Terrified of taking my son to meet relatives against wife's will

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My sister and her family have not met my S3 in the two years since my wife got mad at sister and refused further contact (and they have never met my S1 yet). This is unacceptable, and I am ashamed because I have let this continue for so long already.

So I have finally arranged to have dinner with my sister's family this Friday. I have not told my wife about it yet. It has taken me a long time to come up with this plan and gather the courage to go ahead with it. Now I am absolutely terrified by how this is going to play out. I should be planning for some possibilities, but I have trouble concentrating when I try to think about it.

So I write out my plan and some concerns here, in the hopes I can get some suggestions and encouragement.

I am supposed to pick up our son from daycare on Friday. I will do that, but instead of heading home as usual, we head off to a nearby restaurant. There we will have dinner with his ant, uncle and cousins. Then we will return home.

I will let my wife know about this plan in the Friday morning, after he is already in the daycare. I will offer her the chance to bring S1 and join us for the dinner.

Some points:
 - leaving from daycare instead of home gives her less changes to sabotage
 - telling her late gives her no change to try and sway our son
 - I'd love the S1 to join but right now it is more important to just do something to start fixing things

Concerns:
 - will she be stable enough to be safely left alone with S1
 - will she try to go and collect S3 herself to prevent me from doing it
 - will she come to daycare / restaurant and demand for S3 to go with her instead of me, and how can I handle it if she does
 - will she ask me to move out, and is that a thing I can safely comply with (or safely refuse, for that matter)
 - how can I handle the blowout over the weekend
 - how do I actually tell her on Fridat and not be drawn into an argument, while also treat her respectfully?
 - should I actually tell her earlier, am I being unreasonable

Oh well.

[Versant]

My sister and her family have not met my S3 in the two years since my wife got mad at sister and refused further contact (and they have never met my S1 yet). This is unacceptable, and I am ashamed because I have let this continue for so long already.

So I have finally arranged to have dinner with my sister's family this Friday. I have not told my wife about it yet. It has taken me a long time to come up with this plan and gather the courage to go ahead with it. Now I am absolutely terrified by how this is going to play out. I should be planning for some possibilities, but I have trouble concentrating when I try to think about it.

So I write out my plan and some concerns here, in the hopes I can get some suggestions and encouragement.

I am supposed to pick up our son from daycare on Friday. I will do that, but instead of heading home as usual, we head off to a nearby restaurant. There we will have dinner with his ant, uncle and cousins. Then we will return home.

I will let my wife know about this plan in the Friday morning, after he is already in the daycare. I will offer her the chance to bring S1 and join us for the dinner.

Some points:
 - leaving from daycare instead of home gives her less changes to sabotage
 - telling her late gives her no change to try and sway our son
 - I'd love the S1 to join but right now it is more important to just do something to start fixing things

Concerns:
 - will she be stable enough to be safely left alone with S1
 - will she try to go and collect S3 herself to prevent me from doing it
 - will she come to daycare / restaurant and demand for S3 to go with her instead of me, and how can I handle it if she does
 - will she ask me to move out, and is that a thing I can safely comply with (or safely refuse, for that matter)
 - how can I handle the blowout over the weekend
 - how do I actually tell her on Fridat and not be drawn into an argument, while also treat her respectfully?
 - should I actually tell her earlier, am I being unreasonable

Oh well.

[Notwendy]

This kind of strategy was common in my family growing up. While the ideal would be to be transparent in a relationship, the "playing field" wasn't even and BPD mother's reactions were scary, sometimes dangerous. We were all afraid of her.

I feel for your situation and know, your wife is going to react, one way or another.

Because of the fear of her reactions, my BPD mother had a lot of control in the family. In addition, our attempts to get around this resulted in us being sneaky, not telling her things- but these are actions that go against our own moral code. It makes sense that BPD mother would feel betrayed in these situations, any person would be, but she didn't connect our actions to her behavior that we feared.

BPD mother disliked my father's family but her control was about anyone who she felt somehow threatened by. Eventually, this also included my father's relationship with me if I stood up to her.

If this were my BPD mother, I would say there is going to be a reaction to your plan- and what she might do is unpredictable. Is she safe with a one year old? I don't know. Will she show up at daycare? Maybe. IMHO-while your plan to do this in this manner is understandable, under the circumstances, it is in a way a betrayal of her trust and she is going to react to that too, in addition to you doing something that feels threatening to her.

Your wife has banned family members from seeing you and the children. She would react to your being up front about you insisting on this. It's a question of which reaction to deal with, or to avoid altogether by complying with her- which you also feel is unacceptable.

[PeteWitsend]

There are two approaches to this conundrum:

One is to tell her earlier and address her concerns like you care, as unreasonable as they may be, in hopes that this gets the result you want with a minimum of disruption.  But of course, this risks giving her more time to potentially sabotage the event. 

The other approach is what you plan to do, and that avoids the latter concern of giving her time to plan a way to sabotage the outing, but risks a bigger blowup I think.

Does your family know about your wife's behavior and potential personality disorder?  I found that letting them know ahead of time helped, insofar as I didn't have to worry about the other peoples' reaction as much and could focus on trying to keep BPDxw calm in the moment.  Like they would know "oh, she's just doing the crazy thing he warned us about, it's not anything we did, and we can talk about this with him later when she's not around."

I tend to think the first approach is better here, although expect a blowup anyway.  At least with the first approach, it doesn't give the pwBPD a reason to feel "betrayed" or you not being up front, and could take some of the wind out of their sails, so to speak. 

[Versant]

IMHO-while your plan to do this in this manner is understandable, under the circumstances, it is in a way a betrayal of her trust and she is going to react to that too, in addition to you doing something that feels threatening to her.

I tend to think the first approach is better here, although expect a blowup anyway.  At least with the first approach, it doesn't give the pwBPD a reason to feel "betrayed" or you not being up front, and could take some of the wind out of their sails, so to speak. 

How much earlier do you think would be being up front?
My plan has me telling her ~6 hours before the event. That's not right before, but admittedly still a bit last minute.
I can still do it the previous day if I decide that's better, but not earlier than that unless I move it from Friday to a later date.

My view on this might be clouded. In my mind she will feel betrayed and trampled no matter what, and giving her more time also gives her more time to obsess and lose her mind over it - and to keep escalating to make comply with her wishes again. I see little to gain and potential for lots of madness.

The blowout will come for sure. I am basically just walking over her on this, no other way to see it. I hate to do it, but I don't see any alternatives either.

Does your family know about your wife's behavior and potential personality disorder? 

They know some of it, enough I think. I don't think they would be entirely surprised if she turned up at the restaurant to make a scene.

If this were my BPD mother, I would say there is going to be a reaction to your plan- and what she might do is unpredictable. Is she safe with a one year old? I don't know.

This bothers me a lot: If she gets unstable enough and I feel compelled to stay home to make sure the child is ok... Then she gets her way by acting crazy enough. So that's not great, but on the other hand, to just leave her with the child if she's having a panic attack or something, or even to try to take the child from her and then leave? Doesn't sound that great either.

[ForeverDad]

That you do not have any court orders regarding parenting or custody makes your situation particularly murky.  What I mean is that in multiple ways or places she could create incidents, portraying herself and the little children as victims and alleging you as a perp or ogre.  I'll cite a few instances in my own post separation ordeal, despite us having a court order in place.

I had chosen to employ a daycare center that my ex had previously used.  Due to prior conflict I had given a copy of our order to the staff.  Well, she arrived early one afternoon and tried to pick up our son about an hour early.  Their services were paid by me and it was still my parenting time so they declined to release our child before the time frame in the order.  Oops, she went too far.  They notified me that they were "withdrawing services" since they naturally didn't want conflict there.  I couldn't blame them.

Another time my ex did not arrive to pick up our child when her time was to start.  So I picked him up.  Later she demanded our child.  I replied he was already with me.  A little later she and a deputy drove up.  She demanded him but I said she didn't pick him up.  The deputy tried to be peacemaker but he didn't know the history of recurring conflict.  He wasn't about to step in, advised her to leave and and told us both to work it out with court.  (She picked him up the next day when I had taken him to daycare again when I went back to work.)

That advice rhymed with what I was told when we were first separated and had no orders yet.  I called and asked the police to accompany me to her place so I could safely see my son.  They declined, stating they would get involved only if I had a court order in hand.  I asked, what if I went anyway and she called them for "help"?  The reply, we will respond.  Since I didn't want to risk arrest, I had to wait to see my child until a few weeks later after court made an order.

In summary, since you are not separated and don't have a family/domestic court order, the police will likely view any conflict as married with both parents have equal but undefined parenting rights.  (The officers' task is merely to defuse the immediate conflict, nothing more.)  They may urge the parents to work it out in court... or they may decide to arrest one or both parents to "defuse" the incident.  Be forewarned that most police have standing policy that if one parent is removed then, unless otherwise indicated, it is the male parent who faces that penalty.

[zachira]

It is understandable you have concerns what your wife might do when she finds out you are planning to get together with your family. Would it possibly make sense to call your wife after you have picked your son up and say you will be late in coming home, will be taking him out to eat, without telling her what restaurant you are going to or that you will be getting together with your family? My guess is any advance notice your wife has will be used to sabotage your time with your family. She can't sabotage an event she does not know about. It seems she is going to act badly no matter what you do, though you might limit how upset she gets by limiting how much you tell her.

[PeteWitsend]

How much earlier do you think would be being up front?
My plan has me telling her ~6 hours before the event. That's not right before, but admittedly still a bit last minute.
I can still do it the previous day if I decide that's better, but not earlier than that unless I move it from Friday to a later date.

My view on this might be clouded. In my mind she will feel betrayed and trampled no matter what, and giving her more time also gives her more time to obsess and lose her mind over it - and to keep escalating to make comply with her wishes again. I see little to gain and potential for lots of madness.

The blowout will come for sure. I am basically just walking over her on this, no other way to see it. I hate to do it, but I don't see any alternatives either.

...

I suppose the objective way to consider how early is early enough would be to tell her about your plans before you make them.  Of course, in order to keep her from completely sidetracking your plans, your mind, keep a mental "line in the sand" where you won't concede further and will tell her at some point that you're disappointed she's not being cooperative, and you're just going to plan it without her then.  At least that puts her on notice so she can't complaint you've blindsided her.  And don't allow a lot of delaying tactics "Okay, you can see them, but not this month, because reasons"... don't go along with that.  Call it out, and keep going in circles until she relents.

I might say something like "It is simply not fair that you won't allow my family to see our kids.  I can't agree to this any longer.  I want to plan a visit with them.  It doesn't need to be long, and it doesn't have to be every month, but dinner is enough.  You can either plan it with me, or I will make the plans.  You don't have to come if you don't want to, but I hope you do, as it's important for you to be there as my wife." (you might have to practice saying that so it doesn't come off as ridiculous)

Include a lot of conciliatory phrases so it doesn't come off as an ultimatum.  "I love you, and this is important to me" and "I understand your concerns about [insert reference to whatever BS thing she's making up in order to justify alienating you from your family] and I love you and want to do the right thing for you, but I need to see my family sometimes and I want to work this out"  Stuff like that. 

I had a hard time being patient enough to do that, in the face of all the hypocrisy and manipulative nonsense BPDxw was displaying in order to come up with reasons why my mom couldn't visit, couldn't see our daughter, etc., even though near the end of the marriage, her mom was living with us full time.  I guess that's why I'm divorced...

[Notwendy]

Here is what I learned with these situations. If any plan had an aspect that depended on my BPD mother- this is a possible way for her to sabotage it.

The loophole in this is that for you to take the older child, your wife needs to keep the younger one. This is the loophole for sabotage.

Imagining this were my BPD mother- there'd be a reaction, and a part of that would involve the younger one. It would be a crisis situation.

She would be too out of control to watch the baby, or she'd have an issue where she couldn't - such as not feeling well.

The reaction would involve a need of hers that takes priority over the dinner- such as you needing to take care of her.

My BPD mother got her way in all these situations through some sort of crisis at the time.

If we wanted to do something, whether or not we decided to inform her sooner or later in the plan- all the aspects had to be already covered with no connection to her at all. No need for her to have any part in it. That's the part she could sabotage.

In your situation, it's her watching the baby. Even though it's more complicated to take both kids to dinner, if your sister and her family are there- that's enough adults to handle both kids. She'd  love having the baby there too.

Much harder to pull off if she comes up with something she needs you for, to take priority over the dinner plans.

[CC43]

Hi there,

If your wife is like a pwBPD behaviors who I know, it won't matter one bit if you tell her your plans beforehand--she'll still get angry, because her position is that the kids are not to see your relatives.  This prohibition could be because your wife does not want your attention divided, she dislikes your relatives, she wants control, she wants to isolate you, she feels left out/abandoned, and/or she's just plain mean and vindictive.  My guess is, there is no way, no advance warning or magic set of words that would get her to agree to a visit, no matter how quick the visit was, no matter if it would make you and your kid happy, no matter if it would give your wife a break and some me-time.  Does that sound about right?

I also agree with Notwendy, that if any part of your plan depends on cooperation from your wife, it is highly likely that she will sabotage the visit.  Why?  Because she's punishing you for "disobeying" her.  Like Notwendy, I'm also wondering why you don't bring both kids with you.  I know it would be more challenging, but if I were in your shoes, I'd take both of them. 

Having said all that, the sad reality is that she's going to get mad if you do this, no matter how you approach it, no matter how you plea your case and ask her to be reasonable.  I think you know by now that your wife is not reasonable, she's emotional.  But at some point, you might have to decide if remaining close to your family is worth her rage.  This depends on your values.  In my mind, staying close with immediate family is a priority, and I make a point to visit with family, even if it puts my loved one in a rage.  There will be rage NO MATTER WHAT OR HOW I make the visit--even if it's only one shared meal, plus commute time.  So my approach is, just let her have the rage, and give her space to be angry.  I think, deep down she knows she's being totally unreasonable, which is why she uses  convoluted logic to prohibit you from seeing your family, and it will all blow over eventually.  You might ask her, "Would you accept what you're of asking me, to never let our kids visit with your family?"  See what she says.  Alas, with BPD, there are all sorts of double standards, i.e. rules for thee and not for me. 

[PeteWitsend]

...

If we wanted to do something, whether or not we decided to inform her sooner or later in the plan- all the aspects had to be already covered with no connection to her at all. No need for her to have any part in it. That's the part she could sabotage.

...

This is key.  If you can get her out of the equation - in any situation not just this one - then you have less to worry about.  She could still show up and make a scene, perhaps, but maybe you could make that harder for her, like by going farther away to dinner.  At some point, pwBPD's laziness overcomes their vindictiveness, and you might be able to enjoy a relatively pleasant dinner. 

Be creative.  Does she like going to the spa?  Get her like a massage/facial package deal that evening, and say "don't worry, I'll take care of the kids.  You need a break, because I know you work so hard as a mom and wife."  (this doesn't need to be true.)

[zachira]

It would be ideal if you could arrange to see your family when you are caring for both children and your wife is busy doing something else. So much easier if you do not have to disclose to her that you have seen your family and your children probably would not tell her as they are very young. Any kind of conversation about seeing your family is going to lead to her acting terribly and the emotional meltdowns are hard on young children as they could think something is wrong with them because of how their mother is behaving.

[Notwendy]

Sometimes my BPD mother would go to a nearby beauty salon/spa that she liked. That gave Dad some time to himself.

It was important for my mother to feel people were paying attention to her. If Dad needed to get something done in the house, without distraction, the beauty spa was an option.

Later, in her elder years, we needed to move BPD mother to her assisted living and get her house cleared for sale. This whole effort was for her. The house needed to be sold and whatever profit was gained from it was to be put in her bank account. Relatives came to help me do the job.

But even though BPD mother was going to be the beneficiary of this effort- this wasn't visible to her so she didn't perceive it. We promised to meet her later for dinner and she agreed to meet us later,  but to her, being in her room at the assisted living while her family was doing something together was not going to work. So in the middle of moving she decides she's going to come to the house. She was visiting and chatting and nobody was able to get the job done. So some of her family went to the kitchen with her to have coffee, while I was able to pack things up. Their attention was focused on her while I and a few others were able to focus in the job at hand.

Mentioning this to add another consideration to the leaving your wife alone with the baby while you are paying attention to your sister, having a nice restaurant meal without her could be problematic. She may need to have some situation where attention is on her and she's not missing out. While my BPD mother was able bodied for most of her elder years and didn't need a caretaker in the physical sense, her emotional needs were greater- even in her younger years. It was similar to a young child who, if parents are on the phone or paying attention to something/someone else, might act up to get attention unless something is planned for them to do too.

If this plan doesn't work out, consider an alternative where your wife is getting attention and feeling special. The spa day is a great idea if she likes that, an evening out with her girlfriends. Rather than make it something you want to do without her- make it something special for her- "I'll watch the kids while you get a much deserved break" is more appealing.

[Notwendy]

Emotional meltdowns are hard on young children as they could think something is wrong with them because of how their mother is behaving.

I agree and did believe I was the reason for my BPD mother's issues. In my teen years she blamed me for them. I actually believed that when I went away to college, the issues between my parents would be resolved and they'd be happier.

This of course wasn't true but kids think what they think. It was later when a sibling confirmed that the issues didn't change when I went to college that I knew they didn't.

But this doesn't mean walking on eggshells and not having boundaries to avoid the kids seeing the meltowns is the correct thing to do. Kids learn from their parents' behavior. Both parents are role models. My father, being the more stable one was the example I followed but he was also her enabler and those were the behaviors I perceived as normal but later had to work on. 

What you want to role model is that people are allowed to have boundaries and allowed to say no. We saw the meltdowns regardless. So trying to prevent them by walking on eggshells doesn't do that entirely.

[ForeverDad]

It is what it is.  I write that in the sense that no matter how gently and politely you dance around the issue, your spouse is denying you your parental authority.  You are Father as much as she is Mother.

Sadly, she's not respecting you as a person or father.  If your relatives were criminals or child abusers, she would have basis to step in as Mama Bear to protect the children.  But for her to unilaterally castigate one of your relatives on the basis of a personal disagreement years ago is no basis to obstruct the children from visits - with either you or she supervising - with the relatives.

Yet that scenario - using the kids as leverage and weapons for a parent's perceptions and grudges - is all too common with BPD spouses.

Considering that this is the Divorcing board, it is obvious you realize that could be in your future.  You - and we too - wish it weren't but we've seen other situations like yours.  When this sort of discord and unreasonable perceptions common to Borderline PD traits becomes persistent over time it may very well be just a matter of time before some incident occurs that precipitates the sudden end to the marriage.  Are you sufficiently prepared, especially legally, should that occur?

As I understand the legal system, no long-time court order will block you or the children from contact with either parent's relatives unless they are criminals or considered child abusers.  So if/when you do divorce no order should restrict you from allowing your children to have contact with your relatives during your parenting time just on her say so.  However, you're still together at this time and so that is a consideration only in case your future heads that way.

So be very concerned and prepared to legally protect yourself since you may get "framed for mischief".  Many here had that happen.  My ex tried that too, making numerous unsubstantiated allegations about me, particularly leaning toward child endangerment and child abuse.  Nothing came of them eventually but all the legal chaos that caused even gave my own lawyer pause and look at me sideways in the early days.  And as a female and a mother, the court gave her default custody and parenting in the initial temp orders.  I had two temp orders, one for the separation and one for the divorce.