Setting Clear Outlines & Eliminating the FOG

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks all for your help and suggestions. I think FF's responses were really helpful regarding the line-by-line text conversation. I do have to stop solving for him. Funny enough, I realized this as I was doing it, but it's a hard habit to break.

I returned home last night, and he was actually out of his room, showered, and on his computer in the middle of the house (around the people he hates -Wow). He acted like nothing had ever happened.

Something has to happen soon though. I need to make a decision for my own sanity. He has proven that he's not willing to put the work in to get a job. He's done anything and everything to avoid the job search. I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

[formflier]

Something has to happen soon though. I need to make a decision for my own sanity.

 He has proven that he's not willing to put the work in to get a job. He's done anything and everything to avoid the job search. I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

Notice what I bolded... .that is stuff that YOU CONTROL... .100%.  Your decisions.  He is affected... .but doesn't get a vote.

Are you ready to "take back your vote"?

I'm going to challenge you to create a new thread and put your letter there.  I love letters!  I've written many... and delivered very few.

The process of writing a letter... .and going through several drafts... .where you keep cutting the letter down... .to focus the message... .is very powerful.

Go through the process... .write what is on your mind... .don't assume you know what you will discover in the process.

Do you think you can write a letter on these board?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

FF - yes, I can write a letter here. I'll give it some thought and do so soon.

[Grey Kitty]

I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

Write it and put the draft up here. Let us review it before you present anything.

I'd suggest you try to write it with one underlying thing in mind to communicate, either: "I need you to do 'X' to support yourself." or "I am unwilling to support you the way I've been doing. I will no longer be paying for 'X'" Consider putting a fixed time deadline into it as well.

There are communication tools to help a pwBPD be more receptive to your message, and we can help with that... .but you have to decide what your line is, and mean it... .or nothing will change; we cannot decide that for you...

[WitzEndWife]

Okay, here's my letter (I don't feel comfortable posting it in a brand new thread):

Dear H,

I wanted to write you a letter because it feels better to communicate this way. I don't forget things, and I can take my time and reflect on the things I want to say.

First, I want you to know how much I love you and how much I appreciate the little things you do for me, like taking care of the cars, and finding cool, fun things for us to to do together. I know that it hasn't been easy these past few months living in a place that's not yours, with people you're not used to living with. It definitely hasn't been easy for me to live so far away from work, or from some of the cool, fun city activities.

I think that both of us would like to be somewhere closer to the city, but I also see an opportunity for us to make the most out of the fact that we do not have the financial burden of living on our own, and pay down debts so that we don't always have to play "catch up" when it comes to finances. That way we can still put money in our pockets while renting an apartment.

Knowing that the current living situation is troubling and depressing to you worries me a lot. As such, I'm looking to cut costs as much as possible so that I can pay down debt as quickly as possible. This isn't easy to do, and I've had to look at our spending pretty closely to see what can be pared down.

1) Groceries. I'll need to keep spending to under $150 weekly. No more big, $300 days.
2) Eating/drinking out. I'll need to limit eating out to a budget of $100 a month.
3) Mobile phones. Our phone bill escalated to up to $300/month while you were driving Uber. I'm going to need to limit our spending here and cut back minutes.
4) Your dental bill. I know that we discussed this moving over to you, and I was the one who lapsed in handing over credentials, but I'd like to move this over to you in two months. It is about $100/month.
5) Clothing and extras. I'm putting a moratorium on new clothes or extra items for the next six months.

It's really important to me to get bills paid down and I am looking forward to your cooperation and support, as my partner, on this.

In the meantime, please know that I am trying my best to do everything I can.

Love,
Me

_______

My first impression after writing this is that it seems disingenuous to what I really feel. I don't want to pay less, or stop paying things, I want him to work. I want him to do something. I don't want him to lie around in bed all day. I feel like I can't ask for that though. Or, even when I have asked for that, even when I've told him that I needed a partner, and that it was important to me to have someone to share the load, he either went into "poor me" victim mode ("I'm worthless," "You should just leave me," etc.), or he agreed with me, promised to look for work, and then shirked his responsibility.

Typical day for him: Sleep until 2PM, get on laptop and read the news and bumble around on Facebook for hours, MAYBE (ambitious day) go for a bike ride for 1-2 hours, spend more time glued to the screen, reading and chatting, MAYBE hand wash the car (again, ambitious day). He might apply to a few jobs one day, and tell me about it, and then a couple of weeks go by and he does nothing.

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.

The problem is that, if I kick him out, if I send him back to Canada, he cannot come back, because he's still awaiting approval for his resident visa, and, without it, he wouldn't be allowed back in the country. So, basically, if I throw him out and want him to stay here, he'll be homeless. If I throw him out and he goes back to Canada, it's over for us. So I can't kick him out unless I'm good and done with this. That's just reality.

[formflier]

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.
 

While this wasn't part of your letter... .I think I have bolded your truth... .your value.  Correct?

You are obviously fond of your hubby... .(yeah... I get it ... stating the obvious)

But... many of us have realized after the fact that lines have been crossed... .and we are incredulous... .because it's so beyond the pale... .that we didn't think it through ahead of time.

And... .perhaps it's behavior that might be tolerated... .or even encouraged... for a few days.  Hey... I've blown off work here and there and been spontaneous... .had fun... .gone for bike ride... whatever.  

But... .when it has been going on for (how long?)... .you realize... looking forward... .that's not going to work for me

It really is that simple.  I also don't want to agree or disagree with you that his job habits (and other habits) should or shouldn't be deal breakers for you.

I do think you should figure that out, before you talk to him further about this

The best chance of getting him back to work, is when you are ready to "bet the relationship on it".  Honestly, that may not work.  Please don't see this as a manipulation... but as a truth.  

Or... perhaps you figure out that you are ok with him lazing around... .then it would be up to you to manage your emotions about his choices.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

Your first draft was good.

I'm going to challenge you to shorten it... .attempt to get rid of half of it... .while conveying the same thoughts.

Then... .your list of issues... .can you redefine that list as problems to solve... .ask him to come alongside you  to share his thoughts... .and problem solve.

"I would like to hear your thoughts on how to get an additional $2k per month to dedicate to a move out fund.  So we can get our own place."

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I think writing this draft of the letter was a good exercise, but there are two problems:

1. The letter should be to address YOUR issues, not HIS issues. (He's supposed to be an adult; he can bring up his own issues and probably will!)

2. You aren't ready to change the situation yet.

You say this:

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.

You say you cannot support him when he won't support himself. You didn't even ask him to pay all his expenses plus some of the shared expenses in the letter.

Then you said this:

The problem is that, if I kick him out, if I send him back to Canada, he cannot come back, because he's still awaiting approval for his resident visa, and, without it, he wouldn't be allowed back in the country. So, basically, if I throw him out and want him to stay here, he'll be homeless. If I throw him out and he goes back to Canada, it's over for us. So I can't kick him out unless I'm good and done with this. That's just reality.

Q1: How long will his resident visa take? (I know there is uncertainty, but you can guess, I hope)

  If you are stop supporting him financially in the US, there is a really good chance that it is done for good, whether he has a resident visa or not... .after you kick him out, he won't be able to get a good US job from Canada, even with the visa, so the only way you can take him back would be if you were willing to support him again anyhow.

What is it that makes you think he is capable of supporting himself financially? Am I remembering correctly that he's never done so in his adult life, or at least not during your relationship?

[WitzEndWife]

I think you're right that I'm not ready. I want to end things, to end the burden, end the stress, end the pain, but I'm not ready to just kick him out.

I did tell him last night that I couldn't handle the financial stress any more. He said that he would start Ubering again, but I said that Uber put wear and tear on the car. He said that he would continue to look for other work simultaneously.

So, we'll see what he decides to do. I know it's not a permanent solution to the problem, and he probably won't follow through on trying to get another job. We'll see.

[formflier]

When he makes an effort... praise and focus him on solutions.

Ask him to do some figuring regarding wear and tear... .versus what he brings in.  He will need to do that anyway to be ready for taxes.

In fact... .it might be a good tax strategy to have him pay you for the miles so that whatever is left is his "true net" income.   

 FF

[WitzEndWife]

In fact... .it might be a good tax strategy to have him pay you for the miles so that whatever is left is his "true net" income.   

 FF

Good idea! I like that.

[Tagurit]

I'm am new to this support community. This has been an excellent thread for me! This sounds so much like what I am dealing with in regard to my BPD 20 year old daughter. I just have to say thank you as I have gained some wisdom by reading this!
With appreciation,
Tagworth

[WitzEndWife]

I'm am new to this support community. This has been an excellent thread for me! This sounds so much like what I am dealing with in regard to my BPD 20 year old daughter. I just have to say thank you as I have gained some wisdom by reading this!
With appreciation,
Tagworth

So glad you're learning from the thread! Sometimes it's helpful just to read through. You get lots of tips and ideas on the best ways to use the tools that way! Welcome!

[WitzEndWife]

Update: Spoke with my therapist last night. She says I need to be clear to him that I want a partner, that I simply cannot continue in the way that we've been doing, and to set some crystal clear expectations, such as:

I need for my partner to not only find, but maintain a job.
I need my partner to take care of themselves, physically and mentally, which includes maintaining a regular schedule of personal hygiene, nourishment, and physical activity, in addition to in-person group therapy (he's doing Skype sessions now, but there are dbt classes in our area that I would like for him to attend).
Treating family members with respect (i.e. eliminating rude comments, being helpful and kind).

These are bare minimum things I need from a partner. If he is unable to follow through on these things, I cannot continue to be in the relationship. 

[formflier]

 
I agree with everything on the list... .I would likely add to the list for "bare minimums"... .

Does your T work with people with PDs... .BPD in particular.  :)oes your T have a PhD?  Years of experience?

Please understand I'm not at all trying to diminish the advice you are getting... . I am trying to clarify if the "method" of delivering the advice was presented to you, discussed... .and you understood the reasons why the "method"  is important.

Reasons:  Communicating with a pwBPD... .especially one that is in a "bad place"... .and/or "lashing out"... .is similar to talking to someone that uses another language.

That person has some command of your language "English", but their "native" language is completely different that yours.  They "think" in their native language... .they "look at the world" through the lens of their native language and when they get stressed out, their ability to use "English" (your native language)... .goes down... .or goes away.

Hopefully this analogy makes sense.

1. List is good
2.  :)elivery matters

Last:  I would never say the world "minimum" to a BPD man.  (sexist FF comment coming... . )  Men (in general) can tend to be minimalists.  Men with BPDish stuff tend to be more extreme in this.

Much better to focus on "taking the next step"... .with the expectation that there will be "another step"... .and then another.  A relationship is a process... .it doesn't really ever end where both parties sit in their hammocks and ignore it.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Yes, my therapist has a PhD. She actually specializes in couples therapy (she actually had a TV show for a while, and has been a consultant for shows like Nancy Grace -which is funny bc that's not how I stumbled upon her). I have been working with her for about four years now.

She was the one who first suggested my H had BPD. She's not a specialist, but she has specialists on her team.

She has told me to heap lots of praise on him for the things he does well, and to frame it up as in, "I want nothing more than for our partnership to work, and for us to have a long, happy marriage." She wants me to focus on my feelings, and offer these things as solutions for how to make the partnership work.

I do realize that presenting all of this at once can be overwhelming for BPDs, but I've also presented small "steps" to him, and he uses that as an excuse to do nothing.

[formflier]

Good... .it sounds like you have someone with the right credentials and experience. 

Also realize... there is not just one way to solve this... .not just "one set" of rules.  The critical thing is that you are consistent with whatever approach your try... .and... .most importantly, whenever you set a boundary... .that you hold it.

  She wants me to focus on my feelings, and offer these things as solutions for how to make the partnership work.

So... I would ask her for her thoughts on you defining the problem and ASKING him how he can contribute to solving it.

"Hey babe, we have a common goal to get a place of our own.  Here are my calculations showing a need of $xx per month to get us ready for this next step after X months.  I'm interested in your thoughts on how you can contribute to this goal."

I would think this treats him more like an adult.  Now... .it may not work.  There is NOTHING any PhD or anyone can devise that would "make it work"... .it's all about "best chances". 

Along with "nuance" of the individual situation.  Perhaps there is something your T believes about you or your hubby that would lead her to push for her recommendation OVER mine.  That would be good information to know

I do realize that presenting all of this at once can be overwhelming for BPDs, but I've also presented small "steps" to him, and he uses that as an excuse to do nothing.

Help me understand the relationship between how much you ask of him and the amount he actually does?

Are you saying that there are times when you ask him for 1 thing... .and get nothing.  Yet if you ask him for 10 things... .you reliably get 2 things from the list?

Just want to be clear.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

He kind of works better if I overwhelm him a little bit. Like you said, if I ask for 10 things, I might get 2. If I ask for one thing (and that is something that I need him to do consistently), he digs in his heels, or "yes"s me and neglects to do it.

I think it's more about choice, or control. So, if I ask him to do something, and his only choice is do it or don't do it, he gets angry because he feels that I'm controlling him. But, if I give a list of things, and he does what he wants out of that list, he has made a choice to do them. It feels more like a compromise to him.

[formflier]

I think it's more about choice, or control. So, if I ask him to do something, and his only choice is do it or don't do it, he gets angry because he feels that I'm controlling him. But, if I give a list of things, and he does what he wants out of that list, he has made a choice to do them. It feels more like a compromise to him.

Which is EXACTLY why I don't like the method your T recommended... .and PRECISELY why I would want YOU to define the problem and let HIM decide how he can help... .

Again... she may have a reason WHY she recommended you do things the way she presented it... .I would want you to have a clear answer from her that you completely understand... .and how you apply her recommendation  Role play and that kind of thing.

You are on the right track.

Back to my idea.  I'm going to stay solid on 1 issue... .finances.  Let HIM decide how many options he wants to put in the mix... .

Last:  Stay open... .this is going to be different for you to let him stammer and stumble around and figure out things... .validate... encourage... ask questions.  Don't solve... .

FF

PS
Last:  There is hope.  My wife was not near as bad as your hubby... .she did work hard at home.  She promised to transition full time to the workforce as "part of a deal" we made to move closer to where she grew up.

Well... .she was underemployed for 1.5 years and for a couple weeks now has been a full time teacher with benefits and all that.  That lasts through the end of this school year.  Now that she is doing it, she likes it and I'm hopeful the job will continue next school year and beyond.

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks FF - I appreciate your help! I'll think through how I can present this to H. I want to make it clear that things cannot continue if he does nothing, but I'll give him options on how to solve the problem.

[formflier]

  I want to make it clear 

Not in the first go round... .or perhaps even the second. 

This is NOT about how we see the letter, it's about how he see's it.

For the letter where you tell him to poop or get off the pot...

https://www.christianbook.com/love-must-tough-hope-marriages-crisis/james-dobson/9781414317458/pd/317458?dv=%7Bdevice%7D&en=google&event=SHOP&kw=family-0-20%7C317458&p=1179710&gclid=CIL-75Kw8NICFYa4wAod0yEPYQ

Is the general idea.

FF