But I *am* hard to live with.

Go to the car wash and rinse that gunk out of your head.  She has brainwashed you to believe that your responses to her crazymaking are worse than her active denigration of you to you and your impressionable children.

[CravingPeace]

Go to the car wash and rinse that gunk out of your head.  She has brainwashed you to believe that your responses to her crazymaking are worse than her active denigration of you to you and your impressionable children.

100% this.

[Pook075]

And I am confused and unsure all the time. Often I am not even sure my wife is a pwbd and I start to question if I'm maybe just denying responsibility for my own shortcomings, and then have to actively remind myself that her more extreme behaviors are quite clearly not normal.

Two things can be true at the same time- your wife can be abusive and you're not good with criticism.

If your wife is BPD/NPD, therapy is the long-term answer to help her regulate her emotions.  But the immediate fix is better communication skills so you're validating her feelings while avoiding the disordered stuff.  And the beautiful thing here is that the communication skills you learn here are very helpful in all relationships.  Take a look in the "tools" section at the top of this page.

You mentioned that there's some validity in her criticisms- and those are things you can actively work on.  But at the same time, you don't want to validate the invalid and you certainly don't want to argue about it.  You must pick your battles and learn when the healthy choice would be to walk away and avoid a conversation all together.

Again, two things can be true- you might need to work on some things, while your wife is also being a jerk about it.  Those are two completely different things and you're only responsible for one of them.

[ForeverDad]

Often I am not even sure my wife is a pwbd

News flash... relatively few of us here ever learned of a diagnosis.  So, lacking a professional's conclusion, we can only reach our own informed conclusions based on what we saw, heard and experienced.  So if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck... what else are you to conclude?

Remember too, officialdom sees no benefit to name a diagnosis when it is more or less meaningless to them.  Family court does not want to get in the middle of squabbles.  It's there to issue parenting orders or to referee a divorce.  Court is not there to 'fix' either spouse.

In my own two year divorce and six years in and out of court afterward neither the magistrates nor the attorneys nor the GAL (Guardian ad Litem for the child) would ever venture into the mental health aspects, they dealt with setting limits to certain poor behaviors.  Only once in the final time we were in court did the order comment in a footnote, "... the Court is inclined to order Mother to have individual counseling..." but did not order it.  This was after eight years!

[PeteWitsend]

...
Still, being told in front of our toddler she doesn't like me, I'm not a nice person, I'm the most horrible person she has ever known and that her greatest regret is that she ever met me... That doesn't seem right. She maintains that all the unstable behavior and the times when she exposes our children to fights like that, that it's all normal reaction to how I mistreat her. That sounds very much like something an abuser shifting responsibility would claim. But I *am* hard to live with.

This IS what an abuser is doing.

And don't beat yourself up over having another kid; don't beat yourself up at all, and stop tolerating the abuse. 

Kids are great, and once they're here, they're here, and so you shouldn't regret having them, or feel like you screwed up, you should be happy they're part of your life and do your best to raise them.

BPDxw would - in addition to all the other abusive things she did - tell me that she couldn't stand how "calm" I was and it made her upset and anxious to see me doing things without any emotion. Sometimes if I was just happy or smiling, she would get angry and demand to know what I was so happy about, implying I was thinking about another woman, or had fallen in love with another woman. I assume this explained some of her motivation for picking fights out of the blue.  She more or less admitted that, telling on herself with some of her unhinged accusations toward me that seemed to come out of left field.

Does this mean I was difficult to live with?  She was clearly having problems being in the same space as me.  So would you say it was my fault I created these deranged thoughts and paranoid fears in a disordered mind?

[Versant]

Like I said, I need to keep reminding myself of the things she's done. Here are some things, to see if it makes me feel different to say these things out aloud

The bad old days a few years back:
 - hid my glasses and keys so I couldn't leave the house
 - hid my computer so I couldn't work remotely
 - blamed me for her hands and wrists hurting, when she had been punching me a lot
 - locked me on the balcony when I escaped her there
 - destroyed my old photos and other keepsakes with emotional value
 - when I was finishing my master's thesis, removed all the files from my computer
 - stopped me from sleeping, night after night
 - threatened to send sexually implicit content to my 10 years old niece
 - impersonated me on social media to send messages to someone she was jealous about
 - threatened me with scissors, knife, hammer, boiling water, compass saw
 - lied about having cheated on me and shared fabricated details of the encounter
 - lied about having taken an overdose
 - sent me a picture of knife and "blood" (ketchup) on our bathroom floor when I was out
 - described in disturbing detail her sex life with previous partners even though I begged her to stop

More recently:
 - threatened to make sure I won't be allowed to meet our son again
 - threatened to kill our son unless I do something
 - threatened to kill herself and our son if I do something
 - badmouths me to our son when she's angry

Ok, so that's kind of horrifying. Makes me wonder what it says about me I had children with her. Not the most pressing thing at the moment, but something I need to understand about myself at some point anyway.

I think the physical abuse and it's absence for some years now is one thing doing a number on me. I have this twisted idea that we are doing so much better because that's gone now. Also there's the fear that it might come back - no matter how bad things are on some days now, I know she's capable of making them much worse. And I feel like I need a good or fair reason for divorce (false, I know) and if I stayed after the violence, how could I justify leaving now? Messed up thinking, I'm working on it (writing these things is part of doing that).

Guess what you take the blame for everything even when she blame shifts, and DARVOs you, she doesn't have to deal with her own uncomfortable feelings.

This is something I've only recently really understood: she's working on a totally different agenda. On the top of her agenda is not facing the hurtful things about herself. It's really hard to keep in mind, but at the very least helps me understand why she reacted to something in the way she did after it happened.

But if you are like me you knew if you said something she would rip your head off. How would standing up to her feel? Personally I would have felt scared and it wasn't worth the agro, so I let things go. In your case you made a passive comment. Not ideal, but a coping mechanism I'd guess from years or not being able to stand up for yourself without massive blame shifting and a complete tear down.

Yeah, I'm terrified of standing up to her. Also it seems futile, because she is willing to keep escalating well beyond anything I'm capable of handling, so I will back down soon enough anyways.

Please don't do that. Please learn how not to. Why do you think you have a problem taking criticism? Do you really feel you do or is it something she has told you to think. Mine would say the same thing, you can't take criticism , you are so defensive, you think you are always right yada yada. It was a strategy to beat you down, so whenever you stand up for yourself you are told things about yourself so you stop resisting and she can get her own way.

Ask yourself this, is it just her that says this about you? Would your friends and family say you can't take critizism? Start looking outside her voice and looking around at other people. Or you end up with an inner critic a voice in your head that beats you up, which is basically her after years of conditioning.

I think this is one of those many cases I mentioned when there's some truth in what she says, and it makes it really difficult for me to see what's false. I know from before the time I knew her I have difficulty with criticism, but also that is maybe only a small part of the dynamic we have. It's hard for me to sort out.

The idea that this might be a part of larger strategy to beat me down, to make me accept my role as someone to blame so she doesn't need to face herself but can forever be the innocent victim... It's revolting. Could it be true? It fits her prime motivation of evading facing herself...

Thanks everyone for your input, much appreciated. I don't have time right now I'll respond to the other replies later

[PeteWitsend]

More recently:
 - threatened to make sure I won't be allowed to meet our son again
 - threatened to kill our son unless I do something
 - threatened to kill herself and our son if I do something
 - badmouths me to our son when she's angry

if you have this stuff in writing... keep it.  and document when it was said and where. 

If she's only saying these things, maybe start keeping the voice record function on your phone on, or keep a recorder in the house.  This is awful. 

...

Yeah, I'm terrified of standing up to her. Also it seems futile, because she is willing to keep escalating well beyond anything I'm capable of handling, so I will back down soon enough anyways.
...

This is a problem, man!  I assume it's not only an issue in your marriage too, no?  Do you have trouble standing up for yourself generally? 

As a father, you have to stop thinking of this as only a "me" problem; your wife is not going to be there for those kids, you have to be, and you have to be willing to stand up to abuse, even directed toward you, so that you can. 

...
I think this is one of those many cases I mentioned when there's some truth in what she says, and it makes it really difficult for me to see what's false. I know from before the time I knew her I have difficulty with criticism, but also that is maybe only a small part of the dynamic we have. It's hard for me to sort out.
...

Here's the thing: EVERYONE has something wrong with them.  We're all human.  This is normal, and having a flaw, or making mistakes does not give other people the right to trample all over you, like you've described above, or beat you up over it. 

But beyond that, if your partner is BPD, it doesn't really matter: you could be perfect, and they'd still find something to get upset over and criticize you for doing.  THEY are the problem, not you. 

As in the example above, my XW would get angry at me just because I was in a good mood and she didn't know why... that's crazy!  She was disordered and had a problem, not me. 

[ForeverDad]

More recently:
 - threatened to make sure I won't be allowed to meet our son again
 - threatened to kill our son unless I do something
 - threatened to kill herself and our son if I do something
 - badmouths me to our son when she's angry

if you have this stuff in writing... keep it.  and document when it was said and where. 

If she's only saying these things, maybe start keeping the voice record function on your phone on, or keep a recorder in the house.  This is awful.

There may be a time element to consider.  A threat may be more "actionable" if it is reported sooner than later.

What is also more legally "actionable" is if children are threatened.  You as an adult are not seen as needing the same level of protection as a child.

My example is if you call emergency responders "My ex threatened to burn the house down last month..."  The likely response would be "Call back when it's an ongoing emergency."  Do you perceive that an old threat, even a despicable one, can age out quickly and become ho-hum?

However, on the flip side, even reporting something promptly can have limited benefit.  My separation was triggered when I reported my ex's threat (IWKY).  It was illegal to do so.  However, after repeated continuances the trial eventually started.  I could tell it was essentially a formality.  It quickly wrapped up, less than an hour, and the judge promptly declared her Not Guilty, not by law, but by case law.  That other decision - case law - involved a drunk guy saying he'd shoot his wife but he didn't even have a gun.  My ex wasn't drunk but judge stated no one reported her having a weapon in her hands.

All was not lost.  There were a few benefits to that case.  (1) It gave me time to conclude the marriage really was ended. (2) I was granted possession of the home in the TPO so she never had an opportunity to kick me out.  She couldn't have afforded it anyway but the financial aspect was simpler since I just had to pay her half the equity. (3) She was twice shy to claim DV so she focused instead on fear of child abuse, which was horrendous to deal with in itself.

[Notwendy]

 

Ok, so that's kind of horrifying. Makes me wonder what it says about me I had children with her. Not the most pressing thing at the moment, but something I need to understand about myself at some point anyway.

This is something I've only recently really understood: she's working on a totally different agenda. On the top of her agenda is not facing the hurtful things about herself. It's really hard to keep in mind, but at the very least helps me understand why she reacted to something in the way she did after it happened.

Yeah, I'm terrified of standing up to her. Also it seems futile, because she is willing to keep escalating well beyond anything I'm capable of handling, so I will back down soon enough anyways.


The idea that this might be a part of larger strategy to beat me down, to make me accept my role as someone to blame so she doesn't need to face herself but can forever be the innocent victim... It's revolting. Could it be true? It fits her prime motivation of evading facing herself...

Thanks everyone for your input, much appreciated. I don't have time right now I'll respond to the other replies later

I can't tell you what to do about your relationship but when there's kids involved I try to add a bit of that perspective.

I think if you read about the Karpman triangle, it will help to understand the goal of being "blameless". From what I have observed, I think pwBPD see things from victim perspective. The benefit is to avoid feeling shame or fault, and/or it's also a function of distorted thinking.

IMHO, I think you are being too hard on yourself for having the kids. I don't discount your feelings and also I would understand it if my own father felt that way at times too. Kids can sense this, even if it's not spoken about and they don't understand why. I could tell my father was ovewhelmed at times and hesitated to ask more of him. I know your own feelings of shame affect your self esteem and I hope you can feel better about yourself in time.

No child is perfect, and kids aren't either but I would like to think my father felt proud to have us, not ashamed. I believe your kids will want this too.

The bottom line - you need to be emotionally intact for yourself so you can also be that for them. Please take care of yourself.

[Versant]

Go to the car wash and rinse that gunk out of your head.  She has brainwashed you to believe that your responses to her crazymaking are worse than her active denigration of you to you and your impressionable children.

Again, two things can be true- you might need to work on some things, while your wife is also being a jerk about it.  Those are two completely different things and you're only responsible for one of them.

Yeah, at times it's really hard to keep the perspective. I get some clarity when I do something like remind myself of the crazy things she's done. No matter how much I might have contributed to things, those are not on me.

News flash... relatively few of us here ever learned of a diagnosis.

I don't care that much about a label or diagnosis. What I mean is, I often find myself doubting if there's anything even wrong with her! If I bought into her version of reality, that's what I'd believe all the time: she's stable and reasonable person, but facing enough trauma and abuse she has resorted to extreme measures to try to protect herself (like anyone would).
Looking at the facts, this seems obviously wrong. I see it, but often I don't feel it.

Kids are great, and once they're here, they're here, and so you shouldn't regret having them, or feel like you screwed up, you should be happy they're part of your life and do your best to raise them.

This is important. I know it, and I love the kids and can't imagine a world without them. Lot's of negative thinking about myself and my actions, though. I know I have to let it go and look forwards, but easier said than done.

BPDxw would - in addition to all the other abusive things she did - tell me that she couldn't stand how "calm" I was and it made her upset and anxious to see me doing things without any emotion.

Btw. my wife does this occasionally too and for some reason it feels like one of the more unfair and hurtful things to say to someone. I'm hurting and struggling to just keep it together enough to function, and then she tells me I must be defective human being because I can function when I should be in distress; clearly I have no real emotions. Oh well.

[/quote]
So would you say it was my fault I created these deranged thoughts and paranoid fears in a disordered mind?
[/quote]

Yes, I see what you are saying.

This is a problem, man!  I assume it's not only an issue in your marriage too, no?  Do you have trouble standing up for yourself generally? 

As a father, you have to stop thinking of this as only a "me" problem; your wife is not going to be there for those kids, you have to be, and you have to be willing to stand up to abuse, even directed toward you, so that you can. 

I have tried to think about this objectively. I do have a tendency go along with things. It's never been like with my wife, though. It feels uncomfortable to stand up for myself, I can manage the discomfort when it matters.

With my wife it feels like it's a totally different thing. It's not about discomfort, it's whether I am really willing to take things to level where she's screaming, breaking things, and then spending two days in bed unable to function. Because she won't back down, and that's where things will head. Not always, but often enough to not so subtly affect my behavior.

For my son, I have tried to make sure it doesn't look like I approve of her unacceptable behaviors. That's quite a tightrope, though, trying at the same time not set her off further and also not agreeing with her.

I do realize that that is untenable situation, I can't just be a doormat. I am in the process of reading Stop caretaking the Borderline or the Narcissist. That's a really good read, painful but necessary. They really don't sugarcoat things there.

No child is perfect, and kids aren't either but I would like to think my father felt proud to have us, not ashamed. I believe your kids will want this too.

I'm sure you are right. This is a good perspective on this.

[PeteWitsend]

...
I do realize that that is untenable situation, I can't just be a doormat. I am in the process of reading Stop caretaking the Borderline or the Narcissist. That's a really good read, painful but necessary. They really don't sugarcoat things there.

...

That's good.  And I wanted to say as well that just being here looking for advice and taking steps in the right direction is huge.  Don't be so hard on yourself; we have years of patterns and behaviors that we need to correct sometimes, and it's not going to change overnight.