Does therapy ever work if not the borderline's idea?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I can see how 'you go to counseling or else' demands don't work. But does DBT or other therapy work if it's suggested multiple times to a possible BPD? Or only if they come upon it themselves? I'm trying to decide if I should ask one more time or bail.

Married 10 years, 3 kids under 8. Wife has many of the borderline traits- no close friends, rapid mood swings, splitting, daily exhaustion, extreme unpredictable reactions to everyday life. Hates kissing, most touching, sexual activity. Has been physically abusive, verbally abusive weekly to me. When talking about any any angry incident she has never apologized. Not once. I've thought I was going crazy based on some things that have happened... .but it sounds like this is a normal response to being told things that happened, didn't happen, or they were my fault.

Any sort of invalidation causes a rise in emotional response, even if just a kid doing normal kid badgering- gets responses of  'stop it stop it!' Or 'stop crying'. Invalidates the kids constantly.  Was very warm in the beginning but after first kid born the warmth evaporated. No physical or emotional intimacy; everything I've ever tried, including counseling for couples and for myself, has not really helped. To her, counseling was just a way for me to throw her under the bus.

She can flip back and be loving to the kids and normal 'mommy mode' - but there is no telling which will happen. Things can be fine for 2 weeks then really rough for 2 weeks.

I can see the warning signs going back to the week we met.

I feel like I've finally accepted where things are at... .but because of the kids ages don't want to give up until that's the last choice (which maybe it is). I am the kids primary nurturer; she's there for the 'fun' times.

Any thoughts?  Wow, writing this makes me think I know the answer to my question... .Thanks for any thoughts. Reading this message board has been very helpful.

[ODROG]

I can see how 'you go to counseling or else' demands don't work. But does DBT or other therapy work if it's suggested multiple times to a possible BPD? Or only if they come upon it themselves? I'm trying to decide if I should ask one more time or bail.

Married 10 years, 3 kids under 8. Wife has many of the borderline traits- no close friends, rapid mood swings, splitting, daily exhaustion, extreme unpredictable reactions to everyday life. Hates kissing, most touching, sexual activity. Has been physically abusive, verbally abusive weekly to me. When talking about any any angry incident she has never apologized. Not once. I've thought I was going crazy based on some things that have happened... .but it sounds like this is a normal response to being told things that happened, didn't happen, or they were my fault.

Any sort of invalidation causes a rise in emotional response, even if just a kid doing normal kid badgering- gets responses of  'stop it stop it!' Or 'stop crying'. Invalidates the kids constantly.  Was very warm in the beginning but after first kid born the warmth evaporated. No physical or emotional intimacy; everything I've ever tried, including counseling for couples and for myself, has not really helped. To her, counseling was just a way for me to throw her under the bus.

She can flip back and be loving to the kids and normal 'mommy mode' - but there is no telling which will happen. Things can be fine for 2 weeks then really rough for 2 weeks.

I can see the warning signs going back to the week we met.

I feel like I've finally accepted where things are at... .but because of the kids ages don't want to give up until that's the last choice (which maybe it is). I am the kids primary nurturer; she's there for the 'fun' times.

Any thoughts?  Wow, writing this makes me think I know the answer to my question... .Thanks for any thoughts. Reading this message board has been very helpful.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey ODROG, Welcome!

To her, counseling was just a way for me to throw her under the bus.

Right, those w/BPD tend to be quite reluctant to pursue therapy or, if they participate at all, it is usually a short-lived proposition.  In part, it may be because therapy involves taking responsibility for one's own actions, which is a scary proposition for a pwBPD.  To admit to one's shortcomings is largely unthinkable for a pwBPD, because it would require painting him/herself black, which is unlikely to happen.

LJ

[Duped 1]

Exactly what LJ said. She only went to blame me for everything and tried to lie to the counselor but I wouldn't allow it. The counselor understood very well what was happening. I was there to genuinely improve. She was there to blame and point fingers

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi ODROG,

They say that every person in this world has a doppelgänger and reading your post honestly  scared me by our identical situations. Ten years, 3 children under 8, etc etc etc... .honestly scary. I feel for you because I know I've had a hell of a ride as I am sure you have too.

I don't know about you but I realize that I haven't pulled out of the relationship yet because of the kids. And because for some reason I hadn't learned to love myself or let my anger out. Through 3 years of psychotherapy with a great person I have built my confidence to the point that I am realizing just how much I swallowed and lost touch with loving myself and I'm coming to be okay with my anger and realizing it is okay to express it appropriately to my wife with BPD. Have you been to therapy yourself to understand why you're still allowing yourself in to be treated the way your wife does?

I ask this because it has taken me 3 years but the experience has been worth every dime and has built me up to the point where I told my wife "I'm done with this s***, I don't deserve it, the kids don't deserve, I care a lot about you but you need to take responsibility for yourself." I gave my wife the ultimatum that she could finally go to couples therapy with me and work on herself or I was out. Then I took two weeks unpaid leave and left. I don't know if that is the correct method or not, but you deserve to say it and do it for yourself. It was really hard and the two weeks away from my kids were really hard. But you deserve it. My wife then did get us into therapy and is seeing someone on her own. We're in the midst of it all now.

So back to your initial question, does therapy work? I guess I would answer you with another question, what do you mean does it work? Are you referring to your wife all of sudden becoming "normal"? Trust me that I have held onto this hope for years but you're hoping for her to change. I know this is really hard to accept, I still fall into the trap too, but you can't expect her to change. You need to concentrate on yourself and your kids, and making sure you are all fine first. Then if your wife wants to come along for the joyride she needs to get her s*** in gear too. Then if you so desire, you can be there for her and help her as she works on herself. But she needs to want it and what she needs is wholly different from what you might be hoping for... .don't delude yourself. Then if she does get her act together you can decide whether or not she deserves to be part of the family unit or a separate and loving responsible mother.

In the end, that is what matters most, that she is able to become a fit parent for your kids and healthy person for herself.

I really wish you the best in it all... .and I hope you are stronger than me. It can really bring me down sometimes and trying to look out for 3 kids at the same time is a daunting task... .and absolutely worth it!

Truly good luck and you can endure!

[formflier]

*Welcome*

I'm glad you found us.  I think bpdfamily can help you learn tools to help smooth out the swings in your relationship.

Even if your wife doesn't agree or want to participate!  (more on this later if you are interested)


To the question of therapy.

I come from a school of thought that says anytime you can get in a room with a professional and work on communication... .that's a good thing.

I also believe and understand that couples therapy with a pwBPD is often not productive.  Yet I still think we should go and if the pwBPD comes along... .even better.

I would stay away from thinking that counseling is a "fix" or will "make them see the light" etc etc.  Perhaps they take responsibility for their actions... perhaps they don't.  The important thing is that you take responsibility for yours AND NOT THEIRS

That can create an uncomfortable situation.  Acknowledge that and let them solve it... .or the counselor.  Don't rescue them from distress... .especially if they cause it.

Last... .how you ask them to go matters.  If you have been "suggesting" it many times.  STOP.  Let's talk for a while about a more productive approach.  Keeping on asking or suggesting is like pouring fuel on a fire.

Again... glad you are here... .and I look forward to helping you.

FF

[ODROG]

Last... .how you ask them to go matters.  If you have been "suggesting" it many times.  STOP.  Let's talk for a while about a more productive approach.  Keeping on asking or suggesting is like pouring fuel on a fire.

Again... glad you are here... .and I look forward to helping you.

FF

Thanks all for the comments. How would you suggest go about therapy requests?
I've asked nicely. I've demanded. I've tried to explain how things have impacted me and the kids. (This is over multiple years). I succeeded in getting 2 rounds but nothing past that.

And really, part of me- maybe most- is just done with a relationship that has no physical or emotional intimacy and has no hope of ever being better unless something changes. And nothing has and won't without me taking some sort of action (which would include leaving). I've stayed because I've thought it was better for my kids to see me every day but lately I've pretty much decided that isn't actually the best - if I feel like my life is unhappy staying in this relationship (unless it improves). I have been and am going to therapy myself (by myself). I feel ok about me, my chances for a normal future relationship etc. I mainly don't want to bail if staying dramically helps my kids lives while not hurting mine.

[ODROG]

I'll also add my biggest 'learning' from therapy was 'why do you want to stay in this relationship as it pertains to you, not your kids
' - once the therapist said I couldn't use the kids as a reason, I had none.

[Lucky Jim]

I'll also add my biggest 'learning' from therapy was 'why do you want to stay in this relationship as it pertains to you, not your kids
' - once the therapist said I couldn't use the kids as a reason, I had none.

Thanks, ODROG, for relating this exchange with your therapist, which I find insightful.  It reminds me of a conversation with my T.  She asked me: ":)o you think you've tried everything to save your marriage?"  I said, "Yes, I think I have."  She said, "I think so, too."  It was one of those lightbulb moments for me,  because my T rarely shared her personal opinions.

LuckyJim

[ACObound]

My experience was exactly as described by LJ... .almost to the letter... .including the part of the T(my T) sharing her opinion.   Trust your gut.

[formflier]

  How would you suggest go about therapy requests?
I've asked nicely. I've demanded. I've tried to explain how things have impacted me and the kids. (This is over multiple years). I succeeded in getting 2 rounds but nothing past that.

I'm going to dodge the question a bit, while I get more info. 

It appears he has gone to 2 different therapists.  Correct?  How long with each?  What was this?  Couples T?

Family T?

What was said that got him there?  What was said that ended it?  (perhaps it was more than something said).  From his perspective... why did he go and why did he stop.

Has he ever done individual T.

My general advice will center around inviting him with you to T... .and then you go with or without him.  However... .very general advice.  The details matter.  No nagging... .ask properly and go.

  unless something changes. 

And it appears you are changing the r/s... which is changing his role... somewhat.  I would encourage you to make all the change you can control (which is a lot!) and then see what you think of the r/s then.

Again... I'll need more details to figure out where you are in that process... .but it's obvious it has started.

FF