How to proceed

[Sunshine Island]

Hello peeps. First time, and it may be a long one, sorry. New to all of this; it's only just dawned on me after years of head scratching that I could be looking at BPD in my daughter. She's 38 and looking back I think it first manifested aged around 7-8. Prior to that she was perfectly well behaved and never given to tantrums. Didn't have the terrible twos, or threes etc, slept through the night from 3 weeks old, spoke early, had a very good vocabulary, was bright. Good sense of humour. Did notice her lack of affect when strangers spoke to her...she'd stare them down. Around aged 3-5 she could somewhat dissociate (I didn't call it that then) when there was any tension around. She'd pretend to be a cat and would answer any question with a meow and lick of her hand. It could last a fair while, much to the frustration of her teacher and father, who asked me 'can't you stop her doing that?' I'd reply to leave her be, she'd grow out of it. I did gentle parenting, guidance more than discipline. Her father (aggressive, explosive temper, violent) and I separated when she was 4, chiefly because one day he went for me in her presence and I decided enough was enough. He spent the next 6 years bitter and twisted, stalking, and as confrontational as he could be if I let him. I moved on to a new relationship, had 2 boys, the first she hated with a passion until he was 8, then she was a little kinder to him. I was aware throughout all of this that her Dad was suggesting to her that I was the devil incarnate, but didn't react as it wasn't appropriate to have conversations like that with a child. Left myself in a no-win situation, except to say gently, no, that's not accurate. When she was about 14, and I'd by then had years of 'nasty Mummy, poor Daddy', I told her (briefly) why I'd called time on my marriage. Made no difference. By her teens, she had begun to be emotionally unstable elsewhere, friends, boyfriends, teachers who apparently 'hated' her...anything could send her into an emotional meltdown. I could say something I thought was innocuous like 'here's your clean laundry' and she'd reply 'why, do you think I smell then?' I didn't realise it at the time...it was probably nothing to do with me, she'd been triggered elsewhere but as her primary caregiver, I was always going to be the one who copped it. Nothing has changed since. We'd talk for hours, much support, love, understanding, guidance...many times over I thought she'd finally grown up and we'd turned a corner. Aged 18 I became aware she was drinking heavily, as did her father who had apparently made her his drinking buddy from the age of 14. Since then she's lurched from partner to partner, (one was particularly nasty piece of work, and I think she has PTSD because of it) chaotic lifestyle, alcoholism, couldn't hold down a job, fallen out with numerous friends and guess which muppet has been enabling her by constantly rescuing her? All the while I've been aware that she'd viewed me with jealousy, as she does the boys too. She met a bloke, sweet but useless, and was instantly pregnant. From as soon as baby was born, father coped, mother couldn't. That's changed as kids have grown older, possibly helped by me taking them in 4 years ago. Parents relationship has been an absolutely car crash to watch, and when asked I've counselled until I'm blue in the face. They (she?) will involve me, then later on accuse me of sticking me nose in. It's played out in front of me, and is brutal to endure even after I've gone hands off. When I told her that's what I was going to do, disengage, she had another meltdown. I've finally asked them to leave, given them 6 months; she had an inheritance when her dad died two years ago of 45k, and another one imminent from her aunt. She again panicked and said it wouldn't be enough. I'm useful to babysit, but she's not keen on the kids wanting to be with me. If I cuddled them when they were little she'd quickly prise them out of my arms, 'Mummy needs a cuddle too'. All the evidence over the years was there, and I bl**dy missed it. She's said recently that the reason she's so dysregulated is because I used to hit her when she was little and I've forgotten. Unlikely, but I accepted that's clearly what she thought (although I know she does lie about people. I asked the boys who said 'no way', which I passed on to her. She then took the next opportunity to round on them too...they are trying to push her out of this family, nobody loves her...a real exaggeration and disproportionate emotional reaction. Again. What they do feel is that although she is their sister and they love her to bits, when she's stable she's brilliant company, loving, kind, fun etc..but it can turn on a sixpence and has made them, like me, wary of spending too much time with her. I thought it was just me, but it really isn't. A very disloyal straw poll of her friends and acquaintances have told me the same. She's hard, hard work. So, I've bumped into BPD, had a deep dive on the criteria, and it's seems to me she hits all 9. Dropping the frustration and the 'wtf just happened?' and realising she can't help it, but needs to be aware of it...I've come to conclude that it's horses and water and pointed her in the direction of DBT, which she's keen to embrace. For now. It's attention, but she doesn't accept it might be BPD. It's still 'others'. Mainly me. I was already doing the 'I love you but I won't accept your nastiness, and it's time you grow up, you're 38' and keep having to gently reaffirm the boundaries I need and are am entitled to. She's spooked by the possibility that her youngest brother could easily completely disengage...he's the type to never give airspace to anyone's drama and will not be manipulated. So, to that end, I am telling them what I think I know, and what their views are as to how much, and what help we as a family are willing to give, where each of our boundaries lie, and how the hell we then approach her. What I'd like to know though, is that given the heighted feelings in a person with BPD which leads to the extreme black/white thinking and thus cementing thoughts into events into lies they actually believe...how can we say that the trauma and abuse that the majority of BPDs self-report actually happened at all? We are all trained to believe children first, ask questions later, but when it doesn't manifest until it's being used as a weapon, none of us will ever have any defence! Personally, when she was push, push pushing to get me to admit my abuse of her, or at least admit that I must have forgotten I eventually asked how I could prove a negative? The best I could offer was that I'm sorry that's how she felt, either then or now. Sorry for the long rant, but this even-tempered, easy-going mother 's head is just scrambled right now. And I always thought I had a handle on it all! Aaand breathe!!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Bingo, you've seen through the victim narrative, and you've understood the twisted thinking that happens with pwBPD when they are dysregulated:

"What I'd like to know though, is that given the heighted feelings in a person with BPD which leads to the extreme black/white thinking and thus cementing thoughts into events into lies they actually believe...how can we say that the trauma and abuse that the majority of BPDs self-report actually happened at all? We are all trained to believe children first, ask questions later, but when it doesn't manifest until it's being used as a weapon, none of us will ever have any defence! Personally, when she was push, push pushing to get me to admit my abuse of her, or at least admit that I must have forgotten I eventually asked how I could prove a negative? The best I could offer was that I'm sorry that's how she felt, either then or now."

With BPD, feelings trump facts.  I find that it's better to focus on the feelings underlying the distorted facts.  Is she claiming that you abused her?  That's because she felt intense, enduring pain, and she just can't get over it.  Is she saying you disrespect her?  Maybe she feels inferior and childish.  Is she blaming you for all her current problems?  She probably feels incompetent because she can't solve any problems by herself.  Is she demanding money?  She probably feels entitled, and that you owe her for all the pain you supposedly put her through.  Is she cutting you off, refusing to speak with you?  She probably feels ashamed, too embarrassed to face you after childish or inappropriate behavior.  Or maybe she just wants to inflict pain through her absence, to let you know how much she's hurting inside, even if, secretly, you are relieved to be free of her drama for the moment.  Is she screaming at you when you dare to give another family member attention, for example on a birthday or when they are sick?  She's jealous and afraid that she's lost your undivided attention.  Does she completely melt down in front of family at holidays?  That might be because she can't stand to see others be happy, when she's miserable inside; or it might be because she feels alienated, inferior and/or excluded, because someone else steals the spotlight for a moment.  She can't be happy for someone else because she's so unhappy herself.

The push to get you to admit to wrongdoing can be fraught.  I think you have the right approach--feeling sorry that her feelings were hurt, and saying that you never meant to hurt her.  That's validating her feelings, while not validating the invalid facts.  I can say that with the loved one with BPD in my life, her thinking became extremely distorted.  She accused almost everyone of "abuse," from immediate to extended family, friends, co-workers and roommates.  At first I gave her the benefit of the doubt, but over time, I learned that her fact patterns were wildly distorted.  While there might have been a kernel of truth, such as an argument or an incident, her brain would repeatedly re-cast history making herself out to be a victim, when oftentimes she was the perpetrator!  Over time, what I found out was that her meltdowns ALWAYS coincided with a setback or disappointment in her life.  For example, there was one incident where she threatened a beloved aunt with violence because she felt the aunt was being disrespectful and abusive, when all the aunt did was offer some water on a hot day.  But in the BPD mind, offering water implied that a grown woman didn't know her own hydration needs.  You see, the pwBPD was obsessed about feeling childish, since she was still living in her childhood bedroom and hadn't hit adult milestones like graduating or getting a job, and her feelings of inferiority distorted her view of the world, making her misconstrue a kind gesture as condescension.  That was her BPD distorted logic.  But that's not what really happened.  What really happened was that she didn't get what she wanted when she was visiting with her aunt; she had attended some try-outs, but she didn't get called back.  I think that as the feelings of failure overwhelmed her, she couldn't handle the setback, so her brain found someone else to blame:  her aunt.  A day and a half after the water was offered, her brain twisted the incident into an act of disrespect, her ire spun out of control, and she threatened her aunt with violence to give vent to the frustration of an unrelated setback.  Does that make sense? 

Look, I bet your daughter feels intensely ashamed and incompetent.  She likely thinks you believe she's a failure, a basket case, that she never grew up.  She's still looking backward, blaming you for a horrible childhood, because she's too scared to deal with the present, let alone look forward, make plans and go about achieving her goals.  Maybe she feels you don't love her, because of how poorly she handles herself all the time.  I bet that would feel awful.  Moreover, part of BPD is an unstable and very negative self-image.  That must feel awful, too.  Maybe you could try to focus on some of her good traits and the positive things she does.  I admit, when she's dysregulated, it can be hard to see the good things.  But I try to do that anyway, and whenever I see something positive in my loved one with BPD, no matter how seemingly small or insignificant, I give praise, and I mean it, too.  I confess, sometimes I have trouble hiding my frustration with BPD, and the thing is, she picks up on that.  So I have to watch myself, have a positive attitude and adjust my expectations sometimes, so that my own negativity doesn't feed into hers.  It can be challenging, because she's demanding, but I keep trying.  I have it easy though, because I don't feel guilt, as I'm not her real mom and I didn't raise her.  Even if she tries to blame me for her own problems, I'm certain that her finger pointing is absolutely absurd, and it probably doesn't bother me the way it would if I were her mom.

[Sunshine Island]

Hi, and thanks for your reply.
Yes, now I am aware of the feelings underlying her actions/reactions it's easier to understand, and to a degree, how to proceed with caution!
The claim that I abused her I came from me saying she needs to lean in to the love and help I've provided and continue to provide and she clearly wants, but she herself is hostile and resistant to, and can be cold and distant. She fluctuates between genuine love and genuine hatred and I don't know why. She must have thought about it for days, then came back and said it was because I'd abused her, so she couldn't trust me. I then asked why then, she kept coming back? She switched topic.
There are 'tells' when she does this sort of thing; she pulls her lips behind her teeth when she knows she's lying, or sniffs at the end of a sentence for good victim affect and blame.
Yes, I know she feels childish etc, and I think part of the jealousy towards me is that I'm not easily manipulated, capable and stable, and she feels useless by comparison. She's not, she's highly intelligent, talented and would be very capable if she didn't self-sabotage in order to be a victim and be cared for by others. I've spent years bigging up her talents, achievements and potential, yet still the green eyed monster looks out at others rather than balanced self reflection. I've taken to down-playing myself and others happiness, success, plans etc just to feed her needs.
Luckily, she doesn't scream at me aside from a couple of times which gained her short shrift; I do have boundaries. Her husband doesn't though, and she's also accused him of violence towards her...but not to me because she knows I'd tackle it head on. This she tells to friends who counselled her to leave...but she can't because he's 'the only one who understands'. Or, the only one who's actually willing to put up with this. It's a co-dependent relationship.
I seem to spend every other conversation telling her I'll always love her, she was my first born and no matter what that will never change. I remind her when she's jealous of youngest son's career success that she's the one who got a degree...but it all falls flat on her, determined to be the victim rather than explain the feelings inside and own them.
Once when she'd been particularly vile to me, and it caught a nerve triggering my own (managed I thought) PTSD I reacted badly, angrily, and said that I was disengaging from all her nastiness and drama, and walked away. My reaction was so unusual for me, I went to a counsellor for the very first time to unravel why I'd reacted when I usually let it wash over me, and discovered the bit from my childhood, compounded by my ex-husband and now by her. Dealt with, I put my loving smile back on, apologised for my reaction and we carried on. Except she hadn't, she's been ruminating and focussing on the 'disengage' bit. I then had to clarify that disengage does not mean abandoned but simply that unless she speaks to me honestly, without drama, blame etc I will be ignoring it. It does feel like (again!) Mummy saying 'come back when you're ready to behave'. That though plays right into her narrative of feeling childish! Arrrgh!
She doesn't demand, she manipulates. Financially I've baled her out many many times. Physical help many times. Counselling help, emotional help....all somebody else's fault that she's in need, always a victim, doesn't know which way to turn. She says thanks but never acknowledges the costs of that help for me or anyone else. She doesn't often scream, but that's usually the final fracture in friend/partner relationships (except the father of her children, he takes it until he too explodes right back at her). I think when she's screamed at me she's then stopped and had a major wobble because she's knows she's overstepped the mark with me and IS scared of the consequences. However, I've told her that I'll always love her...so it's now becoming a game of let's see how far I can test this; If I put up with it, I can therefore be pushed back, if I don't I must have lied when I said I love her. I take a deep breath every time I reiterate the red lines, reminding her I love her AND what I will not engage with and say 'you know where I am if you want to talk'.
Currently (with the 6 month 'eviction', they are planning on moving a few hundred miles away, told to me with an expectation of 'no please don't go, I'll never see the grandchildren' but instead got a 'what a wonderful idea, chance for a new start and to build up some independence', but I half expect some form of self-sabotage leading to a 'sorry, can't leave, we'll be homeless'. I've pre-empted that by reminding her she's got roughly 100k to play with, not to squander but to secure her family's future, and if a sale falls through, she must rent. But they can't stay here. She takes great delight in saying she'd do anything for her children, that's what being a good parent is all about. I let the manipulation fall flat and walk away, and she hates that I don't react.

[Pook075]

What I'd like to know though, is that given the heighted feelings in a person with BPD which leads to the extreme black/white thinking and thus cementing thoughts into events into lies they actually believe...how can we say that the trauma and abuse that the majority of BPDs self-report actually happened at all?

Let's say both of us are together somewhere and we both get stung by a bee on the right arm.  I could say, "It didn't hurt at all," while you could say, "It burns and hurts like mad."

Who's lying here?

The answer is neither of us, both descriptions were true to what we felt, how our bodies deal with bee stings, etc.  For my former mother in law, that sting would be fatal if we didn't get her immediate help, yet for me it hurts for about 30 seconds and then I forget about it entirely.  Our bodies simply react differently.

That's talking physical pain though; mental pain is quite different and can actually be a lot more severe since it can linger for years, decades, or even a lifetime.

Going back to my former mother in law, if she sees a bee or even hears one, she has a full blown panic attack.  She's going to drop whatever is in her hands and sprint for the nearest shelter, and she's going to be scared out of her mind.  And that's understandable, she's highly highly allergic to bee stings.  But I've seen her incredibly uncomfortable in dozens of situations where she wasn't stung.

So I'll ask again- is there a lie here?  Or is her pain real in the moment?

Therapists and other professionals are used to dealing with these types of situations and their initial job is to lend support and build trust.  You can't do that while saying, "Are you sure that's true?  It sounds like a lie."  So they listen, compare situations across time, and make a diagnosis.

Even if they realize, "All this trauma is in this person's head...it might not have even happened," they don't directly challenge that because the pain they feel is real; they are traumatized regardless if the events they're describing happened or not.

Make sense?

[CC43]

Hi Sunshine,

Your daughter sounds so much like my BPD stepdaughter, except my stepdaughter isn't married and doesn't have a kid.  But she's smart, and beautiful, and has many talents.  Even so, she's still jealous of others, because she hasn't yet learned that nobody's perfect, or to be grateful for what she does have.  Nevertheless, by now she's learned that she shouldn't have screaming meltdowns like she used to; these days, her behavior tends to be of the passive-aggressive sort.  Yet the victimhood is still there, and she's constantly asking for help, of the financial, physical, technical and emotional kind.  I guess the upshot is that she's not living with us anymore, so it's harder for her to continue to blame us for all her problems.  She should be moving beyond the young adult phase--she should be a "full" adult now, but just can't quite seem to get settled in.  I'm sure she's scared, maybe even terrified, of the notion that she should be able to support herself and make decisions for herself.  For example, she'll say she wants to move to a new city.  I'll say, of course you can choose to move to a new city, you don't have to ask me!  If you want to move, that sounds fantastic, but you need to save up a little first, and find a new job and a new place to live, and you need to sign a lease.  Unfortunately, that's not the answer she wants.  What she wants is for me and her dad to say, Sure, we'll find you a luxury apartment with parking, sign a lease, clean up the place, move you in, and continue to pay for your insurance, food and utilities, and give you spending money too.  She thinks that by moving, her life will be better, but the reality is, no matter where she lives, she can't escape BPD.  And if she doesn't learn to live with herself now, when will she ever learn?  We can't afford to continue to support her 100%, because we're retired.  She absolutely has the brains to work, she just doesn't really want to, because she's scared.

When she starts to blame and complain of abuse, her dad will now say, Wait a minute, you're not being abused now, are you?  If you start dredging up your terrible childhood again, that doesn't make you feel any better, does it?  And it doesn't help you to deal with your life RIGHT NOW, does it?  I think she's starting to see the logic there, but doesn't want to admit it.  She'll typically pull away for a while, because the truth is painful, too.  But because she's getting therapy, it seems that her near-meltdowns don't last as long as they used to, and they don't completely derail her anymore.  She just needs extra support with adulting, lots of hand-holding, cheerleading and nudging in the right direction.  The money issue is coming to a head, but I still have some hopes that she'll get a real job at last.  And she needs to learn that as an adult, she has to work for what she wants, not just her dad and me.

[Sunshine Island]

Hi Pook075,

No, don't misunderstand me, it's not the pain that's the lie, that's subjective, but the actual abuse. In your analogy the bee sting itself isn't in question.(Objective) That can be either true or false. In my daughter's case it's an exaggeration of a single incident, dealt with at the time and never revisited by me. I cuffed her across the top of the head in anger, felt horrified instantly, apologised, cuddled her and promised it would never happen again and it never has. It was situational, and a major erring on my part for which I took, and still take, full responsibility. She said recently that it happened 'all the time', right up until she was 14 and that I obviously don't remember. I asked her for specifics, how many times, what happened etc and she said she didn't know. I asked others (sons, friends, her friends, my partner) and we all appear to be suffering from the same amnesia. That is specific to me. The point I was making is that given that people with BPD often exaggerate or outright lie how can we say with confidence that their environmental abuse in childhood is a cause. I'm more questioning the genetic component I suppose, especially since I'm now wondering if my ex-husband's problems were of a similar nature. I'm also conscious of maybe deflecting blame away from my own parenting in doing so....!

[CC43]

Hi again,

I can relate to the exaggerated claims of abuse and delusional thinking. In my opinion, it is not helpful to admit to abuse if it did not occur, no matter how much she convinces herself it must have been true because of the pain she feels. My stepdaughter had a habit of « testing out » her stories of abuse, to get attention, cry for help or divert attention from current problems. She started out with stories of bullying at school and yelling at home. Then she claimed she might have been raped, but she also said she didn’t remember any details. Later she tried out claiming that her dad had molested her for years, which was untrue. When she was challenged on her claims, she generally withdrew.

I think she was emboldened to claim abuse everywhere, because at first she got all sorts of concessions (such as attention, bail outs, quitting school and not having to work, or being treated to vacations and getting new apartments). And as her periods of delusional thinking got out of control, she was losing touch with reality. Now I have no doubt that she felt pain, distress, frustration, envy, anger, rage, etc., but she was making stuff up to justify her outbursts to herself, and place blame on others. I wouldn’t recommend agreeing with outright lies just to appease her desire for confessions and retribution, because that would be validating the invalid, fomenting delusional thinking and taking blame for something you didn’t do.

Maybe I sound harsh and not empathetic, but I saw how my stepdaughter ruminated over perceived « traumas » for years, exaggerating and distorting facts beyond recognition. I think it didn’t help to agree with untruths, because she’d wallow in her distorted, negative version of reality, re-playing the « traumas » over and over again in her mind until they wore a rut in her brain. And the rut got so jagged and deep it’s a miracle she got out of it. That’s why my opinion is it’s not very helpful to validate delusional thinking.  Empathizing with feelings is one thing, but taking blame for untrue accusations doesn’t help in my opinion, and probably makes things worse, as she diverts the focus from what is really happening in her life. My opinion is, if she’s dredging up ancient incidents from childhood but twisting facts beyond recognition, that’s a tactic to blame YOU for something that isn’t going her way in her life TODAY  She’s deflecting attention away from the real problem, because simply can’t cope. But it’s impossible to solve today’s issues if she’s stuck in a delusional past. It’s weird, she can’t change the past, but her brain tries to by re-casting past events to fit her victim narrative. That’s not very healthy in my opinion.

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075,

No, don't misunderstand me, it's not the pain that's the lie, that's subjective, but the actual abuse. In your analogy the bee sting itself isn't in question.(Objective) That can be either true or false. In my daughter's case it's an exaggeration of a single incident, dealt with at the time and never revisited by me. I cuffed her across the top of the head in anger, felt horrified instantly, apologised, cuddled her and promised it would never happen again and it never has. It was situational, and a major erring on my part for which I took, and still take, full responsibility. She said recently that it happened 'all the time', right up until she was 14 and that I obviously don't remember. I asked her for specifics, how many times, what happened etc and she said she didn't know. I asked others (sons, friends, her friends, my partner) and we all appear to be suffering from the same amnesia. That is specific to me. The point I was making is that given that people with BPD often exaggerate or outright lie how can we say with confidence that their environmental abuse in childhood is a cause. I'm more questioning the genetic component I suppose, especially since I'm now wondering if my ex-husband's problems were of a similar nature. I'm also conscious of maybe deflecting blame away from my own parenting in doing so....!

I can relate- I remember when my BPD daughter was 4 or 5, and she was full of energy yelling and running through the house.  So I grabbed her by the arm and tried to pop her butt, but she was fighting me and jumping and I ended up popping her thigh instead.  Because I was so angry, it left a deep hand print and I instantly felt horrible- I never spanked her again.

Luckily, my kid doesn't remember this or it would be the same as your situation, because she's done that with so many other things and twisted the story into something else entirely.  I also have a BPD ex wife who would attack me, only to remember me pushing her away or defending myself.  So I definitely understand and completely relate.

My only point is that their emotional pain builds over time as they blame others around them and build narratives that simply weren't true.  To them though, it's true in their mind so the pain is just as real as if it happened from their warped narratives.

Your job as mom is to soothe the emotional pain ("I'm so sorry you feel that way") while not talking about the physical accusation ("I did not grab you by the head for 10+ years").  For your kid, it's a fact that she's convinced herself of...the same as the sky is blue.  So you can't fight that viewpoint.  You can, however, let your daughter know that you love her and have her best interests at heart today.

Me personally, I told my BPD kid (now 26) that I always did the best i could in a lousy situation while raising her, and that I forgive her for everything as well.  Me giving forgiveness actually had a much bigger effect than the apology though, and it allowed us to move past all the he said/she said stuff that weighed on her heart.  This was during DBT therapy though and that had a big role in that as well.

[Sunshine Island]

CC43,

Yes, you've hit the nail right on the head. Exactly that. I think the extremeness of the most recent accusation is because I'm sticking to my guns in terms of them moving out...she's terrified of me not being there to bail her out in a myriad of ways when they move. She has the choice to not move so far away, but between them they've decided their problems are because of everyone else around them, including me and the family, so a new start miles away will be a good thing. (If she can hack it, it may well be the very best thing, imo) Basically, she's backed herself into a corner she can't get out of, and is wobbling badly. She does know where safety and consistency lies, in spite of how she behaves! My guidance from here on in will be to help her learn that the emotional wobbles have to be held but not reacted on, until the logical mind has the chance to regain balance and choose from one of the many options available, none of them are unsafe, none of them cast in stone, and to simply swerve when life chucks an unknown in her path. We'll see. And thank you all for your responses...it's simply nice to get it all off my chest and say it out loud! xx

[CC43]

Hi again,

My stepdaughter is also contemplating a move, and I think it is terrifying her, for the same reasons you describe:  though she supposedly "hates" where she is now (i.e. with roommates, near where she grew up), she lives close to her dad and me, and we continue to provide all sorts of support, from financial and emotional to logistical and feeding her dinners.  She's desperate to leave, but she's having trouble getting going, because she has to start by getting a real job (and keeping it!).  She says she wants to move to a big, expensive city, probably in the hopes that her dad and I make the move happen for her.  Though she's a full-grown adult, she still doesn't seem to grasp basic life skills, like needing first and last month's rent to sign a lease, and being able to demonstrate to a landlord that she can afford to pay rent.  I bet she doesn't understand insurance (health, auto, renters) because her dad has always paid for that.  It's tax time, and I doubt she'll file to get a refund (which she surely has coming), unless her dad files for her.  Now I agree with you, if she can pull off a move, it might be the best thing that ever happened to her.  But it seems to me she just isn't making much progress on the job application front, or even on figuring out how much income she'll need to afford an apartment where she wants to live--I doubt she understands how insurance and taxes will be deducted from her gross pay.  The notion that she can afford to live in relative luxury in her desired city with an easy, entry-level job, no commute and no continuing familial support is delusional in my opinion.  I'm bracing myself for a meltdown, but I want to remain positive, too.  Ug!  If she fails and moves back in with us, that will be the end for everyone.

[Sunshine Island]

Hi CC43,

No, they don't seem to understand how the mechanics of life work, and for years I saw it as a manipulation...she clearly got something out of not understanding....it meant total help on my part, and total abdication on hers! Mine though, even when guided is particularly resistant to even trying to learn! Yours doesn't ever have to move back in if you know she's been sorted and you have that boundary of unacceptable.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Sunshine Island]

Hi Pook 075,

Yes, understanding and acknowledging the pain she feels with her memories is one thing, but our realities of what actually happened is another. We've talked today about validation, apropos of another family thing coming up which I'd asked if she wanted to come to, while knowing that she hasn't said anything to me at all about the hurt texts she gave her brothers. I've spoken to them, and they've both said they love her and want to have a free and easy relationship with her, but won't buy into the drama but also acknowledge her pain. They'd also like to help, but are at a loss with her intransigence and her determination to feel no responsibility for her attack on them. She will not see that her feelings are not their responsibility!
I myself blew it when again when she said she couldn't have a genuine conversation with them because she doesn't want to offload the abuse she suffered at my hands as they wouldn't believe her either. I said she could, but her recollection was different from ours and she'd have to accept that's the way they, and I, experienced it. Just differently. It appears that she's thought about it and feels totally justified in believing that none of us truly love her or want to understand in spite of the last text my son sent, which was I'm so sorry you felt hurt, it wasn't my intention to exclude you, it just happened that way, to which she relied...'not good enough'. She thinks he should have done more. HE should pick up the phone, HE should be the one to automatically include her, He should.... etc. He's willing to leave it, not revisit it, but that means we are all wary (her included) of spending time together because she will feel unwanted. But NOT including her will most definitely lead to that! Forgive me for feeling this, but I can't wait for her to go sometimes. Her projection knows no bounds sometimes. I asked her earlier to look at it all from another perspective...what might our motivations be for deliberately excluding her or wanting her to feel pain. Her reply was that we all needed a scapegoat now that I had 'decided' she was mentally ill and had labelled her, and I'd always done it to cause a rift between her and her brothers. Circular thinking, and I'm again at a loss. I feel like hands off is my best bet, for us all. Yes, that buys into her narrative but she will not move from feeling validated in her extreme reaction. Some days I'm so tempted to simply agree with her. I except I love her, and her happiness is worth trying again another day.

[Pook075]

I myself blew it when again when she said she couldn't have a genuine conversation with them because she doesn't want to offload the abuse she suffered at my hands as they wouldn't believe her either.

This is simply manipulation and forcing you to play her game.  The easy answer is not to do it at all, don't have the conversation and walk away when you're being unfairly blamed.  When my daughter does that to me, I cut her out of my life (including financially) until she can actually appreciate our relationship and treat me fairly.

For a few years, we really didn't talk except when she was in trouble.  And eventually she realized the need for therapy and made genuine strides to change her life.  Today, we are friends and get along really well....but she pays her own bills and she does not blame me for anything.  We've both apologized and moved on from that constant hurt.