Is a court-ordered psych eval worth it

[mikejones75093]

Ok so a giant nightmare of a multi year custody battle.  Nothing but false allegations and coaching.  I have very thorough documentation, witnesses, and professionals showing it's all false and coached.  The other party is now claiming conspiracy.  I have multi agencies coming to testify for me, and basically I'm Epstein without the wealth, power, or connections in the other parties mind.  The other party represents themself no attorney and just files motions left and right and it is delaying over and over and over.   Multiple motions to recuse, transfer venue, saying they didn't get all discovery because the "epstein" files showing the conspiracy aren't there.  The other party doesn't even follow the orders and my attorney has filed multiple enforcements and sanctions and we won, the other party never pays.  I am tired of it, I think the judge, the witnesses, and everyone knows although nobody can actually come out and say it.  Is it worth it to come out and point out what the other party has done and request a full psych eval?  Or are they too smart and will pass it?  If I could get an actual diagnosis on the record I think that would end this circus.  It's legalized harassment at this point and there are no consequences except being awarded fees that never get paid, and those fees don't come close to what I've had to pay my attorney over the last 2 years.  Everyone says dont bring up mental illness in court, the other party does everything everyone says NOT to do in court and here we are 2 years later and still going.  So at what point do I just say screw it and ask for the psych eval?

[CC43]

Hi there,

A custody battle is generally a nightmare, but with BPD/NPD, it's an order of magnitude worse.

I think I'd advise that since you're dealing with a custody case here, the well-being of the children comes first.  Let's do a thought experiment.  Let's say you order a psych eval, and it comes back that your ex has BPD.  I'd ask, so what?  Parents can have all sorts of issues--physical, mental, financial, etc.--but nevertheless they're still able to parent.  So I think that what it comes down to is whether your ex is abusive, negligent or otherwise not capable of caring for your kid(s) properly.  My point is, it's not so much the diagnosis of BPD that's important; it's the behaviors that adversely impact the kid(s) that matter.  Things like screaming at the kid(s), insulting them, humiliating them, hitting them, scaring them, threatening them, punishing them excessively, blaming them, and making them over-function for their mom, becoming HER emotional caretaker and HER servants instead of the other way around, the way it's supposed to be.  You need to document a pattern of abuse in my opinion.

I have an ex BIL who is undiagnosed NPD and has a highly dysfunctional life, and who was also extremely combative in court, being an ex lawyer himself.  It took the courts a long time to "see through" his ploys--but once they did, they came down hard on him.  Basically they found him in contempt of court, and his parenting time was severely restricted, requiring supervision by another adult all times.

How did the court get there?  Well, CPS was involved, twice, and a GAL was appointed.  The GAL's investigations took several months.  And though a Cluster B can seem to "pull themselves together" for a short time, I think they don't have the stamina or consistency to "fake" it for very long.  Their self-destructive tendencies eventually shine through.  For my BIL, that included heavy drinking (and failing multiple breathalyzer tests), several missed appointments and court dates, the inability to produce requested documents, non-compliance with child support and general non-cooperation with court orders.  On top of that, in the intervening months he had run-ins with police and a few medical events, one requiring a long hospitalization.  In addition, he had a long track record of skipping visitation and neglecting to call his children when he had agreed to do it.  Together with the GAL report and recommendations, the courts saw through his BS and came up with a reasonable custody arrangement.  It was one of the very, very rare cases that wasn't settled and actually went to trial, because my ex BIL was so stubborn and refused to cooperate or negotiate.
 
But central to all that was demonstrating, not that my ex BIL was mentally ill, but that his parenting was inadequate for the children.  In his case, things like spotty driving/accidents, reports of not feeding the children, not attending to normal parenting duties (e.g. PTA meetings, doctors appointments, dental visits, kids' activities, etc.), parentification, allowing the kids to see porn/inappropriate movies, abusive language/insults and an unclean home were important in building the "case" of not being fit to parent on his own.  His inability to care for his own health issues (untreated diabetes, kidney failure, gout, alcoholism) also played a part.

Hope that perspective helps a little.

[mikejones75093]

Hi there,

A custody battle is generally a nightmare, but with BPD/NPD, it's an order of magnitude worse.

I think I'd advise that since you're dealing with a custody case here, the well-being of the children comes first.  Let's do a thought experiment.  Let's say you order a psych eval, and it comes back that your ex has BPD.  I'd ask, so what?  Parents can have all sorts of issues--physical, mental, financial, etc.--but nevertheless they're still able to parent.  So I think that what it comes down to is whether your ex is abusive, negligent or otherwise not capable of caring for your kid(s) properly.  My point is, it's not so much the diagnosis of BPD that's important; it's the behaviors that adversely impact the kid(s) that matter.  Things like screaming at the kid(s), insulting them, humiliating them, hitting them, scaring them, threatening them, punishing them excessively, blaming them, and making them over-function for their mom, becoming HER emotional caretaker and HER servants instead of the other way around, the way it's supposed to be.  You need to document a pattern of abuse in my opinion.

I have an ex BIL who is undiagnosed NPD and has a highly dysfunctional life, and who was also extremely combative in court, being an ex lawyer himself.  It took the courts a long time to "see through" his ploys--but once they did, they came down hard on him.  Basically they found him in contempt of court, and his parenting time was severely restricted, requiring supervision by another adult all times.

How did the court get there?  Well, CPS was involved, twice, and a GAL was appointed.  The GAL's investigations took several months.  And though a Cluster B can seem to "pull themselves together" for a short time, I think they don't have the stamina or consistency to "fake" it for very long.  Their self-destructive tendencies eventually shine through.  For my BIL, that included heavy drinking (and failing multiple breathalyzer tests), several missed appointments and court dates, the inability to produce requested documents, non-compliance with child support and general non-cooperation with court orders.  On top of that, in the intervening months he had run-ins with police and a few medical events, one requiring a long hospitalization.  In addition, he had a long track record of skipping visitation and neglecting to call his children when he had agreed to do it.  Together with the GAL report and recommendations, the courts saw through his BS and came up with a reasonable custody arrangement.  It was one of the very, very rare cases that wasn't settled and actually went to trial, because my ex BIL was so stubborn and refused to cooperate or negotiate.
 
But central to all that was demonstrating, not that my ex BIL was mentally ill, but that his parenting was inadequate for the children.  In his case, things like spotty driving/accidents, reports of not feeding the children, not attending to normal parenting duties (e.g. PTA meetings, doctors appointments, dental visits, kids' activities, etc.), parentification, allowing the kids to see porn/inappropriate movies, abusive language/insults and an unclean home were important in building the "case" of not being fit to parent on his own.  His inability to care for his own health issues (untreated diabetes, kidney failure, gout, alcoholism) also played a part.

Hope that perspective helps a little.

I'm just trying to figure out how to end it.  She yells and screams, the kids are afraid of asking for certain things because they know she will get mad, she talks very bad about me to them including the case, tells the kids I'm trying to put her in jail and that I'm dangerous.  Mine is a professional that looks good and speaks amazing.  Her vocabulary is insane, you can't argue with her.  She's not a run down drunk or druggie, its just the extreme false allegations.  She calls cps on me, calls welfare checks on me.  I'm highly investigated and they all know nothing is wrong, and they all showed up to court and said it, so now its a conspiracy between me, the judge, and the prosecutor to traffic kids away from good moms.  Seriously that's what she said.  She reaches out to senators and groups, testifies in front of congress about corruption in family court.   So at first you think wow she's this amazing person fighting for us, then you realize who she claims to be is an act or a mask that really she's miserable and angry.  I've had her held in contempt twice and multiple sanctions, she still doesn't follow the orders under the veil of child safety, and now all of the professionals and law enforcement are involved in this huge coverup with me.    Now once you don't believe her or go against her, well you're part of it and she goes psycho doxxing you posting bad about you and that's when people realize, but the courts?  she gets away with everything.  I figure if I had a diagnosis that says that's what they do.  That she will twist anything to be bad when I'm painted all black then once you don't agree with her you're right there with me.  Maybe it wouldn't help, I don't know I'm just upset this isn't ending and she's escalating, not violence, just posting lies all over everywhere non stop. 

[CC43]

I'm just trying to figure out how to end it.  She yells and screams, the kids are afraid of asking for certain things because they know she will get mad, she talks very bad about me to them including the case, tells the kids I'm trying to put her in jail and that I'm dangerous.  Mine is a professional that looks good and speaks amazing.  Her vocabulary is insane, you can't argue with her.  She's not a run down drunk or druggie, its just the extreme false allegations.  She calls cps on me, calls welfare checks on me.  I'm highly investigated and they all know nothing is wrong. 

Indeed, my ex BIL is similar.  When he wants to, he can look good, speak convincingly and exude charisma, just like a lawyer.  You can't argue with him, and he can do no wrong, because he finds a million loopholes aka excuses and always blames someone else.  He makes false allegations, which is classic BPD/NPD.  In fact, most of his allegations are pure projection of his own issues onto his ex.  For example, he alleges that his then-wife assaulted him, when reality is the complete opposite.  It's just that she had photographs of bruises and a trip to the doctor to prove it, and he had nothing but his 260 pounds, double her size.

By the way, disparagement of a parent in front of children is frowned upon by the courts, because that is deemed to interfere with the parent-child relationship.  I'm pretty sure I included "scaring the children" in my list of potentially abusive tactics, and in my opinion that would include threats of locking up either parent in prison.

I'm not sure what else to advise but to document, document, document any evidence of your ex potentially abusing your children.  One incident that was a turning point in my family was when my niece approached a school counselor to express her fears about riding in the car with her dad (because she feared he was driving drunk and/or in a precarious, medically impaired state), and about the conditions in her dad's home (vermin, lack of food).  On top of that, she revealed that he was cruel to her, calling her a slut and "hor."  She was eleven, afraid to utter the word and too young to spell it correctly.  Now, most children don't want to get their parent in trouble, and they might fear retribution.  But she took the risk, because she was frightened/traumatized and couldn't stand living with him anymore.  Since the school counselor is a mandated reporter, a CPS investigation was launched.

As the kid(s) get older, they may be able to vote with their feet.

I'm really sorry you and your kid(s) have to deal with this.

[zachira]

Consult a lawyer to see if you really need a psych evaluation. The most important is that it is done by a qualified professional who has a reputation for doing fair accurate
psych evaluations if you indeed need one.

[mikejones75093]

Consult a lawyer to see if you really need a psych evaluation. The most important is that it is done by a qualified professional who has a reputation for doing fair accurate
psych evaluations if you indeed need one.

I have an attorney and they just keep saying I have to go through the procedure.  A pro se BPD just files files files all kinds of stuff.  Accusations of not sending discovery or missing files that prove the conspiracy, well they don't exist.  At this point I think the judge and everyone knows something is off but they have to go by the law.  I'm just tired of every single time she wants to file something I have to pay more money to have a hearing over what she perceives to be the truth.  Then violate the orders and cry wolf when a contempt is filed, and everyone is biased and we need a recusal and to transfer venue.  She's so comfortable she argues with the judge and tells him he doesn't know the law.  Every day I take off of work is a court date, I would like to not pay an attorney and not have to use all my pto on hearings.  I'm just trying to figure out how to end this, it's obvious to everyone that something isn't right with her.

[mikejones75093]

Indeed, my ex BIL is similar.  When he wants to, he can look good, speak convincingly and exude charisma, just like a lawyer.  You can't argue with him, and he can do no wrong, because he finds a million loopholes aka excuses and always blames someone else.  He makes false allegations, which is classic BPD/NPD.  In fact, most of his allegations are pure projection of his own issues onto his ex.  For example, he alleges that his then-wife assaulted him, when reality is the complete opposite.  It's just that she had photographs of bruises and a trip to the doctor to prove it, and he had nothing but his 260 pounds, double her size.

By the way, disparagement of a parent in front of children is frowned upon by the courts, because that is deemed to interfere with the parent-child relationship.  I'm pretty sure I included "scaring the children" in my list of potentially abusive tactics, and in my opinion that would include threats of locking up either parent in prison.

I'm not sure what else to advise but to document, document, document any evidence of your ex potentially abusing your children.  One incident that was a turning point in my family was when my niece approached a school counselor to express her fears about riding in the car with her dad (because she feared he was driving drunk and/or in a precarious, medically impaired state), and about the conditions in her dad's home (vermin, lack of food).  On top of that, she revealed that he was cruel to her, calling her a slut and "hor."  She was eleven, afraid to utter the word and too young to spell it correctly.  Now, most children don't want to get their parent in trouble, and they might fear retribution.  But she took the risk, because she was frightened/traumatized and couldn't stand living with him anymore.  Since the school counselor is a mandated reporter, a CPS investigation was launched.

As the kid(s) get older, they may be able to vote with their feet.

I'm really sorry you and your kid(s) have to deal with this.

I document everything.  All she does is run her mouth, I have hours of evidence and witnesses.  The court does nothing.  They won't even listen to if she talks bad to the kids.  It's just like BPD, don't bring it up type thing.  It's all hearsay. 

[GaGrl]

Do the children have a GAL? Much can be done through a good guardian ad litem, since they are focused on representing the children's best interest.

[ForeverDad]

Everyone says don't bring up mental illness in court, the other party does everything everyone says NOT to do in court and here we are 2 years later and still going.  So at what point do I just say screw it and ask for the psych eval?

We get it.  We comply and get little or no credit while the ex fights everything and gets few or weak consequences.  It's almost as though the court sees us as more responsible and thus more consequence-worthy but keeps acting more as a passive referee hoping the players figure it out, as though you're only bickering.

In my experience the problem is that a psych eval is quite limited.  My ex and I were both ordered to take psych evals when we initially separated.  I complied.  No surprise, the university grad student's report listed "anxiety".  My ex?  To this day, over 2 decades later, I don't even know whether she even took her psych eval.  And yes, no consequences.

What I learned from that experience is that when you both are ordered to do something, might be a good idea for your attorney to merely inform the other side you've got your part done and wait for them to appear and submit their part.  Otherwise you'll comply and be left whistling in the  wind.

As CC43 wrote, a mental health diagnosis by itself will mean little, it's the impact of her parenting on the kids.  In my case I had a few magistrates who were of no help but eventually the rotation came around to the no-nonsense magistrate.  Between the magistrates, a lengthy Custody Evaluation by a respected expert child psychologist, a GAL for our child and my lawyer... the disparagement, the obstruction and the legal sabotage were addressed.  Sadly, we didn't get to that point until long after my two year divorce.

I'm just trying to figure out how to end it...

I'm highly investigated and they all know nothing is wrong, and they all showed up to court and said it, so now its a conspiracy between me, the judge, and the prosecutor to traffic kids away from good moms.  Seriously that's what she said.  She reaches out to senators and groups, testifies in front of congress about corruption in family court.   So at first you think wow she's this amazing person fighting for us, then you realize who she claims to be is an act or a mask that really she's miserable and angry.  I've had her held in contempt twice and multiple sanctions, she still doesn't follow the orders under the veil of child safety, and now all of the professionals and law enforcement are involved in this huge coverup with me... Now once you don't believe her or go against her, well you're part of it and she goes psycho doxxing you posting bad about you and that's when people realize, but the courts?  she gets away with everything.  I figure if I had a diagnosis that says that's what they do.

That publicity posturing is somewhat rare here and we have to be careful not to speculate, but with your ex doing all this publicity amplifying all the issues, I wonder whether you might conclude she's co-morbid with Histrionic PD, where she must be the center of attention.

We had a member here over a decade ago who had an ex like that and that BPD/HPD combo was devastating and had their family court tied up in circles.

Are you still in the divorce process?  Are you still living under a temp order?  Do you have a Guardian ad Litem (GAL = lawyer representing the children)?  As with a Custody Evaluator, a GAL must be well qualified, experienced, unbiased and not easily gullible.  My divorce took 2 years, yet it took several more years before court finally addressed her antics.  Once I obtained full legal guardianship (custody) and went back successfully to get majority time, my ex's entitlement balloon deflated a bit and we never went to court again.  However, if your ex is Histrionic, whether diagnosed or not, even that may not resolve the conflict.

[CC43]

I understand that courts are both slow and loath to act.  I also think that they move to separate kids from parents only in extreme circumstances, like domestic violence or incest.  Even criminals are allowed to see their kids.  Nevertheless, I think courts will step in when it comes to kids' safety.  In the case of my disordered uNPD BIL, the solution was to require adult-supervised visits, as well as prohibit him from driving with the kids, and require him to pass a breathalyzer test during visitation.

Having said that, nothing really prevents my BIL from insulting his ex or his kids . . . but during in-person visitation, he's supervised by another adult.  During phone calls, he's not.  Little "forces" him to comply with the parenting plan, and he remains largely non-compliant with the terms of the divorce, too.  For example, it took him over a year to vacate the marital home and put it up for sale in accordance with the divorce decree.  He left the home in such ill repair after living in it alone during the pendancy of divorce that it remains unsold, despite listing it well below the Zillow estimated value, while he refuses to fix key issues like the A/C and septic tank.  What I'm trying to say is that you should ASSUME that any parenting plan or divorce decree will involve some non-cooperation on the part of your ex, because that's the way she is.

It sounds to me like your biggest issue right now is that you can't "end" interacting with your ex because your kids are involved.  Alas, I don't think you can prevent your ex from badmouthing you and spreading false stories behind your back.  I'd say, try not to engage with her at all, except concerning logistics with your kids.

There's also nothing stopping her from filing claims in the courts.  If you're in the US, anybody can sue anybody.  But I'd think that if the suits are frivolous, you could have the case dismissed and demand that the plaintiff pay your legal fees.  My ex BIL also tried to play the court system durning the custody case . . . and even though he was a lawyer, he didn't follow the process correctly, and the court basically slapped his hand.  Ultimately he was found in contempt of court, and they ruled in favor of my sister, who remained the reasonable and compliant one throughout the multi-year process, always putting the kids' interests first and foremost.  I wish the same for your ex and you.