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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: "I don't understand what you want from me, I don't understand what you need... "  (Read 411 times)
Lalathegreat
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« on: March 07, 2017, 08:35:35 PM »

Ok folks, I could use some serious input on how last night went off the rails and how I might tackle those two questions as they seem to be at the foundation of what is causing pwBPD stress.

I went over yesterday for dinner. Because dinner has been such a stressor, I volunteered to bring something to make - he has been sick so that gave me an "in" - "I know you haven't felt well, let me handle dinner... ." I had a sense from his texts that he was already going to be tense. His final text to me "What time are you coming, don't feel like you have to by the way." Ugh yeah. I already knew. And I decided up front that I was going to be prepared to  not take anything personally, not leap to a defensive response, and excuse myself when I felt things were becoming abusive. I also decided to go in with positive energy and a presumption of competence... .although let's face it, that is a HARD thing to do when things have been as constantly tumultuous as they have been lately.

And within 3 minutes we were off to the races. I came in, he gave me a quick hug and told me he was handling something with his son. I went to the bathroom and when I returned I came to sit by them on the couch which had some magazines and other clutter on it. pwBPD gave me a look that could kill so I immediately left for the kitchen. I hear him excuse himself to his son and he came in and let in to me - the accusation was essentially that by joining them on the couch I was putting my needs over that of his son by demanding his attention. That he could tell I was judging him because there was stuff on his couch and that he couldn't believe that I would add more to his plate when I know how stressed he has been. Then he starts talking about how my bull___ is TORTURE and that he is going to show me articles about torture and how detrimental it is. And he does sit down at his laptop and start googling ___. This is the point at which I decide that I need to just leave so I start putting on my coat and shoes. "What are you doing?" he asks... ."I can see you're upset, I'm happy to discuss this once things have calmed down. For the time being I'm going to leave." He went and grabbed the groceries I bought for dinner and essentially tells me that he doesn't play games, that it's bull___ to think that you can just leave without resolving things and that if I'm going to leave I need to leave for good and take my "___". And crud, there's his kid watching all of this unfold with a terrified expression on his face. I put down the groceries and sat down at the dining room table, pwBPD sends his kid to his room and what unfolds was essentially a 1 1/2 hour "conversation" that felt like it would never end. Essentially he describes how trying to join them on the couch was inappropriate because he had asked for space and then I had a look of "disdain" that told him that I thought his house was messy and that he was just crazy and that I wasn't really sorry and that he doesn't understand why I wouldn't give him the space he asked for. And at this point I am struggling to figure out how to validate anything that he is saying considering that he has assigned me motives that are completely evil and villainous and that I can't comprehend where he could possibly be coming from. Plus I am shutting down under the onslaught of his obvious anger. 

Then as quickly as a light being switched on he puts his head in his hands and starts crying. "I'm sorry, I don't want to fight. I don't understand why you hate communication so much, why I didn't deserve the space I asked for, why you don't understand... ." so I just rubbed his back and quite frankly just tried to figure out what I could say. I think part of what I find baffling is how there is simply no action or apology that gets him out of his loop. AN HOUR AND A HALF because I tried to sit next to him on the couch and we just went around and around and around.

But he did finally invite his son back to the room so that he could continue to talk with him about his school day and I got started on dinner. At one point he came in and asked if he could help and I gave him a job. And then he started in "tell me what I should do I know you hate that my kitchen is dirty!" So I just gave him a hug and asked him why he was assigning that to me. Would you like help organizing your kitchen? And that actually went ok - yes, I'd like some help he finally said. Dinner went ok, we listened to music and shared in some reasonably relaxed conversation. After dinner he told me he needed to lie down - and then he just disappeared for an hour. I finished watching a movie with his son and did some dishes. After the movie finished I woke him up to see if he wanted to go for a walk with his son and I. He got up and then made a big act of almost falling asleep on his feet. So I told him to lie back down. (Seeking sympathy I assume? I know he's been sick but... .it felt contrived.)

Walked for about 20 minutes with his son and he told me "don't worry, he's had bigger fights with me but he always buys me a gift. It will be ok." UGH. I just told him that I was sorry he saw our fight and that none of it was his fault and left it at that. GUILT GUILT GUILT GUILT.

Came home and it was kiddo's bedtime. So now it's the uncomfortable moment where once upon a time I would have stayed over but now nothing feels like our normal pattern and things have been all over the place and I have to decide what to do. We sit on the couch, he opens his laptop and we start watching one of our shows. Then he suddenly puts the laptop down and wraps me up in an enormous hug and says in the saddest voice "I'm so sorry I don't want to fight, can't you see how hard I am trying to make this work? Can't you see how much I want you here? I just don't know what you want from me! I don't know what you need!" So It old him that I need him to tell me THAT more often. And he seemed genuinely shocked. "You mean you don't know?" Then I ended up staying over and... .you get the picture.

So here's the thing. I was thinking about those two statements. "I don't understand what you want from me, and I don't know what you need". They come up frequently in nearly every conversation that we have and certainly in ALL of the heated ones. And I never know 1) how to respond, and 2) what in the hell he is referring to half the time. They are such BIG, loaded, open ended questions. "I don't know what you want from me... ." um, from you when? Are you referring to what do I want from our relationship? From this evening? From this dinner? And same for "I don't know what you need... ." Last night I tried to express that and he was obviously frustrated that I needed clarification.

He does seem to take an extreme amount of responsibility for my "happiness", and then constantly "finds" things that indicate that I'm judging him or unhappy for whatever reason and thus it becomes a self defeating cycle. And I think those questions - what do you want? What do you need? are his effort to get us out of the cycle. He keeps expecting me to have the magical answer of "YOu need to do exactly THIS THING" and then everything will be sunshine and roses.

So - any idea how to better respond to THOSE comments or questions when they come up? Any thoughts on how I could have better responded to the initial raging?


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Grey Kitty
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Relationship status: Separated
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 12:26:54 PM »

Here's where I think it went off the rails!

I went over yesterday for dinner. Because dinner has been such a stressor, I volunteered to bring something to make - he has been sick so that gave me an "in" - "I know you haven't felt well, let me handle dinner... ." I had a sense from his texts that he was already going to be tense. His final text to me "What time are you coming, don't feel like you have to by the way." Ugh yeah. I already knew. And I decided up front that I was going to be prepared to  not take anything personally, not leap to a defensive response, and excuse myself when I felt things were becoming abusive. I also decided to go in with positive energy and a presumption of competence... .although let's face it, that is a HARD thing to do when things have been as constantly tumultuous as they have been lately.

Believe your intuition, believe your gut feelings, believe you read on what's going on with him. And especially believe the cues he gave you.

You knew it was a challenging time for him, and you wanted to support him in a challenging time. That is very kind and dedicated, and I commend you for making the offer anyways (italicized)!

Your gut was warning you that it was gong to be tense after that. (bolded)
You soldiered on, despite this--not such a good idea.

HE warned you it was a bad idea, trying to be gentle about it (also bolded)
You kept coming despite this warning, even though his mood didn't shift.

Not to be too hard on you, but almost nothing was going to keep it from flying off the rails by this time. And certainly if you didn't change things up a lot!

You went in hoping for the best--and that is good. But doing it when you really do know better isn't so good.



Having received that last text, you still had some options to salvage the evening. In your shoes, I'd consider two of them:

1. Is there something here I can validate? Can I ask him a validating question about his feelings? He has clearly shown reluctance to have you over.

He is probably fighting his own dilemma--on one hand, he kinda knows he's gonna blow up at you and he cares about you enough that he doesn't want to do that. On the other hand, he doesn't want to upset you by rejecting your kind offer to cook him dinner. Feeling stuck, and getting more agitated and worried, 'cuz he can feel the trainwreck building but can't figure any way to steer away from it either. (And likely not very aware of half of this, but feeling the fear/anxiety for sure!)

So what would I do to validate here?

First off, I wouldn't do it by text. You lose all the non-verbal assurances of sincerity if you text. I'd probably call him voice if I was going to try this.

I'd probably call him and after any hellos' and sweet nothings that you normally have on the phone, say something acknowledging his feelings. If you don't get anything specific to validate besides the text conversation you already had, I might try one of these: "You sound worried" "You sound stressed" "It sounds like something about dinner is bugging you."

I might also try something like "I offered to make dinner for you so you would feel better. If you would rather be alone tonight, I will understand--I'm trying to make you feel more comfortable, and I'll follow your lead on that."

If you don't feel up to this kind of validation... .or if you try it and it doesn't seem to be having the desired impact... .that leaves you with:

2. Cut your losses. Tell him you've decided to do dinner without him, keeping it short and sweet, and quickly adjust your plan to have an evening away from him.

Knowing that he won't be feeling on-edge the same way forever, and you will have another good time with him. (Heck, he might even text/call you in 20 minutes, regretting that he chased you off, and inviting you over after dinner.)
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Lalathegreat
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Posts: 301


« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 03:57:28 PM »

GK - one thing really strikes me in reading your post. I need to accept that being in this relationship (if I choose to stay) will entail a lot of saving him from himself.

Because you're right - I knew going in that it wasn't going to not go well, but I was soo hoping. Damn hope! Also, I've started 2nd guessing my intuition so much as a result of the things that have happened in this relationship that I've forgotten that in reality I am pretty tuned in to people and their emotions.

These are the 2 things I struggled with  when I briefly considered walking away.

1) When we've had plans that I've cancelled in the past, the accusation of abandonment ALWAYS comes up. I guess that I figured walking away guaranteed that I'd at least have to have THAT argument.

2) He gets extremely agitated when I do anything that makes him think that I'm "asking for permission" as it pertains to plans. He calls it "putting things on HIM." That is I have doubts as to whether I'm welcome that it's my own insecurity and that he wants no part of it. Which I think comes down to the not wanting to reject me directly which I guess is a nice sentiment at least.
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coworkerfriend
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 05:43:37 PM »

Lala - from reading your posts, it sounds like a complete parallel of the life I have been living for the past 7 years with my pwBPD.  He has made identical comments about me putting things on him - he feels completely responsible for my happiness and that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on him.   My pwBPD has been putting it on me for years to have a magical answer to make things better for him - it has been an endless cycle of chasing after the illusive "happiness".  He has gotten upset if I try to leave during an episode - tells me that is the worst thing I can do to our relationship.  I spent a long time in the cycle of him apologizing - not wanting me to leave - wanting to try.  It is exhausting.  He also has a son I am very close to and he is close to my children as well.  We own a business and we have a personal relationship.  So many complicated layers and issues. 

I know exactly how you feel - hoping that things will go well when you know in your gut they probably won't.  I still have hope.  That makes it hard.  We would go for relatively long periods of "normal"  - never lasting more than two weeks before something happens to trigger him.  When he gets triggered, he dumps all his emotions/anger on me.  Everything becomes my fault and my problem to solve for him.  For a long time, I thought he was becoming more self aware, that he was working on his issues in therapy but I recently found out he doesn't tell the truth at therapy.  He has become more depressed and dysregulates regularly since January. 

I wish I had some words of wisdom - I guess if I could give any, it would to learn as much as you can.  I found this forum in 2012 and it has been a lifesaver to me.   
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 06:33:36 PM »

GK - one thing really strikes me in reading your post. I need to accept that being in this relationship (if I choose to stay) will entail a lot of saving him from himself.

I'd say there will be a bit of saving him from himself... .and a bit of letting him step on that !#@$@! rake AGAIN, get his nose broken AGAIN, and not trying to save him from the direct consequences of his actions.

Excerpt
1) When we've had plans that I've cancelled in the past, the accusation of abandonment ALWAYS comes up.
Excerpt
2) He gets extremely agitated when I do anything that makes him think that I'm "asking for permission" as it pertains to plans. He calls it "putting things on HIM."

These are both cases where you have to follow your own moral compass.

You know what you did and why. If I had been in your shoes, and I had bailed on that evening when I suggested you do, I know why I would have done it. (Yeah, it looks a lot clearer in the rear view mirror; I might not have got it right at the time )

I would have bailed because I knew that an evening spent together with a blowup where I had to leave to protect myself from the consequences of the blowup would be bad for me, bad for him, and bad for the relationship.

That said, I wouldn't expect him to understand this. Instead, I'd kinda expect it to be par for the course that he would blame me in some twisted way, putting evil motivations that I wasn't feeling behind my actions.

And you have to let him do that. You can't stop him. You have the option of arguing with him (aka JADEing aka making everything worse!). You have the option of accepting a couple snarky comments or accusations, and getting on with (whatever you were doing with him before it started). And you have the option of deciding that he's gone too far into a critical, mean, berating series of accusations, and that you won't listen to any more of it and you will leave. (until later)

Part of being willing to leave is being willing to keep walking while he accuses you of doing something horrible to him by leaving. If you try to "reasonably address" what he's accusing you of, you lose, he loses, and the relationship loses, because the fight continues, and it won't resolve anything.
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Lalathegreat
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 10:33:52 PM »

Hmm, I'm finding that when I post on my phone, frequently the last paragraph gets cut off. There was another paragraph in my original reply to GK where I explain that if I could go back I would have changed my plans because dealing with the accusations of abandonment would have been a cakewalk over what ultimately ended up happening. And you're right, I need to stop thinking that I can control his assignment of blame - it should be more than clear to me by now that he is going to do that no matter what I do.

I do have a question about leaving. And I know that I have a huge issue with SAYING one thing and then not actually following through where this is concerned. I have told him I was leaving 4 times and the only time I actually did was the time he spit on me. But in looking back, the reason that he got so agitated that he escalated to a physical response was BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY LEAVING. And now that has caused a huge fear response for me. Yesterday when I was putting on my shoes and getting ready to leave I could see him escalating and he was escalating in front of his son. And I didn't feel that I could risk pwBPD becoming physically abusive in front of his son and quite frankly I was frightened of having a repeat. He has essentially said that walking away when he needs to have a conversation is a juvenile, unfair response that he won't tolerate and that if I leave I need to do so knowing that I am leaving for good.

So walk away anyways? Run if I have to? I also think that I have to accept that he could mean what he says and be ok with the idea that the end of the relationship might be the consequence of placing that boundary.



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Sluggo
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 08:34:50 PM »

Excerpt
I have told him I was leaving 4 times

I have heard that using this line more than once is actually a subtle form of manipulation that we are placing on someone.  We use that to get them to do something we want.  I completely understand becuase you want it to stop.     
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formflier
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 09:04:49 PM »

 I hear him excuse himself to his son and he came in and let in to me - the accusation was essentially that by joining them on the couch I was putting my needs over that of his son by demanding his attention.  

Can you give us some word for word about what was actually said here? What does "let into me" mean or look like if I was a fly on the wall.

I think this is where you need to make your stand... when he actually starts verbally going off the rails.  For the odd looks and stuff... .don't react to that.

From what I imagine happened... .here is my advice:  

him: blather blather you always... you never... blather blather.

you:  Oh my (genuine shock and concern)... .listen I'm not able to discuss this with accusations between us.  Can we discuss this further after dinner... .I'm hungry?

(critical that you don't address any issues that he raised inappropriately)  You are not blaming him... .but you are "naming" the issue that is "in the way of the r/s" (the accusations).  Finally, providing a concrete solution (the talk after dinner).

him: blather blather... .never always... .blather

you:  It would mean a lot to me if we could discuss this after dinner, my tummy is rumbling...

him:  blather blather

you:  We can discuss this after dinner or I can leave now.  Which would you prefer.

him: how dare you threaten me... .blather

you:  Enjoy the food.  I need to eat my dinner in peace.  I'll check in with you via phone before I got to bed. (leave)

Of course, if at any point he relents... .make dinner and have a good evening... .don't mention the weird stuff again.

Once you say you are leaving... .GO.

FF
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