D5 is asking to see Granny…

[thankful person]

Hi all,

So I’ve been discussing on the conflicted board how I can possibly lay down boundaries so that the children can see my mother. I want to protect my right to do this, but my wife does not want it. My wife has no reason to dislike Mum or keep the children from seeing her. We are in a lesbian marriage but these children were ivf babies, biologically dbpdw’s but legally half mine.

My Mum is dealing with a lot right now having lost my Dad recently. She is 80 years old and lives six hours away and the weather is getting worse this time of year. My wife is not open to Mum seeing the children in person at all… not in a park.. not if Mum stays in a hotel.. not AT ALL though she does allow FaceTime but not with the baby but she left me with the baby the other day so I did it anyway and she didn’t comment when she found out.

I was not going to tackle this issue until the New Year for various reasons. But D5 has been worried about Granny being lonely without Grandad. And today she said directly to dbpdw, “Can Granny come and see us? Here, in this house?” Dbpdw just said, “No.” without explanation. I was sitting at the table with them both. D5 decided to address the question to dbpdw even though she knows Granny is my mother, she somehow senses this is dbpdw’s decision possibly she has heard some discussion of this issue, but I’m not sure. But my question is this: was I right to say nothing at this point in time, when the question was not addressed to me? Also, how is it best to respond if D5 does ask me directly about this? And would my response be different depending on whether dbpdw was there or not? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

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[Pook075]

With kids, it's so tough because you have to be their voice.  So if your partner is refusing something that matters to you and matters to your daughter, in my opinion it's a discussion worth having.

My advice, stop walking on eggshells and choose a path.  Your mom could visit, you could visit mom, or you could meet somewhere in-between.  Your partner's opinion matters and you should not be dismissive of it, but at the same time she has no right to cut you off from your family.  There must be a compromise somewhere in the middle. 

I'd take the kid to see granny, and I wouldn't "ask for permission".  Either you're an actual parent or you're not.  If you are, then tell your partner of your plans, calmly explain why it matters, and then ask if she wants to participate.  I'd say how your mom won't be here much longer and the child deserves to know grandma, how you deserve to have those memories as well.

It might be a blowout fight, it might be a rift in your relationship.  But at the same time, you can't walk on eggshells and expect the relationship to last forever.  That strategy never, ever works.  You can stand up for yourself in a loving, compassionate way while still disagreeing.

[thankful person]

I'd take the kid to see granny, and I wouldn't "ask for permission".  Either you're an actual parent or you're not.  If you are, then tell your partner of your plans, calmly explain why it matters, and then ask if she wants to participate.  I'd say how your mom won't be here much longer and the child deserves to know grandma, how you deserve to have those memories as well.

Pook, thank you for your response. I do feel absolutely terrible about this situation, and I do realise that I’m not being a good enough parent or daughter right now. I’m not sure what your comment about being an “actual parent” meant. I am doing my best. I am far beyond going along with what my wife wants to keep the peace. I have told her that I am truly disgusted that she wants to keep my mother from seeing the children. I would and will do anything it takes. I actually attempted and failed to tackle this topic on this board a few months ago. If you are able to locate that post (I’m not sure how), you would see that the conclusion everyone seemed to come to was that there’s no way my mother can see the kids without my wife’s approval. I said in the conflicted board that this has made me feel totally powerless… I’d made all these changes such as wearing clothes dbpdw told me not to wear… and she couldn’t stop me. But this is different. I am still holding a slither of hope that w could somehow change her mind about Mum. Just because well that would be so much easier if she invited her. But assuming that’s not to happen. It seems like I’m initiating all out war in going against her wishes. If I’m to try and suggest a compromise… I know she will say, NO. I do not want the children to see your mother and I will stop it from happening. So, whatever I had planned… She would be prepared to physically stop me. She is stronger than me and can easily restrain me. This behaviour has stopped, but does return when my mother is a topic of disagreement. My wife can and will throw me out of the house. She can restrain the children to prevent them leaving with me. She can order them not to go with me. I am devastated, truly broken over this situation. I don’t even know what I would say to Mum. So please help me because I want to create a plan although I think it will be in a few months time. So I would say to my wife, it is important to me that the children see my mother in person, and I would like to do this in a way that is least upsetting to you. She will say, NO WAY. Then I will say, I am going to arrange something anyway. She will say, I will stop you from taking the children. I will take them away etc etc. We have actually had these exact conversations already a few months ago. At that point, I did not choose to go further into this plan by actually inviting my mother to somehow meet up somewhere. I would have to say, dbpdw still doesn’t want you to see the kids but I would like you to so let’s try and arrange something. I am not a deceitful person and I can’t imagine not telling Mum and pretending everything is ok when she knows my wife’s feelings. At this point I think Mum would say, know what I think I’ll give it a miss it sounds like too much trouble. I honestly am so confused because I feel like a total failure but I just don’t understand how I can do this when I know my wife will not back down. Either w will sense I’m about to try something and will change her mind and invite Mum herself. Failing that, the only way I can imagine taking the kids to see Granny would be to take them without her consent, during a moment she leaves them in my care. Again this is too deceitful and I know it would be very bad for my marriage.

[Pook075]

I apologize for the "actual parent" comment- I meant either you're a parent with full parental rights, or you're not.  For instance, I had a friend raised by a mom and a cousin that stayed there...the cousin wasn't a parent even though they did everything a dad would do. 

But you're an actual parent, right?  In other words, you have the legal rights to do everything a parent can do.  If so, my advice would be a lot different than if you weren't.  If you're not a legal parent, then the only path forward is convincing your partner to work with you.

Sorry again, I should have said "legal parent" to begin with...that's what I meant but didn't think of it at the time.

Okay, you want a plan.  Let's start on that now.

1)  How is your relationship with your spouse on other things?  I'm talking just general daily communication, spending time together, etc.  Are you a happy couple in general?

2)  If you were to express why you'd need to spend some time with your mother, what would you say?  This isn't about the kids...not yet.  This is about you only.  Why does it matter to you emotionally to see your mom and spend some time with her?

This is so important to express to your partner because they have a great fear of abandonment.  When you say, "I want to spend some time with my mom," they're thinking, "I'm a lousy partner and don't give them everything they need."  So panic sets in and they lash out through disordered thinking.  It's not about your mom at all, it's about control.

So you need to talk this out compassionately- mom has always been there for me, I feel like a terrible person that I'm not there for her right now.  I have to do it, it's breaking my heart, and I'd love for you to support me on this.  Again, this is not about the kids...not yet...it's about YOU and what YOU need emotionally as a person.  You must "paint mom white", someone you care about and need in your life...that's what your partner can understand.

At the same time though, you also need to make your partner feel safe and secure.  I choose you and I hope that you'll go with me.  They probably won't, and that's fine, but you still show that they're important and this isn't an either/or scenario (either you support me on this, or I choose my mom over you).  That's the disordered thinking that prevents a relationship with the kids, and you need to change that narrative compassionately by talking about yourself.

3)  Maybe you visit mom alone at first, or maybe your whole family goes (which is your goal).  But either way, you go see mom, spend some quality time, and then come back home excited to see your spouse.  Make a short getaway a positive result in your relationship, even if your partner is bitter at first.  Come home with a small gift, show affection, etc.  Let your partner see that mom isn't a threat and it's good for your mental health.

4)  From there, re-assess and see what happens.  Talk to mom a little more, let the kids say hi on the phone, ease into the relationship with your partner's approval.  The main thing is changing the narrative that mom is the enemy...you need to make mom an ally.

Make sense?

[thankful person]

Thank you Pook, for the apology and further ideas. Yes I am a legal parent and I wouldn’t say this if it was just wishful thinking. Fyi, in the UK, if a couple undergoes ivf treatment together then both have the same legal rights as you would if a baby was created “naturally”, no matter whose sperm or egg was used. For this reason, I am on all of the children’s birth certificates and have equal legal rights as my wife, although she likes to throw it in my face, “they’re NOT YOUR KIDS” at times like this.

I will think carefully about what you have said. I think me seeing Mum is less threatening… I initially loved the idea of setting the challenge to see my Mum before Christmas. But the trouble is the distance and travel time. So, when my Dad died, and for his funeral, both times I helped my wife get the kids in bed then drove for about 5 hours arriving at about 2am then left less than 12 hours later to get back here to help with the next bedtime. We have four children aged between 10 months and 5 years. We have no one nearby to help with childcare and my wife’s parents are also a long way away, only her Dad can drive, and they won’t stay here because they won’t leave their cats. So I don’t know how I can say I’m going to stay with Mum for two nights. Also, my wife has just started college and she’s needing lots of help from me with her homework, despite the fact we never have a moment together alone to work on it. So I think before Christmas could be a bit too ambitious.

Also there is no point in me inviting my wife to come and see Mum without the kids, because we have no one to take care of them. And I don’t know how Mum would feel about doing the journey up here (she’s happy to stay in a hotel) if she was only going to see me and not the kids. The last couple of times she only got to see them for a few hours a few days running as my wife’s rules were getting stricter, but Mum was happy with it. She loves those kids. D4 has only met Mum a few times but out of choice she told her, “I love you Granny” on the phone the other night. I could tell how happy my Mum was.

[Pook075]

Also there is no point in me inviting my wife to come and see Mum without the kids, because we have no one to take care of them. And I don’t know how Mum would feel about doing the journey up here (she’s happy to stay in a hotel) if she was only going to see me and not the kids.

I completely agree, and the end-goal here is to have your mom as a part of the extended family.  Your life sounds pretty busy and having mom visit from time to time would probably be a welcome set of extra hands.

For now though, you just need to find the place to start- which is saying why you must be there for your mom while she's dealing with loss and grief.  Make this conversation about you and your needs only.  It's implied if you visit mom, then eventually that will pave the road to the kids being around grandma too.  There's no reason to get into all that now since it's a trigger for your partner. 

The only goal today is to help her understand how you feel about your mom.  While you haven't said anything about it here, I'm guessing your partner's relationship with parents could be strained.  Is that true?