Difficult times ahead

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It's been a while since I've posted here. The kids are 17 & 19 now -- so, one adult child, and soon to have another adult child next year.
Both have been pulling away somewhat for the last 6 months or so, and I've been working with my therapist to understand how much is normal and how much is not.
SD17 was supposed to spend the weekend with us (& usually SD19 comes along). H was going to be out of town Saturday so he suggested getting together Sunday. Both kids verbally agreed.
On Sunday just SD19 came over in the afternoon. She and H started to have a conversation, so I made myself scarce. H found me later and said SD19 had left. Apparently she came to tell him she would not be coming over any more.
She says that things he has posted online (that she had to dig back a couple years to find, on a platform she does not have) made her feel unsafe at our house. She wants him to agree that a choice she is making is good (beyond just agreeing that she has the right to make the choice, or not stopping her from making the choice). She said she isn't "cutting him off" but does see him as embodying everything she does not like about the world today. The two of them have very different politics, beliefs, worldviews, etc.
She is not ok with "agreeing to disagree". She also has a lot of hurts from childhood.
She said she'd come over Friday to get her stuff and give H a chance to say anything he may have thought of in the meantime.
H is hurt and feels defensive and like she's out of line. He also is trying to understand if there is anything valid in her statements that is his responsibility.
I'm pretty checked out and emotionally overwhelmed. H and I met with my T yesterday and it was ok but mostly she affirmed that this is difficult. She recommended that H try to get the defensiveness out of his system now, and approach SD19 on Friday with more softness, finding areas where he can affirm her experience.
I mostly just want to hide from this, to be honest. It is really painful and it is emotionally a lot to try to support H in what feels like a slow motion death of the relationship. I know rationally that this is not necessarily forever, and it may be part of a natural pulling away (just low skill), but I fear she is unreachable right now.

[kells76]

It's been a while since I've posted here. The kids are 17 & 19 now -- so, one adult child, and soon to have another adult child next year.
Both have been pulling away somewhat for the last 6 months or so, and I've been working with my therapist to understand how much is normal and how much is not.
SD17 was supposed to spend the weekend with us (& usually SD19 comes along). H was going to be out of town Saturday so he suggested getting together Sunday. Both kids verbally agreed.
On Sunday just SD19 came over in the afternoon. She and H started to have a conversation, so I made myself scarce. H found me later and said SD19 had left. Apparently she came to tell him she would not be coming over any more.
She says that things he has posted online (that she had to dig back a couple years to find, on a platform she does not have) made her feel unsafe at our house. She wants him to agree that a choice she is making is good (beyond just agreeing that she has the right to make the choice, or not stopping her from making the choice). She said she isn't "cutting him off" but does see him as embodying everything she does not like about the world today. The two of them have very different politics, beliefs, worldviews, etc.
She is not ok with "agreeing to disagree". She also has a lot of hurts from childhood.
She said she'd come over Friday to get her stuff and give H a chance to say anything he may have thought of in the meantime.
H is hurt and feels defensive and like she's out of line. He also is trying to understand if there is anything valid in her statements that is his responsibility.
I'm pretty checked out and emotionally overwhelmed. H and I met with my T yesterday and it was ok but mostly she affirmed that this is difficult. She recommended that H try to get the defensiveness out of his system now, and approach SD19 on Friday with more softness, finding areas where he can affirm her experience.
I mostly just want to hide from this, to be honest. It is really painful and it is emotionally a lot to try to support H in what feels like a slow motion death of the relationship. I know rationally that this is not necessarily forever, and it may be part of a natural pulling away (just low skill), but I fear she is unreachable right now.

[ForeverDad]

Wow, so sorry to hear this latest discord.  There have been back-and-forths like this over the years.  The girls' worlds seem to morph from here to there and back in much of their lives.  That instability reflects the contrasts between a stable home and an ever-changing dysfunctional one.  And she can't quite see that - at least for very long - due to all that push pull.

I suspect - setting aside for now how and why she came across these old posts - that there is more to how she was influenced, possibly her biomom and whoever else is in that sphere of influence?

[Pook075]

That really stinks Kells, I'm sorry to hear about it as well.  This generation, more than any other, loves to focus on "those people" and they believe that if you don't think exactly like I do, then we're enemies in this world.  It's heartbreaking and it's at the center of all the unrest in the US.

I didn't speak to my younger daughter (the non-BPD kid) for about a year after my ex-wife and I split because there was so much blame and anger.  It broke my heart more than the actual breakup.  But over time, I realized something and reminded myself daily that, "This is for right now, it's not for forever."

Today, my kid and I are closer than ever.  She realizes the manipulation by her mom that took place and figured out quite a few lies that she had to deal with.  This broke my heart too, that her mom could put her in that position.  And I encouraged her to forgive her mom, even though all the lies cost me so much a few years back.

For you, this feels like one of those situations.  You're dealing with an angry young adult who feels betrayed.  However, this is for right now, not for forever.  Fight anger with love.  Fight blame with love.  Fight lies with love.  And eventually, things will come around to where you guys want them to be.

I hope that helps.

[Notwendy]

I am so sorry to hear this. You and your H have been a source of stability and reason in your childrens' world. SD 19 is too young to appreciate it at the moment. She hasn't had much experience as an adult in the world yet.

I have experienced some "pulling away" of older teens and it is distressing and then later, the kids have come around with a new sense of maturity. They don't know "who they are yet" but they know they are autonomous, and not the same as their parents and so sometimes they push away. It may be that enmeshment and poor boundaries with her mother makes it hard for her to see things differently from her than she does with her father.

I think it takes an emotionally mature parent to navigate the teen years. Teens still need boundaries about unsafe behaviors, and an emotionally safe parent to "push" at to obtain autonomy. Ironically, your SD had this discussion with your H because she felt safe enough to do it. If she didn't feel emotionally safe, she'd have just pulled away.

However, the kids didn't "pull away" to the extent of not feeling safe due to different politics and seeing online posts. For this, I blame current times- not to discuss politics here- but to speak of divisions and social media which I think promotes them. This is a very different climate from when I was a teen and when my kids were. Although I was born after the "hippy" generation- teen rebellions and having political differences from the "older generation" then were demonstrated by long hair, ratty jeans, and our own genre of music, and that set the stage for how to differentiate from parents for some time.

IMHO, social media, and our political divisions has set a different climate now. In addition, there's been the influence of a BPD parent, poor boundaries, likely some enmeshment. I think you and your H can see the naivety of SD's decision, albeit it does hurt.

My thoughts on what to do is to keep being emotionally safe parents. Just as if your SD was a pwBPD- (she may not be, but sometimes teens act like it) -use the tools on this board to be less emotionally reactive. If you promised her support in pursuing college or independence- don't change your promise. It's possible that SD 19 sometimes reminds your H of her mother and this causes a reaction for him. I think this is inevitable- kids are a product of both parents but they are their own individuals.

I say this because, if my father was feeling stressed, and I said something he didn't like, he'd react as if I was acting like my mother. This was very difficult to hear because, I am not like her in personality but kids pick up similar tones of voice as parents and this may be how he heard it.

I think the Friday discussion is a crucial situation for how to relate to SD. I agree with the T who said to your H- do not be defensive and don't act on his hurt feelings. Look at the adults in SD's life- you and your H are the only stable influence and SD needs for H to be that emotionally stable parent now. He needs to take care of his own hurt feelings- and not react to her from that.

What I think SD needs from him is unconditional love- for her, even if they disagree on politics and world view. She's still too young to have a mature perspective. She needs to feel she's been heard. Let her talk, even if it's hard to hear. Then, rather than to counteract with his opinion, reassure her that he loves her and that she is welcome to contact him, visit, at any time. If she says hurtful things, it's because she feels hurt. She needs him to be that stable and loving parent back to her, to reassure her she's loved and validate her feelings, (without having to agree with her reasons or opinions) and not JADE.

This will show her a different situation than what she is experiencing with her BPD mother. For me, it felt that love in my family was conditional on going along with BPD mother's feelings and walking on eggshells. I did some typical teen "rebellion" behaviors  but I didn't dare rock to boat too much at home. If I had said something like what SD said to her father, I'd have faced rejection. I was used to my BPD mother's reactions but I still looked to my father for his love and approval, even as an adult. Rejection hurts no matter what the age a person is and it can hurt even more when it's from the stable parent. Likely you and your H feel this rejection but it's coming from a young, naive, teen who has not had stability from one parent- and she needs that stability and unconditional love.

[CC43]

Hi there,

This sounds so much like what happened in my household with young adult girls. Because they had two parental households, they would go back and forth between them, typically to “punish” an offending parent with their absence. Any time they didn’t get what they wanted, they would flee to the other household. This was possible because they had their own cars.

At least what you describe sounded like a semi-civil conversation. Typically my adult stepdaughters would flee the house after an altercation.

I know it’s hard to deal with feelings of disappointment, and feeling wronged, and taking their criticisms personally. Yet I suspect this development has nothing at all to do with you. It sounds to me like she dug up an ancient grievance as an excuse, to deflect attention from what’s really going on. It sounds like a typical BPD tactic to blame someone else for her woes and try to punish using estrangement. I’ve seen this play out hundreds of times in my house, even as we speak. My guess is that she’ll be back when she needs something. My other guess is that you’ll find out what’s really going on sometime later. Maybe she’s failing in school and doesn’t want you to know. Maybe something’s going on with a boyfriend. Maybe she lost a bestie. I find that many times, what’s bugging her is reflected in her accusations about her parents.

My advice would be to sit tight. Don’t run after her. Dont beg her to resume communication. Don’t apologize for things you didn’t do. Just wait patiently for her to reach out again. That way, you respect her wishes to be left alone, and she’ll reach out again when she’s ready. I view these periods as a time out.

[Notwendy]

One book (not about BPD) that helped me to understand the teen years is this one. 

Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent's Guide to the New Teenager.

It helped me to understand the push pull pattern which is a developmental stage in a teenager, but somehat similar to the push pull pattern with a pwBPD. The difference is- the teen ager who doesn't have BPD grows out of this.

This book was more relevant to me with the younger teen years but I think a teen with a BPD parent can have "uneven" development- be parentified in some ways and yet, be younger in others. In addition, there can be learned behaviors from the BPD parent- as it's all we know so they may sometimes act as if they have BPD but don't actually have it.

My older teen years were difficult emotionally. I thought the solution to the issues at home was to go away to college and it helped but it wasn't all that needed to be worked through. I thought if I didn't behave like my BPD mother, I must be OK, and while that is a good thing- I still was dealing with some emotional consequences of the family dynamics.

Maybe your H feels some responsibility for the girls having a BPD mother but he had no idea what would happen when he married her. Maybe the girls are angry at him for the divorce. Still this is due to their ages and experiences. I could not have the perspective I have of my parents now when I was 19.

I wasn't sure who I was at that age. I had learned to people please and felt I needed to be like others to be liked. This is how we managed at home growing up- do what BPD mother wanted, and focus on her feelings. My world view was influenced by both parents. I felt different from my peers, emotionally. I made use of the student counseling center to help process what was going on.

SD 19 is influenced by her mother's world view which may also change according to what is considered OK by mother's peers. SD 19 has not had the chance to mature yet and form her own ideas. Chances are, she has not been allowed to express different ideas at her house. It's to you and your H's credit that she can at yours.

This is your chance to role model emotional regulation, tolerance- not that you agree with her opinion but that you show her that people can have different opinions and still love each other. This is a difficult thing for you to go through. As she navigates the adult world and has her own struggles, she may gain more perspective and realize the value of what you have provided for her.

[kells76]

Thank you all. It means a lot to have your support right now. (I'm writing this on the phone, not computer, so apologies if I don't reply in depth).

I think my fear is -- if this were "just" normal range differentiation, just expressed in an extreme way (i.e. SD19 feels like wanting independence, but can't articulate why, so "pins" a handy reason on those feelings), it would hurt but I could rationalize it to myself, like, Yes, she is not being very skillful or kind about differentiating, but she's doing the best she can, so I'm not afraid of a permanent rift.

She is so committed to a certain worldview, though, that leaves no room for nuance, or compassion to those not quite up to speed with you, and pre-frames difference of belief between two people as hate of the other person, that I fear it's like she's joining a cult. Except if you have a loved one joining a cult, you at least get some compassion and support socially, but our child's worldview has so much social acceptance in our area that there is nobody for us to turn to -- we have little to no social support for even wanting to have extended dialog with our child about these issues.

IDK -- I fear that this is bigger than "unskilled and unkind differentiation". I also fear that we will say or do something on Friday that unintentionally cements her in her belief that H is a hateful person who is unsafe to be around. (Interestingly, she has not confronted me, but also has ignored my messages over the last few days -- and that is also hard because that was the original dysfunctional family dynamic ~10 years ago when things were really bad: Dad was evil and she didn't have to see him, Mom was to be protected and was the "perfect, supportive parent", Stepdad was the hero, and kells76 was irrelevant. IDK if SD19 is back on speaking terms with Stepdad or not; if he's supportive of the worldview the he might be "painted white" again, hard to know).

I dread Friday both for myself and for H. I don't want him to be hurt again. I'd hoped we were past that time but it seems to have cycled back. I feel like I'm already preparing to grieve the loss of SD19, I just don't want there to be additional conflict and argument and blowup on top of it. I feel like I "should" make myself available Friday but honestly I don't want to be there.

It just feels so hard to believe that this is not the permanent end, given how deeply embedded and encompassing our child's worldview is, telling her that we are unsafe people.

What I wish I could say to SD19 is -- think about when I called CPS and Mom & Stepdad raged at you and blamed you, and you were desperate and almost grovelling to "fix what you ruined" and appease them. Doesn't that strike you as interesting, the double standard you have for your two parents? What if you brought a little more balance into each relationship -- what if, in your relationship with Mom, not everything was your fault, and what if, in your relationship with Dad, not everything was Dad's fault?

But Friday is probably not the right time for that.

We will try to just listen, and reiterate that we love her (which she will probably contest with "no you don't, because if you actually did, you'd listen to what I'm telling you would be loving me, which is supporting me doing X"), and say we respect that she is choosing some more space and we hope she can accept love from us no matter what. And then watch her leave.

[Pook075]

She is so committed to a certain worldview, though, that leaves no room for nuance, or compassion to those not quite up to speed with you, and pre-frames difference of belief between two people as hate of the other person, that I fear it's like she's joining a cult.

This may or may not help- my 26 year old BPD daughter is part of the LGBT community.  I love her for her regardless, even though it goes against my religious beliefs.  But as the years ticked on and she became more involved with that lifestyle, her friends would tell her that God loves LGBT and we were just reading the Bible wrong to persecute that community.

Again, I don't persecute anyone...and I'm not "against" anyone. 

This went on for a few years and our relationship fell apart several times.  My kid (whom I always loved, supported, and stood by no matter what) insisted that my religious beliefs were hateful towards LGBT.  I countered with saying she was completely ignoring my religious beliefs and it was not a topic I'd speak about ever again.

Over time, we finally got to the point where I could tell her, "This is not something we agree on and I don't want to offend you, so I'd prefer to change the topic."  Sometimes it worked, sometimes not.  But eventually she realized that I could still be dad with us disagreeing about something.

So I have three very specific boundaries for this topic:

1) I love you, but that doesn't give you a free pass to attack my beliefs.
2) If you don't attack my beliefs, I won't attack yours.  We don't have to talk about it at all.
3) If you insist on arguing about it, I'll share my opinion and walk away.

In all, it took about three years for us to reach this point and my BPD daughter was older than your SD at the time (around 23ish).  The message I had to push over and over again was that I loved my kid and we don't have to discuss anything we strongly disagree about.

I think it's the same as the rest of the world as well.  When you face "those people", you change the blind hatred by showing love and empathy.  That's the secret sauce.

[Notwendy]

Is this over politics?

In your other posts there was some discussion of gender identity, sexuality?- is this her situation? Is she moving somewhere?

Is this over a specific incident that she's concerned about?

Is this due to her BPD mother's influence? It doesn't seem fair that a pwBPD has the power to split a family but mine did. She perceived people as being "on her side" or "not her side" and if she felt someone was not on her side, you were out of her circle. It did feel cult-like- her following of people would align with her according to her own world view. BPD mother did say negative things about the "other" person she was angry with which influenced how the people in her circle perceived them.

I think it's inevitable that a child who grew up partly with this world view would be influenced by it. I wonder how much SD has been enlisted as confidant to her BPD mother. It took me a long time to realize that what my BPD mother said to me about other people may not be true. (maybe what she felt was true in the moment).

This happened to me- and I did grieve the loss. It does hurt. Several years later it seems we are trying to repair that rift in the family and while BPD mother's extended family is far more functional and without BPD as far as I can tell- the dynamics with some of them seem odd. Family dynamics have an influence on others- even if they don't have BPD.

SD herself may feel she needs a blow up on Friday to justify her decision. So, perhaps she may try to instigate one. I think she's aware of where you and your H stand in your beliefs so stating them may only feed into this "they are anti" - (whatever she thinks you are). It may be better to mostly listen and let her have her say, even if she says critical things about your beliefs. A discussion isn't going to change her mind in the moment. You can say things like "I understand you feel this way" which doesn't imply you agree with it. She may say some hurtful things to justify her position- keep in mind, she has possibly learned some BPD behaviors.

As to making yourself available Friday and not wanting to be there- I think the optics would be if you weren't there, that you were cutting contact with her or not communcating with her. By not being there- she may "fill in the gap" with ideas that you don't care. It's difficult but I think staying present and not reacting to what she says emotionally will show her that you do care.

This is a really difficult situation.

[PeteWitsend]

Is this over politics?

In your other posts there was some discussion of gender identity, sexuality?- is this her situation? Is she moving somewhere?

Is this over a specific incident that she's concerned about?

Is this due to her BPD mother's influence? ...

I was wondering about those things too.  I guess unless SD confesses where this is coming from, it's impossible to know the last thing for sure, but maybe that's not the most important thing to consider right now, when emotions appear to be bubbling over.  But it would be tactful to maybe address it at some point. 

I don't know what your H's posts online were about, but if they were political in nature, it might be helpful to note to all concerned that the whole point of national political media coverage IS TO DIVIDE US, and if you really consider yourself a rational, thinking, human being, then you need to ensure that doesn't happen.  I don't know anyone who would be okay admitting they are not a rational human being.  So a statement like "We can discuss viewpoints, but if politics is dividing us, let's put that conversation on hold for now." would help.  Now, if he posted things online that are objectively awful, or hate speech or something, he might have some explaining to do to her first, to address that. 

I had to have this conversation with a sibling of mine who is not doing well, and whenever a shocking news story hits the wires (which is often with the current presidential administration...) I have to talk them down from blowing up family chats and otherwise picking fights with uncles, aunts, grandpas, etc. for this very reason. 

But I note that when things were going better for this person, they were not nearly as combative with family.  So maybe consider that your SD has some other stressors in her life, and this issue with your H may just be misplaced frustration.  Although, regardless, I would wager that the misplaced frustration stems from something her BPD mother or step father did or said. 

My parents are divorced (they divorced when I was nearly an adult), and I've gone through long periods of not speaking to my dad in response to some really selfish and tactless things he did, but one of us always reaches out again. Even though we're not really close, we're on ok terms.  Those parental/child bonds are resilient, as they should be, I suppose.  So don't assume a break is permanent, even if it's portrayed that way.   

Also, like Notwendy said, some of this is or could be just regular teenage stuff, compounded by the BPD mom and situation there, so take that into account, and if she does sheepishly back down and decide to continue seeing your H, then gracefully allow it and don't hopefully he doesn't give her any grief for it. 

Since I moved out and filed for divorce, I've been wary of BPDxw's attempts to alienate me from my D, and when she was younger this did create some issues.  To her credit, my D seems to have seen through these attempts and recognizes now that her mom is the one who has problems getting along with other people.  She seems to have "compartmentalized" the "reality" her mom lives in so that what happens there stays there, but I am always concerned about what bad habits she could be picking up. 

Anyways, if things got bad, like to the extent where D said she didn't want to see me anymore, my plan was to respect her decision, but say "I'm not happy you decided this, but you're your own person, and if that's what you want, so be it.  But know that I'm still going to reach out to you, and will always love you no matter what you decide."  And of course I'd do that, regularly text her, send her pics of our dog (or any interests we had in common), etc.

[CC43]

Hi again,

It's true that this recent development could be typical teenage angst and a drive to be more independent.  After shedding a child's persona and losing the rigid, daily structure of high school, people in their late teens might find themselves struggling to fit in an adult's world, and they experiment a little along the way.  Finding a "tribe" of like-minded folks could help them regain a sense of belonging, as well as help them forge a young adult's identity.  The tendency to rebel against "boring" or "old-fashioned" parents happens in every generation.

Yet I can't help but see some potential issues.  First off, I think that kids often model their behavior after the same-sex parent.  With a disordered mom, your stepdaughter might be picking up on some of her mom's relational habits, possibly because mom's habits seem to get her what she wants!  Maybe her mom is confrontational with others about their beliefs, and your stepdaughter is starting to mimic that.  Her mom likely has black-and-white thinking that's typical of BPD, and that style of thinking has rubbed off on her daughter.  In her house, other people might be characterized as "all good" or "all bad," which might simplify the world (because she avoids nuanced thinking), but it's also divisive.  If her mom is accusatory, blames her problems on others and cuts people out of her life for no good reason (which is likely if she has BPD), her kids could pick up on that and try it out.  If her mom is manufacturing drama to avoid responsibility, that could be something her daughter is mimicking, too.  It's hard to say if that's typical "teen" behavior, or if it could be early warning signs that your stepdaughter might be developing some BPD traits.  Maybe she's just "venting" some of her frustrations about growing up with her bio mom.  Yet it could be that the stress of living with a disordered/dysfunctional mom for so long is rubbing off, especially if your stepdaughter doesn't have good role models to show her what healthy thinking/coping tactics look like.  That's where you come in.  I think she's very lucky to have you in her life.  But if she drifts away, she might "forget" what you've taught her by example, and indulge in the impulsive, relationship-harming tactics her mom probably uses.

If your stepdaughter is otherwise doing what she's supposed to be doing--getting some college education, working and/or volunteering, socializing in an age-appropriate way, and not getting into major trouble--then I'd say, those are all really good signs.  If that's happening, then I'd say, give her the benefit of the doubt, and give her the space she says she wants.  I'm pretty sure she'll be back soon enough, because you and her dad have been great to her, even if she seems to forget that from time to time.  My advice would be not to show your stepdaughter how hurtful she was--because that might give her power and incentive to continue behaving that way.  Hard as it is, I think you should sit tight and wait to see how this plays out, and try not to take anything personally.  If you do see your stepdaughter again, you might reaffirm her love for her and the notion that you're always there for her, but you respect her beliefs/decisions and only want what's best for her.  Fair enough?

[ForeverDad]

If it's not her home life, is SD19 sharing how she's doing in college?  Grades okay?  I wonder too if her campus is having protests and near-riots (negative and emotion based) and that's surged into her daily life.  Maybe a very gentle comment that she's there to learn more skills and to consider skills and not to be sidetracked outside those goals?  Of course, logic is not necessarily the right approach.  As the others said, reassure her you'll always be there for her.  Perhaps try to keep the lines open and set up another visit/meal in a few weeks, maybe with her sister too?

[kells76]

Not in college at the moment, but she is working full time & holding down that job fine, which is good.

Also wants to move out of the country to be with her partner, plan was to do that in January but I think things are up in the air. We have no issue with her moving, and will try to support with household items.

I think the issue is that she plans to make a big decision this month that she knows H does not agree with. She may suspect that I also do not think it is wise, but for now her focus is on H.

It feels like she is trying to "reject us before we reject her"; it may be hard for her to believe that whatever we think of the choice, we love her no matter what. Or, she may not have the sense of self to be able to tolerate anything less than full excitement/approval of the decision. Worldview filter is in play here too, as her culture tells her "anyone who isn't fully on board with this, hates you and you can cut them off".

So yes, it's politics+gender+an imminent  decision. I am trying to tread carefully because while sure, the content of what's going on is important, what's also a big deal is how she is going about this, and it's hard to feel like there is no way to reach her -- she is so entrenched behind her huge defensive walls of rightness that there's no nuance, no compromise, no meeting in the middle. If she were able to say "you know, I'm doing this, and I don't need your approval or permission" I'd say "yeah, that's all true, see you next week". But it's like she doesn't have the strength to feel secure enough in her own choice! So she somehow needs external something from us that we just can't give in the exact way she wants. There's a way in which this would be easier if she could own it all by herself but again with the worldview filter that tells her that this choice requires outside participation.

[I Am Redeemed]

Not in college at the moment, but she is working full time & holding down that job fine, which is good.

Also wants to move out of the country to be with her partner, plan was to do that in January but I think things are up in the air. We have no issue with her moving, and will try to support with household items.

I think the issue is that she plans to make a big decision this month that she knows H does not agree with. She may suspect that I also do not think it is wise, but for now her focus is on H.

It feels like she is trying to "reject us before we reject her"; it may be hard for her to believe that whatever we think of the choice, we love her no matter what. Or, she may not have the sense of self to be able to tolerate anything less than full excitement/approval of the decision. Worldview filter is in play here too, as her culture tells her "anyone who isn't fully on board with this, hates you and you can cut them off".

So yes, it's politics+gender+an imminent  decision. I am trying to tread carefully because while sure, the content of what's going on is important, what's also a big deal is how she is going about this, and it's hard to feel like there is no way to reach her -- she is so entrenched behind her huge defensive walls of rightness that there's no nuance, no compromise, no meeting in the middle. If she were able to say "you know, I'm doing this, and I don't need your approval or permission" I'd say "yeah, that's all true, see you next week". But it's like she doesn't have the strength to feel secure enough in her own choice! So she somehow needs external something from us that we just can't give in the exact way she wants. There's a way in which this would be easier if she could own it all by herself but again with the worldview filter that tells her that this choice requires outside participation.

I'm sorry you're going through this, kells. I have a D18 that keeps us at a distance, though she does touch base and show up for birthdays and holidays, etc.

Do you know what the specific childhood hurts are that need resolving for her?

While the culture, political and religious/spiritual beliefs, generational influence, and the impending Decision are most likely all heavily contributing here, I think the real motivation is probably coming from a part of her that has these unresolved childhood hurts.

[kells76]

I wasn't in the conversation on Sunday but from the bit that H brought up, I think the hurts are related to not having the childhood she wanted (likely emotionally), and not feeling understood as a child. I am not sure about more -- I can speculate about a lot (being parentified by Mom) but I don't think she brought that up.
H does say he agrees, he also wishes her childhood could have been different.

[kells76]

I did remember one more thing H said -- SD19 said something about a power imbalance in their relationship, because he is the parent and she is the child. I don't know if she followed up that thought, but it seems like the conclusion would be "and so you need to approve of my choices in order for the power to be equal", but I'm not sure.

[I Am Redeemed]

I wasn't in the conversation on Sunday but from the bit that H brought up, I think the hurts are related to not having the childhood she wanted (likely emotionally), and not feeling understood as a child. I am not sure about more -- I can speculate about a lot (being parentified by Mom) but I don't think she brought that up.
H does say he agrees, he also wishes her childhood could have been different.

Does she specifically blame him for her needs not getting met the way she wanted? Feels let down, disappointed, hurt, angry, all the things?

[I Am Redeemed]

I did remember one more thing H said -- SD19 said something about a power imbalance in their relationship, because he is the parent and she is the child. I don't know if she followed up that thought, but it seems like the conclusion would be "and so you need to approve of my choices in order for the power to be equal", but I'm not sure.

That's interesting. I think there's lots to unpack in that. She's not secure enough in her adulthood status, maybe? Does she need a villain in her story and he seems to be that focus for her? Maybe she made choices that she blames on her childhood or things happened to her that she has linked to her childhood in some way.

She doesn't have the "power" to make her own choice regardless of another person's beliefs? She needs active validation/support/agreement to obtain that "power"?

I wonder where that belief could have originated.

[I Am Redeemed]

Notwendy, I'm going to get that book you mentioned.

[ForeverDad]

I get the sense that she's trying to find herself or trying to make a decision that tells herself she's found who she is and who she wants to be for her friend.

This history goes back years and years with her biomom telling her who she was and was not and it turned her inside out, up confused with down.  No wonder she's so distressed, seeing a decision time looming in her life.

We have all this empathy for her and yet the best we can do is be there for her no matter what, though the worlds views are so different.

[Notwendy]

I agree with the two of you maintaining contact. How much would depend on what she wants, if she allows you to have her contact info- and also to keep it light- occasional "thinking of you" messages, not emotional expectations.

I think SD knows that what she is proposing is not in alignment with your values. If she's setting the expectation- "agree with me or no contact" that puts you in a double bind. It's similar to BPD behavior- keep in mind that kids who have a BPD parent can learn this behavior- even if they themselves don't have BPD.  Also Karpman triangle dynamics with needing a persecutor- SD - and BPD mother as rescuer.

I think you and your H have done a lot for the girls but they may not be at a place they can realize it.

SD can make her own choices now. In your situation, you don't want to go against your values- even if you said you did, it would be inauthentic. If you don't agree- she may see you as "dangerous" but there's not much you can do to change her opinion in the moment.

Maybe fall back on "we believe people don't have to agree on everything to love each other. We love you and want the best for you".

If she says "you are dangerous to me" a reply like "I am sorry you feel this way, our hearts are open to you and you can contact us at any time".

If she asks your opinion- this may be a set up possibly to make you the wrong one. I think you can state it but as neutral as possible- not about her politics or beliefs but about her well being.

Using my imagination about what she may be proposing, my own opinion is to preserve a person's physical health and future choices.  Someone's hair style, how they dress, their prefered name/pronouns, their politics, who they are dating- none of these are permanent. They leave space for future choices.

Permanent changes would be surgical and medical interventions, or things like large tatoos,  or tatoos with names of partners, that would be hard to change later. What we want and like at 19 can be different at 30.

If someone were to ask me, although 19 is legally an adult, making a permanent decision - about anything- at age 19 that may limit one's choices later in life, my response would be to ask them to consider waiting on that. You aren't saying yes or no, just please think about waiting. This takes politics, religion, off the table. It would be about anything permanent because people's feelings and opinions can change over time.

"I support your physical well being and to preserve your future choices".

If they were to absolutely insist on their choice, at 19, they can decide that and so my respnse would be " I love you always, and understand this is your decision to make. I hope you will think about what we discussed. I am here for you if you have any questions for me".

In the long run, I think we hope people will be happy with their choices, now and in the future because we love them. Whatever your SD wants- your hope is that she's happy with it. I think it's possible to tell her this without compromising your own values.