RO Hearing next week, what is evidence of emotional abuse?

[Crushedbyac]

Im getting anxious about the RO hearing next week.  I dont have any hard evidence to present.  How do you show that you are terrified of contact with the xBPD or that they dont leave you alone, constantly bombing you with nice until you give in and then its false accusations, name calling, and non-physical threats (to contact family and "tell them the truth" or legal actions on the fake beliefs) until you break down and have paralyzing anxiety every time the phone blinks there is a message (no matter who its from).  How do you 'prove' that?  I just want him to leave me alone and move on.  I want to heal.

[flourdust]

Do you have texts? Emails? A journal? Witnesses?

[Crushedbyac]

not really.  My xBPD is quite high functioning and very careful to not put things in writing or expose himself in public.  Abuse was always in private settings, mostly verbal.  I also have had a habit in the past (and still do for normal things) of keeping a very clean and concise inbox.  That is I delete anything I dont need. I have things Ive written, not a journal per se but when I get overwhelmed I do write it out to get it out of my head.  These writings are quite long though, Im not sure the judge would want to go through all of that, plus my ramblings, but I could bring them.  Im trying to get a letter from my family dr about the change in my recent mental state leading up to the RO.  She has been my Dr for over 20 years and can attest that Im not prone to breakdowns or asking for meds just to function.  Im also going to ask my therapist to write a letter too.  Like I said, how do you 'prove' private emotional abuse or that I am terrified of the idea of the RO not being made permanent.  He is beyond angry and that would be vindicating to him and embolden him more!

[Aiming4Kindness]

I recently got an RO against my ex-fiancee.

Ingredients my lawyer used:
- My documentation/recollection of incidents when she threatened to harm me
- Photographs I took of a window she shattered when she was angry
- Detailed writings from me that documented bizarre/abnormal behaviors over the course of a year

If you know how your ex will respond/defend herself to any allegations, you may want to add that.  I did no in my declaration, and it was effective.  Example: " I anticipate that Respondent will allege that she was simply “_________________” which is an impossibility, because ________________.


If you don't have documentation now, remember that it's never too late to start taking good notes.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

I am terrified of the idea of the RO not being made permanent. 

I am sorry you are going through this, Crushedbyac.  Sounds horrible.  I am guessing from your post that you have a temporary RO. What documentation did you have to get this?  Was something different required for a temporary RO?  Can you recreate/add to the evidence you already had?

I recently got an RO against my ex-fiancee.   my lawyer used:
- My documentation/recollection of incidents when she threatened to harm me
- Detailed writings from me that documented bizarre/abnormal behaviors over the course of a year

Seems like you could still write those up between now and the hearing.  Take the time and go for it.  If you don't need it, then no harm, no foul.  Or maybe make photocopies of your journal pages and use a highlighter on the parts the judge would most need to see/read. 

Lastly, IF for some reason you don't get a permanent RO, take heart.  Get Gavin de Becker's book, "The Gift of Fear," to give you a different perspective on all this.  ROs can definitely work but don't always.  Take a look at what he has to say and know that not getting it may not be all bad.  Indeed, you might want to look at this before the hearing. 

I don't know your situation at all so don't begin to know what is best for you.  I do know that this book helped me keep my focus and sanity during ten solid months of being stalked by my exBPDbf (which is not to equate our situations). 

Hang in there.  You can do this!

XOXO
RML

[flourdust]

I have things Ive written, not a journal per se but when I get overwhelmed I do write it out to get it out of my head.  These writings are quite long though, Im not sure the judge would want to go through all of that, plus my ramblings, but I could bring them.

Do bring them. Write up a cover sheet that summarizes your writings, organized by date and event. (Example: 4/12/16: Screamed at me for three hours, called me names, threatened to ... .) The judge will likely read your cover sheet and may skim the underlying documents.

Im trying to get a letter from my family dr about the change in my recent mental state leading up to the RO.  She has been my Dr for over 20 years and can attest that Im not prone to breakdowns or asking for meds just to function.  Im also going to ask my therapist to write a letter too.

These are excellent -- especially if they can report that you have discussed the abuse over a period of time with them. That's corroborating evidence.

It may be too late now, but you could order a small voice-activated recorder off amazon.com to keep on your person and record any conversations.

[Chili P]

I kept a journal over the years hidden in my bookshelf it helped me stay sane and know that I was not experiencing normal behavior. I also noted when he would repeatedly call (16-20 times within a few hours) or text/ email. I'd copy and paste into word.

[Crushedbyac]

Thank you all for the great suggestions. yes the regret now of being ocd about deleting stuff. It never occurred to me I might need them someday, I never thought it could come to this.  Summarizing my lengthy notes and planning what I need to say, concisely, is a good idea and something I can work on this weekend. part of the anxiety is not knowing which person he will be.  Im assuming angry, but he could be having one of the rare lucid days.  And with the RO and NC (obviously) there is no way to gage it.  I just have to be prepared to speak to me and not worry about what he will say.  I know this, but its hard to not worry.

[flourdust]

FYI, if you use Gmail, you may have deleted the messages from your desktop client, but they're probably still retrievable from the website.

[livednlearned]

Im getting anxious about the RO hearing next week.  I dont have any hard evidence to present. 

Domestic violence shelters will sometimes have a DV advocate who can look at what you have and even appear with you. They may be able to tell you, too, about the judge and whether or not the RO as it stands has a chance or not based on past rulings.

One thing I learned about ROs is that you still have to be the one to enforce them. Meaning, if he violates the RO, you will need to call the police and enforce the boundary. If your ex violates the RO and you do not enforce it, then the RO simply becomes a piece of paper.

What are some of the things he is doing to emotionally abuse you? Does he appear in person unexpected at your work place, for example? Or at your house?

[Crushedbyac]

he has never shown up unexpectedly, that I know of. The emotional abuse is mostly verbal rages of false accusations, horrible name calling and urgent demands of proof, followed by rages about why any proof I produce is all fake and lies, and then come the threats that if I dont 'come clean and stop lying' or if I cut off contact in any way ('you better answer my calls if you know what is good for you' he will have to contact my friends and family and tell them about my 'disgusting lifestyle' (that are his completely untrue false beliefs).  He often threatens to have me followed, investigated by his PI, sued, thrown in jail, and deposed in other cases he is supposedly pursuing (other people that are 'out to get him' and goes into great detail about all the evidence his PI has on me and he can 'ruin' me anytime he likes.  (he cant have stuff on me because I havent done anything, at all, ever.)  BUT I do think he is capable and often willing (when in his other world) to create fake 'evidence' via photoshop etc... .and that scares the crap out of me because now I have to defend against that?  These verbal rages are all very intense and fast moving.  They are alarming and I often lose my composure in many ways (but I never degrade, only try to defend myself, although pointless I know).  Ive tried to detach peacefully for the past 4 months when he finally pushed me into a nervous breakdown over his accusations and rages.  But he always comes back contrite and plays nice for a bit then starts in again.  I have had to get more direct and draw stricter boundaries with each attempt to detach.  Each time I try to pull away with stronger limits, the rages, delusions, and threats increase proportionally, so Im sure this RO has him in full revenge mode and I truly do not know to what lengths he may go if pushed away hard enough (which I think this qualifies for).  The current delusion and threats of legal action have been on going since mid-feb and get more detailed daily (at least they did before the temp RO, now I dont know).  Either way, he terrifies me.

[ForeverDad]

I just want him to leave me alone.

You have no relationship now, right?  No children together, right?  Not business partners, right?  Then he should have complied with your request to end all contact.

Does he have a history of pursuing ended relationships?  Have other women filed for protection from him?  You might invest a little time into verifying whether he has a legal history of such complaints.

Often a court will side with the woman to grant at least some protection for a while.  No judge wants to read on the front page about a claimant who was denied.

Even if the court doesn't grant your "no contact" RO, you can go right back to court the next time he contacts you.  Of course, he may contact in such a way that it would be hard to prove it was him, there are ways to hide phone numbers.  You may have to record all calls from phone numbers you don't recognize.  Can your cell phone do that or do you have a voice recorder that can make quality recordings?

[Crushedbyac]

There is no relationship now (I dont want any at all, but he still thinks we can work it out).  There are no children or any kind of business interests, we dont even have any common friends. Of course a normal person would have complied with a NC or ending request, but depending on whether he is black or white, he either thinks everything is fine and we are going to work it out if he is just persistent enough (I have told him directly and many times that it is over, and no I dont want a relationship, even friendship with him), or if he is black, I am the worst person on earth, he 'knows' I have done all sorts of evil things because Im 'out to get him' (all untrue of course), and he is out for vengeance, no one gets to say no to him, especially a woman! 

He doesnt have a list of women in general (that I know of).  Just his ex-wife who he has a very poor relationship.  He has said she is always threatening an RO on him, but to my knowledge it has never happened. Since he makes all sorts of stuff up about me all the time, I really have no idea whats true or not about other relationships. I had a PI do a cursory background check on him, but he didnt find anything.  Is that not deep enough to find that out?

He shouldnt be able to call my cell anymore, I discontinued the phone and number he had and I changed and discontinued all my email too.  It has gotten that far out of control that I had to do those things just to ensure my own sanity and peace.  Awful.

[livednlearned]

Hi Crushed,

You've taken wise steps and done many reasonable things to try to send the message that it's over, and he is not listening. It is beyond upsetting and can really wreak havoc on your well-being. I'm so sorry this is happening.

course a normal person would have complied with a NC or ending request, but depending on whether he is black or white, he either thinks everything is fine and we are going to work it out if he is just persistent enough (I have told him directly and many times that it is over, and no I dont want a relationship, even friendship with him), or if he is black, I am the worst person on earth, he 'knows' I have done all sorts of evil things because Im 'out to get him' (all untrue of course), and he is out for vengeance, no one gets to say no to him, especially a woman! 

This sounds very similar to my ex.

Have things quieted down for now, and you would like the RO as a way to confirm he will not contact you again?

With my ex, I went beige, neutral, bland, blank. I think sometimes the negative engagement is the same as positive engagement for someone who suffers from a PD, because any kind of emotional engagement is better than feeling nothing.

My therapist and lawyer both noticed that my ex seemed to be getting something out of negative engagement with me and counseled me to give him no reaction, positive (duh) or negative. We had many hearings in a court room together and I learned to have no facial expression, show no emotion, have no eye contact, and above all, engage in no conversation. If I did talk, I would simply say, Stop, or No and hold up my hand or walk away. When I left the court room, I had officers escort me to my car. My ex would walk alongside and smile menacingly like he was having the time of his life, or wave happily and be try to be overly friendly with the officers.

It is awful the lengths you have had to go to in order to get your ex to go away, and I am so sorry this is happening to you.

He is looking for an emotional reaction and if blocking his number and email helps, that is unfortunate yet smart.

There is a chapter in Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear about protection orders, when they work and when they do not. They can be helpful if you have to escalate to legal action, but to not rely on them to keep you safe -- keep using your intelligent intuition for that and take the kinds of precautions you are already doing.

LnL

[Crushedbyac]

Had the hearing today.  I was beyond nervous about being in the same room as him and Ive also never been to court before.  I didnt do a great job presenting my side as I was flustered and also had little hard evidence to present.  I had what I thought were great short notes from my therapist and PCP of 20 years that stated I was not prone to anxiety or what she witnessed in terms of my sanity recently, but the judge would not accept them since "its just what you told them, and no one can ask them questions here".  I get that but I didnt really have anything else except some personal journal pages that were also not considered 'evidence', so it was just him vs me, no 'proof'.  Now I guess I have to wait to find out until they send the decisions in the mail!  His testimony was odd though, for sure.  He didnt really address or refute my statements of harassment and abuse but rather went off on his current 'story' (false delusion) as his 'theory' of why i filed for the RO.  Of course that has little relevance to my statements in the petition about the ongoing abuse, so I dont understand why the judge let him talk about it and asked him questions about it for 20 minutes!  Even if I had agreed to the lies he was saying (not lies to him, since he is 110% entrenched in this delusion), it wouldnt have spoke to the harassment anyway.  He did slip on a few questions from the judge also, and I think the judge started to see that he was not quite right, but still, I dont know if I was able to meet my burden of proof.  The only thing I am hanging on right now is that is he accidentally (and then tried to retract) admitted to getting a new phone and number in order to contact me after I had told him directly to not contact me again and then blocked him from everything and deleted (changed) all my emails, which confirms that he has not respected my requests to not contact me, in a round about way i suppose.

So anyway, now Im just waiting.  Before I would have given myself a 50-50 chance for the RO awarded permanently.  Now Id say it 60-40, not much of an improvement. So now I wait and pray.  Starting to try and think about plan B.  Do I have to get a new car, job, move?  Where will it end?  What about when it expires? If it does get granted its only a year.  From what I read here, thats not very long for a BPD to wait and plan, amass war chest of accusations and hate, revenge.  Lots of posters here have NC for years and then out of the blue... .

Good god!

[ForeverDad]

I get the impression that the judge probably talked so much with him because he wanted to find out his perspective of the contact.  You clearly don't want contact and so the judge focused on him to determine his mindset and whether he is a problem.

I don't know about permanent ROs, usually they're for the most extreme situations.  After all, if it only takes him a year to comprehend that you really don't want contact and he diverts his attention elsewhere, then what need of a permanent RO that potentially could haunt him the rest of his life wherever he goes?  Courts are typically - my impression - inclined to make the least impactful rulings that will get the desired results.

Whatever protections you get from the court, stick to the order.  Don't ever contact the man ever again, not even for closure or niceness.  And if he violates the order, report it.  The order, whether strong or weak, is a Boundary.  It needs to be a firm boundary, relax it and it enables or invites more such behaviors.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Starting to try and think about plan B.  Do I have to get a new car, job, move?  Where will it end?  What about when it expires?

Crushedbyac, sorry it didn't go as well as you hoped.  I want to definitely, strongly encourage you again to get the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.  He has GREAT info on stalking and people who won't let go.

Even if you do get the RO, you are right that you still need plan B.  Part of the problem with RO's is they can give targets a false sense of security.  I spoke with a forensic psychiatrist regarding my ex who said "RO's are great for sane people who will abide by them, but unfortunately, we are most not often deailing with sane  people."  So even if you have the RO, you need plan B which is all about YOUR behavior and much less to do with his.  Unfortunately, we cannot, despite RO's, private investigators, tons of resources, body guards, etc., control another's behavior.

I was stalked for 10 solid months.  My ex contacted me over 600 times within that period of time.  I logged all of that and kept recordings of the voicemails he left.  Though I did not puruse a RO, I feel certain I would have had enough evidence to secure one.  I considered a RO and was encouraged by many to do so but elected to not pursue it based on what I learned in de Becker's book.  The stalking stopped when my ex was locked up for over a year for a reason totally unrelated to me which was, of course, wonderful because then he could NOT contact me.  Though he could have written letters but thankfully never did. 

De Becker's book gave me a strategy on what to do and confidence to do it.  He made it SO very clear that my job was NO RESPONSE.  I did it though it was very hard at times.  When my ex would threaten me or my kids or my business or reputation, I'd think maybe it would be better to talk. When he threatened suicide, I doubted the moral rightness of doing nothing and calling no one.  However, I stayed the course.

I spoke to the forensic psychiatrist, to the former Director of Public Safety of a huge county, a Colonel within the department and they all said they same thing:  "RO's don't always work; can make it worse and escalate behavior that otherwise may not have happened; and NO RESPONSE - sort of like a stray animal, if we quit putting the food out they will eventually go somewhere else."  Sounds like you are doing this.  So keep doing this! 

Additionally, I did the following:
-told my family which was hard to do and embarrassing but CRITICAL to my success and sanity
-quit speaking with a mutual friend even though I liked that friend.  He couldn't be trusted to not reveal that we had spoken or reveal any info about me
-changed the locks at my house
-changed the locks at my office
-moved offices about a month later and do not post my address on my website
-installed a security system at my house
-installed blinds at my house and kept them closed lest he come by
-covered the windows in my garage with paper
-put pins in the windows so they couldn't be opened
-got in my car in my garage and locked my doors before exiting the garage
-did not change my number but installed the blacklist app so his calls would go straight to voicemail so I couldn't answer even if I was tempted
-quit answering unknown numbers.  I anticipate that I will NEVER again answer an unknown number
-put a freeze on my credit lest he try to mess with me that way
-changed all of my passwords on all of my accounts
-had my computers wiped in case he had installed something on there I didn't know about
-set up google alerts on his name, my name, my business name, my kids' names in case he started posting stuff
-told my neighbors so they could be on the lookout for me
-would go to my mothers or out of town when he seemed particularly ramped up (my sisters and I treated it like the ocean conditions - red flag on particularly active days or on a day that might trigger him like the anniversary or when we met; orange flag when I needed to be mindful but could stay at home; yellow flag when things were quiet and calm though i still used the alarm and kept the blinds shut during these times)
-read de Becker's book like the Bible
-did EFT tapping (emotional freedom technique) and EMDR and self-hypnosis free videos to keep myself sane
-worked with an EFT practicioner over the phone to keep myself sane
-did Byron Katie's FREE volunteer ":)o the Work/Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet" helpline repeatedly to keep myself sane
-saw my therapist to keep myself sane
-journaling to keep myself sane
-zentangle to keep myself sane
-did bodywork with massage therapist to cut the emotional cords with my ex
-did coaching/accountability calls twice a week with a fellow friend
-talked to my sisters all the time to keep myself sane
-was in bpdfamily constantly to keep myself sane, to be honest when I was both angry and sad about him, and to support and maintain my commitment to NO Response
-kept a log of all of his contacts and my response (or lack thereof).  It was good to have the log in case I needed it down the road but even in the midst of it the log was a helpful way for me to see how much SUCCESS I was accumulating on my end.
-made my "peace" with the possibility that he might release a lot of really graphic recordings of sex talks we had by knowing that those were talks between two consenting adults that are allowed to happen.  Decided if he sent them to my clients I would say yep, I like dirty talk and there is nothing illegal about that.

This may be WAY more info than you want to know.  I share it to say there are things that we can do, must do, from our end to keep ourselves safe because no legal document can make others behave.  You can see I did a lot of physical safety oriented things.  And you can also see I did a lot of things to keep myself SANE. That was totally up to me, and I was determined to not give him any more power by me losing my spirit in the midst of it all.  For my own sake and for my kids' sakes.  Which is not to say it wasn't hard.  The hardest thing I've ever done so I had to be that dedicated to my sanity and taking care of myself. 

RO's can work and that it is great when they do, but they don't always work so we have to create our Plan B. 

The other HUGE gift of de Becker was teaching me to NOT freak out over because of fear or worry.  That I needed to look at what was actually happening in the moment.  The fact that my ex could turn violent was good to be aware of but even more important was for me to remember and see that he had NOT been violent and was NOT being violent in the moment. 

Also, there is MOSAIC threat assessment tool which is online and FREE to targets to assess the likelihood of violence. You can check it out here:  https://www.mosaicmethod.com/

Stay the course.  Take care of you.  YOU CAN DO THIS!

Listen to yourself too.  Don't ignore your instincts and intuitions.  Read de Becker's book.

One thing I didn't do was get on stalking victims chat groups.  I went on once or twice but hearing those horror stories did not help me.  They may help others but they exacerbated my fear and clouded my judgment.  We need to be as clear headed as possible in these situations.  Mindful of the danger and smart for sure but not hyper- and over-reactive.

I read that the stalking lasts an average of 18-24 months which was good to know that I was still making tracks even when it was still going on at 6 months++.  Again, you can do this!

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Also, if you do get the RO, know that that time can be a SUPER TRIGGER for your ex and one of the most dangerous times for you.  When are you likely to find out about the RO?  Can you stay away from home during that time?  Leave town or stay with a friend?  Can you borrow a car and/or drive a different route to work?  Please read up on this so you can be smart and safe.  XOXO

[Crushedbyac]

Thanks so much FD and RML.  I know the RO isnt a guarantee and I still need to be aware of what is possible.  One thing I am definitely aware of is the potential for the RO to infuriate him more, and Im terrified of that.  I will get that book and look into the things you mention too. Its never bad to be reminded to be safe and take care of myself since many of us dont do that as well as we should. I guess since the RO decision is being sent via snail-mail, I just have to wait until it shows up.  Not very good for anxiety.  But atleast the temp RO is still in effect while I wait, I guess thats a consolation.  Ive had the temp for about 3 weeks now and there has been no contact, he has managed to respect it so far.  Right now Im having anxiety worrying about the barrage and revenge that he will unleash if the RO isnt set for the year.  I cant imagine what it will be like once he finds out he can contact me again (if I dont get it).  Terrifying.  I KNOW now that I will record, track and log EVERYTHING.  I will never again be naive enough to think it cant get worse... .it always does. 

[Inneedofhelp]

Crushedbyac, I'm so sorry it has led to this point. You are so brave to take this step to live a healthier, safer life. I have not been through the process yet, but I would imagine that a letter from the therapist would be very helpful. Someone had suggested recording conversations-had thought about that for my situation but didn't know if it could be used in court?
I am considering a RO but no nothing about the process, and am scared because when he (separated hwBPD) gets rageful and starts with threats I warn him that I am feeling unsafe and might need to get someone else involved. If I say police he freaks out and says that he will "make me pay". How is a piece of paper going to help me keep safe?

[livednlearned]

Wow, ReclaimingLife. I thought I was thorough when my ex was all up in my business. We had a kid together, so it was hard to dial all the way out. Those are really good tips to follow when you're on high alert.

Crushed, while things are piping hot, you ma\y want to also change up your routine a bunch. I also contacted my HR department and let my boss and co-workers know what was going on. They were super kind (my boss, I found out, had been stalked by a crazy ex at one point in her life). They moved me to a cubicle that was in a safer place and didn't require me to have my name on the door.

Some other thoughts: Stay a night here and there with friends, have a security guard walk you to your car, change the routes you drive and/or walk home.

In my town, there is a forensic technology unit, and they will look for surveillance devices on cars as part of domestic violence support.

A lot of this is probably unnecessary, but focusing on what I could do helped take my mind off what I could not do, which was to get rid of N/BPDx completely.

I also started mindfulness practice. It's the best way to get them from renting space in your head, so you can live as much a normal life as possible.

You deserve that.

LnL