Adult Son--wife left him to be safe.

[Yochana1950]

I finally understand why I struggled raising this son.  Narcisstic BPD.  His low self esteem wife has left (hopefully to not return immediately).  She is willing to seek counsel together but he is not willing.  I need a counselor to help me navigate.  My daughter in law will be better without him with their 3 kids 6,yr.4yr,6months but my son who has always been in a good work situation,home, provision, etc is at risk to live out his "fantasies" and loose not only his marriage but all that has been good because he doesn't realize he is wacko in his thinking. I would like to find a counselor in my area or online.  Don't know if I can say what city? I not trying  to coerce my daughter-in-law into staying but I do need wise counsel how she, I, and my other children should move forward to make the situation the best for all concerned!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family.  I'm so sorry we're meeting like this and I feel for your struggles.  I've faced them as well and was equally lost.

Does your son have a formal diagnosis?  And is he in counseling at all?  How old is he?

I'm asking because despite everyone's best intentions, the only person who can change your son's behavior is himself.  He has to want it and he has to want to fight for his family.

[Yochana1950]

He will be 44 in April.  He had a forceps delivery that caused a head injury at birth which gave him headaches since birth until I realized at 10 that he had issues and sought manual therapy and helped that but he struggle in school with LD in reading, writing,math.  He kept it together at school and blew up at home.  I tried taking him to a counselor but that caused more scars (I didn't know what he need but I knew their technique wouldn't work).   He was also ADD.  He was always oppositional defiant and by the time he was 5 he hated me.  With spiritual warfare that improved and our relationship was good in early teen years because I evolved with approach--pulled from public school, tried 2 private schools (drew picture with dagger through heart at 8 in private school).  Finally homeschooled him and was able to improve his learning environment for all those issues with innovative approaches.  All the time raising his sister and brother (he would literally kick his little brother).  Since it was a challenge to find a counselor that was appropriate for him, I resorted to counseling for myself to learn how techniques to use with him and to address my issues with my past and how to deal with my husband who apparently had his own mental deficits (in denial about our son's mental state and not providing a consistent united front for our son).  So, we made it to adulthood without major issues, he married (2007) and finally he had kids(all und 7 yr.) .  He has always been gainfully employed (never blew up on the job).  Blows up at home.  I raised him to be independent and ultimately he went into business for himself and they have never been financially destitute.  He is a workaholic. Currently they actually have a beautiful house down the block which is quite an accomplishment considering all I have been through with him since the day he was born.  He does not have an offical diagosis BPD and I also believe he is absolutely narcissist ---I think it is a combination.  He has never viewed the world correctly.  Currently he comments that his wife is evil because he says she just stares at him.  After looking at the video about BPD (he has not been suicidal) I heard the comment about reading faces----it fits.  When he first married,  he commented when they were apart, he couldn't visulize her face.  He may not be 100% borderline but the issues include BPD traits and I do need a counselor for me to help me approach him in way that we can even discuss counseling and what to say to my grandkids.  I NEED SKILLS to make through this unbelievable dark time.  We have made it to this point without him taking his first drink ever (ETOH is genetic)---his brother and sister had a big argument with him when he was a young adult.  He wanted to drink "to fit in".  He has been faithful in his marriage and not gone down a path of self destruction.  But if his mousey wife is no longer his wife, I am very concerned.  We have never had the heart ache others have suffered .  I love my daughter in law and she loves us but I want her life to be better but if she does divorce,  my world will be more of a mess.  My husband has mentally always been a challenge to communicate with (due to environmental challenges I now realize) and it has progressed to just a little bit of dementia.  I need a counselor for me that understands borderline personality so I can receive wise counsel for myself !  My daughter talked with him and told him he need counseling but he is convinced he is the only one that is right and refuses to go (my daughter in law is in counseling and that is why she had the courage to leave---she believes in joint counseling) .  In his eyes no one else knows anything! Sorry for the long response,  This is it .

[CC43]

Hi there,

I'm sorry you're in a tough spot, essentially wanting to protect your grandchildren from the disordered thinking patterns of your son.  I can relate a little bit, because I have an adult stepdaughter with BPD, and another person in the family with undiagnosed NPD.  But the situations are somewhat different because your son seems to be functional, at least in terms of earning a salary.  The people with BPD/NPD in my life are not as high functioning right now.

Anyway, the uNPD in my life is long-term unemployed, suffers from "fantastical" thinking and neglects his three young children.  His "fantasies" and his bizarre "narrative" of his life have gotten worse, not better, over the last decade.  Without a rigid structure of employment or a wife to cater to his every need and usher him around, he slipped into increasing dysfunction.  Even though he has three wonderful kids, he can't seem to get his act together, not even for their sake.  The underlying problem is that with narcissism, the only person he cares about is himself.  His distorted thinking--grandiosity, elements of paranoia, extreme arrogance, demandingness of others, exceptionalism for himself, vindictiveness--seems to taint his decision-making.  He basically makes little, if any, effort to be with his kids, and when he deigns to be present, he makes the entire visit about him and his extensive needs.  It's as if the roles are reversed:  he's the kid, and his kids are his caretakers.  When he doesn't get exactly what he wants, he can be cruel, to his own kids!  And yet he can "pull himself together" when he wants to.  He can appear almost normal and be very convincing with authority figures, such as CPS or cops.  He has no problem with lying.

Anyway, the "least bad" formula that seems to work for the uNPD father is this:  his visits with children must be supervised, and in practice that means supervision by his mother.  She's the one who organizes visitation, including driving and meal preparation.  She picks up and drives around the uNPD father, and my guess is that she "parents" him right along with the grandkids.  You see, the uNPD is generally unable to prepare regular meals for his kids or supervise them appropriately.  Since grandma is responsible, she'll ensure the kids get three meals a day and go to bed at a reasonable hour instead of staying up all night on screens.  And grandma is fun, she'll take the kids to a museum, beach or some sort of excursion, even if uNPD father stays alone to nap all day.  UNPD father is supposed to send child support, but he's generally negligent, and every payment is an argument with him.  Courts have mandated child support and sale of the marital home, but he is generally uncooperative, and since he has no income, there are no wages to garnish.  My point is, assuming ongoing "compliance" from someone who is uncooperative because of mental illness doesn't work very well.  The uNPD father has cited every excuse possible for noncompliance--it's never his fault, always someone (or something) else.

Another point might interest you:  my understanding is that any inheritance going to uNPD father is to be held in a trust administered by a family member.  Why?  Because uNPD father has proven himself to be unreliable with finances, as he chooses unemployment while he binge-spends on frivolous items.  Apparently he has piles of unopened boxes of online orders shipped to his home.  His family obviously came to the conclusion that he'd be better off if he had someone more responsible manage his inheritance on his behalf.

I'm sorry you've struggled so much, probably for years.  I imagine that you've tried to protect your son, but he just won't cooperate.  Maybe it makes sense to focus on the welfare of the grandkids, provided you're in a position to help in some way.  In reading these boards, I've seen that a typical scenario is for the pwBPD to isolate kids from grandparents as punishment for perceived grievances.  That is heartbreaking as well.

[Yochana1950]

Thank you for more insight.  Minus the not working, my son sounds a lot like what you describe.  Makes me think twice about his inheritance and I will have a talk with his siblings about that.Is there any online counseling that addresses this kind of disorder? 

[ForeverDad]

He kept it together at school and blew up at home... 
He was always oppositional defiant and by the time he was 5 he hated me... 
All the time raising his sister and brother (he would literally kick his little brother)...
He has always been gainfully employed (never blew up on the job).  Blows up at home...

This is a typical pattern, no one wants to look bad in public scenarios.  But people with BPD traits (pwBPD) make the contrast (public versus private behavior) so much more distinct by relaxing their efforts by "letting their hair down", in other words, venting on those in more private close relationships.

He does not have an official diagosis BPD and I also believe he is absolutely narcissist ---I think it is a combination.  He has never viewed the world correctly.

Your DIL ought to be informed that family court systems seldom are concerned about seeking a diagnosis, apparently treating litigants as people who are just bickering, more or less.  Court has learned they too can't find success by ordering counseling or long term therapy.  What court does is set firm boundaries called orders.  While your son didn't see you nor his wife as an Authority to be respected, family court is The Authority, though a very reluctant, passive and slow-moving one.

Family court generally focuses on documentation and evidence.  (We are advised to have a similar perspective... document the facts.)  Mostly, court seems to ignore matters older than six months before filing, presumably taking the stance that if they had been serious incidents, they would have been brought to the court's attention long before now.

My daughter talked with him and told him he need counseling but he is convinced he is the only one that is right and refuses to go (my daughter in law is in counseling and that is why she had the courage to leave---she believes in joint counseling).

Kudos to your DIL and her counselor!  Since you're looking for a counselor too, maybe her counselor can offer a few referrals for you to try?  (Of course, don't share with your son how you went about finding your counselor.)

Progress with joint counseling depends on cooperation, dragging an unwilling spouse won't succeed.  It can be attempted but be prepared that it may not work.  Sorry.

I NEED SKILLS to make through this unbelievable dark time.

Feel free to browse and read our extensive history of posts and replies.  Surely among them you will find comments that can be applied to your situation.

Also we have a variety of other boards here focused on various themes.  How about starting with the Tools and Skills workshops board linked here?