I'm ready to learn the tools VI

[Oncebitten]

Is it guilt that brings out the rage?  She is out with friends today, having fun... great... no problem.

I simply ask about coming to see her today... .she says no wont work today... .why didnt you say something sooner... .no big deal in my mind, thought if it worked out great if not no problem... .she said we needed to plan stuff and make sure it worked out for both of us... .I said ok we can plan something later... .she then said that we didnt need to plan things nothing needed to be definitive  and we would just see each other when we see each other... .? Im confused one min we need to plan things and 5 mins later no plans? WTH

Does she feel guilty bc she is having fun without me?  I am not sure what I did to have her mad at me.

Can I come see you today? No wont work today.  OK another time then.

How does that inspire anger?
Mod note: this topic is a continuation of this thread: Part V

[formflier]

Don't overthink this... .

Minimize time figuring out "how" her mind works.  Ultimately we will never know.

Focus on principles.  Live your life...

"Hey... .I'm heading to the Zoo today.  They have a new elephant exhibit.  It would mean a lot to me if you would join me... ."

Either way... .YOU GO.  Take pictures... .live your life... make it part of social media... .all of that. 

Another way to view the principle.  Don't let your life be dependent on her choices.  She WILL be very flighty and contradictory.

FF

[Notwendy]

Does she feel guilty bc she is having fun without me?  I am not sure what I did to have her mad at me.


You don't have to do anything for her to be mad at you. Her emotions may have nothing to do with you.

She may or may not feel guilty. We can't know what she is feeling unless she says it.

She sounds like an "in the moment" person. Sure, she wants you around sometimes, whenever, whatever, but it seems she can also be quite fine without you- and enjoy herself when you are not there too.

For you though, she seems to be your only source of happiness. She's on your mind constantly. You want to be with her as much as possible, and you are not happy when you are not.

I think others have mentioned that it seems she wants to keep things casual. Just because one minute she wants you more, wants to make plans, this doesn't mean not being casual and that she also wants her freedom to do what she wants to do, even see other people.

She may have BPD but it seems to me she is being open about where she is with this.

we didnt need to plan things nothing needed to be definitive  and we would just see each other when we see each other.

If she says this, and it is consistent with her actions- then this is an indicator of how she wants things to be. She may say differently, but that is not consistent with her actions.

Maybe there is nothing to fix here. If this is what she wants, your choice is do you accept her terms or not? It seems that you are searching for some way to make her different, but maybe she doesn't want this to be different.

[Grey Kitty]

I simply ask about coming to see her today... .she says no wont work today... .why didnt you say something sooner

My suggestion: Take "no" for an answer and try again later.

She might be saying "no" because she already has plans she doesn't want to change.

She might be saying "no" because she doesn't feel like seeing you... .and is trying to be tactful/gentle, and giving you some sort of excuse instead of saying that directly. And perhaps the "doesn't feel like seeing you" aspect is something that is true right now, but even she knows it won't be true tomorrow or perhaps in an hour and a half, and she (wisely!) doesn't want to completely reject you so she can spend time with you later when she does feel like it.

If she really wants to see you, she can make that clear. At this point she could have said "How about Thursday night or next weekend?"

She didn't. You didn't take the hint.

Im confused one min we need to plan things and 5 mins later no plans? WTH

Because you didn't take "no" as "no", but instead tried to work your way around it, and forced her to throw up a few other "no"'s to block you.

Dude... .next time, take "no" as "no" accept it, and make it easy for her to end the conversation which she probably wants to do. If she tries instead to keep you engaged with her, you will know.

And feel free to ask again later if you want to pursue this. She may feel differently later. In fact it is pretty much guaranteed she will feel differently, although whether that will be a "yes" remains to be seen. Just give her a day or better yet a few before you come back again.

[Oncebitten]

GK


I took no as no... .she said no and I said ok... .and I was done with it... .she then proceeded to ask why I hadn't brought it up earlier
... told her it was a spur of the moment thing... .wrong answer
... I was then told that she didn't matter enough to make plans for... .I didnt continue to push

[formflier]

... .she then proceeded to ask why I hadn't brought it up earlier

Hopefully you can think about "cues" she was giving that this WAS NOT a real question.  She was looking for a fastball to smack out of the park.

FF

[Oncebitten]

Hi all


Havent been on here in quite a while.  Frankly because its been really good.  Short version of my story, rocky back and forth long distance relationship.  Broke up and got back together more times than I can count.  For the past month and a half its been great.  Little to no fighting, seeing one another on a regular basis, truly enjoying each other and our relationship.  Haven't had to deal with the ex, that seems to be over for good.  Even gave her a ring, she said she was so happy, so ready to start a life with me.  We were starting to make long term plans, and figure out how to be together in the same city.  She takes a trip with friends over the weekend and comes home and decides we can't be together.  She wants to be friends but the relationship is over.  No discussing, no talking, just done.  I plead my case and she says lets talk about it later, she picked up some bug and has been sick all week.  I press to much and she gets agitated, still flips back and forth on how much she loves me and needs me.  Yesterday she is feeling really ill, and just wants to talk no arguing no discussion of the r/s and I say ok, she says we will talk about it next week once I get to feeling better.  No problem I say.  Somehow I become part of... ."no one cares about me, you don't care about me, you are selfish just like everyone else. You only want me around for what I can do for you".  I maintained my composure and assured her that I loved her, and cared about her and wanted her to get better.  She said all I wanted to do was fight as she proceeded to scream at me, even though I remained calm.  we talked briefly again yesterday evening and she seemed better and calmer.  Just talked again this morning, and she said she didnt want to talk to me because she didnt want to fight.  I assured her that I would not talk about the r/s all I wanted was to check on her and keep her company since she didnt feel well.  I talked for probably 10 mins straight telling her different things with little to no response, other than some snide comment about no one caring about her.  I decided that I wasn't going to sit through the silent treatment on the phone so I said I would let her rest and would check on her later in the day.  She said fine, I told her I loved her and wanted her better and we hung up.  She called right back and proceeded to scream at me because this is what I do, if she doesnt entertain me then I dont want to hangout with her.  Granted when we are on the phone she probably does 60%+ of the talking, thats her, and thats me I tend to be a quieter person... .so now I have been told not to call or text and check up on her she will get a hold of me when she feels better... .which I suppose is an improvement from yesterdays I never want to speak to you again.

Am I being punished because she loves me and she hasnt gotten what she needs from anyone else? I cant be there to take care of her, I would like to be... .offered to come take care of her, to which she told me I was real sh*tty at.  She would just take care of herself like she always does bc no one cares about her.  Am I just on the wrong end of a pity party?  I really have no idea what to do.  Our relationship is over and she wont talk about it bc, she is sick.  I can't just talk to her as a friend bc... .well I really dont know, she just wont talk to me.

Advice? 

[Oncebitten]

Update:

Went from bad to worse... .I will talk to you when i feel good turned in to an email on no contact ever again... .number blocked... .just painful, when you love someone so much and you just want to make them happy and they push you out the door bc they cant get a hold of their own emotions

[Meili]

 

She takes a trip with friends over the weekend and comes home and decides we can't be together.  She wants to be friends but the relationship is over.  No discussing, no talking, just done.  I plead my case and she says lets talk about it later, she picked up some bug and has been sick all week.  I press to much and she gets agitated, still flips back and forth on how much she loves me and needs me.  Yesterday she is feeling really ill, and just wants to talk no arguing no discussion of the r/s and I say ok, she says we will talk about it next week once I get to feeling better.  No problem I say.  Somehow I become part of... ."no one cares about me, you don't care about me, you are selfish just like everyone else. You only want me around for what I can do for you".  I maintained my composure and assured her that I loved her, and cared about her and wanted her to get better.  She said all I wanted to do was fight as she proceeded to scream at me

Can you see how some (or most) of that can be invalidating?

She tells you how she's feeling... .you plead your case.

She tells you that she'll talk to you about it later... .you press too hard.

She tells you that she doesn't think that you care... .you tell her that she wrong by "assuring her that you love and care about her."

[Oncebitten]

I know i can be invalidating, and i see that i was... .but she completely shocked me and didnt care... .has never cared about how I felt
Its over and I am done trying and I dont want her friendship either.

[patientandclear]

OB--you know she is going to change her position as soon as she feels you slipping away. Won't you also then change your position? It's been going like that for a long time. This (her stance that it's over and your reactive stance that it's over) is part of your cycle.

I understand your powerful reaction to her cutting you off. It hurts. But this is how it goes with her. You can practically put it in your calendar in advance. If you engage with her, this is part of it. Your surprise and hurt is flowing from non-acceptance that this is the case.

You don't have to be in a relationship where this happens. But in this relationship, this happens.

[Oncebitten]

PnC


I know in a sense you are right, I guess she just wants to control the relationship.  Right now we are on a break which she deemed necessary, she hopes that it will help her move past her distrust of me or at least set things in order between us.  Not sure that this is what we need but we have tried everything else so we shall see what happens.

[Skip]

For the past month and a half its been great.  Little to no fighting, seeing one another on a regular basis, truly enjoying each other and our relationship.

I think its good that you had 30 straight days of tings going well. I would encourage you to post in the good times and not just the bad. In the good times is when we have the most influence on the path of the relationship... .

Even gave her a ring, she said she was so happy, so ready to start a life with me.  We were starting to make long term plans, and figure out how to be together in the same city.  She takes a trip with friends over the weekend and comes home and decides we can't be together. She wants to be friends but the relationship is over

Isn't this the mirror image or the last recycles. The conflict ends, you make progress, you push hard for commitment, she backs away.

You only want me around for what I can do for you".  I maintained my composure and assured her that I loved her, and cared about her and wanted her to get better... .

And this response, historically has been invalidating to her and the push and pull starts.

[Oncebitten]

Skip

I try, to validate to speak up when things are good and bad... .but I always come up short.  I hate that her first reaction is to bolt to quit.  Something triggered her to think about last summer... .i asked what happened she told me and then proceeded to blame me bc I haven't been proactive, enough with the issues I created
She is tired and cant do it anymore... .so she quits and walks out of my life... .again

[formflier]

I try, to validate to speak up when things are good and bad... .but I always come up short. 

I'm going to guess, based on reading through the entries on this post, that you would be better served focusing LESS on validating her and MORE on avoiding invalidation.

How do you think you are doing on not invalidating?

i asked what happened she told me and then proceeded to blame me bc I haven't been proactive, enough with the issues I created

This is pitching her a fastball for a dysfunctional reaction.  Can you see that?

My guess is you guys rarely agree on facts or responsibility for things, so what good comes from asking? 

If you feel compelled to ask, likely better to ask her a question about her emotions.  "That must have been troubling, how did you feel?"  Very open ended... if she clarifies a "validation target" then it would likely be a good time to validate.  If not, be supportive but don't "shoot" at a target you can't see clearly.

She is tired and cant do it anymore... .so she quits and walks out of my life... .again

Very likely this pattern will continue.  Continued use and improvement of tools will likely take the edge off, but the "again" comment leads me to believe that this is a core pattern for her.  That's really he issue to work on, not yours.

Once you are confident you are not "inflaming" this issue for her, leave her to manage the rest of it.

How many times has she  "walked out".

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I try, to validate to speak up when things are good and bad... .but I always come up short. 

Validation is subtle and hard to do. It takes practice. Hopefully you will get better at it as you practice.

If it *NEVER* works for you, or goes badly ~80% of the time or more, give us a specific situation (with dialog and non-verbal cues in detail) leading up to, and continuing 'till things go badly so we can offer pointers and direction--what you are doing clearly isn't helping.

I hate that her first reaction is to bolt to quit.

Yeah, that is hard. It is also who she is. Try to accept that it will happen. Again and again and again. (And after running away, she will come back again.)

Your fear of it, and your reaction to it is harming your r/s as much as her action is, though. Accepting that this is who she is and what she does won't make you like it... .but it will help you stop making things worse when she does it.

[Skip]

your reaction to it is harming your r/s as much as her action is, though.

I think so, too. There are lots of signs that you are engulfing her - going faster and further than she is comfortable. Then she shuts down.

You only want me around for what I can do for you". 

You are not hearing this. You are often pushing her to be committed at a level above that of which she is comfortable.

I maintained my composure and assured her that I loved her, and cared about her and wanted her to get better... .

I think when someone asks for "space", when they are pushing back on engulfment, this is too much. Often it is better to just agree and back off without making engulfing statements.

[Oncebitten]

FF

She has walked out more times than I can count

GK
I am very aware that my reaction causes as much damage as anything... .but in those moments I panic and then once she smells fear she attacks  and the conversation gets out of hand.
Everything from last june is so fuzzy at this point... .and she still wants to rehash it all .
I can vaguely remember what I said but I am expected to remember what the other woman said and interpret how she felt... .on top of that I have to hear all of my gfs theories on what it meant to me and how I felt

[Lucky Jim]

Hey OB,

Sorry to hear what you're going through, though by now you know it runs with the territory.

What makes you think things will play out differently this time?

I echo patientandclear: you seem surprised to discover that it's a rough ride, though that's what you signed up for, right?

LJ

[Oncebitten]

Hey LJ long time... .

Im not surprised its a rough ride, I am shocked that she is still pulling this we are done Im never speaking to you again crap... my fear everytime this happens is that she means it... .

We got engaged everything was headed in the right direction she was making wedding plans... .just really good and then this just sucks she took the ring off chucked in a drawer and now we havent talked for a couple days... .and I will probably hear from her in a few more if I can suck it up and not try calling her.

[Grey Kitty]

She has walked out more times than I can count
... .
but in those moments I panic and then... .

One thing which helped me with my fear was to think about what I was really afraid of, and consider it at a time when I wasn't overwhelmed by the fear and panic.

I'm guessing you are afraid she will leave.

And consider what you have to fear about it. It isn't a question of if she will leave or not. It is a question of when the next time she does it will be. She WILL leave.

And also remember--she's done it so many times you've lost count. And what you may of forgotten in your panic is that you've survived every single one of them to date.

It might help your visceral fear a bit if you remind yourself that she has left, she will do it again, and you will survive it. And thus far, she's come back each time as well... .you have no good reason to doubt that she will return the next time too.

[Oncebitten]

GK

Yes I try and tell myself that... .even though she says that this time she means it... why should this one be any different.  PatientandClear told me along time ago... .you provide her with a lot, stop buying into the idea that she is gone, she wont give up what you provide easily... .I should really listen to her... .she is a wise woman and is very right.  Despite what my gf says... .I have never truly failed her and I have never left her.  I have given her everything she needs and then some... .who gives that up if they truly love you?

[Oncebitten]

Well we are back to lets be friends and just hang out in this space for a while, no pressure, no labels, no pressure of future plans... .and see where that gets us... .she says that this is easier and I should just trust her... .that this will all be ok

[Skip]

Oncebitten, you only post when you are in conflict with your on again/off again girlfriend... .why not get involved when things are status quo and why not move beyond trying to get her to "commit" and talk about how to have a better relationship with her.

You keep doing the same thing and getting the result... .maybe its time for something different.

[Oncebitten]

Skip

I have tried to talk to her about how to improve things and usually if we are in a good place i get blamed for bringing it up and ruining the good, if i talk to her about it when its bad its too little to late... .if I point out i wanted to have the talk when its good  I should have wanted it months ago, if I bring up old conversations all I do is throw it in her face... .i dont mean to be mean but what the hell is left to do?

She wanted to be just friends and see what happened, I said ok and over the course of a couple weeks we slid back towards a relationship she asked if i noticed i said yes and she said well we can figure it out later... .later in the day something triggers a thought and she goes back to last year... .says she needs to go to call her later... .i call and check on her, say lets just discuss this bc we arent just friends... .we have a fight about the same thing we always have even though we are just friends.  And thats my fault bc I didnt stop us from sliding back to being in a relationship.
Everything is my fault, and I dont want jusy friends.
I want a relationship with the woman i love.

[formflier]

Everything is my fault, and I dont want jusy friends.
I want a relationship with the woman i love.

Are you likely going to be able to get what you want from this r/s?

FF

[Notwendy]

OB, I think you do have a relationship with the woman you love. This is it.

I also think you want this relationship to be different. But it is what it is- as the two of you interact this way.

The push-pull is part of it. It creates a longing, a reuniting and then a push when things get to a certain point.

This mimics a drug addiction - possibly for both of you. The high, the let down, the craving, the high again. Love and romance are feel good emotions and this stimulates the same feel good chemicals in your brain that drugs can- only drugs are way more intense. Drama in a relationship also makes these feelings intense.

You crave her, and can't seem to feel settled without her, just like an addiction. And when she does come around after you feeling the craving and being down, that must feel so good. It would be great to stay there. But this pattern of push pull repeats itself.

A relationship without this drama is not as intense. I understand when people say this is the most intense love they have for a person with BPD- a connection they don't feel with others. Romantic relationships with less drama are more of a steady love, a comfortable love. Sure they have some issues, some ups and downs but not to this extent.

IMHO I think OB if this is the woman you want, then this is the relationship you have- and if you can ride the waves knowing that this is a pattern that may not be something you can change, it may feel better for you. If you don't want this kind of relationship it may take some change on your part- decide you don't want it, be less reactive to her patterns ( which may risk ending it on her part) or choose someone who doesn't repeat these patterns.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

Well we just had it out again.  And are back to not talking.  She cant seem to let go of the past one bit.  I really don't know how to get her to move past this.  I love her and want to be with her.  She always demanded that I do something but all of my suggestions are met with a 100 reasons why this wont work and that wont work.

[Notwendy]

OB, if you think about it, these are her feelings. If she can't get over it, then she can't. It seems you have done all you can or know to do to "fix" her feelings, but is this working?

I don't think we can fix someone else's feelings- only our own. We also can't change the past. What you did is done, you have apologized, tried to make repairs. The next step is in her court.

You've been in this place how many times? You keep trying to do what it takes to "fix" her bad feelings about this and here you are- again. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.

Or maybe you want the same result. There is a certain security in doing the same thing over and over again- as the result is  likely to be the same. You are both doing the same steps over and over again. There is a certain comfort in doing what is familiar.

It is risky to do something different- but then there is the possibility of different results. This is scary. The result might be losing the relationship, or it might be that given the task of choosing to get over this or not puts  the responsibility for her feelings with her, which it actually is- only she can choose to manage them.

But this step is very scary as it comes with a risk. The step is to actually validate her feelings - by trying not to fix them. Trying to fix them gives her the message that it isn't OK with you for her to feel this way. You don't want her to feel this way but she feels what she feels. So you say "Honey, I hear you. I realize that this is very hard for you to get over and it is upsetting you so much you don't want to speak to me. Although I wish we could move past this, I realize that you can't and so I accept your wish to not speak to me further, and wish you well" and that puts the ball in her court. It doesn't say you don't want the relationship, but it accepts that she doesn't ( at the moment) and leaves it up to her.

[formflier]

pwBPD seem to have trouble letting go of hurts.  

I don't understand it, but I know it is true.

My wife will mention an issue... .from years ago and you would think it happened yesterday.  And not just about me... but any sort of slight.

I used to try to explain to her how much better to leave the past ... .in the past.

Didn't work.  Now... .I simply​ don't discuss past hurts.  She gets to react however she likes.

FF