Should we have "KNOWN BETTER" at our age?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi there... .

I was discussing with my best friend the demise of my marriage and how I honestly was sad for the next good, loving, hopeful person that my uBPDw seduces and then tortures.

My friend said that most people "our age" (MIDDLE AGE) aren't going to be bamboozled and will see right through her.

I know my friend means well but really doesn't understand the nuances of  a pwBPD or NPD, the love-bombing phase in particular. But it got me thinking and yes feeling pretty bad that I must have been so desperate and with such low self-esteem, unresolved issues with a NPD mother, etc., to have been susceptible to it BUT ON THE OTHER HAND... .

Did he have a point? Anybody want to weigh in on this?

[michel71]

Hi there... .

I was discussing with my best friend the demise of my marriage and how I honestly was sad for the next good, loving, hopeful person that my uBPDw seduces and then tortures.

My friend said that most people "our age" (MIDDLE AGE) aren't going to be bamboozled and will see right through her.

I know my friend means well but really doesn't understand the nuances of  a pwBPD or NPD, the love-bombing phase in particular. But it got me thinking and yes feeling pretty bad that I must have been so desperate and with such low self-esteem, unresolved issues with a NPD mother, etc., to have been susceptible to it BUT ON THE OTHER HAND... .

Did he have a point? Anybody want to weigh in on this?

[Chaffers]

I feel pretty stupid and should have known better.

Saying that whilst older is wiser, older also means a more experienced BPD adversary. They are rather good at what they do...

[Notwendy]

One common thing I read is - not trusting one's "gut" and going ahead with the relationship.

I have read that we tend to choose people who "match us" in ways and one of them is poor boundaries. Boundaries can be too weak, or too strong. People who do have healthy boundaries tend to not pair up with dysfunctional people- they sense that something is "off" and the relationship doesn't continue.

It is also said that if we do not do the personal work on our part of relationship dysfunction, and we break up, start dating someone else- without doing that work- then we tend to attract people with whom we recreate the dysfunction.

That's a pretty good motivator to do the work- in or out of a relationship.

One idea I read about too strong boundaries. A person who respects boundaries would sense that and not intrude. Someone who doesn't respect boundaries would keep pushing at them. Too weak boundaries would tend to get people enmeshed. Kind of like the Three Bears. You want them just right. We also adjust boundaries according to the relationship- are less open with people we are not familiar with. One sign of weak boundaries is that "instant connection" where someone seems to reveal themselves ( but possibly not really) right away.

People with healthy boundaries tend to take things slow- get to know the person before jumping in to things with both feet. A hallmark of dysfunctional relationships is too much, too fast, too soon.

There are many reasons why people ignore the signs. For several - it is the families we grew up in. If they are dysfunctional then we may feel a certain sense of comfort and familiarity with the dysfunction.

Age may have less to do with this than these factors-

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Michel71, Who knew?  I had never heard of BPD until a T mentioned it some nine years into my marriage, so give yourself a break.  In general, BPD is under the radar.  Maybe some middle-aged folks will see red flags, yet I saw them too and just ignored them.  What did I know?  Nothing about BPD.  Agree w/Notwendy -- I ignored my gut feelings and went ahead with marriage despite my misgivings, something I would never do again.  And I will never be the object of someone's abuse again, either.

LuckyJim

[Roselee]

Michel71, I think that is a VERY generalized statement, that people at a certain age SHOULD KNOW BETTER.  And coming from someone who obviously doesn't understand.  Six years ago, I probably would have thought the same thing.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of us also try to go through life not judging people and their past. I know that's how I was, I know I didn't want to be judged for being divorced, and in my 40's, so I became more open minded, and understanding. Understanding that everyone has a story and a past.  However, this is where my low boundaries came in as well.  My nurturing instincts took over my own boundaries, and by the time I even realized what was happening, I was hooked and committed to helping him and our relationship.  Of course, he never saw it like that... .I was always viewed as not caring for him etc.

I am of course now very much aware of maintaining my boundaries.  I honestly did not know any of this prior. I was raised to do for others first... .self sacrificing was a admirable thing.  Who knew my good intentions would totally send me into the emotional wreck of a being I am trying to break out of and heal from now.

We naturally tend to go thru life thinking and hoping for the good in our partners. Once we are attached to them, our caring goes into full gear to help them, and maybe look to see if unintentionally we did something wrong as well... .again low boundaries. There is no age limit with this.  I never in my life would I think I would have put up with and endured all the abuse I did. NEVER! I preached and taught my own daughters so differently from what I myself was actually going through. Very surreal feeling!

Losing oneself to another's abuse has no age limit!  And often no immediate warning.

[Skip]

One common thing I read is - not trusting one's "gut" and going ahead with the relationship.

I read this statement often and I'm not sure this is a solution.

I would argue that for many "trusting our gut" or trusting our instincts, (trusting our heart) is what took us into the relationship. Many of us had a heart that was needy, vulnerable, or hopeful for the relationship that we feel into.

I've also read on the ":)ating" board about many people who back away from new relationships because they are "trusting their gut". I think, in much the same way, many of us have a fearful heart after a relationship like this and can be too critical or demanding of new love interests.


that most partners "went with their heart"

[Notwendy]

Maybe I should clarify " trusting one's gut" to read ignoring red flags. I think that for some, the red flags were there ( maybe not obvious- but signs of them) but we didn't see them or we ignored them --- maybe because of feeling needy or lonely, or just flattered by idealization. There can be a certain uneasiness when someone seems to be too good to be true, which is also very enticing.

The reference to too strong boundaries can apply to after a relationship - being too mistrusting, seeing everything as a red flag. Yet, it is possible that we don't trust our own ability to make a good choice either.

In either case, I think too much, too soon, too fast can lead to potential problems. Serious red flags will show themselves in time. As for being too mistrusting- minor issues can seem to be less of a problem if general compatibility is there. Bigger issues will not be easily resolved and the pattern- push -pull will likely repeat itself if it is there.

[formflier]

Knowing what I know now... .I can see red flags earlier.  I figured that everyone is different and it was obvious to me even when my wife and I were dating that she was by far the most reasonable of her family.  First one to go to college, she would talk openly about dysfunctional things and how she wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing.

I tend to fall pretty far out on the "reason" side of things... .and fancy myself to be able to let my "thinking" overtake my "heart".  I assumed she could as well.

Sadly... .I appear to have been mistaken.

There are things about my parents relationship that I chose to not replicate.  Honestly, I don't think they were dysfunctional, I just wanted different choices.  Certainly now I still struggle with some blame of my parents for raising me to be a wife pleaser... .happy wife... happy life.  It worked for my Dad... .not so much for me.

I know that blame is unfair... .but it's there. 

I think the big thing is that we do now know better.  We understand healthy.  We are NOT responsible for our partners understanding. 

So... .when I have a choice... .I try to be deliberate about "turning towards healthy".

Great thread... .good discussion... .keep it up.

FF

[michel71]

Wow... .super good replies! Thank you for all the terrific insight. I think that trusting one's "gut" is different than following your heart... .at least by my understanding of how the two terms are generally used. The "gut", as I understood it, refers to those deep down alarm bells, that nagging feeling that has nothing to do with your heart at all; in fact, it is opposite to the heart in cases when the bells start a ringing.
I think people generally know the distinction but one could argue that with people like myself that have grown up in dysfunctional families, trusting the "gut" could be flawed as well. I dunno.
It is good to know that other people of my general age have been blind sighted by the whole BPD thing. I agree with Lucky Jim... .it is underrated or not talked about much. I wish it was on the radar more. It should be because it is very serious and can be very damaging.

[formflier]

I do think that whatever your "gut" is telling you should be "evaluated"... ."listened to" and "understood".

You can decide to follow it... .or decide to listen to the gut... .but make a different decision.

Very different than "ignoring" your gut... or "going with it". 

As life unfolds your "gut" is one bit of information (an important bit) that you use to make decisions.

At least... .this is how I see it. 


I too wish there was more awareness of BPD or "how to deal" with people like that.  I was responsible for a lot of dysfunction in our relationship because what I thought was helping, was actually "feeding the monster".  I had many people I respected advising me to take the course of action I did... .basically to love my wife more... .give in... .understand her... .giver her space... ."let this one go"... .

Once I read SWOE... .I was flabbergasted that others led the crazy life that I live(d).  It is better... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I think for many of us, we had no idea of the influence of our own upbringing on choosing, being chosen, and relating to a romantic partner.

I knew my FOO was seriously disordered (BPDmom) and did a lot of work to not be dysfunctional. But our choosing and being chosen isn't always something we are conscious of.

For me, co-dependency was my normal. From one of my earliest dating experiences, I felt a different kind of caring. Someone liked me for me. With my parents, their love seemed contingent on how I made them feel- I had to behave, comply, walk on eggshells. Someone actually liked me- as I was- just me. In the grand scheme of things, this was one brief puppy love, long forgotten, but I recall being just overwhelmed by the idea that someone actually liked me.

So, I did long for something that was different than what I experienced growing up. I knew what I didn't want, but "not my mother" leaves a whole lot of other issues out there that I didn't know to recognize because I had no idea of what "normal" was.

Although I post on a few boards, my status is not undecided. It is committed. I think overall, there is way more good in my marriage than difficult. However, I did choose someone who matched my own dysfunction and like FF, our dual issues made things worse.

Were there signs? Yes, but I tended to discount them. One reason is that this is how we were expected to deal with my mother. My mother could be amazing and then snap and dysregulate. There was always a "reason" and that reason was often to blame me. So I believed that, if I could only comply more, do more for her, be the person she wanted me to be, that she would love me. When this same phenomenon showed up when dating my H, there was always a reason- stress from work, or something I did, said, or didn't do. I believed it. How could I not believe it? I was taught to. But during these times, I was feeling hurt. I confused this with love.

I am older, wiser, and know better. I have no plans to be single. I sometimes wonder if I did find myself single, would I trust my feelings or my gut? I am aware that my feelings may lead me into dysfunction. It isn't that I would be critical or mistrusting of someone else- but more like unsure of my own ability to see red flags and who I am attracted to.

[Skip]

The "gut", as I understood it, refers to those deep down alarm bells, that nagging feeling... .

What I read is that many members gut instinct was to "go with it" - even in the light of increasing questionable behavior they went all in - even when the relationship was tanking, the instincts were to save the relationship. We have many threads of members gut instincts driving them to resuscitate a relationship that is wreaked with betrayal and disrespect.

Many may, in retrospect, refer back to "signs" that indicated problems ahead that they ignored (red flags) and this is often tied to a "trust your gut statement" but that prescription seems like too little, too late and more of the same that got them in the last relationship.

Many would have been better served not to ride the wave of emotion and attraction, or conversely, not to be fearful and suspicious (as many are post "BPD relations), but to be more in "WiseMind" - a balanced state where we do the work to rationalize our emotional drivers and intellectual observations.

[formflier]

Great thread... !

  even when the relationship was tanking, the instincts were to save the relationship.

This was me.  I still feel this "tug" inside me often.  I (erroneously) believed that if I was smart enough, prayed enough, tried enough that my marriage could be saved... .single-handedly.  Now I understand that many of my herculean efforts... .were counterproductive.

It feels weird to say that putting less effort into my r/s has been good for me and the r/s... and I would argue good for my wife as well.  (although she would likely offer a different opinion).

I'm committed to making my relationship work... .however... .I'm undecided (perhaps unsure is better) if it actually will work.  Only so much is up to me.

FOOs have such a huge impact.  I'll never know for sure how much disagreement and/or dysfunction was in my FOO... .if it was there, it was well hidden.  There are no divorces in my FOO.  None.  I've traced back the branches 3-4 generations.  We were taught to work things out. 

I am aware that my great grandfather didn't cry at his wife's funeral.  Died of natural causes in her 80s... .he went on to his 90s.  The story has been told me that the only time he was seen to cry was when my Dad found some money and papers in a barn that was from my great-grandfathers bank that failed in the depression.  The story is that he sat on the porch crying "for the rest of the afternoon" and told my Dad to put the papers back... that my Great Grandfather didn't want to see them anymore.

I never met my Great Grandfather, but I feel like I know him from the reverence that my father speaks of him with and the great detail of the many stories I've been told.

Compare that to my wife's FOO.  There are a bunch of cousins that are peers of my wife.  Let's say about 10 relationships (marriages) there only three are still intact.  The generation above them (brothers and sisters of my Mother in Law) there are no divorces but it would appear that all women are BPDish and the husbands were very distant or compliant.  In her immediate family her sister has been divorced three times (perhaps more if rumors are true) and brother divorced once and is unlikely to ever get married again.  He is kind of a recluse from the family, lives 13 hours away.

Of the remaining three marriages I believe my marriage is the most stable. 

So... .I believe I have a better understanding of what I face.  I'll be sad if my marriage doesn't work out, but I'm confident life will go on.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

It feels weird to say that putting less effort into my r/s has been good for me and the r/s... and I would argue good for my wife as well.  (although she would likely offer a different opinion).

Agree w/that, FF.  You could say that it's about shifting the focus back to oneself, rather than to care-taking the pwBPD, which is a much healthier dynamic in my view.

LJ

[allienoah]

Should I have known better? I am 54, own a home, have a good job, 2 great kids and great friendships. And still here I am, completely undecided, though being pushed and pushed by my loved ones, about whether or not to stay. I have come to grips that I needed the "love-bombing" and feel into a pattern of not establishing nor adhering to boundaries. I am working hard not to JADE. I am trying to work on my own sense of self that got completely lost in my r/s with my bfwBPD.
As others have said here, I learned at an early age that the only way I was to get positive feelings from my FOO was to be the "good girl"-got great grades, was active in the community and church, never smoked, did drugs, no boyfriends-I was the nerd. And you know what? I wish I could go back and tell that girl that it is OK to be yourself. But here I find myself, attaching my self worth to a person, who I know deep down loves me, but who also emotionally and verbally abuses me. I admire those who could just turn on their heels and walk away.
We are all a product of how we grew up. Know better? Life would be so much easier if we all did know better. Some of us are just better at trusting our gut than others.

[Lucky Jim]

allienoah, It still is OK to be yourself.  What's not OK, in my view, is allowing oneself to be the object of verbal and emotional abuse, which is unacceptable.  That's my boundary.  I think we all deserve better.

LuckyJim

[Meili]

Ah, the old "trust your gut... ."

There's an inherent problem with that train of thought. People tend to attract, be attracted to, and get involved with (on whatever level) others who have a like level of emotional maturity. I was very emotionally immature when I got involved with the woman who brought me here.

Because of my emotional immaturity, my "gut" was not able to be any more mature than the emotions that govern it. Sure, the   were there, but I didn't care. I saw them for what they were, I just wasn't emotionally mature enough to care.

My emotional immaturity allowed me to be rash and impulsive without thinking of what my actions meant for my future. I was having fun, and that's what mattered. It was all such a rush, and that rush made me feel great. Yep, I knew that I would feel bad later, but that didn't matter. All that mattered was that moment.

It was that emotional immaturity that also led to things like JADE'ing and invalidating. I was so focused on myself and what was happening in that moment that I didn't slow down to think about how it might effect my future with her. I followed my impulses here as well.

I think that what we all need to do, rather than just "trusting our gut" is take a good, long, hard look at ourselves and figure out where we are on an emotional maturity scale. Sure, chronologically I was middle-aged when I met her, but emotionally, I was still a young child in many ways... .and so was my "gut."

[PeteWitsend]

I was 32 when I met my wife, and am one of those here who "ignored red flags/gut instincts."     

I guess saying "I ignored them" is less accurate than saying "I recognized them and made excuses for them."

I told myself she acted the way she did because was in a bad place & stressed out by her current situation in life, rather than recognizing that she was responsible for getting into that place, and her actions and temperment would not change simply because I helped her resolve some of the negative aspects of her situation by paying debts off and providing a nice place to live while she completed her professional licensing and job search.

I've thought about whether I would make the same mistake again; I don't know, although I suspect I would be more cautious.  I wouldn't look for excuses when troubled by another person's behavior, and I wouldn't shy away from being more up front with my concerns with them.  I also wouldn't rush into a relationship again, like I did with my current uBPD wife.

I've recognized some of the reasons I tolerated it and indeed eventually proposed to her were my own issues, not hers.  And one of the things I learned is to not table issues that are important to me until later & and to be more up front with my own feelings and concerns.

[PeteWitsend]

yep, meili, you hit the nail on the head with the comment on emotional maturity.

I recognize that I wasn't forced into marriage at gunpoint, and I bear a large degree of responsibility for looking past behavior that I found very upsetting at the time.

Had I known what I was dealing with and enforced boundaries and not tried to JADE during circular arguments with her, I probably would've ended up walking away from the relationship.  or running away when she blew up and went sideways over my attempts at boundary enforcement.  But I told myself it was just this, that, and the other thing, and once she felt more comfortable in our relationship and her career, it would be better... .

[Meili]

Had I known what I was dealing with and enforced boundaries and not tried to JADE during circular arguments with her, I probably would've ended up walking away from the relationship.  or running away

Now, see, I'm just the opposite. Had I known better, I feel that I could have had a different outcome if I had actually liked her. My x has as many good points as bad when it comes to her personality. I just wasn't equipped to deal with all of it in a manner that the relationship and she needed.

If I had it all to do over would I given all that I know now? Probably. There are things about her that I miss dearly. Those things have nothing to do with BPD traits.

I'm at a much better place in my life than I have ever been. I still have a long way to go, but I'm far better equipped to handle adult situations now than I was before. I feel that I could deal with her outbursts in a manner that would be healthier and far more productive for us both.

The funny thing is that because I'm emotionally maturing, I'm not someone that she would want to be around anymore. We are no longer compatible in her view based on what I know.

The disorder doesn't scare me any more than a physical disability would scare me away from a partner. The difference for me now is that I no longer feel the need to compel or rescue anyone.

[Lucky Jim]

Had I known what I was dealing with and enforced boundaries and not tried to JADE during circular arguments with her, I probably would've ended up walking away from the relationship.  or running away when she blew up and went sideways over my attempts at boundary enforcement.  But I told myself it was just this, that, and the other thing, and once she felt more comfortable in our relationship and her career, it would be better... .

Right, PeteWitsend.  Like you, I told myself that it would get better and that we would attain an emotional plateau of relative stability in our marriage.  Yet that proved to be a mirage, because we never reached that place in our r/s.  The turmoil continued and even grew in its intensity.  Part of my recovery process has been figuring out why I stayed when someone else would have run away.

LuckyJim

[Meili]

Part of my recovery process has been figuring out why I stayed when someone else would have run away.

I think that this is what we all need to look at regardless of whether or not we are trying to stay/improve the relationship or detach from it.

[allienoah]

Meili you are so correct... My logical brain tells me not to stay. My friends and family tell me not to stay. I have come to realize that the issue here is me and what I am willing to tolerate. It has driven me to a place where I am very depressed and feel like my hands are tied either way. I do love my bf. I just don't love his behavior. I love my family, and feel betrayed by them when in reality, they are just enforcing their own personal boundaries and trying to protect me. So the question here really boils down to me. Do I want to continue to learn not to JADE, to validate more, honor myself more, not let his feelings be my responsibility or just deal with this horrible void I will feel when he's gone?

[Meili]

Either way, allienoah, the "why" behind all of it is going to come into play and be an important part of your future.

[Breathe066]

I think it is important to keep in mind that it is very difficult to know anything much less to "know better" when you are in the early stages because falling in love with someone with BPD looks just like falling in love with anyone else--just better. It's so romantic and passionate and validating and wow, for the first time it really feels like you can trust someone and it's everything you ever wanted. How on earth can anyone know better under those conditions?
Today has been the hardest day yet since my husband, who has BPD left. I don't really understand why he feels the need to tell me over and over again that it would be impossible for us to reconcile. I texted him this morning and said I'd paid the vet bill and there was no need for him to remain on the account if he didn't want to do so and his response was "The way we are now, it would be impossible to reconcile. It really hurts. Be good to yourself."
Two hours later, he basically texted the same thing again, unprompted.
I am completely devastated by our separation. I feel excruciatingly tired. Just so incredibly tired and I can't stop crying. I know it's not healthy to hold onto hope and try to imagine it's not over, but if I am just minding my own business or trying to be civil and handle practical matters, why is he saying "It would be impossible to reconcile." If we both know that, why contact me just to say it? I feel like he is kicking me when I am down.
I am middle aged. Should I be stronger and wiser? Should I know better than to keep breaking down in tears?  Of course not. I love him. This might even be more unbearable at my age than it would have been 20 years ago.

[allienoah]

@breathe066- I am so sorry you are feeling so terrible today. I have been there too. During an extended breakup last year with my bfwBPD, he felt the need to reach out on occasion to solidify why he would never come back to me and how "bad" I was. I had told him I would love to have him move in with me back in the early days. Then as his behavior revealed his BPD, I put that on the shelf. I am now forever a "liar" no matter how good things are going with us. I think it is more unbearable at "middle aged" because people seem to think we "know" what we want. That we are wiser and able to see through people better. I truly wish I had the recovery skills and strong boundaries that my 24 year old D has! But allow yourself to cry, be sad, and be strong.