Trying to alienate you from family

[PeteWitsend]

Hi all,

I've written about the issues I've had with my wife before.  The most toxic fights we have tend to be about my mom.  I've seen comments from other guys here married to women with BPD that deal with the same or similar situations.  it's almost always something trivial or ridiculous that causes the fights... .mom not taking shoes off when entering house, wife thinks mom bought her a cheap gift, mom jokingly said "I'm too old for this!" when holding our screaming 1 year old after he was born.

Anyway, my mom lives across the country and we don't see her much.  After the last fight we had; my mom sent her a new vacuum cleaner for xmas... .(it was not cheap) which lead to her screaming at me on a daily basis for nearly 2 weeks before she finally admitted one night that it was a nice vacuum and a thoughtful gift, and she didn't know why she was acting the way she was.  she had in the meantime thrown out the vacuum, and also thrown out the presents and cards my mom sent our boys, telling me they were "cheap dollar store stuff"

but the next day it was like that conversation never happened, and she was back screaming at me because i texted my mom (and other family) "merry xmas"

so this is Part I: after this fight my wife went there, saying she never wanted to see my mom again, and wouldn't let her see "her kids"... .ie our kids.  she also said she expected me to not want to see her again after "how she treated your wife."  when i said "wait, you want me never to see my mom again because you didn't like the xmas gift she got you?" she said she wouldn't ask that, but only because I would resent her for it.

[PeteWitsend]

part 2: I know with a lot of effort on my part, I could probably smooth this over.  I have done that before.  

on a couple previous visits from my mom, my wife commended me on my behavior, said I was good at telling my mom to take her shoes off, etc. but inevitably would find something wrong with the visit a week later and start laying into me about it.  

I want my kids to have a good relationship with their grandparents.  I also don't want to have to go through weeks of fights, arguments and what not everytime my mom visits.  it's exhausting.

part 3: The galling thing is my wife is from another country.  We recently took efforts to bring her mom here permanently, and will apply for her dad next.  She expects they'll live with us, at least until they get jobs.  So, I have to bear the burden of my in-laws, while she's not willing to tolerate even the most trivial issues when my mom or other family visits.  My in-laws are also poor, uneducated and at least in my father-in-laws case, lazy & unwilling to work.  his whole life he's gone from scam to "get rich quick" scheme, blowing his family's money repeatedly, while always avoiding a real job.  I've tried to share my concerns about him with her but she either dismisses them saying "if he doesn't work, he has to go back to our country" or responds by attacking my family (but they're not a financial burden on us).

So... .yeah... .I don't see how this going to be a workable future.  I'm getting closer to pulling the plug.  

if it was just about dealing with the general BPD stuff... .fights, accusations, insecurity, neediness... .I think I could deal.  But now actively trying to alienate me from my family while expecting me to coddle hers... .I don't think I can do it.

Thoughts?  anyone else have to deal with alienation from family? Strategies to deal with this?

[Grey Kitty]

It isn't about the shoes, it isn't about the vacuum cleaner.

If you let the argument with your wife go there, you are being pulled into JADEing. You are trying to either justify what your mom did because it was reasonable and kind, or explain that it wasn't intended maliciously the way your wife insists it was.

Whenever you do that, you are invalidating your wife's feelings, and that is throwing gasoline onto the flames of mental illness. Your wife probably isn't actually talking about her feelings behind this... .but trust me, she's feeling something, and that's what drove this whole thing.

What can you do about it? Perhaps ask about the feelings or validate them if she did tell you about them. You can also refuse to participate in this argument/fight.


I'd suggest that you decide on this boundary, that you will enforce it however you need to:

"I will have a relationship with my mother [and the rest of my family]. I will spend time with them. Our children will have a relationship with them. You are welcome to as well, if you want."

Believe that. Act on that. Take a stand on that.

Honestly, it hardly matters whether you tell your wife this or not--you can, and likely you have said some of it before, but telling somebody about a boundary isn't a critical part of enforcing it.

You don't have to convince your wife that it is the "right" thing for you to do. You don't have to convince her that you aren't betraying her. YOU know that both these things are true. Getting trapped in an argument with your wife where you JADE all over the place and fight won't help you, her, or your marriage.

All you have to do is convince her that you are going to act this way, and she will live with it if she lives with you. No matter how unfair she thinks it is.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Pete, Sure, it's common for a pwBPD to attempt to put a wedge between you and your family.  In my view, it's all part of their fear of abandonment and irrational belief that there's not enough love to go around.  Love, in their mind, is a limited resource capable of becoming depleted if dispensed too generously among your family and friends.  Ridiculous, but to them it's a reality because feelings equal facts.  As GK suggests, the best thing you can do is to see your family, no matter how much she protests.  That's your boundary: family is important to you, so dig in and make your family a priority.  Don't waiver or negotiate; your family members are part of her life, whether she likes it or not...

LuckyJim

[PeteWitsend]

It isn't about the shoes, it isn't about the vacuum cleaner.

If you let the argument with your wife go there, you are being pulled into JADEing. You are trying to either justify what your mom did because it was reasonable and kind, or explain that it wasn't intended maliciously the way your wife insists it was.

Whenever you do that, you are invalidating your wife's feelings, and that is throwing gasoline onto the flames of mental illness. Your wife probably isn't actually talking about her feelings behind this... .but trust me, she's feeling something, and that's what drove this whole thing.

What can you do about it? Perhaps ask about the feelings or validate them if she did tell you about them. You can also refuse to participate in this argument/fight.


I'd suggest that you decide on this boundary, that you will enforce it however you need to:

"I will have a relationship with my mother [and the rest of my family]. I will spend time with them. Our children will have a relationship with them. You are welcome to as well, if you want."

Believe that. Act on that. Take a stand on that.

Honestly, it hardly matters whether you tell your wife this or not--you can, and likely you have said some of it before, but telling somebody about a boundary isn't a critical part of enforcing it.

You don't have to convince your wife that it is the "right" thing for you to do. You don't have to convince her that you aren't betraying her. YOU know that both these things are true. Getting trapped in an argument with your wife where you JADE all over the place and fight won't help you, her, or your marriage.

All you have to do is convince her that you are going to act this way, and she will live with it if she lives with you. No matter how unfair she thinks it is.

thanks!

In this case, I did the validation thing.  The first thing I told her when she opened the box was that I agreed it was a bad gift sent in poor taste and she should return and exchange it.  She actually didn't seem troubled and a day later told me she looked up that vacuum brand online and it was a great present.

 then a week later, when she knew my mom was travelling with my grandpa who was due to have open heart surgery, sent her a bunch of nasty texts attacking her for sending the vacuum cleaner.  and this was after two months where things had been better between them, mom was calling wife to see how she was doing, at wife's request. (note: my wife will never take the initiative to call my mom, but demands my mom call her.)  At first I was really upset by this, but I talked through it all with my wife, told her I understood she was hurt, I loved her, etc.  She said she was happy I did that, it meant I loved her, was on her side.  Then next day, same thing all over again. 

Validating her feelings doesn't seem to work here; or at least not for more than a day.  She wakes up ready to fight all over again. it's almost as though she wants the conflict and won't let things drop.  "sleeping on it" makes it worse... .she wakes up energized to fight all over again, even when we went to sleep happy, hugging, and seemed to have put the fight behind us.

I thought about drawing a line on my mom's visit, and telling my wife my mom will stay in a hotel, and me and the boys will go see her; wife can come if she wants.  But I know my wife will find ways to punish me for that... .that would
involve leaving her alone to stew while the rest of us have a good time. 

I've read some other accounts from people here who seem to be able to cope with their BPD spouse by changing subject or getting them to forget about something.  my wife has a LONG memory though, and she seems to know I'm validating her feelings and doesn't like it.  maybe I'm just not very good at it.

[PeteWitsend]

Hey Pete, Sure, it's common for a pwBPD to attempt to put a wedge between you and your family.  In my view, it's all part of their fear of abandonment and irrational belief that there's not enough love to go around.  Love, in their mind, is a limited resource capable of becoming depleted if dispensed too generously among your family and friends.  ... .

Yeah, that's true.  She has often made the fights with my mom all about my reaction, as though I have to choose between one or the other.  And she frames it as my mom's doing, even though my mom is 2,000 miles away and oblivious to the fact that any conflict exists.  

Based on past experience, the length of time fights go on, I don't know if this is workable, ie, staying married and having a relationship with my family.  She's going to resent me setting this boundary, and is going to make my life a living hell
for weeks afterward... .screaming at me (usually in front of our kids), sobbing loudly so everyone can hear, slamming doors, silent treatment, ambushes.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Pete, My BPDxW did the same thing by framing it as a choice between her and my family, which in retrospect I view as pure manipulation on her part to twist my arm and force me to choose her.  There's plenty of room for both in your life, so I think the concept of choice is just BPD drama.  Another way to look at it is that you are being controlled by F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), which is how a pwBPD manipulates the Non to get her way.  As you note, you fear her reaction to such a boundary because she can make your life a living hell with screaming, silent treatment, slamming doors, ambushes, etc.  My Ex did the same.  It was hard to see the dynamic when I was lost in the F-O-G.  One day I made a firm commitment to myself that I would see friends and family, "come hell or high water," because I was about to lose the people who were important to me.  From that day forward I was relentless in my decision to keep in contact with those close to me.  I became rock-like in my attitude, which helped.  If your W senses that she is striking rock, she may back down.  I understand the stress that you are under and am not necessarily suggesting that you follow in my footsteps.  Each has to find his/her own path, yet that's how I found mine.

LuckyJim

[PeteWitsend]

thanks, Jim.

Yeah, I know that all too well. 

I first learned about the BPD suspicion from some online sources last spring and discussed it with a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist.  he said "sounds like she's BPD" after I described some of the fights and behavior from her that left me confused and upset.

I eventually read SWOE, and started seeing a counselor, and have tried to change myself as much as I can to deal with her.  at my urging, she finally agreed to see a therapist, and the results were mixed but I did see some improvement.  She stopped though because she went back to work recently.

I'm going to ask her to start seeing a therapist again on the weekends.  If she doesn't, or there's no improvement whatsoever over the course of the next couple months, I think I'm done with this marriage.  it's taken too much of a toll on me personally and professionally.  I wanted to stay for the kids' sake, but I see now that the fighting hurts them too.  reading some of the stories on the co-parenting board, I know it's not going to be easy, but honestly sounds better than walking on eggshells & not knowing what to expect 7 days a week.  and holidays are a nightmare for days on end, even if we don't see my family.  we'd all be better off apart. 

[Lucky Jim]

OK, you seem to have a good handle on the reality of your situation.  Others on this site, like me, have been down this path before you.  LJ

[Grey Kitty]

You have two tools here:

Validation (which you have used well)

Boundary Enforcement (removing yourself from the fight when your wife goes off about this at you)

You have the wrong understanding of how they work, though. They don't make your wife decide to be OK with your mom. That might happen, but it is a bonus if it does.

The reason you use those tools is to get out of the argument with your wife about how horrible your mom is.

If that works for the day and you have to do it the next day... .that's OK, you just have to use the tool again. You've got more practice now, it should be easier! 

I thought about drawing a line on my mom's visit, and telling my wife my mom will stay in a hotel, and me and the boys will go see her; wife can come if she wants.  But I know my wife will find ways to punish me for that... .that would
involve leaving her alone to stew while the rest of us have a good time. 

You can offer that option to your wife. You can offer that option to your mom. If they prefer it, that sounds good to me.

But what if your wife decides to stew and punish you over it? That's where boundary enforcement comes in. (You should have even more practice by now! ) You don't have to stick around for the punishment she decided you deserved.

[Torched]

Pete,

I really feel for you.  This was the primary boundary fight in my 16 year marriage and I know for a fact it was related to abandonment fear.  My family was very close prior to my marriage and within a year (and after some serious rages, even one in front of my family where she ended up catatonic in their bathroom), I chose her "well being" over my family.  What I was actually choosing was to cut a great deal of happiness out of my life.  As my children were born and got older, me allowing the alienation to occur also decreased the enrichment of their lives (loving grandparents and aunts/uncles).

Even with this as my primary problem in my marriage that was directly related to her BPD, there were many lesser stresses.  I'm convinced that these stresses contributed to me developing severe atrial fibrillation by age 30.  So there are potential health issues.

I would never tell you what to do.  I know that I wanted out of my marriage even before my kids were born but I felt like I had a great responsibility to stick with her through thick and thin.  I'm no quitter.  And she knew it so she abused me even more deeply because she crushed any boundaries I tried to erect.

My family asked me to give her a second chance when I first filed for divorce five years ago.  I didn't want to.  They (and our friends) persisted, not knowing what she really was.  They thought she was just a "Bad Person" who could "become good."  Not the case.  She was mentally ill and being married young I had no comparison to make with a "normal" loving relationship.

Hang in there.  I think you know in your heart what you're going to end up doing.  Just remember that both paths will be extremely difficult but you will get where you need to go eventually and it will be o.k.

[gjkopriv]

I lived the whole family thing for the short time I was with BPD woman. Its quite absurd... .Early on in the relationship I would always hear that your family doesn't do anything to reach out to me and hang out, your mom should be calling me to go to lunch and things... .meanwhile we were dating a few months... .not even that long... .Then around Christmas time, she made an effort to get closer with my parents, we took them Christmas shopping, went out to dinner, my parents had a good time, bought her daughter a couple gifts... .and it must've been a challenge, anything the family did after that, the ex would not show up to it... .she must've got her validation from my parents having a good time and that was it... .Then the one time my parents just stopped over to my place one day to drop me off an ice cream, she wasn't even there but we did have plans for an hour later. My parents were there for about 5 minutes and you would've thought it was world war III... .everyday I count my blessings its over. The stress, the walking on eggshells, never having hobbies, seeing friends... .the sex was fun... .that was pretty much it!. Don't give in... .your family will always be there for you and these people will run you dry and move on and

[DaddyBear77]

My uBPDw / uNPDw has done many of the same things regarding my FoO (family of origin). In my case, I've let the isolation / alienation persist to the point where my parents have seen / held / cried with my daughter exactly once. My daughter is 3 and a half years old.

I talk to my parents every day. I do it behind my wife's back in a secret way similar to how I manage to keep my participation here a secret. I am very upset about what I've done here. I wish I could have gone back in time and made a different choice.

I would strongly suggest you keep as many friends and family in your life as possible. Your pwBPD won't like it, but I think you'll lose touch with reality and find it harder if and when you do decide to make a bigger move forward (boundaries, separation, etc). This is from personal experience.

DB

[Lucky Jim]

I talk to my parents every day. I do it behind my wife's back in a secret way similar to how I manage to keep my participation here a secret.

DB: I did the same thing.  In my view, those w/BPD drive such communications underground.  My office became my sanctuary, where I could correspond freely with friends and family.  The alternative is to face a fire storm.  I think you are doing the right thing by keeping in touch with your parents, though I'm sad to learn that they barely know your daughter.  In a way, I was leading a double life, which was tiring.  Eventually it became too much to keep up the facade.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

I talk to my parents every day. I do it behind my wife's back in a secret way similar to how I manage to keep my participation here a secret.

This isn't the best option--it is better if you can have this relationship out in the open, obviously.

That said, the fight to do so may not be worth it, and that is a valid choice to make.

It is still 100X better than actually cutting off those relationships as demanded.

[Torched]

This isn't the best option--it is better if you can have this relationship out in the open, obviously.

That said, the fight to do so may not be worth it, and that is a valid choice to make.

It is still 100X better than actually cutting off those relationships as demanded.

I can personally say that my family were traumatized and abused by extension by my exBPDw.  They are very happy now that they don't have to deal with it, and my children are too.  The interesting thing is that with me and my ex living separate lives, my kids constantly facetime their grandparents "just to talk" whenever they are with me.  My parents tell me that the kids go to their rooms at their mom's house and secretly facetime them from there.  It bothers me that my kids have to feel how I did but at least they aren't scared to do it behind her back when they want to.  I'm guessing it is a form of disobedience for them and maybe that's exciting

[PeteWitsend]

... .

But what if your wife decides to stew and punish you over it? That's where boundary enforcement comes in. (You should have even more practice by now! ) You don't have to stick around for the punishment she decided you deserved.

I'm guessing she'll escalate at that point not just by attacking me, although she'll definitely do that too, but she'll try to make me think she's got some other guy available by flirting, going out for drinks with friends and dropping stories of guys hitting on her.  the Karpman Triangle I guess.

she hinted once if a woman feels her husband is losing interest in her, she should make him feel jealous by bringing another guy around, and "that's what she would do in her situation."

when we were dating and told her I went out for drinks with a couple girls (and a guy) I knew from a intern program, some creep who had been trying to date her for months *coincidentally* showed up at the party we were at, and it nearly came to blows.  She played coy at the time. 

(yes, I ignored plenty of red flags... .)

[PeteWitsend]

This isn't the best option--it is better if you can have this relationship out in the open, obviously.

That said, the fight to do so may not be worth it, and that is a valid choice to make.

It is still 100X better than actually cutting off those relationships as demanded.

I tried being open... .

 At my wife's insistence I did try to talk openly with my family members and including her on the calls.  but after a couple incidents where one of three things happened: 1) she didn't want to talk to them and gave me grief for suggesting we do; 2) or didn't say anything when I told her "I'm calling my mom/dad/brother" but a few minutes later erupted in tears after screaming something incoherent because I didn't ask her *explicitly* to talk to my them, or 3) more commonly refuse to join in the call, but still sit there and nitpick my side of the conversation, while assuming she knew what the person on the other end was saying (always something negative about her of course)... .I gave up.

Now I only call family at work, or in the car.

[Torched]

I tried being open... .

 At my wife's insistence I did try to talk openly with my family members and including her on the calls.  but after a couple incidents where one of three things happened: 1) she didn't want to talk to them and gave me grief for suggesting we do; 2) or didn't say anything when I told her "I'm calling my mom/dad/brother" but a few minutes later erupted in tears after screaming something incoherent because I didn't ask her *explicitly* to talk to my them, or 3) more commonly refuse to join in the call, but still sit there and nitpick my side of the conversation, while assuming she knew what the person on the other end was saying (always something negative about her of course)... .I gave up.

Now I only call family at work, or in the car.

Been there, done that.  This site is great.  I used to think I was the only person who had to deal with this.

[Lucky Jim]

Now I only call family at work, or in the car.

Same here.  Been there, done that.  Much different now with my current SO, who is happy to include my family in events.  Now it's a non-issue that doesn't come up.

LuckyJim

[Helpmate]

So familiar with this family alienations and being put in a position to chose!  That's very painful.  I can even imagine dealing with kids in between who you want them to have a relationship with your family, especially your parents. Thanks for the wise advise here.  My husband has accused me of enabling my family (no kids, extended family such as sister and her son), which I began to believe and silently agreed with him; however, I may have done that before, but I know I am healthier now and hardly even see them to avoid issues in my home.  I don't like that.  I am now empowered by these posts that yes, family matters, family is important.  This is validating to me. I need to make myself more open to siblings and friends who want to have a relationship with me.  I really need that.  He knew that my family and friends were important when we met several years ago.  We married 4 years ago.  I agree that things can become so foggy when you are in the relationship without an outside perspective.  That's why this forum is so helpful.  I am new, and I am grateful that I found you all.  I am doing everything I can to own my stuff, learn what I can, but separate emotionally of the stuff that does not belong to me.  I just bought The High Conflict Couple book by Alan E. Fruzzetti, and foreword by Marsha M. Linehan.  She is the author of DBT (Dialectal Behavior Therapy), one of the best therapy treatments for BPD.  They both have excellent youtube videos on line.   The book is excellent.  I need these things, because I bring my baggage as well.

[Grey Kitty]

Now I only call family at work, or in the car.

When I say that being open about your relationship with your family to your wife, what you are doing strikes me as pretty good, and definitely an improvement over the prior version. Here's what I'd consider best case for you, if you can do it:

You tell your wife that you have a relationship with your family and you will talk to them and see them.

I prefer having phone calls with only two people rather than having others listening; It just seems cleaner and more polite. In other words, not making it a habit to have your wife on the line, or in the room listening to half the conversation.

Since your wife goes kinda nuts about it, don't tell her that you are making specific calls, or anything.

This way you aren't hiding it and if she "catches" you at it, she may be grumpy, but you aren't doing anything you promised not to, etc.

[Torched]

When I say that being open about your relationship with your family to your wife, what you are doing strikes me as pretty good, and definitely an improvement over the prior version. Here's what I'd consider best case for you, if you can do it:

You tell your wife that you have a relationship with your family and you will talk to them and see them.

I prefer having phone calls with only two people rather than having others listening; It just seems cleaner and more polite. In other words, not making it a habit to have your wife on the line, or in the room listening to half the conversation.

Since your wife goes kinda nuts about it, don't tell her that you are making specific calls, or anything.

This way you aren't hiding it and if she "catches" you at it, she may be grumpy, but you aren't doing anything you promised not to, etc.

This is well-intentioned and has some sensibility to it.  The problem is that BPD folks aren't sensible.  What about when happy family decides things are better and they want to call you any old time?  When BPDspouse is reading a book in the living room with you?  When they start feeling like things are "getting better" so they stop by to say hi and blow your BPDspouse clean into a rage after they leave?  This all happened to me.  I had the best intentions and tried to make it work.  There is a lot of extraneous BS that the non-BPD person has to handle and just can't hit every angle.  The BPDspouse in my situation would not let any normalcy develop.  My family would take a half normal and think that it was leading to full-on normal which we would NEVER have been able to have due to exBPDwife anyways.  Just some thoughts.  Hate to be so negative though :I

[Sluggo]

've seen comments from other guys here married to women with BPD that deal with the same or similar situations.  it's almost always something trivial or ridiculous that causes the fights... .mom not taking shoes off when entering house, wife thinks mom bought her a cheap gift, mom jokingly said "I'm too old for this!"

Mine was-  wife upset my mom put dishes in wrong places and folded clothes differently than my wife wanted.  My wife asked if I could just stop talking to my family for 3 months (I only talked about 2 times a month at the time).  MY BIG MISTAKE:  Is I did what she asked.  Then it was something more, then something more.  After about 3 years I kept giving where it culminated that :  i could not text my family, could not talk to them, could not see my Dad when in hospice who only lived 5 min from me.  Again I agree to all these things thinking it would make it better.  It made it worse. 

I was feeding a empty hole that just wanted more and more and more.  I lost myself more and more and more.  It was a progression that led to the end of my marriage. 

[formflier]

Just read through the thread. 

The power struggle is over your​ r/s with your Mom...   Stay big picture and don't argue or accept punishment from your wife over it.

You can combine this with general validation.  So... .She starts in... .You validate that families can be tough to navigate and you want to talk more tonight at 8pm.

Go on about your day.   Likely much less e energy tonight at 8.

FF