Made-up stories and limits

[Parents! Get help here!]

Things continue to spiral.
I am holding my limits against the daily, raging calls. (Yay!)
I usually take the first call, and when she rages and hangs up, I stop answering and text: I am open to civil conversations when you are ready.
That sets off 50-100 calls, lots of mean texts that I do not respond to.
Then that turns into the next day's rage - I ignored.

What's especially hard is the rewriting of history.

We are accused of refusing to pay medical bills (we've paid), refusing to help her with some repairs (we've offered but asked for a vendor estimate) not paying for another school program (we asked for details first) not calling her in months (definitely not true, and I'm asked to stop when I do), not seeing her (some is limit-setting after rages, but other times, she refuses the offer) not apologizing (I have).

There's a drop-down list of grievances, and at least one becomes the focus of every call. DBT experts seem to say that you don't engage with abuse, but what if that's the only communication? If it's not verbal awfulness, it's desperate pleas to answer once I've stepped away. She sees it as ignoring.

Question:

- What responses do you use when confronted with behavior, words, etc., you truly did not do? I say- I don't recall it that way, but that sounds like it hurts. (She hates that response. She wants me to admit I did it).

- What do you do if your partner doesn't use skills? Her dad has been way more patient and kind than in the past, but it's a lot. When he finally has enough, he says things I cringe at. I can't control it, though - he's not open to hearing about skills.

- When your loved one has been in daily dysregulation (if they have been), how do you handle contact?

Welcome your experiences. Thank you!

[SoVeryConfused]

Things continue to spiral.
I am holding my limits against the daily, raging calls. (Yay!)
I usually take the first call, and when she rages and hangs up, I stop answering and text: I am open to civil conversations when you are ready.
That sets off 50-100 calls, lots of mean texts that I do not respond to.
Then that turns into the next day's rage - I ignored.

What's especially hard is the rewriting of history.

We are accused of refusing to pay medical bills (we've paid), refusing to help her with some repairs (we've offered but asked for a vendor estimate) not paying for another school program (we asked for details first) not calling her in months (definitely not true, and I'm asked to stop when I do), not seeing her (some is limit-setting after rages, but other times, she refuses the offer) not apologizing (I have).

There's a drop-down list of grievances, and at least one becomes the focus of every call. DBT experts seem to say that you don't engage with abuse, but what if that's the only communication? If it's not verbal awfulness, it's desperate pleas to answer once I've stepped away. She sees it as ignoring.

Question:

- What responses do you use when confronted with behavior, words, etc., you truly did not do? I say- I don't recall it that way, but that sounds like it hurts. (She hates that response. She wants me to admit I did it).

- What do you do if your partner doesn't use skills? Her dad has been way more patient and kind than in the past, but it's a lot. When he finally has enough, he says things I cringe at. I can't control it, though - he's not open to hearing about skills.

- When your loved one has been in daily dysregulation (if they have been), how do you handle contact?

Welcome your experiences. Thank you!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Hi Confused,

It sounds to me like you're experiencing an extinction burst, which is a fancy way of saying that your daughter is pushing back on your boundaries by using her usual tactics (tantrums, accusations, etc.).  Kudos to you for recognizing when the reaction becomes abusive, and for disengaging to protect yourself, in addition to hoping that your daughter eventually learns better self-control and civility.  Alas, what I've seen from the pwBPD in my life is persistence and stubbornness.  She clings to the victim narrative, even when it means she's lying to herself and others.  That includes substantial re-writing of history.

Look, when I hear the usual resuscitation of ancient grievances, it sounds to me like she's focusing on the past, because she's avoiding dealing with the present and future.  Why?  Because she's SCARED.  She likely feels fear, uncertainty, incompetence, loneliness, immaturity and/or anxiety.  She's so afraid of the future that she's dredging up the past as a distraction, while simultaneously blaming YOU for her problems.

I've seen this sort of behavior from the pwBPD in my life many times, though she tends to cut off communications quickly and isolate, retreating in avoidance.  It's only a matter of time when she'll emerge from her isolation.  Usually she'll resume contact when she wants something (e.g. money).  Sometimes she'll resume contact and pretend that nothing happened--to me, that's the best scenario.  And sometimes, she'll resume contact and continue right where she left off.  When that happens, she's typically in a very bad state, spinning out of control and sometimes appearing to lose touch with reality.  I see it as a sure sign that she's not coping very well in her current situation, and she's blaming her family.  It may be that she's struggling in school, at work and/or her living situation.  When she's tried to cope on her own in isolation, she feels like she just can't do it.  She feels like a failure.  When she hits her limit, she'll resume contact and lash out in misguided "retribution."  That to me is a sure sign that she's really struggling in her life.  It would be easier to validate her if she were able to speak honestly about her current issues.  But she struggles to identify what's really going on, and her proposed solutions aren't tenable.  On top of that, her priorities seem misplaced, and her expectations are impossible to meet.  So she is constantly disappointed by others, and most of all by herself.  When she's in a rage, it's almost impossible to say the right thing, because nothing will make her feel better at that moment.  So don't beat yourself up too much for saying the wrong thing.

[SoVeryConfused]

I can relate to much of what you’ve written. Except the avoidance. I only get raging and blaming.

I think you are right that -like your LO- she’s not happy in the here and now, and to be honest, hasn’t been happy for a long while. And doesn’t know what she wants for the future. Is scared.

I know the rage is a secondary expression, but it’s so abusive, and it’s wearing me down. I feel bad she’s sad, scared etc. but if she won’t stop raging so we can be supportive to her, there’s not much I can do.

I spend so much time on ChatGPT writing scripts for the calls. But have come to realize it’s pointless.  It doesn’t matter what I say.

[Notwendy]

Things continue to spiral.

Question:

- What responses do you use when confronted with behavior, words, etc., you truly did not do? I say- I don't recall it that way, but that sounds like it hurts. (She hates that response. She wants me to admit I did it).

- What do you do if your partner doesn't use skills? Her dad has been way more patient and kind than in the past, but it's a lot. When he finally has enough, he says things I cringe at. I can't control it, though - he's not open to hearing about skills.

- When your loved one has been in daily dysregulation (if they have been), how do you handle contact?

I've been accused of all kinds of things and history was re-written. I tried to keep in mind that just because someone says or thinks something about me, that doesn't make it true and tried to not emotionally respond to it. It's frustrating when the accusation is about an honest effort to do something good for the pwBPD. This is a part of their disordered thinking- we can't change that.

Whenever a behavior persisist- one has to consider it's being or been reinforced somehow. All behaviors are learned. Somewhere along the way, the calling you up and raging has worked for her. If there is a boundary, a stopping of the reinforcement, the person will keep trying the behavior that previously worked- even more, until they see that it doesn't work like it did before. That's the extinction burst. It's crucial that you hold on to the boundary.

You don't have to tell anyone what the boundary is. It's your own decision about what action you do. It seems here that the boundary is - if your D calls, you will answer the first time. If she's raging at you, you will not react emotionally but will calmly say something that leads to ending the call. Then you won't answer repeated calls/texts.

I think honesty is best but in my situation, when a conversation sounded like it was taking a direction that was dysregulated, I felt like anything I said might be interpreted differently, so I chose a neutral one. "I have to go now, I have a work meeting, or there's a package at the door I need to sign for" .

I learned to not use the word "you" but make it about me. If I were to say "you need to calm down" that went in the wrong direction. Making the reason for ending the call about me- "I have a package to sign for" "I have to run an errand" was less of an emotional response. I did not discuss my feelings. That would be emotional.

You can't do or say anything that will change your D's thinking but you can maintain the boundary of - one pick up- if it's raging- that's the one and keep at it. Eventually an extinction burst doesn't last but how long it does - it's not possible to know.

As to how your H responds- each of you is different in how you handle your own relationship with your D. She will also form her own relationship with each of you. Your H will handle it in his own way. Your D knows that each parent is a different person to relate to. Your role is to manage yours.

How do I handle contact with a disregulated person? By not adding my emotions to the situation. If it's the phone call- you have the one call boundary. If it's in person you can exit the room and not engage.

I avoided situations where this might happen. When I visited BPD mother, I did with other people with me. She was more likely to not do this when other people were around. If you do have contact with your D- have someone with you.

One idea when she calls is to have the phone on speaker and have the two of you speak to her together. I did this when BPD mother wanted to speak to my kids. The kids felt vulnerable one on one with her so we called her on speaker phone all together.

[SoVeryConfused]

She has been calling in her now-typical disrespectful way to demand things. One of them was payment for a therapist. We said we would help pay. I did give her a cc number two nights ago. She called her dad tonight demanding the card again and told him it would be $200/week. He was shocked, but I shook my head yea- she needs help.

He said ok- I’ll have to call you back in a minute. She says- well,  you can’t. I have you blocked. You’ll have to email. Mouth hangs open.

My husband responds - you are asking for money but have me blocked?  I’m not comfortable with that.

She loses her mind. Rage texts. Calls etc.lots of swearing and threats. We didn’t take the calls.

I texted finally - we want to support your therapy and healthcare - we care. We just can’t support that while being blocked and name called.  These messages aren’t good for any of us right now so I’m going to stop responding. If you want to talk about this respectfully tomorrow, let us know.

I desperately want her to get help. But It seems like a bad precedent and not modeling healthy relationships to provide money in this way even for this. Thoughts? Right choice?

Also, it almost seemed like she was gloating to tell him he was blocked. To hurt him. To test whether he would still give the cc. She didn’t have to tell him- she seemed to want to.

 

[CC43]

I think your reply was spot on. If you reward bad behavior with access to your credit card, it will only continue (and with BPD, probably escalate).  Worse, she would learn it’s OK to treat other people this way, and that isn’t good for her in the long run. Yet you keep the lines of communication open for tomorrow.  She can have a time out and see if she can get control of herself and start to treat you right.

[Notwendy]

I would call the CC company and cancel that card. She has the number now.

I may be going out on a limb here- as you know your D better- but on another thread, there's discussion of mixed PD's. The PD's can overlap. This is something similar to what my BPD mother did- play on one's empathy- and it gave her a sense of power. My BPD mother was a combination of BPD/NPD and some ASPD. She would sometimes be deliberately hurtful, for no apparent reason. Her BPD traits were the strongest, but some behaviors were in line with NPD and ASPD.

This did not seem to be a sincere request for help. If this were my BPD mother- it would be to "one up" you with your emotional vulnerability. My BPD mother would do that- get at my emotions, and then, change her position. I would also get the sense that she'd been pleased with herself if she did that.

Your D knows what you are emotionally vulnerable about. Yes, you very much want her to get help. The phone call gave you hope. Then - the block.

BPD mother knew what we were emotionally vulnerable about. One of mine was sentimental items- items that belonged to my father or family heirloom items. She'd offer one to me, ask me what I wanted and then, refuse to let me have it.

I did have empathy for BPD mother. It was especially difficult when BPD mother was in assisted living as she had some real medical issues but the pattern would be - she'd have a medical situation, I'd get involved- speaking with her care team, getting a plan in place and then, once everyone did all the work to get the care plan in place- she'd change her mind, not want to do it, or then blame me or the staff for something. It was an emotional roller coaster as I was genuinely concerned about her and so got involved and then it would  not work out.

I do understand how this pulls at your feelings. This is your daughter- and this was my own mother. If a family member is in real need- we do want to help to the extent we are able to. But we also need to keep a view of the line between what is a real need and what is a manipulation. What is really helping, enabling, and allowing abusive behavior. Saying "no" doesn't feel natural but sometimes it's the appropriate response.

That phone call - the quick switch between asking for help and then blocking you. IMHO, if someone were sincere about therapy, they'd not have done that. The other option if you did want to help with therapy would be to have the provider contact you with the bill, not give the CC # to your D. You also have to take care of yourself. $200 a week is a lot of money. You and your H also have your own needs to provide for.

It may also help to take a look at your D's behavior patterns and see if there's an aspect of her being hurtful on purpose. This was a difficult reality to acknowlege for me. She was both a pwBPD in emotional distress, and also could be hurtful at times- and I wanted to have boundaries with those times.

IMHO, your H had the right response. In addition, I think it would be wise to cancel that CC so she doesn't misuse it.

[CC43]

P.S.

My husband pays for his adult BPD daughter's therapy bills directly.  First, she's not able to make enough money to pay the bills herself anyway.  I'm pretty sure that when she initially found her therapist, she would have wanted for her dad to be responsible for payments, and she would have signed the appropriate release.  Second, by receiving the invoices, her dad could keep tabs on whether or not his daughter attended sessions, as the invoices would have cancellation fees or some other indication of missed sessions.  Third, since he was involved in her care, he was able to maintain a dialogue with the therapist at critical junctures.  I'm not saying that he hijacked her therapy or was over-involved, but I am saying that there were times when his BPD daughter appeared to become unhinged, and a 10-minute conversation or email with the therapist could provide beneficial mutual insights, as well as enable a more unified approach.  After all, a loving parent can be a critical ally in supporting someone through treatment--financially, emotionally, logistically--especially treatment for BPD which can take months or even years of consistent therapy.

Just my two cents.  Let us know how you get on if you can.

[SoVeryConfused]

Thank you, NotWendy and CC43! I really appreciate you taking the time to read and comment. I feel a bit stuck.

I was so desperate to get her into therapy,  I thought what the heck.... I'll turn off the card if necessary. So far, she hasn't used it, and if she does, I'll lock it. She has called and texted 100+ times today, mostly to get the CC and pour on blame. That we wrecked her and we have a responsibility to fix her.

I have her on do not disturb and did not reply to any. That was hard. My husband took calls and then texted his same boundary message after mostly raging. She moved to begging, pleading and saying she needs her mom. She may mean it, but she's also desperate for us to answer.

I understand responding after all of that would reinforce dysregulated communication and behavior. I haven't blocked her outright because I don't want to throw gasoline on the fire of abandonment but she's silenced. Hardest thing I did today. She's persistent.

Likely it will start again tomorrow with calls, texts, to blaming and guilt me for ignoring.I want to be ready.

I asked ChatGPT for BPD-informed guidance:

“Repairing the rupture is important—but only when the behavior shows the person is ready to reconnect in a safe way.”
— Marsha Linehan, DBT Founder, Skills Training Manual
You’re not required to maintain constant access. When your child expresses accountability, calm, or remorse, that may be a green light to gently respond.

I'm not sure she ever will.

[Notwendy]

I have another idea. When any behavior persists, there's got to be some reinforcement somewhere. Even a negative response can be reinforcement. Perhaps it's your emotionally reacting to her in some way and even your attempts to control how she speaks to you.

I wonder how a schedule would work for both of you. I understand your wanting to be available and also for her to not speak to you in this way. Which part of this can you control? Your availablility.

What you are trying to accomplish is for her to speak in a more respectful way. But she's going to say whatever she decides- one can not control her speech. Perhaps this is adding to the drama. She calls, says these things, you react. What if you just didn't react?

One possible boundary for you is to not accept the calls as you are doing,  but as you have seen- this doesn't result in her changing her behavior- at least not yet- and it also causes you concern about her needing contact and you not being available.

Another idea is to "solve this issue" on your end only. Even with pleasant calls, it's not possible to be available all the time 24/7 to anyone. Sometimes we are taking a shower, watching a movie, sleeping..

Decide on a "window" of availability. If she calls, text back that you are in a meeting or can't come to the phone at the moment, but are available between certain times. It would be good to have a regular schedule. By not taking her call or blocking her- she doesn't know the end point of that.

I'd be willing to bet she doesn't call during that time- just like when she blocks you. OK fine- it's her hour anyway to do what she chooses. If she does call- she gets that time to say whatever she chooses. During this time, you mostly listen, but you can do other things- put her on speaker phone- and fold the laundry, load the dishwasher- do tasks that don't require your concentration on them. Respond with short neutral answers "I understand you feel this way" or sorry this is so awful for you". Don't agree to the accusations but also don't defend yourself. It adds fuel to the drama.

You will be establishing a schedule, a window of availability. For this to work, you will need to be consistent as there is likely an extinction burts first.

You can periodically block her number (don't tell her you are doing that) to give you some safe time. Unblock her during your "availability" and then say you can't stay on the phone, you have a meeting when time is up.

Perhaps the less you react emotionally, the less reinforcement this gets. Or it's how she thinks and there's not much you can do about that. But at least there's some contact, according to your deciding to be available.

[SoVeryConfused]

That's an interesting idea. Thank you. I could try that. I like that. I'm available at 5-5:30 if you want to call then. I'll try that.

I did a related thing today. She was calling and calling and texting and texting.
I responded and said - "I care. I can't do phone calls right now. I'm open to texting if it stays respectful. If it can't, I'll have to step back."

Got disgruntled texts - fine, goodbye, you've ignored me for months etc. And a dozen calls. But I did not answer and it's stopped. Very difficult.

I will try your tactic, though when a situation comes up.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders