advice needed

[Roper]

Hi,
My daughter aged 42 has been sectioned under the Uk mental health acts for about 7 weeks.Whilst  we have been asked for background information surrounding her behaviour we have not been told of her diagnosis and treatment because she has refused to allow our involvement.
She has two young sons aged 9 and 10 that live with their father but are able to see our daughter when she is well.Our daughter has also refused to allow the doctors to share her treatment and diagnosis with her ex husband even though there is a Court order requiring her to disclose so that proper arrangements can be made for the children when she is unwell
She is blocking contact with me but is speaking to her father and is in complete denial of her behaviour that led to her being sectioned She had tested positive for cocaine and spice and has become a regular user of cannabis and THC She has always denied ever taking drugs so we were unaware of this drug use She denies she has put the boys at risk with two of the unsuitable men she has been in relationships with.Her presentation at the hospital involved very frightening delusions.
I appreciate she is entitled to make any choices as an adult but our concern is our grandchildren. Whilst the decision over contact has to be for their father we are very involved in the care of the children and they spend most weekends with us.
I have read the books and do understand that she will find it difficult to accept her behaviour She has already adopted the victim approach blaming me particularly She has also claimed she has a number of fictitious illnesses such as Parkinson and heart failure . She claims the hospital say there is nothing wrong with her.She is high functioning very articulate and capable of being very manipulative She also has no problem in lying.
She expects to be discharged tomorrow
I am struggling to know how we should deal with this because of the boys. If she refuses to accept what has happened how  can we safely create with their father  the ability for her to start seeing the children again?
.We are not allowed to be involved with her mental health team that in the past has been helpful. I think we are in an impasse because this hospital stay has exposed the level of her risky behaviour that she had managed to hide from us and which has put the boys at risk
 Do we calmly set out the facts and try to agree rules regarding her time with the boys so she cannot see them with these men. She  will get very aggressive and threatening Thoughts please ????

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Pook075]

Hi Roper, that sounds like a really tough situation and I really feel for you.  My BPD daughter is 26 and she's done a pretty good job of accepting her illness and making productive steps.  It's still super tough for her and I am so thankful that she doesn't have children.

Question- why would you have to tell your daughter anything in regards to the kids?  If dad has primary custody and your daughter only gets visitations, that's something that the dad will have to handle through the courts.  Even though you see the kids on the weekend, why would you have to be directly involved with making rules, etc?

[Roper]

Hi,
Whilst the boys father will set the rules over access I do expect that we will become involved as our daughter is in denial about how  serious this episode was both in terms of drug taking but also reckless behaviour that put her and the children at risk.
If she could accept what happened and recognise what she needs to do to avoid  these downward spirals then I am sure the boys father would support a plan that we as a family could implement for her and the boys with the aim of her having the boys 50% of the time.
Her BPD will means she will see us as the enemy and her ex husband too and she will become very aggressive and incapable of listening. She is already playing the victim I feel when she confronts us we should be prepared to explain that she will only get well if she accepts that it is her behaviour that caused her hospitalisation and that  was risky to herself and the boys. We can explain on a positive that she can take control of her mental health  if she implements the daily wellness regime that all her therapists and family  have recommended over many years.

[Notwendy]

I understand you want your daughter to accept her diagnosis and get treatment. I wished for that too, for my BPD mother.

The denial is a part of the disorder and it is also a part of addiction. Speaking to someone may not break through this. They have to experience the natural consequences of their actions for there to be any chance of them being motivated to get help, if it were possible. For your D, if this means she loses custody of the kids, this is her consequence.

You've stated your wishes for her. The more you do this, the more angry she gets at you. The custody decision, made according to the medical evidence and her behavior is going to be settled legally, in what is determined to be in the best interest of the children.

And as much as I understand your wishes for your D to accept the treatment plan, since she doesn't at the moment, I agree with the custody decision, because at one point, I was in the situation the children were in.

There was some kind of public disturbance when I was a child. I don't remember it well. (other relatives later confirmed it happened). I don't know if my BPD mother was hospitalized or not. We kids were sent to stay with relatives for a while. When we came back - it was as if nothing happened. Nobody said a word about it. My parents remained married. My father was able to smooth things over for my mother. Her behaviors were kept secret, but that didn't mean they didn't happen.

Even decades later when she was sent to rehab, she didn't accept it had anything to do with her and did not follow up with treatment.

I think children need to know their parents but if a mother is so impaired that the children's well being is impacted, I think supervised visits are the safest situation, with custody being granted to a reliable parent or other family member. I am not a lawyer or judge, this is what I would wish for a child in this situation and this is what I did with my own children. They did get to know their grandmother and spend time with my parents- but I would not ever leave a child alone with her. Someone was always with them.

There doesn't have to be overt abuse for my reasoning. It's the distorted thinking and relationships that are also not in the best interest of children.

It was always our wish for my mother that she'd understand that she had BPD and accepted treatment. All of us wanted this for her- not just because it impacted the people who cared about her- but that it impacted her - probably the most.

I hope for your daughter's sake that she also accepts treatment. But until- and if - she does, it may not be the best for the children for her to have custody at this time. I don't say this to be cruel to her. If this happens, I hope this becomes a motivator for her to get treatment.

It sounds like you will have contact with the kids through the father.

[Scarlet75]

You've stated your wishes for her. The more you do this, the more angry she gets at you.

This is very insightful, I hope OP is able to accept the information. It's certainly heartbreaking when your grandchildren are impacted, and extremely difficult to sit back and take no action.

[CC43]

Hi Roper,

I can relate to your situation.  I have an undiagnosed NPD in my life with children of middle school age.  He had a violent past, and a restraining order was in place for a time, but he resumed partial custody of his kids.  Over time, his abuse of substances and his general health deteriorated, and courts and CPS were slow to react to protect the children.  He is extremely intelligent, a consummate liar, and he almost always seems able to convince officials that he is perfectly fine; he has a million and one excuses for not living up to the parenting plan in place.  As the living conditions in his home deteriorated, he always managed to find a way to defer CPS visits, and pay to get the place cleaned up before an in-person inspection, complete with flowers in a vase on the table (something inconceivable for him to do himself).  He had multiple driving incidents and accidents, some with the children in the car, but even that wasn't enough to induce action from the courts.  He remained unemployed and could have devoted all his time to caring for his home and his kids, but he did nothing of the sort.  He had a large file of issues and interventions with police and emergency staff.  He missed a couple of court dates, giving health issues as an excuse.  He eventually endured a couple of extended stays in the hospital, induced by long-term alcoholism and untreated diabetes, which he claims made it impossible for him to comply with the parenting plan and re-scheduled court dates.  Ultimately the courts found him in contempt and ruled that he wasn't fit to have the children unless supervised.  He's not allowed to drive them anymore.

In the case I describe, the kids are old enough to know that something's not right with their dad.  I think the most charitable way of putting things is to say something like, Your dad loves you, but he's too sick right now to show you.  He's in pain, and because of that, he's not always thinking straight.  He's with doctors now, trying to get better.  I think something like that helps validate what the kids probably already know, without disparaging their parent and without placing any blame on the kids, who might wonder why their parent doesn't seem to love them or act like a normal parent.  Then you can hope that your son-in-law and and the courts can work out some reasonable, safe visitation schedule.  That might involve supervision with a trusted adult (a trusted relative?), center-based supervision, ensuring that the parent remains drug-free during visitation or other protective measures.  Maybe the way for your daughter to see her kids is by having you present to supervise.  But I think in your case, your son-in-law needs to take the lead.

Just my two cents.