Demands

[15years]

Hi,

Looking for a discussion on how to deal with demands that seems like life or death to the partner, but feels unhealthy.

So this is a bit private but this is the only place I can look for support, so here it goes - she wants me (and her) to completely refrain from masturbation. She is absolutely sure that it's toxic in a rs and thinks it's infidelity. This sounds weird but she almost vomited thinking about it this morning.

My alternatives are the following:
1. Never do it, don't lie
2. Do it, don't lie.
3. Do it, lie

Up until recently I've been discreet but honest if being asked about it. Now I've stopped being honest so I've landed at alternative 3 in the list above. I still tell her I don't think it's a healthy dynamic and that I think it's wrong of her to ask this of me. I thought that was an important "last defense" to not totally make her believe that I am on her side in this matter, but it makes me sound like a predator, so I guess I'll stop doing that too.

What's your opinion on lying about it? From a more general perspective, it could be seen as weird, cowardly and also manipulative to lie about. But knowing what I know, I think all the other alternatives are worse.
The two risks with this solution is
1. bad concience having to maintain a lie and
2. the risk of her finding out and causing a betrayal trauma and as a result of that making my life really difficult.


(Also have to mention that she has had traumatic experiences that are connected to this in our past. It makes it worse but I think this is where we would have ended up no matter what.)

[HurtAndTired]

Hi 15years,

You immediately mentioned in your post that this "feels unhealthy." If it feels wrong to you, that is your gut telling you something. In my experience, nothing good comes from ignoring a gut feeling, especially when it comes to dealing with pwBPD. Your SO is asking you to do something that you said "it feels wrong of her to ask this of me." That is another clear indication that she is trying to push you out of what feels healthy and normal to you. Subject matter aside, in my experience capitulating to the unreasonable demands of a pwBPD never solves any problems and does not buy any peace and tranquility in the long-term. It only gives them more control over you and, in this case, your body. If you cave, expect the next demand to follow shortly upon the last with the expectation that this too will be fulfilled.

My dBPDw has similar hangups about masturbation. I am constantly being accused of it, partly due to the fact that we are very rarely intimate due to our relationship deteriorating so much. However, I have come to realize that her paranoia over this issue (and it truly is paranoia, for ex. if I am in the bathroom for 5 minutes I am accused of doing it) stems from A) a need to completely control me and my body, and B) her own secret addiction to porn and masturbation. I have started to consider most of her accusations to be projections and admissions, not only over this but everything else as well.

As for my own personal feelings and opinions about the subject, they are as follows. What you do with your body in your personal time is your own business. Your SO does not own you. If you have an addiction to pornography, are compulsively masturbating, or your "solo activities" are causing you to not be able to have actual intimacy with your partner, then that would be a problem. However, if it is not out of control, it is a completely normal behavior for people in a relationship to engage in. I don't care in the slightest if my wife is "flying solo." I don't want to know about it and would never pry. It's absolutely none of my business.

Similarly, my wife constantly demands to go through my phone (I don't let her do it anymore now that I have healthy boundaries), but I would never imagine asking to go through her phone. It would feel "icky" and like a complete invasion of her privacy. This respect for privacy and autonomy is a core value for me, and I suspect it is for you too. If it is something that you would never think of demanding of her, don't let her demand it of you. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

To more specifically address the situation that you now find yourself in, I think this presents the opportunity to discuss personal privacy and boundaries. You can tell her that you respect her opinions and feelings about the subject, but that you do not agree. Tell her that you believe that what a person does with their own body in their own private time is no one else's business. You would never ask her to do something like no longer eat meat because you find it morally reprehensible to not live a vegan lifestyle. That is a violation of her bodily autonomy, extremely controlling, and inappropriate. This is a comparable situation and it is also based on moral beliefs.

As I see it, you don't have to lie or tell her that you are masturbating. You can simply say that you don't think that this is an appropriate conversation. It is an invasion of privacy to even ask about it, and that you will not be discussing it further with her. If she brings it up again, you can politely remind her that you do not feel comfortable talking about the subject and exit the conversation if she won't let it drop. She will not like it. She will push back. She will likely have an extinction burst where things get worse before they get better, but in the end she will have to either accept your boundary or decide to end the relationship. Due to the extreme fear of abandonment that pwBPD have and the relatively minor nature of the issue, I think it is very likely that she will end up toeing the line and accepting your boundary eventually.

What other areas of your life has she been eroding your privacy and taking control over? I strongly suspect that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Usually by the time a pwBPD starts trying to take control of your bodily autonomy, it is because they have already succeeded in isolating you from friends and family, taken control of your freedom of movement (where you will go, with whom, when, and how long), have access to your electronics, make you "check it", and exercise a great deal of control over many other aspects of your life. Bodily autonomy is close to the bottom of the list of things that they can try to take away from you.

Have you read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad? It was a life-changing book for me and taught me how to lay down boundaries that stick. I have read it cover to cover at least three times. It gives easy to understand and actionable advice for how to take control of your life back from a pwBPD. My wife is still suffering from untreated BPD, but I have lessened the impact that it has on my life. Her issues are hers to deal with, and I no longer feel the need to fix them for her. Strong boundaries have done wonders for me and I think they can do wonders for you too.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

This gets right to biology and boundaries.

Your body makes millions of swimmers every day and they only go in one direction. They are going to get out one way or another no matter what your wife says about it.

Understandable that if this is done to excess to where you are unavailable to your wife at all, this is a marital issue but otherwise, this is your personal business. It's your body and neither of you can control a biological function.

You aren't refusing to agree to this. It's an impossible expectation.

[HurtAndTired]

* I meant to say "make you check in" not "make you check it."

[15years]

What other areas of your life has she been eroding your privacy and taking control over? I strongly suspect that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Usually by the time a pwBPD starts trying to take control of your bodily autonomy, it is because they have already succeeded in isolating you from friends and family, taken control of your freedom of movement (where you will go, with whom, when, and how long), have access to your electronics, make you "check it", and exercise a great deal of control over many other aspects of your life. Bodily autonomy is close to the bottom of the list of things that they can try to take away from you.

Thank you, interesting observation. And you're right, there are other things and it might be that it is getting worse over time. It's just so hard to see from close.

Make you check in, you mean when we're not together...? I now have to send her a "good morning" message every day from work. I've done that for a few months and it keeps her more satisfied. What's good about this is that it relieves me of worry, she's content with the same exact message each day. If we had a good day the day before, I just send an additional emoji. And when she writes me "good morning" back, i react with a heart. So two check ins per day usually. But I guess it will only work for some time, and when that ends, something could become worse.

This gets right to biology and boundaries.

Your body makes millions of swimmers every day and they only go in one direction. They are going to get out one way or another no matter what your wife says about it.

Understandable that if this is done to excess to where you are unavailable to your wife at all, this is a marital issue but otherwise, this is your personal business. It's your body and neither of you can control a biological function.

You aren't refusing to agree to this. It's an impossible expectation.

Agreeing is the only way to stop the discussion. What about subtly agree and avoid further discussion, to not make it into a big deal.

Or is it bad to lie even in this case.

[Notwendy]

I think you've found that appeasement keeps your wife from escalating but it's also temporary because, eventually she becomes upset about something else and demands that to be taken care of too.

The alternative is to hold your boundary which in your situation can provoke an escalation.

It's really a no-win situation. If you agree, it will appease your wife but I don't think it's an agreement you can realistically keep in a long term situation, so it's not being truthful.

If you say no, you will have to deal with her reaction.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi 15 years,

I did mean checking in when you are apart. In my case, it started out, like you, with pretty innocently texts saying, "I got here safely," "Good morning," etc. Within a few years, things had gotten much worse, with texts needing to be answered within a short amount of time after receiving them, or it was proof I was having an affair. She would also question whether or not I was at the place I said I was going to be. I once had to send her a selfie with a priest and a monk to show her that I was indeed at church. Looking back on it, I can't believe that I had allowed myself to give up so much autonomy that although I found the demand annoying, I didn't see it as the deeply invasive and abusive gesture it was.

You say that it seems to keep her satisfied. In my experience pwBPD are never truly satisfied. They may appear to be for a time, but eventually the behavior will escalate if you don't put down a boundary. Their need for reassurance and control is like a drug addict needing their fix. What used to work for them will soon not be enough. They will escalate and escalate until you either put a stop to the behavior with strong boundaries, or you completely surrender your selfhood and become an enmeshed shell of a person, living your life completely at their whim, and yet still watching them get angry at you because you didn't do something they wanted fast enough, or the right way.

There was a movie in the 1980s called War Games with Matthew Broderick about an AI who was about to start a global nuclear war because it thought it was a game. Broderick's character saves the world by teaching the AI that the only way to "win the game is not to play." I have found that this mantra is very often true with pwBPD. The only way to win is not to play. Just because they want to start an argument doesn't mean you have to agree to be in one. Just because they want to talk about something in a circular conversation until 2 in the morning doesn't mean you have to sit and listen.  Just because they want to yell and call you names doesn't mean that you can't leave the room or the house. Choosing to not play the game is the only way you win.

If her accepting a "good morning text" is enough to keep her happy now, there is no reason to stop. However, if she starts demanding you to escalate to new levels (where are you?, who are you with? what are you doing? why are you five minutes late? send me a picture to prove it, etc.) I would advise you not to go along with it as this opens the door for her to further push boundaries.

I also wanted to say that agreeing with your wife is not the only way to stop the discussion. You have control over what you will discuss with her and for how long. A person cannot have a discussion by themselves. If you kindly tell her that you do not think it appropriate for someone to ask someone about this subject and that you will not be discussing it with her as it is a private matter about control over one's own body, that should be her cue to drop the subject. She won't, of course, but nothing obliges you to continue to discuss it with her. You have the power to end the discussion at any point you wish to by politely excusing yourself from it.

I have had to establish many such boundaries with my wife, and although she hated them, they eventually took root and have markedly reduced unwanted "discussions." An example is divorce threats. She would pull those out on me as a trump card to try to scare me into submission whenever she was losing control of the relationship. I finally couldn't take it any more and told her "If you want to file for divorce, then get a lawyer and file. At that point I will have my own attorney and we will only speak to each other through our lawyers." I used to get divorce threats weekly (sometimes daily). Now I will go months without hearing one, and when I do I just shut it down the same way I did the first time I called her bluff.

Thinking that agreeing with a pwBPD is the only way to win is magical thinking. You could do everything perfectly and agree with them 100% of the time and they will still find something to blow up about. This is because the issue is not, and never has been, you. The real issue is them and their own internal problems that they are projecting on you. You have zero, I repeat zero control over their behavior. The only control you have is over your own. AlAnon has a statement "I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it" that is applicable to living with a pwBPD. Let their problems be theirs. Nothing you can do can make them better. They, like alcoholics, have to choose to get better on their own and seek out treatment because they want it. You can no more control your wife's BPD by your agreement/behaviors than you could control her drinking if she were an alcoholic. Letting go of that way of thinking is incredibly freeing.

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I agree with Hurt and Tired. Believing appeasement is the solution is magical thinking. Your wife's emotional issues are her feelings, and the proposed "solution" is external. You can not "fix" her feeling by agreeing/appeasement.

You can choose to not discuss personal topics about your own body functions. I think Hurt and Tired's example with his wife's divorce threats about not responding is a good example of how not to get into the drama.

In addition, you have two boys. They are going to go through puberty at some point. You are their primary male role model, so this is also an incentive to get right with your own boundaries so you can be an example for them.

[15years]

Thank you, I read your replies, but don't have time for a long reply.


I have a new problem, a result of my boys growing up... and probably more like this coming later as they grow older and become more and more independent...

-> S8 said he wants to listen to Michael Jackson because kids at school talked about him. I have never played his music to the kids because my wife is utterly convinced he was a child molester because of the documentary.

I don't know how to behave, playing him the music would cause a huge blow up from my wife. I don't want to tell him about the controversy either at his age. And I don't want to play it to him and tell him to not tell mom, because that's weird and inappropriate.
And if I only avoid it, he will here it somewhere else and it could be my parents who would be the "culprits"...

Am I overthinking it, and am I missing an obvious solution? :D

[Notwendy]

This is a variation of sequential “issues”- one after the other but they are all variations of your wife’s distorted thinking. It’s not possible to control her thinking or feelings. What concerns me is your somehow suspending your own sense of reality and buying into hers. You somehow feel you need to consider it and come up with some solution to keep her calm.

The reality is that - her “demands” are based on distorted feelings. Reality is science - biology. Many fabulously talented artists have their flaws- but one can still appreciate their art. I think you know your wife’s demands are unrealistic.