I don't know which way to turn - this is crisis point

[RomanticFool]

My exBPD married lover contacted me last night to see if I was safe from the London terror attacks. Over the past few weeks, I decided not to block her on WhatsApp because I thought it was too aggressive. I thanked her for her concern last night and she told me that her feelings have not changed. I then asked her if that was the case why she allowed me to walk away (9 weeks ago) when 2 years ago she would have declared undying love to stop it. She didn't answer and that was the end of the conversation.

This morning I woke up emotionally charged from the terror attacks and being back in the usual old position with the ex of having been ignored. So I sent a message this morning saying I was upset that she had gone silent again in the middle of a conversation.

She told me she was up until 1am checking on her son who lives in London and her daughter, who lives in Manchester. I told her that it had been a very stressful night and I was feeling emotional. I asked her if she still cared.

She then told me that I had 'savagely walked away from her' and that she was nervous about contacting me in case of a negative reaction. I thanked her again but asked her if me savagely walking away was really her reading of the situation. I then outlined all of the reasons for walking away again, in a way that I thought was not aggressive.

She told me that I had learnt nothing and that I was still being aggressive, that she couldn't take it and was going.

I told her that if she wasn't going to discuss the issues behind the split that this was the last communication I wanted with her and that I was blocking her from WhatsApp. I have now done so.

For a second there I thought we would be able to have a real conversation about the issues. One person on this forum last night told me that I am pathologising this woman because of my own failings and that I am the one with the problem. As I have said many many times on this forum, I know I have a part to play in this r/s souring. However, I am not going to allow her to forget about the ST, the year long campaign of abuse, the suicide threats, the devaluing, the constant push/pull etc.

I know how to recycle this r/s if that is what I wanted. She says that her feelings haven't changed. Part of me is thinking very seriously about recycling it. All it would take is a campaign of telling her how much I care and allowing her to tell me it was all my fault. But I cannot do that. It wasn't all my fault and despite what people may feel about the morality of an affair, this woman is the love of my life. However, I cannot go back to being given ST and psychologically abused.

I am not angry at her, even though she interprets my words as anger. I can see her BPD traits in action. The moment we get to the nub of the issues ie looking at her own behaviour, it is just easier for her to point the finger at me and run away. I get it. I understand it. My own emotional dysregulation under stress is making me behave in exactly the same way. However, I think BPD or not BPD is actually beside the point. I am dealing with a married woman who is hiding from me. I don't doubt she cares about me and it was nice that she contacted me concerned, but she wants to remain in contact. That's what this is all about. In my opinion, she doesn't want to see me at the moment because she is angry that I had the 'savagery' to walk away. Nothing she has said in the last 9 weeks shows she is willing to compromise or adapt in any way. This r/s would be a full time job if we were together, but the fact we are both married means it is impossible.

So I blocked her on WhatsApp. She will interpret that as more aggression and I suppose in a way it is. I would try to resolve things if there was a cat in hell's chance of us ever being together but there isn't. I would like to explain all of this to her, but whatever I say, unless it is grovelling back and telling her how much I unconditionally love her and how wrong I am, will just be met with retreat and ST. I cannot win. I am so sad. My home city has been attacked and I feel like my world is falling apart.

[GuySmiley]

I've said this before, but if it wasn't for the age difference I'd swear to almighty God that your BPDx was exactly the same woman as my BPDx - she treats me exactly the same. I understand the hurt and the crazy making and the emotional turmoil you're going through. And the thing is so do you - you've picked at the healing scab and you're back to square one again.

You also know that trying to rationalise and make sense of their reasons and excuses etc will get you nowhere - try to pin them down on one issue and discuss and they'll move the goalposts and bring up something else. You cannot win. You know this.

You also know, no matter how you try and rationalise it, the real reason you block then unblock them - it's not because it's too aggressive - it's because you crave your phone pinging and they've made contact again and it suddenly feels good again. It's also because if you block them, you might not actually hear from them again, and you don't want that. Admit that - we all do it. We're all addicted and messed up, that's why we're here.

In regards to the morality of you both being married, I'm almost in a similar situation - her being married but I'm not. She reached out to me first after 10 years of NC, but now she was married. Initially for the first 3 years or so I was hesitant to get involved - nowadays I don't care. Her marriage etc is not my responsibility, neither is the welfare etc of her husband. And I've been there - I've been the one who was cheated on (by her) so I know the pain etc that it causes - but neither she or he are my responsibility. This has been going on for years under his nose so if he hasn't twigged by now he either doesn't care or doesn't know the woman he married. Either way, if it's not with me she'd be having this 99% emotional affair with someone else. I've told her to not contact me and focus on her husband and marriage instead, but if she does (and she does) contact me, well that's their own lookout. I'm not responsible for them. I don't judge you morally as I know how how addictive and how enmeshed we become and how unbelievably hard it is to not be with the one we truly want.

[RomanticFool]

Hi GuySmiley,

Thanks for that. As I've said to you before, they are all the same woman. I agree with your assertion that contact from them makes us feel good, it is indeed addictive, but part of the reason I contacted her this morning was just in case I had been unfair. If you've loved somebody like I've loved my ex, you don't want to let it go without trying every conceivable possibility. I actually thought she was going to engage with me. Had she uttered one syllable of regret or taken 0.1% of responsibility, I'd probably have recycled. But what she did, after 9 weeks of NC, is tell me that I haven't learnt anything. That did indeed reinforce everything I already know.

Somebody got very judgemental with me on the forum last night and told me I was pathologising her to cover up my own failings. I've re-established this morning that this isn't all in my head but is a very real condition which I ignore at my peril. However anybody wishes to judge me here, the fact is just a year ago I wanted to die because of what she put me me through.

I know enough about BPD not to be emotionally destroyed when she behaves in this characteristic way. The fact that she has even engaged at all over the last 9 weeks means that she is either wanting to recycle or she just wants the contact. But how can I have a r/s with somebody who is never going to leave their husband, will always keep me at arms length and will always call me aggressive for challenging her on absolutely anything at all? It just isn't viable. I so want it to be. I want to be back with her and trying to pin her down to meeting me. But I know too much about BPD now and cannot ignore the behaviour when I see it right before my very eyes. It is a shame, I would like nothing more than another night of passion, but there is simply too high a price to pay.

I really like what you said about her husband not being your responsibility. I feel exactly the same way. She always tells me that her husband doesn't care about her but then he becomes very restrictive when he finds out she is up to no good. My guess is that she has been up to no good alot through the r/s. I have no idea whether he still wants her or what kind of r/s they have, but it can't be good. Neither do I much care. That is her business, just as my situation is my business. As you say I am not responsible for what her or her husband choose to do or not do.

In my case I am responsible for my wife, but if we haven't slept together for 8 years then I guess she doesn't really want me and vice versa. So to appease the moral universe I should get divorced and wait a decent amount of time before getting involved with somebody else and I probably will do that soon. But in the meantime a woman I adore came along and life is much messier than the self-righteous would like. So here I am. Addicted to a woman with BPD.

[roberto516]

Romantic Fool you hit it on the head. If you really love someone you'd try every conceivable way to really be sure about it. That's where the pain is for us. To have such strong emotions and we can't do anything about it. I loved this woman more than anyone will ever know. The sacrifices, kind words, support, etc. All of it to prove that I wouldn't ever leave her. But it's never enough. It's just never enough. And it hurts. We think about them all day. We would kill for them. It sucks.

Chin up my friend. I'm glad to see you're still posting.

[RomanticFool]

Hey Roberto,

It's been a difficult day. I told her I was blocking her on WhatsApp after this morning's contact. Then I relented and said she must still feel something for me if she has contacted me 3 times in the last 9 weeks. I called her bluff on the recycling and said, 'If you want me I'm here.' Of course, no reply.

It's interesting going through this process because I know exactly what I have to do to get her back. Not contact her and then when she does make contact pretend we never had an argument. I can no longer do it. It's just pulling the trigger on the WhatsApp blocking because I know that will probably be it. She knows I'm on to her and refuses to give me anything at all. She won't discuss anything but tells me I'm a savage for walking away. It's a very good thing I know that this is BPD otherwise I'd be very confused and messed up by now. Well more messed up than I am.

I do also think she really believes that I'm the aggressor. Despite all of the evidence I placed before her (the very act of which she called aggressive) she says that I am the savage for walking away. I'm seeing the absurdity in the whole thing now.

When i got back from Vegas I was feeling awful and so contact from her last night was a welcome relief from my pain. However, I knew it would be short lived. I can't dredge up the hypocrisy it would take for a recycle even if she wanted one, which i'm not sure she does at the moment. This is all about keeping in contact. So tonight, I am going to pull the plug on WhatsApp and then I think that will be it.

I am certain that I've left no stone unturned. Any non would at least have a conversation with me even if they didn't agree with my analysis. I knew when she said she was going this morning that that was it. Game over.

On the question of posting. I am at crisis point with this at the moment. I need the support of this group and I just hope that anybody who feels like making a moral judgement on my r/s keeps it to themselves until I am sufficiently strong enough to deal.

Thanks for listening.

[Harley Quinn]

I think you've all hit a lot of nails actually and really made me think, as is always guaranteed whenever I read posts on here.  RF, I'm sorry to hear you sounding disheartened about sharing and hope you are feeling like sticking around as I find your thoughts really valuable, as I do everyone's on here.  Thing is, I read the books and I researched the medical stuff but nothing comes close to connecting with real life others who have shared the same experiences... As I said when I first posted, I only wish I'd found this place sooner.

So far I haven't shared this and it seems apt right now as you've triggered some musing on my part about BPD marriage.

My exBPDbf is also married.  When we met he told me this in one of our first conversations, along with the fact that he has children to two different women (one being his wife).  However I was informed that he left his wife 3 years ago and she had refused ever since to give him the divorce he wanted.  She wanted him back and for him it was over.  At the time we met he had moved back in a few months earlier as a temporary stop gap whilst he looked for another place to live after he defaulted on his tenancy arrangement.  He told me he was sleeping on the sofa and hadn't slept with his wife since before he left her.  The only reason he had agreed (it was her suggestion he return until he had somewhere sorted) was so that he could be with his sons, who were the light of his world.  It kinda made sense though I couldn't help but think there had to be other benefits... . Still he was adamant there was no attraction on his part.  I should have heard the alarm bells then about how he could use her when he knew full well that she was attempting to get him back and using the kids as an alluring incentive to be under the same roof.  He later told me she had tried it on with him a few times and he'd turned her down.  Who knows what the truth really was.  

Anyway over time it became really clear that this woman would literally do ANYTHING (trust me, there was alarming stuff) to keep him in her life and was willing even after he had told her about me (btw I was totally resistant for months before things progressed with us because of the whole married and living there thing but am trying to give you the short version) to overlook the fact he was in a relationship with someone else altogether.  In fact at one point she asked him to move back in and have an open relationship, continue seeing me and be with her as well.  There is a ton more to the story, but it's far too complex for my head to venture into tonight so I've kept it brief.  

I think what strikes me is that entering into a marriage with a pwBPD (unless recovered of course) is NOT in ANY way like marrying a mentally stable person.  In other words, to expect fidelity and conform to social norms within that institution seems a bit of an unrealistic expectation given that the majority aren't able to sustain that at any other time... .I mean my ex didn't mean what he said half the time and changed his mind with his emotions from one minute the next so how can we expect vows to be abided by?  My ex's wife clearly knew him for who he was and had lived with his behaviours for 8 years before he left her so there were no surprises.  Perhaps over time she had grown to accept that this is the way it was but she couldn't stop loving him and was prepared to ignore the parts that hurt to try to maintain the parts that didn't.  He told me that he had never loved her, had never told her he did - in fact had never told anyone he loved them until me.  Apparently he'd never really believed he was capable of loving and was forever telling me how everything was new with me.  All his feelings, experiences, the things we did together, places we went.  He kept saying everything is a first.  Was quite intense and also endearing.  It did reinforce the attachment of course because I felt so much empathy that he'd been deprived of so much happiness in his life.  

Despite my initial resistance he pursued me, not the other way around and eventually he won me over.  His constant insistance that the marriage meant nothing and that he wanted a divorce but she wouldn't agree did make me look at things differently.  Obviously I was being lovebombed too... .yet once things progressed I never felt like I cheated with him.  He was detached from his wife and she had her eyes open and was aware of what she was involved in by being with him in the first place and for trying to remain in the situation.  I did feel sorry for her though because he actually told her how he felt about me and about all the ways it was so different.  That was really unnecessary and hurtful to her, which I made sure to explain to him.  Not that he could fully understand... . 

After the fact I can't help but wonder how much bs he told both of us and how similar our stories might be if we were to talk.  Also I thank my lucky stars that I didn't stick around long enough to find myself in her shoes.  He really wanted me to marry him and given the chance I'd have jumped at it too, as hooked as I was.
 I wonder if people who knowingly marry pwBPD do so in the full awareness that this act / contract isn't likely to change their behaviours any more than a star chart would?  Of course it's possible to marry before knowing these traits are there... .So as I say just musing really.  In my long drawn out way I suppose I'm saying that I treated his marriage differently once I knew about his traits because he was unstable impulsive and erratic so the views I'd hold about traditional marriage just didn't seem to apply.  Plus his very convincing argument that it was long dead and had never been real to begin with.  He'd admitted he had only wanted children and she had two kids when he met her whom he adored.  The fact that he's gone on to another rescuer after myself and not gone back to his wife speaks for itself and at least reassures me that some at least of what he said had to have had some truth in it.  I just hope for his wife's sake that her healing process has begun.  Who knows how many times she has seen all this happen?

I so feel your anguish RF.  I can categorically say that NC has been less about strength and more about absolute necessity for me. If I were to engage in any sort of two way communication with him, my heart would just burst all over the place and I would be TOO likely to bend to his will instantly.  The only way I'm keeping it together at this point is by having that distance and not speaking to or seeing him at all.  Letting go of a love so fierce is the hardest thing ever and if I'd let myself I'd have been doing whatever it takes forever to never ever give up on him.  But I'd have had to give up on myself entirely.  So the fact that you've managed to have a dialogue and still maintain a logical resolve over your heightened emotions makes you an inspiration to me and you are much stronger than you give yourself credit for.  
Remember, it is not her opinion of you or anyone else's that matters.  What is most important is your opinion of yourself.  I think you know that you are a good and loving person who has a weakness for very enigmatic sexy women.  Who can fault that?  You also know you are worth more than she can ever offer you.  Hold out for someone who will meet you on a level playing field and recognise all that is good in you, whilst embracing your flaws.  You deserve to have someone feel about you (AND CONSISTENTLY SHOW YOU THIS) the same way as you do about them.  We cannot have equal partnerships or sustainable ones with our ex's.  Our heads know this... .

Love and light x  

[RomanticFool]

Hey Harley Quinn,

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to write that. You have no idea how much you have helped me. I very much understand being the third leg in the stool (to quote Skip) and all of the anguish that entails. You sound to me like you are beginning to heal. I am so glad to be some kind of strength for you. It is good to hear that.

I had such a lovely day yesterday, at a family party and then watching the Champions League final match. Since I got back from Las Vegas on Wednesday, I have been missing my ex so much, mainly because she contacted me on my birthday. Anyway, as soon as the match was over I became aware of the events unfolding in London and I was plunged into fear and despair. Then at 1am came the message from my ex. I was very polite and answered immediately, thanking her for her concern. She replied with, "that will always be the case" and then said that she still felt the same. I just cannot do abuse amnesia and so I asked her if she cared so much why she let me walk away 9 weeks ago without a word of protest. That's when I got told that walking away was savage. Bingo, I was off... .Triggered... .

I have become better in time at dealing with her contacting me after absences. She did it to me so frequently that it helped me to develop a thicker skin around it. It still hurts like hell though. She took a year out of our r/s to drink and abuse me (which I brought up with her this morning - that's when she said, 'I'm going'.  I don't know how conscious she is that contacting me will cause pain. She tells me she is apprehensive of contacting me due to my reactions, but the thing is, my reactions are always telling her how much I lover her but citing the reasons why I had to walk away. There is never any admission that she has done the same thing to me over and over again without any explanation.

Now that my emotions are calming down, I can't really say I want her back in my life with any enthusiasm. Sure I'd like to sleep with her again, but you know what, even that is beginning to wane. Her total uncompromising nature and refusal to engage in meaningful conversation is actually boring me. I know I keep making the same mistake by challenging her, I did it throughout our r/s, but I live in hope that one day we will have a meaningful conversation. Not on her watch! Even at the time she felt the most well disposed towards me, I still would get barely more than a couple of lines in a text.

I haven't seen her for 9 weeks. By now we would be planning a meet up and the excitement would be building. Of course she would be throwing all kinds of spanners in the works constantly, but at least I would have something to look forward to. At the moment it feels like days and days of endless yearning.

However, the fact that I haven't seen her and there are no plans in place, means the intensity is beginning to dwindle. I am starting to chide myself for accepting so little for so long. Even if we recycle this thing tomorrow, it could never be the same because the genie is out of the bottle regarding her behaviour. She knows that I know. She must be contacting me for validation of some kind, to either hear words of love or to be told how much I miss her. I have said I love her, which I am sure is giving her some narcissistic supply, but that will be tempered by the barrage of criticism as she perceives it. In fact, all I'm doing is trying to get her to discuss at least one of the issues on the table, but she will close down every time she feels criticised.

So where does that leave me? In 9 weeks she has contacted me 3 times. She views my walking away as savage and I believe she is currently punishing me for it. From what I can see the thing she really wants most is to stay in contact. I am suspicious that she may have met somebody else, but I have to put that out of my mind and concentrate on what is best for me. I would like to block her on WhatsApp (and had I done that I don't think she would have contacted me) but it has been a tough 24 hours and I just don't have the strength to do it tonight. But I can feel the noose of this r/s loosening around my neck. I am starting to be able breathe and see things more clearly. Like you, the minute I engage with her I am in trouble, but I think I have developed strength and resilience over the years of abuse and my recovery time from extreme pain and turmoil seems to be getting quicker.

I can't tell you HQ how much I want this woman out of my head. I have gotten her out of my system once before in my life, some 12 years ago, when I was younger and more robust, and I am sure I can get her out of my head again. It's just harder this time round. The r/s was longer and more meaningful and she engaged more at the beginning. However, the truth of the matter is, apart from a brief period of time, she has really never given me much to hang onto. Most of the fantasy, the elevating it to opera proportions of love and the talk of forever and ever has actually come from me. She has been along for the ride, but doesn't seem that affected when it's time to get off.

Remember, it is not her opinion of you or anyone else's that matters.  What is most important is your opinion of yourself.  I think you know that you are a good and loving person who has a weakness for very enigmatic sexy women.  Who can fault that?  You also know you are worth more than she can ever offer you.  Hold out for someone who will meet you on a level playing field and recognise all that is good in you, whilst embracing your flaws.  You deserve to have someone feel about you (AND CONSISTENTLY SHOW YOU THIS) the same way as you do about them.  We cannot have equal partnerships or sustainable ones with our ex's.  Our heads know this... .

I am going to read that paragraph over and over tonight before I go to sleep. Thank you HQ. You are a healer.


RF

[Harley Quinn]

Hi RF,

If anything I say is helpful I'm really glad and you're very welcome.  I tend to speak from the heart.  I've been following your story since I arrived and you may not see what I do as an onlooker.  Which is definite progress.  Sounds to me like you are preparing to let go and I salute you for that.  It's reassuring to hear that the pain is easier after your contact than it was earlier in the relationship.  Imagine what it would be like if you didn't subject yourself to any of the pain from that at all.  When you are ready, and I'm sure that moment will come from the way you are speaking, you will decide to honour yourself and cut the contact altogether.  It is so hard to break the cycle but baby steps.  Things are all going in the right direction for all of us.  We are healing, learning about ourselves and growing.  Self love isn't taught in school, although it should be instead of just all this constant striving, achieving, beating ourselves up, expecting more from ourselves, never quitting (and as a result - certainly in my case, often flogging a dead horse) carp.  So we must find our own way and feel about in the dark a bit with this stuff.  But we will get there, all in our own time.  Life is full of lessons and unless we learn what we're meant to we go round and round until we do.  Now I'm sounding all philosophical and just heard the cat throwing up... .so vile nature calls 

A quote from an old film I often use:  Head up young person.

Love and light x 

[Emotions]

Hey RF, only you know the morality of it... .I can't guess about that part. I haven't been able to block mine yet, and i hope I never have to cross that bridge... .I have some mile markers that if she doesn't try to reach out to me by these I will try to close the idea that I will be with her again. This journey in life is about you, and if you can focus on your good qualities and or activities that make you feel not so down that might work better. I'm sorry about what happened in London. Her reaching out to you is bread crumbs man... .you have put your chips ALL in at some point, and she folded. She didn't put hers all in or you wouldn't be worrying about this... .I put my chips all in, and somehow they landed in my replacements pile... .it's a big piece of humble pie and tastes like crap, but it fills me up more than the crumbs I have been getting of late. I can't answer about blocking yet cause mines not even texting or calling me, but I can tell you with all of the strength you have think about something else... .control your thoughts and BE COOL. I hope this helps a little giving you some strength and knowing you have a friend in me. I know I'm not your ex, but atleast it's something

[Skip]

My exBPD married lover contacted me last night to see if I was safe from the London terror attacks. I thanked her for her concern last night and she told me that her feelings have not changed.

I sent a message this morning saying I was upset that she had gone silent again in the middle of a conversation.

She then told me that I had 'savagely walked away from her' and that she was nervous about contacting me in case of a negative reaction.

I then outlined all of the reasons for walking away again, in a way that I thought was not aggressive.

She told me that I had learnt nothing and that I was still being aggressive, that she couldn't take it and was going.

I told her that if she wasn't going to discuss the issues behind the split that this was the last communication I wanted with her and that I was blocking her from WhatsApp.

Whatever I say, unless it is grovelling back and telling her how much I unconditionally love her and how wrong I am, will just be met with retreat and ST. I cannot win. I am so sad.

Hmmm.

As hard as this might be to hear, I think you would be well served to at least consider that you are creating the relationship crisis that are upsetting you.

You have a very dysfunctional marriage at this point - and you emotionally unavailable to your wife for years and in an affair - yet critical that she is not closer to you.

You have a "no future" affair with a women with BPD (e.g., high rejection sensitivity) and you make demands on her that she can't fulfill the point that she goes silent- and get mad at that.

Any meaningful level of success with either of this relationships, dooms the other.

They call setups like this, the no win scenario.

Does this make any sense?

Often, people caught up in this don't make progress until their world crashes and burns. Is this going to be your story?

I think you are right. There is no "win" in this puzzle you seek to solve.

[GuySmiley]

I think we're all well aware we're engaging in "no future" relationships. It's one of the reasons it hurts so much - they feel 100% right when we're together, but it's the aftermath that leaves us painfully empty and emotionally shredded. But we simply cannot let go because they feel so right regardless of practicalities or availability of the other partner.

It's the "We're so perfect why the f*ck can we not be together?" scenario, even when we know the answer, plus even though we'd have no future if we somehow did work out together. It's a nonsensical addiction. We know it's not good for us but the allure of them is too strong.

HR knows this - there's deep emotional enmeshment in all our messed up relationships and it's seems a bit odd that some can stand at the side and tell us to simply let go because it's not going to happen. We know that and if it was that easy to do then none of us would be here.

We know the common sense of it - but our own unique relationships have us all deeply ensnared where we simply cannot take the practical common sense approach and just walk away and not look back.

ETA - I'd also point out that it's more than likely she blanks HR and goes silent not because he's making demands of her, but he's asking for clarification or acknowledgements of the crazy-making and hurt she's inflicting and BPDs are well known to avoid, gaslight or project in these situations simply because they don't like to be held to account or face any negative criticism. That's the reason she's going silent - HR is asking for her to acknowledge the hurt and she's blanking him, leaving him with intense emotions that cannot go anywhere but back inside himself and damage him emotionally - and that quite simply is emotional abuse on the part of his BPD.

[roberto516]

plus even though we'd have no future if we somehow did work out together.

That's the reason she's going silent - HR is asking for her to acknowledge the hurt and she's blanking him, leaving him with intense emotions that cannot go anywhere but back inside himself and damage him emotionally - and that quite simply is emotional abuse on the part of his BPD.

Well said sir. The first quote is the sad truth. Even if in a year she came out of the blue explaining how she's figured all the things out about herself and how to stop self sabotaging etc... .I could never trust her again. Not in a million years.

Onto your second quote. It's 100% true. I spoke to a friend about how once I left she spent 2 weeks trying to get me to come over when I was asking her about meeting somewhere to eat etc. He said "she wouldn't do that because then you guys would have to talk about everything."

It is emotional abuse. I wish I was stronger to rise above it but when I was met with silence or "ok" I'd get so angry. Then she'd say I was saying mean things to her. Well I was, it's true. But it's such a slap in the face to ignore someone who is trying to talk.

I get it though. If one is to believe that a high percentage of BPD's are alexthymic then it makes sense. They literally cannot put into words or even feel what is going on with them. It's a sad sad thing. Grown up children and I feel for people who have the disorder on most days.

[Rayban]

RF

I think at this point she is just doing maintenance to keep you attached. Maybe she's on a good streak with her husband.  At this point you're a secondary attachment.  Sounds like she's getting closer to her husband or other primary attachment.  She's gonna eventually push away the primary attachment, and then attempt to pull you back in.

I would push her for answers. Even breaking up over her behaviour.  I would call her out on the lying, cheating, flirting, lack of empathy.  At that point she saw me as an enemy.  Every time I went back I provided her a reason for a reunion fantasy. By going back  after calling her out gave her reason in her mind to blame me for the dysfunctional relationship.  
It just got worse for me. She knew my weak spots.  I was chsllanging her defense mechanisms. She fought back. She will never admit to being wrong. Each recycle is an invitation to occupy a space in your mind in exchange for sex.

Won't be long before she has you convinced that you are the problem.  She cant be.  The shame will be intolerable . Fast forward two months from now, and you won't be any happier keeping contact with her. She will keep diminishing her feelings for you. Basically you're giving her authority to decide when it's over.

Don't be surprised if she asks you never to contact her.  If you persist she'll get a RO on you. Don't let it get to that. Give yourself some time to figure out what you really want.  

[heartandwhole]

However, the fact that I haven't seen her and there are no plans in place, means the intensity is beginning to dwindle. I am starting to chide myself for accepting so little for so long. Even if we recycle this thing tomorrow, it could never be the same because the genie is out of the bottle regarding her behaviour.

This sounds like progress RF. This is part of what NC is all about. Creating some distance—a little space—to feel and process our emotions without the daily distraction and/or drama of the relationship. It is like coming off a drug, and the body and mind need time and space to come back into balance.

Also, stressful times like these in the UK require even more of a pause for reflection, because when we are highly stressed, we tend to reach toward what is familiar for comfort—even if it's something we know will hurt us.  

The more space you create for yourself and the more you focus on your own feelings, needs, and wants, the faster you will recover. It's really tough, because in this process we also discover things about ourselves that can be upsetting, but you can do it. Keep going.  

heartandwhole

[Skip]

... .it's seems a bit odd that some can stand at the side and tell us to simply let go because it's not going to happen. We know that and if it was that easy to do then none of us would be here.

We know the common sense of it - but our own unique relationships have us all deeply ensnared where we simply cannot take the practical common sense approach and just walk away and not look back.

Are you describing Unrelenting Crises versus Inhibiting Emotions? Ironically, this is a dilemma that often trips up pw BPD.

The solution (for all of us) is generally seen as adopting a WiseMind approach - solving the conflict between our logical mind and emotional mind... .



The start of that process is articulating both positions, independently and very openly and clearly.

The logical side of this "crisis", in my opinion, is that you (RM) are in a no-win situation. The epicenter if that is your wife - a good women (as you described her) who stands by you as a faithful spouse and trusts you when you spend your time away and loves you for who you are - emotional unavailable (as you have described). If you she learns what is going on, the house will likely crash in crisis.

If this part of your life collapses, will you be left standing alone with a part time, on-gain and off-again affair partner who has been resolute for 14 years to stay with her husband, and revisiting your past periods of suicidal idealization and with more determination?

The emotional side of this is a bit fluid. Clearly, this is a "dream girl" who is aloof and elusive and is all that more desirable because of it. A few weeks back, this was described as a relationship of intense sexual appeal (with little more). Since then to be described as the "love of my life". I suspect both are true in ways. The controversy right now is that you want her to put more into the affair and she wants to operate at a lower level  - your needs (an more involved affair) and her needs (an occasional diversion) don't match up - they are in conflict.

The reason that I said earlier that this is very likely a no win scenario is that if you hold your position that unless your affair partner in more committed, you are going to "hold out" until she yields,  it will likely destroy the affair. However, if you succeedd in getting the affair ratcheted up a few notches, the Jeanie (affair) is more likely to get out of the bottle. If it gets out to either spouse or the children, all hell will break loose in your life and you will likely end up with nothing.

If you are in a chess game and the only moves you are considering will put you in "check", its time to rethink the game.

The alternate chess move is to give the affair partner the space and grace she is asking for. Recognize that the reason that she goes silent is that she feels bullied and that is a common response to be bullied. Also accept that the affair is an affair - an occasional  fantasy diversion from real life with a man she sees as attractive, compatible, and safe (married, discrete, dependable, not a felon, etc.). This will end the crisis and, in a few weeks, will give you some emotional space to see things more clearly - move closer to wisemind.

Clarity is important. There are two women in your life and that is not likely sustainable. You have choice right now on how this will turn out. However, if you stay that path you are on, the choice will likely be for others to make.

Good mental health is hard. It often involves making making wise decisions and not being overrun by our emotions.

And lastly, there is a values/character/boundaries issue here. Your wife, as you say, is a good women. Can you label yourself the same if you stay in this affair? Is that important to you? And what about your affair partner - if you ended up with her, would either of you ver trust each other?

[RomanticFool]

Rayban,

Your words have been going through my brain alot today:

I think at this point she is just doing maintenance to keep you attached. Maybe she's on a good streak with her husband.  At this point you're a secondary attachment.  Sounds like she's getting closer to her husband or other primary attachment.  She's gonna eventually push away the primary attachment, and then attempt to pull you back in.

This is exactly my reading of the situation too. I had made up my mind to go back to NC today after offering her the chance to recycle yesterday, which she didn't take. Today I got this message:

I always enjoy my time in Las Vegas

This was supposed to be a jibe at me going with my wife, which I had told her about before we broke up. She has clearly forgotten that. I replied with:

Yes I know. The last time you went you asked me to call you there

I then asked her how she was which was met with the reply, 'Not good.' No further contact.

I feel more detached then before. I don't have the same level of angst around hearing from her. Part of me is enjoying the power of calling her bluff on the recycle. Every instinct I have tells me she has another intrigue. I need to pull the plug on WhatsApp.

I would push her for answers. Even breaking up over her behaviour.  I would call her out on the lying, cheating, flirting, lack of empathy.  At that point she saw me as an enemy.  Every time I went back I provided her a reason for a reunion fantasy. By going back  after calling her out gave her reason in her mind to blame me for the dysfunctional relationship.  
It just got worse for me. She knew my weak spots.  I was challenging her defense mechanisms. She fought back. She will never admit to being wrong. Each recycle is an invitation to occupy a space in your mind in exchange for sex.

I really identify with all of this. I have actually stopped attacking her. I think it is because I am no longer as emotionally engaged and she feels like a stranger. I also don't feel any better for being in contact. Part of me is intrigued to see what she does next. She wasn't expecting me to be reasonable this week. She was expecting more criticism and I can sense that she doesn't know what to do with me enquiring after her well being. I am feeling like I am detaching and taking the power she has over me away. I am usually emotionally wrought when she contacts me but after 9 weeks something is shifting. It is like I am starting to see the real person, the BPD person for the first time.I am not kidding myself, if I was to see her or talk to her it would all start up again in my head. She has contacted me 3 times in the last 9 weeks and on noe of these occasions has she followed through with a recycle. Your analysis is correct. She wants me as a secondary attachment. Let's be honest, that's what I've been most of the time anyway, only now I don't feel desperate over her.

This isn't the type of r/s where a RO will be issued. We have never got out of control in that way, even at times of extreme provocation. She has never exhibited the BPD overt temper to me, it is all withdrawal, ST and cutting me off. That is her MO.

[onelittleladybug]

Hi again Romanticfool. A couple weeks ago I said I would give you feedback based on my own experience. My personal life has been a bit crazy lately and although I started to write a few times I didnt have enough time to finish.

Heres my story that I wanted to share: Several years ago my before deeply committed and stable relationship that was on road to marriage came to an end when my ex partner signed a lease on a house he liked and I didnt like thinking he could convince me after the fact to move in. We lived together when he signed the lease and he was not planning to move there without me. For me this was manipulation and betrayal beyond what I could live with. The end was sudden and catastrophic as in just a couple days my life was completely upside down, I was homeless and single and had a dependent also (my mother is in bad health). Rebuilding after the great upheaval took months. Once I had rebuilt what needed to be of my life I started dating again. Almost immediately I met an older man from another place, a place I had been planning  a move to for several years (I live there now). It was a whirlwind romance, and very much like your r/s it was all about, sex, trips, dinners, fun. After a short while I found out he was married, but in an open marriage. I also found out he was 19 years older than me, not 10 as he had said. I was extremely upset about the manipulation and lies but ended up doing something very out of character for me which was to decide to give the relationship a shot. The open marriage turned out not to be a lie (I was very skeptical).

Im not going to go more into the details of the story, Im just going to relate to what you are going through and say what I see. Once the r/s was over (it took a long time to end it we were on the brink for what felt like ages) I started seeing how this man provided me with everything that I had missed in the previous r/s but none of what my previous real and committed r/s had offered. Remember that 3 legged chair situation that Skip described to you in a previous post? That was a really powerful way to describe the situation. My married friend became that third leg of my chair but somehow after the fact in the sense that I was still reacting to needs not met in the previous committed r/s. The same thing was going on for my married b/f. He has, like you, been in not just sexless marriage for 2 decades but also completely devoid of any physical affection or even emotional. The two of them live completely separate lives, while they share a house he is away most of the time. They go out for a meal or drink every now and then, he openly talks about his romantic life to her but she doesnt really like it. All in all they are really good buddies and they are still filling some needs and roles for each other. I knew that and I could always feel her presence. She was always there somehow and I felt like I was in a very limited part time r/s with a man and a ghost.

Over time I became more aware that I was just what Skip described, a tool to keep their life together. If they split up she would lose status, a house and would really struggle. While I dont understand or relate to the choices they make and their reasons for them I didnt want to play a part in destroying what they have. I didnt want to have to wait to have a chance at a committed and equal partnership. My married friend claimed that everything depended on how things were going between us. That he was considering leaving but only if we got along well. The situation was very stressful and we had many fights. I wasnt sure when he said that if that was manipulation but I didnt feel good about it either way.

I dont actually agree with what has been said here about you having an otherwise good marriage that needs saving. It really depends on what your needs are and if they are being met. Personally I could not live with being in a sexless or physically distant marriage. I find it somewhat abusive but it depends on your situation and your communication (or lack of). It does sound like you entered the marriage knowingly (did I read that right?) In which case you need to be more upfront with your wife about your needs not being met and what to do about it. But the main thing is this: I think the reason why you are struggling so intensely with the loss of your affair partner or the potential of the loss is because the r/s has been a crutch to you to keep things going. You need to redirect your attention to your actual and real life (marriage). Once you do you will relief the burden off your affair and  will be able to process things. I wouldnt be surprised that when/if you do, your feelings for this woman will reach at least some balance and no longer be so volatile and explosive.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Yes my logical mind and emotional mind are in conflict.

The logical side of this "crisis", in my opinion, is that you (RM) are in a no-win situation. The epicenter if that is your wife - a good women (as you described her) who stands by you as a faithful spouse and trusts you when you spend your time away and loves you for who you are - emotional unavailable (as you have described). If you she learns what is going on, the house will likely crash in crisis.

If this part of your life collapses, will you be left standing alone with a part time, on-gain and off-again affair partner who has been resolute for 14 years to stay with her husband, and revisiting your past periods of suicidal idealization and with more determination?

I like my wife as a person more than the exBPD. I have given up on the idea of being with the ex outside of having an affair. It's not going to happen. Part of the pain of the last 9 weeks has been letting go of the fantasy.

I do not underestimate how low this affair could take me. I am beginning to change in the intensity of my emotions towards the ex.

The emotional side of this is a bit fluid. Clearly, this is a "dream girl" who is aloof and elusive and is all that more desirable because of it. A few weeks back, this was described as a relationship of intense sexual appeal (with little more). Since then to be described as the "love of my life". I suspect both are true in ways. The controversy right now is that you want her to put more into the affair and she wants to operate at a lower level  - your needs (an more involved affair) and her needs (an occasional diversion) don't match up - they are in conflict.

As I mentioned in reply to Rayban, I have stopped attacking her. Mainly because I can see it's futile. It's also strange to watch her playing out exactly the BPD type behaviour of trying to keep the attachment going while resisting a recycle. I don't doubt that if I keep flattering her for another couple of weeks I'll win her round, but my heart isn't in it anymore. Like alcoholism, I have too much knowledge to keep active in the addiction. Not saying it couldn't be rekindled, just yesterday I gave her the chance to recycle, but that was really to call her bluff. I am not sure she wants a recycle at the moment.

What is clear is that she hasn't budged an inch and told me the other day that I've learnt nothing. The conflict in our needs and desires is correct. I wanted to elevate this situation to a big love. I think she is the love of my life in terms of the intensity of my passion. You are probably correct that much of it is about sex, but that is only because she won't let me get close. What I do know about her goes beyond sex, but that is waning after the abuse and distance of the last 9 weeks.

The reason that I said earlier that this is very likely a no win scenario is that if you hold your position that unless your affair partner in more committed, you are going to "hold out" until she yields,  it will likely destroy the affair. However, if you succeeded in getting the affair ratcheted up a few notches, the Jeanie (affair) is more likely to get out of the bottle. If it gets out to either spouse or the children, all hell will break loose in your life and you will likely end up with nothing.

It is true that if she had ever allowed the affair to get ratcheted up it would have threatened both of our marriages. I don't have children but she has 3, albeit grown up, but one of them is possibly BPD himself and I am sure if he found out it would spell trouble. So I take your point here.

If you are in a chess game and the only moves you are considering will put you in "check", its time to rethink the game.

The alternate chess move is to give the affair partner the space and grace she is asking for. Recognize that the reason that she goes silent is that she feels bullied and that is a common response to be bullied. Also accept that the affair is an affair - an occasional  fantasy diversion from real life with a man she sees as attractive, compatible, and safe (married, discrete, dependable, not a felon, etc.). This will end the crisis and, in a few weeks, will give you some emotional space to see things more clearly - move closer to wisemind.

Clarity is important. There are two women in your life and that is not likely sustainable. You have choice right now on how this will turn out. However, if you stay that path you are on, the choice will likely be for others to make.

Good mental health is hard. It often involves making making wise decisions and not being overrun by our emotions.

This is a KEY issue to me. Until I read this I hadn't really been conscious that I am playing a chess match. I just played it. You are correct, I am playing chess. I don't know if she is doing the same or just behaving typical of a BPD.

There is no doubt that she finds my behaviour bullying, but I wasn't sure whether this was genuine on her behalf or simply a control mechanism. I have stopped attacking her because I have now said everything that I want to say to her. It has been met with distancing and retreat which is what I expected. But I have really stopped because I know it is futile. I know she is not going to ever see anything from my perspective and as of today, I am less emotionally engaged about it. I have played this chess match through the whole r/s as a coping mechanism. It has failed miserably.

It is interesting what you say about just accepting the affair for what it is and stop trying to elevate it to something epic. Again, to be fair to her, apart from about 6 months of the r/s, she hasn't been talking in the heightened language that I have. She often says, 'I love you' either in response to me saying it or after an argument (this is prior to the break up) as a means of getting me back onside. As we have discussed on here BPDs don't feel love in the same way as nons. This confused me for a long time but I am starting to understand it now. This is the weird thing with what is going on at the moment, I am observing her behaviour in a more detached manner. I'm almost fascinated to see if she will recycle or whether she is doing what Rayban says and lining me up for a future attempt.

I don't really feel as if I have any choices. I know what I have to do. I need to end this and sort out my marriage. I have started feeling less trapped and anguished at the lack of sex with my wife. It is probably that the addictive nature of the sex with pwBPD is waning as it is becoming a distant memory. Just like with alcohol. I have been sober for 14 years so I know how that goes. I am starting to feel more peaceful, but that is only today and may be because I have made contact with her.

As for good mental health requiring a lack of emotional intensity, I am all too aware of this. I find this the hardest thing of all to do when anguished.

And lastly, there is a values/character/boundaries issue here. Your wife, as you say, is a good women. Can you label yourself the same if you stay in this affair? Is that important to you? And what about your affair partner - if you ended up with her, would either of you ever trust each other?

I will never end up with the affair partner and NO, I would never trust her. That is one of the main reasons I walked away. And after her push/pull cycle of the last few days I trust her even less.

The denouement and the knowledge I am gaining from this forum is slowly but surely killing the fantasy. Just like the play Equus.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks HeartandWhole,

Also, stressful times like these in the UK require even more of a pause for reflection, because when we are highly stressed, we tend to reach toward what is familiar for comfort—even if it's something we know will hurt us.   Empathy

The more space you create for yourself and the more you focus on your own feelings, needs, and wants, the faster you will recover. It's really tough, because in this process we also discover things about ourselves that can be upsetting, but you can do it. Keep going. 

This is very true. I was at the site of the attacks today and it is like a war zone. I was very upset on Saturday night. She contacted me and I think she did so because she probably felt the same. In one way it was nice that she was worried about me, but as it is a BPD we are talking about, I do think she took it as a 'maintenance' opportunity.

I am trying to create space in my head. She has been living rent free there for far too long. I have been trying to evict her but she is a stubborn tenant.

[RomanticFool]

Hi onelittleladybug,

Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds difficult and painful and I identified with much of the detail. Those lies or withheld facts, are the killers for me. It's funny you should mention a ghost, because I always feel the presence of my exes husband. A bit like Therese Raquin after the couple murder Therese's husband Camille.

I have found the stool analogy very useful. I never considered that me being out of the picture may have some effect on her own marriage. It is interesting that she has contacted me three times without trying to recycle. What she is missing isn't the sex and love but the narcissistic supply that I give her. I have allowed myself to become so devalued in this situation that I forgot that me telling her how beautiful she is everyday must have some positive effect on her and therefore she must miss it when it isn't there.

I think the reason why you are struggling so intensely with the loss of your affair partner or the potential of the loss is because the r/s has been a crutch to you to keep things going. You need to redirect your attention to your actual and real life (marriage). Once you do you will relief the burden off your affair and  will be able to process things. I wouldnt be surprised that when/if you do, your feelings for this woman will reach at least some balance and no longer be so volatile and explosive.

This is something I have been wondering myself. It has been terribly painful detaching from the pwBPD, not least because she keeps contacting me and then running away again.

I think the intensity is already diminishing. I don't think it is only about not getting sex at home, I think it is to do with the level of attraction I feel for the ex. My wife is younger and more communicative, she is a much more engaging personality and has traits that I greatly admire. However, the ex is beautiful and sexy and at 60 years of age, I think she gets more and more sexy. She has had some work done, but she is an ex model and so perhaps I am blinded by her beauty. The irony of all of this is that she hates herself. She has the classic BPD dysmorphia around her self image and she is particularly brutal towards her own appearance. Perhaps this is part of her waif trait and our r/s is based on me telling her how beautiful she is in exchange for sex. That is essentially the dynamic.

Something has shifted fundamentally within me over these last few days. I am no longer looking to her for love. In fact she has been doing the push/pull since Saturday night and I am not overly bothered about it at this present moment, though that could change suddenly.  Perhaps because I now know what I'm dealing with and confident that I am not pathologising her or imagining these behaviours to cover up my own failings, the level of intensity is diminshing. I still get pangs throughout the day, but even if I imagine her in bed with somebody else, while not a pleasant thought, it doesn't make me rage.

Part of this is because she has been in a depressive mind-set ever since I've known her. I changed tack with her today and asked her how things were and she replied, 'Not good.' However, beautiful somebody is, constant negativity is not a long-lasting attractive quality and I think the whole package of the r/s is wearing me down.

What I am discovering on here is reinforcing what I already know about myself. I have issues around sex ad love addiction. That is what it is with the ex and it is just like emotional heroin.