HRT impact on BPD and long time since I posted here...

[campbembpd]

Hi everyone,

It’s been a while since I last posted. I’ve continued reading here but haven’t had the bandwidth to write. A lot has happened, and I’m hoping to get some support, perspective, and grounding as I figure out next steps. A lot of ups and a lot of downs. A lot of self help books and therapy continues. Progress, not perfection

Some Major Events:

1. A significant crisis—72-hour psychiatric hold
In July my wife had an episode where she became highly dysregulated and made explicit suicidal threats. I had no choice but to call for help, and she was placed on a 72-hour psych hold. I surprised myself that I was able to do it. She was mad/sad/mixed about it. Her family supported me and agreed I had no choice. No follow up therapy or diagnosis came of it though but looking back on it she says now it was a wake up call.

The whole incident started after our 2nd couples therapy session with a therapist I found who specialized in BPD and emotional regulation. She was expensive and didn't take insurance but I was willing to give it a shot. I really liked her and my wife said she did as well. The therapist saw my wife dysregulated in session. She said we need to suspend couples therapy until my wife gets individual therapy and recommended her trying DBT. We only saw the therapist one more time. This was the 2nd therapist that outright said we couldn't do any couples therapy until my wife received individual. I've told my wife since that I won't return to couples therapy again until she gets her own. After that 2nd sessions my wife engaged me in a multi-hour, circular conversation, expressing intense distress about what I shared in therapy and other topics. Despite my efforts to stay calm and redirect the conversation to future sessions, she cycled through a series of grievances, interrogations, and accusations. It just continued the next day - she claimed I wasn’t showing enough love or support and said my involvement in CODA was pulling me away from her. She insisted I give it up, blaming it for the changes and how I set boundaries. Told me to only go to church for guidance and these other groups are toxic. It continued the next morning telling me hateful things, threatening to throw expensive items of mine in the pool and that's when she started saying she wanted to die, prayed God would take her on the way to work. She ended up going to work and I made sure she got there but early afternoon she was sending me messages that she wanted to kill herself. I was able to reach our therapist and she said I needed to call the police. I did and they reviewed the messages and determined she should be held in a psych facility.


2. Some behavioral shift after she stopped HRT (hormone replacement therapy)
I've been dealing with these extreme behaviors for the past 8-10 years, maybe more. This year things seemed to be escalating and getting crazier then ever. I mean I felt like there were times my wife was completely unhinged and psychotic was the only word that came to mind. Serious threats, following me around when I try to take space. Grabbing me or my things to prevent me from leaving the house. Over the past couple of months, I noticed a reduction in intensity. She seems better able to handle some situations. Not quite as sensitive. I mean the core is still there but my daughter and I both have noticed my wife is more stable emotionally. My wife was the one who actually came to me to say how different she's been feeling, how level and just is able to handle issues better then before. She says she looks back at how she was acting and said it wasn't acceptable and herself has used the word psychosis to describe her state. We came to the conclusion that part of the additional intensity this year was due to a double dose of her HRT treatment in January (pellet injections). She was previously receiving HRT every 3-4 months but because they messed up and she got a 2nd dose she didn't get another one (and still hasn't almost 12 months later).

Things are not perfect by any means but we (my daughter and I) have been able to settle our nervous systems somewhat. There are much fewer upsets and they're over more quickly and haven't gotten as extreme.

the past 8-10 years are just following my wife's hysterectomy. She's had a few different HRT treatments but ever since then it for sure when things got worse, and unhinged.

Where Things Stand Now

Despite some calmer months, we’re now at a crossroads:
My wife has recently decided to resume HRT—this time at a lower dose. She believes it will help with energy, libido, and physical well-being. I’m apprehensive because now looking back it's clear how HRT treatment would result in an uptick of dysregulated behavior. And she decided to do this on Dec 15 so right about christmas is when she'll have her first hormone spike I wager...

I’ve been doing my own work—therapy, journaling, Al-Anon/CoDA principles, reading Pete Walker - found out I really have some deeper CPTSD issues and have a terrible fawn 4F response, inner-child work, etc.—and I’ve noticed a huge shift in how much I’m able to detach from the chaos. But the core patterns in the relationship are still very much present.

Why I'm Posting Now

Financially things are not in a complete free fall but we're still in a terrible, financially unsecure place. $40k in high interest debt and zero savings. I've been able to stave off going further into the whole and at least staying level but that isn't sustainable. I sat with her a few weeks ago to show her my account (I have a personal account and we share a joint account). I wanted to be open and transparent. I was keeping my personal account private from her for a while because she spends everything to zero every single month. and it was how I initially was able to stop spending everything - I kept enough money in my account to cover expenses as they came up. She's been keeping her personal account private from me and going into next year I'm not going to be okay with the status quo. I put 95% of my income into everything and she puts maybe 30-40% of hers. Somehow she's always out of money but I know approx. what she earns and the household bills she pays. Based on that she blows through $3k-$4k every month. But when I spoke to her it was all about me being open and transparent with her.

I've used my therapist and ChatGPT to help me come up with a dialogue and approach to how to broach the topic of finance and having transparency, and a more fair and balanced approach to us supporting the household with prioritizing savings, debt and once we're in a stable place then start saving for travel/goals.

I was going to wait until after xmas but once I found out she was getting her HRT it couldn't wait. I NEED to do it before she gets that treatment, there's a small chance she'll be more open to discussions in her current state but the most likely end result is she'll dysregulate, call me controlling and refuse.

I want transparency and us to see each others finances and accounts. I want us both to review each others spending so we can both have trust and look at patters for both of us and determine how to plan better. My therapist, other support avenues and chatgpt all assure me I'm asking for very reasonable things in a marriage. And in fact her hiding her money and spending amounts to financial infidelity if not financial abuse. I'm expected to carry the weight while she continues to plan personal vacations and spend basically until her balance is zero.

I don't have high expectations and am bracing for a very difficult conversation and fallout afterwards. I want to be direct with expectations but be fair. I can only control myself so if she doesn't cooperate with sharing accounts or making changes (ultimately setting limits on her personal spending and contributing more to savings and debt payoff) then I have a backup plan which is to separate our finances. It will not be pretty for her. It will mean stopping payment for anything of hers, removing myself off our LLC and we'd have to file individually after this year which means we would both pay higher taxes, I would reduce how much I spend on eating out to 1/4 of what we spend now which means I might pay for once a month. She would be responsible for her own gas, tolls, apple purchases, and everything. It won't be pretty but I would be able to start making a dent. Of course I don't know how long that would last or be sustainable. It already doesn't feel like much of a marriage some time. I'm already resentful about the imbalance. It's just a step I need to take and gives me more information. Perhaps if I actually make it uncomfortable and stick with my boundaries consistently she may step up. Not holding my breath but trying to do things differently.

[ForeverDad]

Separating your finances may be the next step, but is it enough from a legal standpoint?  Are your credit cards and other loan/mortgage accounts all separate, not joint?  From here it's hard remotely to know whether that would be enough to separate you legally from her spending habits.  Technically, divorce might sever most financial obligations but are you considering that option?

[Notwendy]

I’m not a lawyer but I think how credit card debt is managed depends on if one is in a community property state or not. Separating finances in a marriage may be worth consulting an attorney about.

My BPD mother’s spending was an issue in her marriage and later in her elder years.  Speaking to her rationally didn’t work - other family members tried too. It was difficult to understand but I think it must have been emotionally driven. While it makes sense for you to try to speak to her first-it may be that the separate finances are the way to protect some savings but it may depend on the laws in your state.

[campbembpd]

There is only so much I can do. I can't 'force' her to do anything financially. I can't make her contribute more.

My next steps are to:

1. Have the conversation stating what I need. i.e. mutual transparency, determining a more fair and balanced approach to supporting the household, saving and paying down debt. (either contribute proportionally based on income or determine an amount for us each to keep for personal no questions asked spending and have the rest go towards bills, savings or debts). We have mutual accountability to do that, visibility and access to each others income and spending and ensuring money is going where we agree to. Part of this is for her to put 20% of her LLC income towards taxes. She hasn't saved in the past and she's paying of a $5k tax bill from last year because of it.

2. Based on her response there will be a couple of avenues. The most unlikely scenario (but most ideal for us) I think is that she goes along with what I propose.

A - Her response is exactly what it's been before. She refuses both transparency or to contributing more and will keep the status quo.

B - She might say yes to transparency and show me everything. But ultimately she is unwilling to make any changes, contribute more, etc despite what we find in the patterns of spending, her contributions.

As far as next steps and separating finances the following I do have power over and would need to take steps to

Transparency but no change:
I stop paying for any personal items for her and reduce or eliminate paying for dining out (currently spend $600-$800 a month). I no longer pay for her gas, her tolls, separate our iphone apple accounts (currently I pay for apps, subscriptions on our iphones and we share an appleid). I no longer cover optional items but the biggest thing I can do is stopping to pay for dining out. Not as a punishment but because it's one of the only areas I can realistically cut back. there are a couple smaller bills of hers I pay that I would stop if she won't take them on. I would have to decide if I would keep paying items out of a joint account or setup a new personal account for monthly bills. I would cover the shared bills I currently do (can't force her to) but she would be responsible for her own expenses. I would prioritize emergency savings and paying down debt. It would be very distressing for her as she emotionally requires me taking her out weekly. That would stop or we would have to do cheap/free things unless she wants to pay. There also wouldn't be any money I would direct to a savings for travel or goals until some financial stability is established which could be a couple of years.

If she refuses transparency and won't change contributions:
If she won't share her financial information I would need to separate our finances for tax purposes because we are both on an LLC that she receives payment for. If I can't see her accounts to ensure accurate income information to file taxes then I would have no choice but to file jointly this year but would remove myself off the LLC in 2026 and future years we would have to file individually. Unfortunately this would mean more of a tax burden overall but she has outright said she doesn't want to claim all her income so I cannot trust that she is not committing tax evasion (which essentially puts me at risk because I'm the one giving the information to our accountant and we file jointly). this would happen as well if she won't change or I can't get verification that she's actually putting 20% into an account for business so that's covered.

There is a 3rd and probably some other options I'm not thinking of but she could refuse transparency and offer some token more contribution. I would have some grey area to deal with. I feel like I'm still dealing with a situation where there's financial infidelity - hiding income and spending.  Plus regardless unless I know what she's earning and can verify 20% of consulting income is in fact getting set aside I have to separate as much as I can.

Yes, I am considering divorce as an option. For me I want to express what I need, follow through with the consequences of that and make next step decisions based on that. I still hope she might come around if I'm consistent with my boundaries. If she doesn't come around things will likely get worse. I will continue to get more resentful of her, and she will get more resentful of me because I'm not treating her like the princess she thinks she is. Things will move towards a natural conclusion and I'm realistic that may mean divorce.

[Notwendy]

If you have been filing taxes as a married couple - how do you not know her earnings? They’d be reported on W2 and 1099 forms that you both submit? Curious how she’d keep that secret on joint filing - you both have to sign. I can see how she’s able to hide her expenses.

[campbembpd]

If you have been filing taxes as a married couple - how do you not know her earnings? They’d be reported on W2 and 1099 forms that you both submit? Curious how she’d keep that secret on joint filing - you both have to sign. I can see how she’s able to hide her expenses.

Excellent question - she does have 1 consulting job where she gets a 1099, a p/t employment where she gets a W2, but also had a private practice where clients typically pay via Zelle, Venmo or PayPal. That can be a significant source of income. That’s part of the LLC and I submit a spreadsheet with all the info to our accountant along with of course all the usual tax forms. Last year I had access to her accounts so I was able to download the transactions and reconcile in consulting income for the year. But that all consulting income goes into her personal accounts so unless she allows me access I have no idea of what she actually earned.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Camp-
I worked in the financial industry for years and volunteered counseling in financial literacy to people in transitional housing for numerous years.  There’s one thing I’m wondering that I’m not sure you mentioned; and I’m hoping this doesn’t upset you.

This sort of dovetails with what Notwendy mentions about whether or not you’re completely aware of the entirety of your W’s income for tax purposes.

*Are you certain that your wife does NOT have credit card availability and/or debt that you’re unaware of?  You may be able to run a credit report to confirm what you think you know.

In addition, and I’ll have to look up the phrase and meaning since I don’t absolutely recall, but it nearly applied to me during my divorce in 2011-2012… There was (in the U.S. at least) something like “the innocent spouse” clause.  This had to do with my not knowing what my exH was or was not reporting in terms of income while I was still attached to him; and he leaned toward financial dishonesty when no one was watching.  You may wish to look into that to protect yourself.

I know this is way beyond your topic of HRT, but there are ways for you to more easily work down your debt burden (without paying it ALL off) if you want to do that.  I’d be happy to discuss that with you.

Finally ON the HRT topic, I’ve been on an estrogen only patch since my total hysterectomy in 2004.  The patch has never caused mood swings for me. I was not in menopause when I had to have the surgery, so maybe that makes the difference?  I will say that when I get the blues, I take an OTC liquid iron/B complex supplement that was originally suggested by my gynecologist in 2004.  The stuff is so good.

Take good care.  It really does seem like you’re doing everything you possibly can.

Warmly,
Gems

[CC43]

Hi there,

From a financial perspective, I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd take control of what I can control.  That is, expecting your spouse to cooperate with a long-term, belt-tightening plan probably isn't going to work in practice.  My guess is, she might agree in theory to controlling spending, but when the time comes, she'll continue to spend just like she always has.  And she'll expect you to contribute and sacrifice today, while her increased contribution will be delayed in the future.  And then when the future comes, she'll renege, one way or another--she might argue she never made a deal with you in the first place.  Even if you have a written agreement, she'll probably rip it up, or have some sort of meltdown to force you to relent.  Is that how things have gone down to date?  If so, it's more likely than not that she'll continue to spend carelessly, and not contribute her fair share to the household expenses, no matter how transparent, earnest or reasonable you are.  Financial responsibility takes a lot of planning, determination and delayed gratification, and those are traits your spouse just doesn't have.  But YOU do.

If that's an accurate portrayal of reality, then what you can control is you.  You can make sure the household essentials are covered; anything your spouse ends up contributing is gravy.  You can completely cut out non-essential expenses for a time (start with six months), until you get your debt under control.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't spend any money whatsoever on vacations, restaurants or take-out, except for a very special day like your birthday.  Restaurants, convenience foods and travel are wants, not needs, and what you need right now is financial security.  If I were in your shoes, I'd also cut out entertainment, such as streaming services.  If your wife wants a streaming service, then she can pick up the tab.  It doesn't have to be forever.  You are prioritizing your financial security over entertainment.  In the meantime, you can explore free alternatives, such as checking out books or DVDs from the library, or inviting friends over for a pot-luck/game night, for example.

Given that pwBPD are erratic and prone to meltdowns, I'm not even sure if I would enter into a detailed discussion.  I think I'd just do it.  I'd stop paying for the streaming/cable service, and when she asks, I'd just state the truth:  "I have to reduce expenses because we have a huge amount of debt that's growing, not shrinking, and I can't continue spending on non-essentials."  I'd stop going to restaurants and buying take-out; I'd make dinner every night, and pack lunches to take to work.  If my spouse insisted on a weekly date night, then I'd cook a special meal, and bring out the candles and cloth napkins.  If she insists on a restaurant meal, then she can pay the bill.  I'd shop for a cheaper phone/data plan and sign up for it.  I'd cancel any subscriptions I'm not using, and explore cheaper options (or pauses) for ones I am using, such as a gym membership.  

[ForeverDad]

I will agree with gemsforeyes, HRT is probably not the cause of your troubles.  Yes, it can be part of the problem and it can trigger more troublesome issues but the core issue is the undiagnosed Borderline PD traits.  If she is not diligently addressing those perceptions and patterns, then it's not going to get better - at least not by much - and it could get worse.

I recall that after my child was born, my then-spouse behaved for over a year as though she had postpartum depression.  It was so difficult.  Then she quit breastfeeding and life was so much better for a couple months.  Then one of her friends called her a traitor and the march of ranting and raging continued and life worsened again.  In her case nursing a baby was a factor for a time, but underlying it all was the personality dysfunction. 

Fortunately, your children are adults and so custody and parenting issues so problematical for those of us with minor children shouldn't impact you as you try to separate at least part of your life from your spouse's life.