py situation.. Not sure what to do... Please help

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So I've posted on these boards before... but I'll recap my general story with my current BPD gf.

We've been dating now for about a year and a half. She was diagnosed with BPD years before we met. Early on in the relationship there were some rough spots but 80% of it or so has really been fine and happy.

We've had some recurring issues, like how much time we spend together and how I wanted more time with friends (never happened as much as I'd liked but she's always been receptive and supportive for the most part)

The other issue was with marriage. She has wanted to get married from almost the very start. I told her I was not ready and especially not comfortable with being married before we move in together. That was still within our first year. Since then I've been more receptive to the idea and have been casually looking at rings and apartments with her. As I've taken small steps in the direction of marriage (I really was happy) she has been fine with that and seemed happy.

Things changed recently and I'm currently in sort of a crappy situation.

We are away for a vacation now in her home state for a whole week. However on the third day I made a crappy discovery.

We were at a beach and I was bringing our phones to a locker they have. Her phone buzzed and I almost dropped it. When I picked it up her messages were open and I see that she's been sending nude pics to some guy. I'm blindsided.

Then, at practically the same time that I see the message, she comes up behind me and sees me looking at her phone. She is furious (obviously) and storms off.

I feel like if it happened in a TV show or something maybe it would've been funny.

Later we're back at the hotel and hash it out. Big surprise. This sort of thing has been a trend for her in relationships. She didn't think it was real since it's a guy from the internet. She didn't think I'd find out. She likes to know that other men still find her attractive. She thinks we've been spending too much time together and feels smothered (to be fair, I've been saying essentially this to her the whole relationship). She thought I was getting bored of her. Looking for an escape. Its not me. It's her. This is just what she does. She thought she could fix it. But she can't.

She's crying and feels bad but at the same time is furious at me for reading her texts which she sees as a huge breach of trust. Obviously that's true. An ex had read her texts before, she mentioned it to me awhile back. I said I'd never do that. Yet here I was. Albeit I read it by accident.

Anyway, so we still have an entire week (now three days left). Jam packed with activities. Hanging out with her friends from home together. Family, the whole nine yards.

We've agreed to still stay together. But trust is broken on both sides. I feel blindsided and like an idiot. This week shes gone from hating herself to being nice to me to being standoffish to being mean to now everything is almost like normal but not quite.

To top it all off, rather than saying she would stop the sexting or whatever. She is continuing to do it. Her ultimatum to me was that this is who she is, flaws and all. She loves me but if we stay together I have to accept that she will continue the sexting. She agreed to set up ground rules for that.

My head is spinning. How the hell did I agree to such a $&#+ proposal? I'm just trying to get through the week at least. We are essentially stuck here together.

So really I'm trying to figure out what to do when we get back. I do still love her, but this sucks. And this week has been awful. I'm questioning a lot about our relationship obviously.

Do I just end it as soon as we're back? Do I give it some more time? Do I try to make it work and insist that she stops sexting behind my back or I'm gone or do I just end it all completely once and for all?

I've just had a terrible week and could really just use some help. Just writing it all made me feel better and gave me some perspective. This board has been so helpful to me in the past. I would really appreciate any advice. I'm dying here.

[uncleowenrip]

So I've posted on these boards before... but I'll recap my general story with my current BPD gf.

We've been dating now for about a year and a half. She was diagnosed with BPD years before we met. Early on in the relationship there were some rough spots but 80% of it or so has really been fine and happy.

We've had some recurring issues, like how much time we spend together and how I wanted more time with friends (never happened as much as I'd liked but she's always been receptive and supportive for the most part)

The other issue was with marriage. She has wanted to get married from almost the very start. I told her I was not ready and especially not comfortable with being married before we move in together. That was still within our first year. Since then I've been more receptive to the idea and have been casually looking at rings and apartments with her. As I've taken small steps in the direction of marriage (I really was happy) she has been fine with that and seemed happy.

Things changed recently and I'm currently in sort of a crappy situation.

We are away for a vacation now in her home state for a whole week. However on the third day I made a crappy discovery.

We were at a beach and I was bringing our phones to a locker they have. Her phone buzzed and I almost dropped it. When I picked it up her messages were open and I see that she's been sending nude pics to some guy. I'm blindsided.

Then, at practically the same time that I see the message, she comes up behind me and sees me looking at her phone. She is furious (obviously) and storms off.

I feel like if it happened in a TV show or something maybe it would've been funny.

Later we're back at the hotel and hash it out. Big surprise. This sort of thing has been a trend for her in relationships. She didn't think it was real since it's a guy from the internet. She didn't think I'd find out. She likes to know that other men still find her attractive. She thinks we've been spending too much time together and feels smothered (to be fair, I've been saying essentially this to her the whole relationship). She thought I was getting bored of her. Looking for an escape. Its not me. It's her. This is just what she does. She thought she could fix it. But she can't.

She's crying and feels bad but at the same time is furious at me for reading her texts which she sees as a huge breach of trust. Obviously that's true. An ex had read her texts before, she mentioned it to me awhile back. I said I'd never do that. Yet here I was. Albeit I read it by accident.

Anyway, so we still have an entire week (now three days left). Jam packed with activities. Hanging out with her friends from home together. Family, the whole nine yards.

We've agreed to still stay together. But trust is broken on both sides. I feel blindsided and like an idiot. This week shes gone from hating herself to being nice to me to being standoffish to being mean to now everything is almost like normal but not quite.

To top it all off, rather than saying she would stop the sexting or whatever. She is continuing to do it. Her ultimatum to me was that this is who she is, flaws and all. She loves me but if we stay together I have to accept that she will continue the sexting. She agreed to set up ground rules for that.

My head is spinning. How the hell did I agree to such a $&#+ proposal? I'm just trying to get through the week at least. We are essentially stuck here together.

So really I'm trying to figure out what to do when we get back. I do still love her, but this sucks. And this week has been awful. I'm questioning a lot about our relationship obviously.

Do I just end it as soon as we're back? Do I give it some more time? Do I try to make it work and insist that she stops sexting behind my back or I'm gone or do I just end it all completely once and for all?

I've just had a terrible week and could really just use some help. Just writing it all made me feel better and gave me some perspective. This board has been so helpful to me in the past. I would really appreciate any advice. I'm dying here.

[formflier]

     

First of all... .do not agree with her that YOU breached her trust.  I'll take you at your word that you were NOT snooping.  She should too. 

If she wanted her phone to be private, she could lock it.  I do.

Seriously... .if the events are accurate as you wrote them... .there is NO breach of trust.

If you are walking by a house and the shade to the window goes up... .and there is a naked woman standing there... .YOU ARE NOT A PEEPING TOM. 

Something startling happened... .and you looked.  That's the start and the end of it.

OK... enough on that.

Don't agree to any more stuff... .wait it out and get home.  Take time to think through what you want and will tolerate in a r/s.  Then tell her.  Be succinct.  No big explanations... .

If you have agreed to something you don't want to agree to.  "I made a mistake when I agreed xyz would be ok in a r/s.  I'm ok with ABC in a r/s.  If you want to do xyz, I'll respect you choice.  I understand you may need to think this through.  Can you let me know by (date)?  I'll be making some decisions for my future on that date."

Hang in there dude... .you have had a shock.  Find a way to muddle through the trip and enjoy yourself.  Then be deliberate about taking time when you get back to sort out YOUR feelings.

FF

[Red5]

Nude pics, to some other guy... .you just dodged a bullet, now that you know the truth, you better do the right thing, how does it feel to be played... .if it was me, I'd walk now, a couple lines of history, my first wife of 21 years cheated on me multiple times, in the age before "social media", .we had three kids together, I kept taking her back, but she left anyway, now I am fifty years old, and into a second marriage, to an u/BPD... .life is too short to let yourself be played, abused, what do you think your gf would do if you were the one doing this, sorry to be so "frank"... .but facts are facts, if you had not discovered this, she would have kept on doing it, think about that for a minute of two, .yeah, better to know now before you marry a woman like that, the decision has to be yours though, if you stay with her, the trust will never be restored, once a cheater, always a cheater, good luck to you... .

[DearHusband]

Let's analyze this.

She want's to continue sexting other men and she wants to keep this hidden from you by virtue of her not allowing you to see her phone. She wants you to trust that she will stay within boundaries that she sets up. She want's this even though she has shown that she doesn't have the strength to not do something (sext).

Are you really willing to accept that she will do this and that she might become dysregulated and angry at you and at that moment yield to temptation, catch a disease and pass it on to you without your knowledge? (already did?) Are you willing to accept that she could leave you for one of these sexting partners at a random time? Since it appears she wants to marry you, she is basically asking for an open marriage.

It seems like you are entertaining this, so let's continue. This arrangement doesn't feel quite equitable, so how could it be made more so.

Possibility 1: Both of you are free to flirt with others and both of you keep your phones private.

Possibility 2: Both of you are completely free to pursue other people but will still be "married".

Possibility 3. She is free to flirt, but you get to see her phone.

Would any of those arrangements be more acceptable? No? Remember, you can't change her. She has to want to change and she doesn't. You can change you. Do you want to change so that this becomes all right to you?

[Notwendy]

I agree that you did not snoop. It happened at the moment you didn't expect it look for it. She may accuse you of snooping to deal with her own shame/anger at getting caught, but that doesn't make it true.

Although this is a shock, you can be grateful that you learned this information before you were married or with children. Now, you can make a decision about this information instead of it going on behind your back.

The time to make a decision is not when we are feeling emotionally shocked. The good news is that you have time. There is no wedding coming up. You can take all the time you need to process this.

Speaking of decisions, I mean, any big life decision- to make a permanent commitment or to break up, to move in together or not, to have a child or not. ( which can be known to happen at emotional times).

You may need some help and time to yourself to think clearly. Someone objective like a counselor or therapist can help. Sexual attraction can cloud our thinking. Time alone to process is important. This doesn't mean breaking up, it means time to process your own thoughts.

Since you are considering marriage, it is important to consider this in both short and long term situations and according to your values. If fidelity is one of them- for a wife, and the possible mother of your children, then consider this in the long run. If honesty and trust is important to you, consider this too.

Consider your feelings- this bothers you. If you decide you are OK with her sexting, are you being true to yourself?

[uncleowenrip]

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond. It really means a lot and has helped me deal with this.

As for the snooping accusation. Yes she doesn't take my word for it that it was an accident her messages were open. There's no way for me to prove otherwise. I guess it's more advantageous to her to think I was snooping. She says even if I saw a message I still consciously clicked in the thread to read the whole thing. I don't get why that matters. Even if I was lying about not snooping I don't feel that changes things too much. She still did what she did.

Right now everything is mostly fine. She's talking about future plans, holding my hand ,etc So now what to do when we return...

Typically we spend every night together unless I'm away on business or something. I'm thinking when we get back, I will say I need some time to myself and will spend the night at home for either one or two days.

I think my course of action is clear but I do want time to think more...

My concern is probably how and when to go about it. I'm expecting a lot of scorn and anger but I'm not sure. When we reached our "new arrangement" I agreed to it with the caveat that this hurts me, I would try to see if I could be OK with it, if I'm not then I would tell her and we would have to reassess.

I know she will bring the snooping accusation out at me, but I know she also feels bad about what she did. She knows she let me and herself down. She's trying to hide it, maybe masking it through villainzing me. I don't really care anymore. Our relationship was so great most of the time, but this is too shocking and too much. As Red5 said life is too short... .

Are there any tips you may have yourself or articles on how to go about having that conversation with a BPD? How to frame things? I honestly have no idea what to expect from her, anger, resignation, coldness, or even violence/self harm is in play based on her past...

[formflier]

  I'm expecting a lot of scorn and anger

And it's ok and her right to do this.  I would expect you not to listen or participate.  She gets her feelings... .you get yours.  It really is that simple.

When you get back.

"Hey babe... .I'm sure you would agree we've both been thinking a lot about our relationship and what we want.  I'm going to take a few days to think this through.  Can we make plans to talk on (insert date a week from now)?

blather blather blather... (essentially something other than answering the question about plans)

"It would mean a lot to me if we could get back to my question about making plans on (date). "

blather blather

"Ok... I'm going to go now.  Please text me an answer about the date we can get together" 

walk away...

Go be kind to yourself.

FF

[ArtistGuy70]

Nude pics and texting. And you probably didn't catch her the first time she did it, my friend. Cheating or possible cheating. Lies.

Get out now is my advice. Be happy you did not marry her or have children with her (I did that one). Move on. You deserve better. Focus on yourself. Why are you willing to put up with certain things she is doing? Are you afraid of losing her? Of being alone? Do you see her actions as a reflection of what you are or are not doing as her boyfriend?

Leave and focus on yourself. Be kind to yourself.

[Grey Kitty]

This is more relationship advice than BPD-specific advice, but I wanted to throw it out at you, especially as you haven't mentioned her being diagnosed with BPD, at least in this post.

This sort of thing has been a trend for her in relationships. She didn't think it was real since it's a guy from the internet. She didn't think I'd find out. She likes to know that other men still find her attractive. She thinks we've been spending too much time together and feels smothered (to be fair, I've been saying essentially this to her the whole relationship). She thought I was getting bored of her. Looking for an escape. Its not me. It's her. This is just what she does. She thought she could fix it. But she can't.

In your shoes, it is hard to trust her, because she DID hide this from you, and thus it is hard to figure out how much more she is hiding from you... .but given that she did express some real sincerity with this, here's what seems to me to be the best-case scenario for your r/s with her:

She's really insecure, and needs affirmation that other guys find her attractive... .and she sexts with them over the internet but wouldn't actually cheat with anybody in person. (Q: Does she flirt with other guys in person?)

Are you OK with her doing this? Can you accept this as a 'harmless' outlet for her?

She's already said she can't stop it. Believe her. Don't ask her to do what she told you she can't do.

So accept this and consider how you can make a r/s work with her.

A: Accept that she will do this kind of online flirting, agree with her on what the boundaries which are acceptable... .and ask her for access to her phone/email/dating profile/etc. so you can verify that she stays within these boundaries.

As in trust, but verify. Trust her that she won't cross her own lines, by staying in a relationship with her... .and ask her to help you verify and prove it.

If you can do this, try to have a serious conversation with her about what her limits are, what she is willing to do with these anonymous/unimportant guys on the internet... .and what she isn't willing to do with them.

Obviously the answer you would like most is "NOTHING" but that isn't her answer, and she's told you that she cannot honestly offer you that answer. So see if you can understand what her answer is, and see if you can meet her in the middle somewhere.

If you can accept that she will be doing some of this, she might be able to work with your fears that she would actually cheat with another guy, and be able to get past her anger/defensiveness about your snooping.

[uncleowenrip]

Thanks again for all your advice.

 -@greykitty -

So she was diagnosed with BPD years before we met. She came out with it pretty early on in our relationship.

The question of whether or not I'm ok with her 'harmless' outlet is a good one. That was one we agreed to sort of leave up in the air.

The boundaries we set were that it remains just online, nothing real. And it is not with anyone that we know in person. She also offered up the promise that she'd make sure not to let me find out.

How cool am I actually with that? I told her that I couldn't guarantee I would be happy, but that I wanted to try.

Of course the context of us being on vacation together for a week may have influenced my decision to give it a go. But it's true. I did want to try. I love her. This whole thing came completely out of left field. Things seemed so great and she said it was nothing wrong with the relationship.

I asked what I did wrong. She cried and said "nothing". She said that I was "perfect".

The sexting just didn't seem to make any sense. Why throw all of this away if we were both happy? Even now things are almost back to normal with us and it all seems good when we're together... .but clearly things weren't/aren't as great as they seemed... .

She said this was part of who she is. She said maybe I love her for who I wanted her to be and not who she really is.

Maybe that's the truth?

Anyway, I've had all of this week to "try this out"... .

When she texts on her phone my mind does wander, when she goes to the bathroom for a long time, my mind wonders if she may be sending nude pics, when she went shopping and bought make up I wondered why (she doesn't typically wear make up). When she talks of making plans of a vacation by herself, that doesn't sound encouraging.

I don't like being so stupid paranoid but I honestly can't even bring myself to be depressed about it anymore. The comments here have helped immensely in putting things in perspective.

I know that I can't handle this sort of thing long term. It's stupid, disrespectful and unfair.

I've made the most of things and managed to actually have an OK time. For the most part, the past two days have been good. It's been almost like nothing happened between us. Still, there's something lurking beneath the surface obviously. I'm ready for the week to be over and move on with the next stage of wherever this leads...

I like your suggestion about being able to verify. I even told her my main problem isn't necessarily her flirting on the internet, but the secrecy and lying. Openness there would help a lot on my end I think...

I'm not sure she will go for that, though. She's locked up her phone even more with security and won't let me touch it. I think she does most of the deeds through snapchat too so the messages go away after they're sent. If I had access to verify she could just move exclusively to that I guess.

I will try to work up some options in my head on what I would be OK with in a relationship and take it to her. Maybe we can find a middle ground. Maybe we can't. Maybe she doesn't care anymore. Maybe it's not even worth it.

Sorry for rambling. I've got loads of time on my hands.  We leave tomorrow. Venting helps. Thanks for listening.

[Grey Kitty]

She said this was part of who she is. She said maybe I love her for who I wanted her to be and not who she really is.

Side note: It is not just who you wanted her to be; it is also who she pretended to be, or at least let you believe she was. And given that it isn't 'normal' to do that sort of thing when you are are in a serious relationship, it is on her to tell you, well before talking about things like marriage!

I know that I can't handle this sort of thing long term. It's stupid, disrespectful and unfair.

Sometimes relationships end just because two people want things that aren't compatible.

One lives and works in Florida, the other in Oregon, and neither wants a long-distance relationship, or wants to move.

One wants children, the other doesn't.

Or in this case, one needs the freedom to flirt with guys online, and the other feels hurt and disrespected, and can't really accept it.

Sometimes you have to break up, even if you love somebody, because you don't want the same thing in a relationship.

If this is the case, you owe it to her to tell her you don't think you are compatible, and end it.

[uncleowenrip]

Hey all,

Thanks again for all of your comments in this thread to help me work through all of this. It's been awhile but I figured it might be appropriate to update on where things ended up, for my own catharsis if nothing else.

Anyway, here's the recap... .

We got back from the trip and gave each other more space. It was part of what we agreed on in the first place: 1. More space and less co-dependence 2. she'd have freedom to sext with other men online.

I enjoyed the space quite a bit, something I'd been pushing for the whole time, and it allowed me room to think. I still had a problem with the sexting other men and I didn't broach the topic as early as maybe I should've. Nights we did spend together her phone would be going off constantly and nights we spent apart she'd send me sexy pictures I assumed were just recycled from earlier... .It did really bother me... .

2 weeks in I finally couldn't take it anymore. I took both Grey Kitty and formflier's advice.

A few days ago I told her that I was OK with more space and independence but I was not ok with her sexting other men. If she wanted to continue with that I'd respect her choice... .We're now no longer together.

It was a sad break up and unlike any I've had before. Honestly, part of this I think has to do with BPD but I'm not sure how tied in that really is. I told her throughout our relationship I'd constantly compromised to keep the relationship going, and that this was too much. I couldn't do it on my own. To keep it going I needed her help.

She took responsibility for her actions. She seriously considered the idea of stopping the sexting other men. She didn't want to lose this. Still, she also admitted that she needed a place for "that" to go. She said that she thought that she needed to grow up. She felt she couldn't be the girl I needed her to be yet. I'm 30, she's 25. I know that has a lot to do with everything too... .

So it's all wrapped up now. I don't feel too great. I wish we could stay together. I told her I loved her. She said she loved me too. I said this is stupid, she said she know. We cried and hugged each other and then I left. 

I guess the timing is just off for us? I guess that's life and I have to get over it and move on.

Part of me wants to try and get back together but I also know that's probably the wrong call. She now has freedom and pure independence, and I can't offer that in a relationship. She was my best friend and I just didn't want to lose this. Like I said I was thinking marriage. I really liked the life we had together... .I guess she was just too young to know what she really wanted. My expectations were unrealistic. I thought it could work because she'd already grown up so much from when we first started dating. The need for attention from other men seems like a BPD thing, but she has self awareness at least, I'm not sure it's just BPD alone that killed this.  I feel worse than I did back on our vacation, now that it's finally over. I guess I need to move on... .

Anyway, that's the conclusion. I will still see her one more time to give her some of her stuff back. We haven't talked at all since the break up six days ago. That kills me... .but I guess I should give her space... I wonder if we can still at least stay friends, it feels weird to be so close to someone and then suddenly cut all ties... .

[Grey Kitty]

  Tough choice.

You did what you could. She did what she could. It isn't looking like that's enough to make this relationship work. There's no getting around it being sad and that it will be hard on you.

[formflier]

   

And you stood up for yourself and your needs, made those clear to your partner and it appears each of you respected the choices of the other.

What is something extra special that you can do for yourself this weekend?



FF

[insideout77]

uncleowenrip:

Good for you for standing up for yourself!

Just an observation. BPD's  will often resort to the Straw-man. They essentially try to shift immediately to an argument they know they can win. The fact that you did or didn't snoop is totally irrelevant. The issue was the cheating you discovered when you snooped and this is the only point. Be aware of this in-case you need to encounter it again. People who are caught with their hands in the cookie jar often play this game.

[uncleowenrip]

Thanks all. The comments help. It's getting better with time, as expected. I know that I'm leaving behind a lot of stress and all that, but it's still difficult. We'll see if we remain friends... .

Anyway, thanks to you all for commenting and helping me through everything. At times, it was a tumultuous year+ with her. This board has really helped my mental health and given me perspective. I really can't tell you much I appreciate it.

[Grey Kitty]

  How are you doing?

Are you still staying out of contact with her?

When ANY romantic relationship ends (even without BPD or other mental illness!) it is normal and healthy to take some time where you avoid contact with each other to adjust to the "new normal" of not having this person as a lover/partner, and letting your heart catch up to that reality that your head knows about. Seeing/talking to them is just too painful for a while.

You also may find yourself at risk of trying to make it work again if you do get in touch with her, especially for a few weeks or months. Many members here choose NC at first to protect themselves from the risk of a recycle.

Hopefully over time you will be able to be in contact with her, more as a friend. That said, she may not be capable of doing that in a healthy way. Or she may not be willing to try.

[Panshekay]

I think this is something ForeverDad says... ."trust them the very first time they show you who they really are". As hard as it may seem now it will only get harder if you marry her and heaven forbid have children. Take some time and reallly look at it. Read everything you can on this site. If you have misgivings now I can promise you it wont get any better... .only a billion times worse.

[uncleowenrip]

Hey all,

Sorry I missed your replies to me. Thank you very much for asking how I'm holding up. I can't say enough how great the support on this board.

Things were rough at first, but at this point now it's been almost two months post-breakup. The last time I saw her she was talking about her new "friends" mostly and sort of ignoring me and texting on her phone the whole time. That hurt and made me really mad. I haven't talked to her for over a month now I believe.

I will say going NC has helped tremendously and time does heal all wounds, though of course not completely. I can't say I don't think of her still, but I'm never pining to have her back, mostly just memories cropping up and feeling anger at either her or myself.

I do wonder sometimes if she will contact me if things don't pan out with my replacement, like I hear of on these boards. I wonder how I should react if she does.

I still talk with her roommate as we became friends over the course of that relationship. The past few days I've been house sitting for him and feeding his pets, as both of them are away. So that has, obviously, been a bit strange being in that house again. 

I've also been seeing someone else for a few weeks, so that has actually helped spur me to move on and put things in perspective.

All in all, things have gotten better with time. I know she has her internal struggles and I can't imagine what it's like to struggle with those demons. But I really don't think I ever want to get to a point of even being friends. I don't like what she did to me, and I think I deserve better, either in a friendship or relationship. I wish the worst for her. Maybe one day I won't. That's sort of where I'm at now.